BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

Thuis morning started with an announcement that the Government is being forced to reconsider it's first come-first tested policy for the frozen emergency scheme,
Now the news that the cabinet are divided on whether the interests of the people people should be given priority over big business
Let's hope Scummings doesn't start frog-marching dissidents our again - that's all the UK needs
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former, the commonality being time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, because they are much better qualified to interpret the scientific advice provided.....................not!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM

meaningless bullshit
"And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, "
As the Tories are operating a dictatorship and sacking everybody who doesn't agre with their leaders they are totally responsible for everything that happen
Labour, Lib DEms, Grreens, SNP - totally irrelevant
The only 'others' involved are those the bribed with bung - DUP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

Just one salient point Jim, Johnson does not need the DUP backing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM

The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related
The perscon making this claim was saying they were and choices had to be made, five minures ago - not even singing from his own hymn-sheet

When all this is over, Parliament with enter into a several year battle on the details of leaving Europe
Considering the length of time and the bloodletting it took to get this far, not a happy state of affairs to a fractured country with a sup staring it in the face
Happy Days most certainly aren't Here Again
The system is broken beyond repair and needs replacing - the people cannot be asked to carry the can back for this mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:58 PM

Bonzo, posters on this thread are at last trying to hold intelligent conversation, without trolling, flaming, or abuse. Even Iains is conducting himself with the appropriate level of decorum.

Please don’t spoil things by behaving like a big daft kid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Iains appears to be confused on this one:
Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former,
Either they are related, or they are not. You can't argue it both ways in a single paragraph.

Jim is correct The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related although I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it.

Lockdown is reducing the income of many people, meaning they have less to spend, and so the circulation effect of money reduces turnover and profits.
Many businesses are closed (temporarily at least) and are providing neither goods nor services. Neither are they generating profits for their owners, or taxes for the country.
The Government (using our money, or freshly 'created' money) is supporting both the above groups, being a cost to the country which will not see a matching benefit, apart from 1, keeping more people alive, 2, preventing an even more serious crash as those who are not working run out of funds.

For the three reasons above I agree with Jim that there is an inextricable link between the lockdown, and harm to the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:12 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote."

Sorry, BWM, but this comment doesn't represent "decorum." I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't accept the election result. Not only that, there is a glaring non seq in the first eleven words. It's not debate, John. It's him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

So do like I did, and ignore it. Every time you react, he wins.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:32 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.
There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.
One directly impacts the other. In that sense they are directly related.
The only way to avoid swamping the NHS is by lockdown, this automatically contracts the economy.
Testing is much vaunted by the media hacks and Labour but is its importance overplayed? It gives a status at a particular moment in time.
It can distinguish between those infected, not infected, have been infected with a questionable degree of precision. The only truly accurate figures are for rates of hospitalisation. The only reasonably accurate data for planning purposes is the daily infection rate, but how much is based on testing and how much on hospitalisation? One set of experts are doom merchants, others call for easing up on segregation. I suspect Dominic Cummins can serve a vital role sorting through the chaf and determining a coherant way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:24 PM

Well, John, perhaps to confirm his alleged new level of decorum, you could ask who he means when he claims that there are those who don't accept the election result. I haven't seen anyone here predicating an argument on that basis, despite his provocative insinuation. Read that post again. The election result pissed me off hugely, but, along with everyone else I know, on Mudcat or not, I accept that result. Same old, same old. This leopard hasn't changed his spots. You just watch. And you didn't exactly ignore him when you praised his alleged decorum.

Let's not fall out, but let's not be complacent either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:47 PM

"I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it."
If one section of the Government are saying the lock-down should be eased and another (led by Bad Boris says the oppose - you have a divided Government calling for National unity in the middle of a major crisis - not only split against each other but split in what they are demanding and how they are behaving themselves
A three-way split maybe ?
It has already been argued by Boris's acolytes here that the restrictions ned to be eased for the sake of Britain's economic future
I think you need to be handing out new hymn sheets among your team Nigel
In fairness to yourselves, it's a little difficult working out what your Government wants to do - this is Brexit all over again, but thus time with a feller with a scythe as referee

