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BS: UK thread, Politics and political
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 20 - 08:23 AM It's at times like this you reliase th importance to changing the electoral system to one that allows a voice to the parties that put the interests of people higher than that of the rich and powerful To a degree, Ireland's PR system puts a brake on the right-wing parties by forcing them to justify themselves in the Dail - not the case in Britain There it is a bear garden where opposition is shouted down and Parliamentarians behave like hooligan children regularly Money matters should play no part in decisions of life and death such as when the lock-down should be relaxes - it is arrogant nonsense to suggest they should This has to be a decision taken on scientific advice only It is diversive crap to suggest that science is divided on this - it ****** isn't - the lockdown should be eased only when it is safe for it to be no matter what the economic consequences It is true that the present economic structure may collapse - that structure began to do so with the widening wealth gap and the turning of plumbers, carpenters and electricians..... - all those who make our society's wheels revolve by providing the needs of everyday living, into "workers" forced into unsuitable jobs because their old ones are no longer profitable Unfortunately, we don't live in a society that allows open debate on questions like this so we have to rely on good-will and the crumbs from the tables of others Things cannot and will not return to where they were- they will eiher worsen or be changed out od necessity Maybe this is a wake-up call Happy Birthday Baccie - you don't look a day over 199 Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 01 May 20 - 09:38 AM I kinda get the feeling that you were not so keen on PR when UKIP were doing better in the polls Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 01 May 20 - 09:42 AM I can't speak for Jim, but I always accepted that having UKIP, the BNP or whoever as part of the representation was the price you would have to pay for a proportional system. Even so, I support a proportional system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 01 May 20 - 09:47 AM I too think PR would be better BUT it would need politicians and political parties to change their attitudes. I don't see that happening too soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 20 - 10:06 AM Not the parties Rain Dog - parliament as a whole It is significant that, when the Newly formed Six Counties in Norther Irland began to flex their muscles in order to build a sectarina state, one of the first things they did was to abolish PR; First past the post = political dominnce over co-operation every time Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 20 - 08:47 AM From the news today it seems that the business crown have wone the argument and economics does take priority over general well-being A bit of "we won't relax till we know it's safe to do so" lip-service but a cabinet meeting of how to proceed early next week seems to suggest either that that is not the intention ot the arse doesn't know what the elbow is doing - either is possible We'll see It's far too early to relax in the U.K. - even Boris the Brainless knows that The ail has now put forward a staged plan for returning to normal - the news-item said the UK is nowhere near in a position to do that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 20 - 01:15 PM HOW ITHERS SEE HIM Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 20 - 02:14 PM It takes a special level of ignorance not to be able to tell the difference between Humanity, Intelligence AND EDUCATION Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 20 - 02:39 PM https://www.livemint.com/Politics/2XisSUc2zugK1AkPagHgEN/Joseph-Stalin-is-greatest-individual-of-all-time-according.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 20 - 03:23 AM GREAT LEADER WITH A LORRA - LORRA SUPPORT You pair have opted for insulting and populism rather than caring about the people who ahre sufferineg and dyind due to this crisis - populism rules Ok Stalin was the second most popular leader in history, pipped at the post by Attila the Hun Hitler was a close runner up Mosely filled the streets of London with his thuggish supporters, demanding a 'final solution' to the Jewish problem - the owner of the Tory Daily Mail joined him in his campaign Thatcher became a popular post war leader - she tore Britain in half before climbing into bed with a mass-murdering dictator wh she described as a hero of democracy - she helped him escape being tried for his crimes at the human rights court In the end, she even became an embarrassment to he own right wing party, who dropped her like a hot turd newly out of the oven If you pair are going to be a double-act (may as well talk to each other - nobody else is interested), you need to decide WHO is going to be WHO Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 03 May 20 - 05:27 AM populism rules Ok Not often I agree with you but: Populism won the referendum Populism put Boris in power with a huge majority Populism put Labour into the wilderess for a generation. Whhat is there not to like about it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 20 - 05:47 AM ANOTHER REMINDER of POPULAR LEADERS Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Bonzo3legs Date: 03 May 20 - 01:11 PM It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie shouting box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better to make snide remarks as a pm directly to Iains rather than appear to be flame baiting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 20 - 01:27 PM "It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie " Shut up Archie and get back in your box Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 20 - 02:05 PM Just a thought. Why would mods post as guests? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 May 20 - 02:10 PM Because they posted as a group, rather than an individual, would be my guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 03 May 20 - 02:11 PM And I think the less we comment on it, the better. For everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 20 - 02:14 PM I suppose... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 20 - 02:16 PM Anyway, I notice that the number of tests has fallen very sharply. I guess that's because the postman doesn't come on Sundays... Lies, damn lies and Tory lies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 20 - 02:26 PM Hello mates - Much happening while I'm away from here spring cleaning my computers...??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPkKgrmgFTw |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Bonzo3legs Date: 03 May 20 - 03:32 PM Useless leftie crap continues!!