An 80 seat majority indicates an electorate who want's this whole thing to finish anf soon
Nobody can have such contempt for the Briish People as to believe that they want a clownish public school lout who pays for his sex with taxpayers money, treats women as sex-toys and regards other races as "watermelon smilers" and walking latterboxes
Britain hasn't slithered that far down the tubes, surely
You Hitler won a majority and weny on to massacre millions because of their religion, way of life ot mental and physical health
Stalin was adored by his people more than any leader was before or has been since
Majorities are won by those who control the sources of information and the media - it has never been for their skill and dedication
Our political system puts our leaders in ivory towers and answerable to nobody but those who fill their bank accounts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:05 PM

Gosh, sorry John, I've just spotted that your "decorum" post was made one minute after his and that you couldn't have known what he'd said. Sorry about that, but I'm sticking to my point about his blatant (though non-insulting for a refreshing change) Aunt Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:53 PM

I repeat what I’ve said numerous times now - don’t feed the troll. He hangs out the bait in order to get a reaction, and every time you and others take the bait and start jerking around, he wins - he’s got exactly what he wants.

Y’know, I’ve reached a point where I don’t give a FF - I’ve made my decision, he’s dead to me. You dance to his tune if you wish. And good luck with that.

Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:57 AM

Baccy
I've taken note of your point and to a degree I'm adhering to it
On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining

The British public are now getting mixed messages from a Government which is demanding that everybody has to pull together if this crisis is to be beaten
Johnson, obviously shaken shitless by his own personal experiences at the hands of the virus, is saying the restrictions can't be relaxed in any way (yesterday's broadcast was as near as I have ever come to his being a human being since he first became Lord Mayor of London).
His cabinet are at each other's throats - one lot follow Johnson about the lock-down, the other crowd are more concerned about their investments
The only thing they appear to agree on is that the rest of the country have to pull in the same direction (sez the mob who can't agree among themselves and have been making back-stabbing each other a Parliamentary blood-sport since Brexit hit the fan)
To follow their 'logic' you'd have to take a course on schizophrenia - they seem not to be able to agree which of them is Norman Bates and which, his mother

Which raises the question of how we deal with our own problem
On the one hand he puts up carefully gathered cut-'n-pastes, examples of why isolation must continue; on the other, he argues why, if it is not lifted, the Economy will go Walkabout and the country will crash and burn
In a way, our own Government ("right or wrong") spokesman is a microcosm of he Westminster Circus - he argues with himself from post to post, while saying the opposite to to what a fellow Tory is saying
An example of what's happening in real life which saves us from having to talk in abstract   
That's not responding to him, in my opinion - it's using his own inability to agree with himself to spotlight what's taking place among our glorious leaders
Let's use him while he's doing such a good job on our behalf !

We saw Johnson close up and aslive as he gets once - when he was a contender as London's Lord Mayor
Pat and I were waiting for a plane for Greece at Heathrow when, out of boredom, we went into Smith's rather good book department
Johnson was standing at the pay-desk jacket hanging open, belly hanging over his belt. shirt hanging out, fumbling for coins in his jacket pocket.. (he must have been using Dominic Scumming's personal tailor even then)
Pat and I were still grinning when we got off the plane in Northern Greece

I have to confess, that image stayed with us for a long time - it conjured up some bizarre images when we read about the sexual shenanigans with his bunga-bunga tax-money lady, Ms Arcuri
Imagined descriptions of how they performed together, coupled with the shirt-tail hanging out one, caused a great deal of amusement in our local bar - they admire British politicians no end over here - more-so since I-feel-Priti Patel suggesting blockading Ireland to make her surrender to Tory demands - if you don't laugh you have to cry, doncha?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:08 AM

”On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining“

Your choice, Jim. I prefer to hold on to my self-respect, rather than allow myself to be jerked around by a worthless troublemaker. It’s playground nonsense..

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.

I was using it in the sense of opposed, not unrelated, so there is no such implication. But there is no point in getting hung up an precisely what a word means. if you don't like that word, I can live with it.

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM

By the way, the reason I thought end of May was because of this 'review after three weeks' suggestion. I thought after one set of three, people would accept a further period, after two they would be some grumbling, and after three lots of three weeks the grumbling would be loud enough in some quarters that a slight relaxation of the lockdown became likely. So nothing to do with scientific justification, but largely based on my impression of how some people will react to being locked down. And interesting had it been a 4 week period or a five week period, I think it would still be the third review that would be a problem: it is the reviews not the length that determines the dates.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

"Your choice, Jim."
Sorry Baccy - you're not responding to my points
He's not going to go away and the mods aren't going to do anything about his behaviour
Rather than allow him to be a Lord Haw Haw, I can see no reason why we shouldn't why we shouldn't hoist him on his own petard - I can't for the life see how that is lacking in self respect - I put a great deal of effort in my mis-spent youth defacing National Front posters with my own messages
As you say, my choice
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.
If you look at the curves of new cases and deaths on the worldometer website you will see the UK is atypical in that there is no pronounced peak and decay, unlike Italy where peak occurred just after mid March.
The UK is flatlining/slowly decaying this complicates the timing for easing restrictions. As there is no clearly defined decrease there is no obvious end point on which to base timings for relaxation measures. How much this is skewed by London being the largest transport hub in Europe is hard to say but it must have some impact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

To repeat my post of 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM: I think it unlikely that the science will support any relaxation at the end of May - that will be driven by politics, not science, if it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:25 AM

A bit harsh on Doug there, John, I thought...

As you say, our choice. But picking on contradictions in arguments or calling out his straw men, as I did, isn't attacking the man. You can do that and stay high. The way we comment on the absurdities might be the mistake we've commonly made. I avoid the more ludicrous stuff completely, such as links to his eejit blogger-boss. We're all different and it doesn't do to keep on at us if we engage occasionally and carefully and recognise when bait is being a-dangled. If we get down and dirty it's a different matter. Then you can bollock us!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM

I think the twin problems of the virus and Iains ("Go together like a horse and carriage" as the song says) is having the effect of getting to us on occasion
We must keep repeating "Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better" - that's what they told us in school anyway ad look at the good it did Liverpool; two world class football teams, The friggin' Beatles and The Mersey Tunnel "Who coud ask for anything more" (as the other song says
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

Nowt wrong with the Fab Four, Jim, and by the two world-class teams I'm sure you mean that in the Shankly (aka God) sense of Liverpool and Liverpool reserves...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM

Re. Trump's remarkable ideas,

"Now, Briany O'Linn kept an eye on the White House
Where President Trump sits and tweets in this bright house;
"With a shot of Jeyes Fluid," our hero would grin,
"I'll tend to me health..." Obit. Brian O'Linn.

If anyone can think of a better, more inevitable-seeming rhyme for "Whitehouse", he's welcome to the variant. I accept that I can be wrong, and even irresponsible. Gladly.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:48 AM

That's well worth working on
Buac

On Anti Vienam marches we used to sing

Johnson's in the White House
We Don't think that's the right house
It should be called (the (the prudish sang 'Powder Room', the Scousers, 'shite house'
So take the man away
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

To be accurate, Jim, the doubling refers to deaths in care homes, a fair proportion of which won't be Coronavirus deaths. Still a major setback, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:40 PM

Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?

I would like to think so, but I fear if, as slackening lockdown is being discussed and implemented in varying degrees in Germany, Italy, France and Spain and others there will be some - and I am not referring to people on this thread - who would see it as an insult to our National Pride if several countries in the EU 'got going before us'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:19 PM

Surely any "lessening" of the restrictions need to take into account numerous factors. Is there PPE for the entire population, the answer to that is no. We do not enough to cater for the needs of front-line staff.
Is the "lessening" of restrictions to allow essential work to be carried out. What is essential is debateable.

Is a "lessening" to allow people to go to the pub (and I speak as a regular pub goer) no way!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:32 PM

Drink wine, Raggytash. You have to adapt. My great grandad, a Salford man, always gave up beer for Lent. He drank wine instead. That's the way to do it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Tea’s just as good, and no headache in the morning...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

Backwoodsman, There is a secret to not getting hangovers.

The secret is to stay drunk.


Steve, I too have kept off the beer for lent, not the wine though. Aldi have some very passable Toro Loco Merlot at 7 Euro a bottle and some very passable Baron Armarillo Rioja again at 7 Euro a bottle.