Stop. This could and probably would be looked at as trolling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: punkfolkrocker Date: 03 May 20 - 03:44 PM Bonz - yeah.. all that useless lefty crap about trying to make sure fewer folks suffer needlessly, and die too early...??? Mind you, I've not been reading this thread, but that's my edumacated guess... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 03 May 20 - 05:41 PM There has been a lot of media attention given to the fact Dominic Cummins attended SAGE(Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) meetings on covid-19. What is not so well known is that he blogged on related issues over a year ago. March 4, 2019 by dominiccummings https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-abo |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 20 - 05:54 PM Conspiracy theories rule OK, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 03:13 AM Top scientists set up ‘shadow’ SAGE committee to advise government amid concerns over political interference I am not sure anything will come of this - I can see political pressure being applied to convince the members that it 'may not be a good idea' - and I am sure they will end up advising the general public far more than the Government, who really do not want alternative views being aired. But from a scientific viewpoint rather than a political one, it is akin to a peer review or a viva, and quite a good idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 03:27 AM Hardly a conspiracy theory, prescience perhaps. However it makes Mr Cummins ideally suited to tease out a way forward from a team of experts on covid-19 lockdown. Perhaps we should let him loose on the Electoral Commission next. They seem to have been wrong on every turn in recent times, from Russian collusion to breaking electoral spending rules. Every windmill they tilted at ended up in losing and humiliation. Totally unfit for purpose. https://thecritic.co.uk/remains-media-blob-complex/ Next we have the outcome of Banks suing Guardian journalist Carole Cadwalladr to look forward to. We shall see again who is telling the porkies! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 03:36 AM DMcG The idea may have merit as an alternative sounding board but I wouldwant to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alonside their qualifications. Question Time and Panorama are but two BBC programs breaking the BBC charter by omitting the labour activist background of certain of their interviewed "experts" I suspct this latest wheeze is more of the same designed to contradict the government view and merely ending up totally confusing the public. A very bad idea and political mischief making of the highst order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 03:48 AM Maybe it should become mandatory for all those speaking on behalf of Government policy to reveal all the detains of their business connections and investment interests before being allowed to speak publicly on anything that they might benefit from ? Now that should put a few fussy cats among the pigeons, when you remember the Hamltons and our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence In a democratic society, political views should never be a cause for anybody being allowed to speak publicly unless those views are publicly offensive or break the law of the land I really can't remember anything in Labour policy being offensive to anybody other than the super-rich and to date, kit is still perfectly legal to want to make the world a better place for all Long may that continue to be the case "Useless leftie crap continues!!" I take it the mods have noted this and will live up to their stated intentions? Jim Carroll
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 03:50 AM Must do something about this keyboard :-) Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 03:58 AM t I would want to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alongside their qualifications. In short, you want it to be seen as a political group, not a scientific one, because then you can claim the arguments are being made on political grounds? No, the political affiliations are not relevant. The test of the quality of their conclusions must be in the transparency of their minutes and reporting. When they reach a conclusion that the R value is still above 1, for example, they need to show on what basis the yconclude that. It is not relevant if they are a Union representative or a Conservative Lord ennobled for his scientific contributions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 04:12 AM Having looked a little more at the areas the alternative SAGE (Parsley?) will be looking at, one will be tracking applications. I think we can make a clear scientific and political distinction there. Apple, Google, and the EU all favour a decentralised database mechanism: no body has access to all the data. The UK government favours a centralised one, where it has access to all the data (and the potential market value of that is high), but they promise they will not take advantage of that. Technically, both approaches work. So on scientific grounds, they are virtually equivalent. Politically they are very different. So I would expect the alternative SAGE to be examining how to make it work, what the effects of a 50/60/70/80 percent take up is and so forth. I would not expect them to be focusing on the centralised-decentralised question except in so far as it affects take-up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 04:19 AM DMcG How do you separate the politics from the science when the body is deliberately set up to be in opposition to the government? Do the two bodies have the same objective? If not they are in opposition. If not in opposition, why duplicate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 04:50 AM I think my previous post gives a good example of how you separate the two. But I dispute the assertion it was set up to oppose. It is set up to independently review the data. The government's conclusion is an amalgamation of the scientific, the business and the political advice. That is their right, and it is their duty to do so. All this group does is give a clearer picture of the scientific part of the advice. That means the government will need to say 'our decision is' rather than 'we are following the science.' In short, the new group is not opposing the government at all: it is simply encouraging government to accept its role in the decision making rather than passing the buck to SAGE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 05:02 AM The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything To attempt to quash any form of opposition, organised or otherwise, would be tantabountt to dicatorship