I'm thinking of having an extension built to store the empties!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

I've been enjoying a cup of Tetley tea at 4pm with a slice of sourdough bread, butter and jam, to keep the worms from biting up to 5.30 when I stop work for the day!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:04 PM

" the doubling refers to deaths in care homes,"
I think you may be right Steve - being the worst in Europe is the clicher for me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 PM

Raggy, sadly those days are long gone for me. So I just put a brave face on it, and keep suppin’ the Yorkshire Tea - the Rolls Royce of teas!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

The worst in Europe is actually Belgium. But like many comparisons it is not like for like. Tha partially explains low figures for Germny and high figures for Belgium.
belgium has 633 deaths per million, Germany 74. Spain 510, Italy 453,
France 367, UK 319

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM

Well if only we knew how many have had Coronavirus and how many have died of it. Which we don't. Comparing countries is an invidious exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:13 PM

Invideous? I do not think so. Neither does Worldometer, a provider of global COVID-19 statistics for many caring people around the world. Their data is also trusted and used by the UK Government, Johns Hopkins CSSE, the Government of Thailand, the Government of Pakistan, Financial Times, The New York Times, Business Insider, BBC, and many others.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:17 PM

https://gulfnews.com/world/europe/why-the-worlds-highest-covid-19-death-rate-is-in-europes-capital-1.71195913

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

As always, there are many way to think of such things, but if you look at the Government's slide for Global Deaths, and look at the latest shown "UK (all settings)" figures, then the UK is worse than any other country at that stage except the US, and by a considerable margin. Note also that the France figures, as mentioned in the explanation, include all care homes.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM

Just read that link, Iains. The subtitle points out "Brussels counts deaths at nursing homes even if there wasn’t a confirmed infection".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

As I did to my limited following weeks ago, today the Scottish government added wearing a mask at supermarkets, etc., to social distancing and stay-at-home measures.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:30 PM

The bottom line is that different European (and other) countries are in different stages of preparedness, in different stages of testing, in different stages of knowing who has and who hasn't had the virus, and who all have their different ways of collecting their statistics. The care home issue is a shining example of inconsistencies among different countries. There is no point to be made by trying to use numbers to compare countries. A starting point would be to count the excess of deaths over the seasonal average over a number of years, then to strip away confounding factors, then to analyse every single death in relation to whether it was a Coronavirus death or not. Then we're talking. All else is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:23 PM

DMcG If there is no way to directly compare data sets from one country with another it follows that claims this country is worse than that country are meaningless. Apples do not compare with oranges. Even crude death rates cannot compare as cause of death is recorded by way of different criteria from one country to another. The inaccuracy of data compilation both within countries and between countries has been a major stumbling block for forward planning throughout this crisis. This has been highlighted frequently. The difference between German and Belgian compilations of cause of death certificates is very much an apples and oranges comparison. Whatever metric is chosen for comparison it is flawed. This has always been a given from day one. Even when the dust has settled direct   comparisons between countries will be impossible because there is no standardisation of data compilation. Total numbers of fatalities may well be accurate. Cause of death most assuredly will not be, as most will have at least one comorbidity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:24 PM

With regard to the measures taken in different places, as far as I understand things New Zealand has been fortunate.
I'm getting my mask.   #{:^[]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:06 AM

Iains, I think you are perhaps missing that this is one of the graphs that the Government shows us every day, and that it is presented by one of the scientists in attendance. It standards to reason, then, that for all its limitations they consider it one of the better ways the data can be presented.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:23 AM

Isn't it odd
Thde BBC News headlines the situation of deaths as they stand at the time (Ist item) and 'Along Comes Jones' to tell you what the real facts are within hours
Someone really does have a hot-line to God
In this crisis - everybody but everybody hads to rely on the main news outlets - the BBC, for all its weaknesses and class predilections, being the main one
If people had behaved like some do doring wartime we'd all be wearing uniforms and flinging our right arms in the air
This is divisive - Trump invented 'Fake News' to cover is idiocy and inept leadership and made it a one man White House cottage industry
Some of it seems to made it across the pond
It's one thing to discuss how the crisis is bein handled (essential, in fact)
It's quite another to dispute official announcements and undermine experts because theuy don't suit certain individual tastes
Best to pretend there's a war on and bit lips eh - you can blame the last Labour Government when this is all over - there's a good lad
Jim Carroll