led b an elite and controlled by an non-elected advisor with the power to frog-march anyone who opposes them off the premises The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 May 20 - 05:23 AM ”The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy“ Agreed, Jim. But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future. And if by some miracle it does, the Conservative Smear-Machine will swing in to action, along with their Three-Word-Slogan-Writer, in order to turn the heads of the easily-distracted and feeble-minded amongst us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM DMcG Iam afraid we willhave to disagree. The proposer for this alternative body is a former Labour chief scientific officer. Try to convince me his motivees are entirely altruistic. I ain't buying into it. Chief meddler is how I view him. One set of experts is quite enough.His background is chemistry anyway - nowt to do with epidemiology or medicine. About as useful as bringing a brain surgeon to the meeting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 05:37 AM His background is chemistry anyway Maybe he is a good facilitator! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 05:47 AM The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything First one has to find the opposition! They seek him here, they seek him there................. There is no opposition. We have the hard left, the soft left, the don't know left and the militants, and even they have split. What we have is splinters splintering. Even a vivid imagination cannot construct an oppositionn out of that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 06:09 AM "But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future." And there never will be if some people have their way I think this virus wil hopefully bring out a clear view of what happens when incompetent and elitist people are given a free hand Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whip The workers at the front haven't yet got the protection equipment they need or the testing facilities necessary to cope with the present situation - never the possibility of an increase in casualties should this massive leap in the dark be forced through Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 06:12 AM I see a thread has been opened which described the isolation of children as possible virus carriers as "ageist" for crying out loud Who let Donald Trump onto this forum - his tweets get everywhere Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 07:15 AM You might want to look at that thread again Jim. Simple typo |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 07:18 AM The government do need to be looking at relaxing the restrictions. There is a need for people to get back to work. Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown. It is not going to be a quick or easy return to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 07:30 AM That may or may not be so, Rain Dog. But if so, the statement needs to be "The Government has decided that is how to balance the competing interests" not "we are following the scientific advice." Ending the lock down is no simple matter. Unless the public actually believe it to be safe, they may voluntarily stay locked down, to a substantial extent. There is no point opening restaurants, for example, if people don't feel safe going to them. In fact, it will probably cause them to fail, as - probably - the government support via furlough etc will come to an end, and insufficient customers return to make the restaurant viable. Remember every restaurant in the country has a certain number of tables and a planned occupancy. If you reduce the number of tables there may not be enough capacity even if the restaurant is full to cover all the costs. If the occupancy also goes down the business model is wrecked. A local restaurant has sold vouchers for £100 which will buy £150s worth when they reopen. Good to keep them operating during the shut down, but yet another cost to cover when they reopen. And that is just restaurants. You could make a similar case for lots of other venues, small businesses and groups. When the lock down ends, I will happily go to visit sites like RSPB Arne. Going to a cinema is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 07:31 AM "Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown" Nowhere near as the dead ther will be if this becomes a "rush to judgement" RD Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 07:32 AM Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whipO Are you merely voicing an opinion or do you have facts to substantiate your allegations? Those are very serious charges against the democratically elected government. It would presume the tail is wagging the dog. I do not think Mr Cummins would stand for that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: weerover Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM Jim, Who is the "our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM Reclaiming sovereignty seems to be gaining in popularity. What future for Schengen now? https://unherd.com/2020/05/how-covid-19-is-hardening-our-borders/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3 |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 08:14 AM Nightingale Hospital will be put on "standby" status from tomorrow, which underlines how serious this threat remains - not an ""opinion" echoed or otherwise - a fact There can be no thought of easing the restrictions while such a situation exists "'let off the hook' villain" Been there, done that - he's one of many that stretch back decades in this 'old boy' society that protects their own Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 08:40 AM Guido has dug out the background of the alternative SAGE as expected a bunch of lefty troublemakers. We wil start with just two: Chair: Sir David King https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/ I wonder how much their hot air will add to global warming? You know, adding comments like 'leftie troublemakers' could be construed as flame bait or even trolling. Just saying... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 08:56 AM Indeed it is not going to be easy DMcG and I don't envy anyone who has to decide on how to go about it. I am still working myself though the situation is not looking too good. Hopefully I will have a job for another few months at least. I work alone in the office 4 days a week. Walking to work each day I pass all the closed shops and wonder how it will ever be economic for them to restart trading if the social distancing remains in force. The job furlough scheme is only set to run until the end of June at the moment. If it ends then I can see a lot of people being laid off from work. |