BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:08 PM

was that your own story, steve - or was it referring to someone else? or just the typical path of many ex-labour supporters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

Another example of Starmer not exactly showing that he's a pillar of strength, from Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian:

Brexit once dominated our politics; now it is barely mentioned. The Conservative landslide last December seemed to settle it. Many of the Tory MPs who would have raised the coming no-deal threat have been purged. Keir Starmer is wary of raising it: he has his eye on leave seats, and is in no hurry to play the diehard remainer. He didn’t even press the government to seek an extension to the transition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:22 PM

Read this post from left to right:

student revolutionary>>first teaching job>>union shop steward>>promoted to position of responsibility>>marry>>kids>>mortgage>>buy bigger house>>promoted again>>stop being active in union>>vote against strike>>start to admire what Blair did>>middle age>>inherit a bob or two>>buy BMW>>posh foreign travel>>pay kids' uni fees from Bank Of Mum And Dad>>moan about how high top rate of tax is>>buy cheap bolt-hole in Spain>>buy shares>>decide you can't vote for Corbyn>>vote leave>>move to cottage at the seaside>>wife joins WI, you join golf club>>die thinking you haven't had your fair share...

Ah, how life pulls us in the "right" direction!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM

" loony left..."
A phrase straight out of the bumwipe media - funny how thes things catch on with some people
Left is a straightforward description of someone's politics just as "loonie left is a pretty sound guide in working out the politic of the user

There are leftist Jews in the Labour Party - Corbyn was castigated for attending one of their meetings
Emigre Jews inspired the setting up of the Labour Party - until Israel's intervention in British politics when the BDS movement got underway there was never a hint that Labour had a "Jewish problem"
This was MY FAMILY'S INTRODUCTION TO POLITICS - "loony left extremism, of course!
The Jewish left have been quite vociferous in their opposition to the accusations - but like all good things, that sort of information is not for the likes of us

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:49 AM

I know we are living in strange times, but.....

Pubs in England will not be allowed to open until 06:00 BST on Saturday, No 10 has confirmed.

Have a drink Saturday

My local is not opening until the 18th at the earliest. Another pub that I use are opening on the 11th. With the new rules and regulations, it is hard to see how many are going to be able to survive if there is no improvement in the virus situation.

Stay safe

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:23 AM

I'm curious why leftist Jews still do not have a much louder voice in the Labour party.

Why are they not more assertively prominent in the fight back against weaponised false accusations...???


Labour Jews who publicly supported Corbyn were routinely marginalised, dismissed, ignored, and vilified
by mainstream media and right wing pro Israel propagandists.

But by now they should be more 'battle hardened',
standing up louder and prouder as an authentic voice of leftist Jewish Labour defense and counter-attack,
against the contrived smear campaigns of the right...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

my plan to cheer us all up in these difficult days

1. greek authorities imprison stanley johnson for breaking their quarantine laws
2. boris johnson appeals to the greek govt for release of his father
3. greeks say 'give us back the elgin marbkes and we can do a deal'
4. elgin marbles shipped to athens.
5 stanley johnson shipped to an iranian jail
6 that poor nazarin -radcliffe woman reunited with her family in somewhere lovely
7. boris johnson appeals to the iranian government for his father's release
8. iranians demand that the uk get rid of the nuclear weapons....
9. boris johnson appeals to the EU for help in securing his father's release
10 guy verhofstadt laughs....and laughs....and laughs....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:54 AM

well i'm calling for labour (and green and all other progressive forces) unity. i have no desire to get into bed with benjamin netanyahu. or suffer one more day of this ridiculous and dangerous english government. call me a sell-out or whatever you like...as donald trump said of the virus - just ignore all this anti-semitism -it's fictional, it's a distraction a nonsense - and one day it will disappear. or it will be there still but irrelevant against the issues of poverty, peace and inequality that should always be our focus. splitters!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:43 AM

It'll be hilarious if Jim and Steve ever start calling each other too right wing..

That'd make me nostalgic for the good old days of the loony left...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

What about a leftie peftie?

Where's Bonzo when you need him!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:54 AM

"I've never minded being called a leftie"
Me neither - it just worries me when it happens with people I feel I have things in common with
Let's face it, you only have to look at what's happened to the Labour Party
Before people start pointing fingers they need to examine why the Pary was set up and what has happened to those dreams and objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:48 AM

"...it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for..."

Thing is, Pete, I don't think we've fallen for it as such - the distraction has actually been deliberately orchestrated by a cabal of Labour insiders (it would be too tiresome to list them yet again), aided and abetted by pro-Israel lobby groups such as the Board Of Deputies, and, I strongly suspect, the Israeli regime itself (at least one member of that cabal had close links thereto...). I used to read the local Jewish press in Manchester before I stopped needing to go up north about 18 months ago, and the papers were totally obsessed with going for Corbyn's throat in every way at every opportunity. For all these people, the disastrous downfall of Jeremy Corbyn, and Labour's being cast back into the wilderness, were small prices to pay for getting the more leftist, more pro-Palestinian influence extirpated from the party. Unfortunately, our new leader is conniving in that, and he will be found out. He has shown weakness, and the longer he's at the helm the more that weakness will show through. We simply can't have a world in which the only way to "achieve harmony" or "make ourselves electable" is to get into bed with Benjamin Netanyahu. The US has done that with him and his predecessors for decades and the Palestinian people are the ones whose suffering is perpetuated.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

I've never minded being called a leftie, Jim, ever since my East London days in what was by far the most militant NUT local association in the country. We had some real revolutionaries there, though I never saw myself as being among their ranks. And, of course, we had Blair Peach. Now we really WERE lefties...

You are getting way too personal, BWM. It's all just opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

"we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise"
That is the case with anyboody who becomes leader
We do know lair came in with both socialist gunz blzing and threw his hands up as soon as he got their
We can only make our judgement on what they say - Corbyn said all the right - (whoops, sorry left) things

I have the benefit of PR here in Ireland so I have numerous preferences
My second preference was the Greens in the last election - but that won't happen again since they have united with the two right wing parties for the privilege of holding office and have already started to compromise on their own policies
Labour shoot itself in both feet several general elections ago buy doing the same thing - it lost decades of gains overnight

Think I've finished here for now - I might come back when the tabloid-like kicking match of "lefties" and Corbyn has run its course
Work calls
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

i went to a green party conference in scarborough as a (labour party) observer last year, and actually stood for them for council about 5 years ago and have voted for the in the last euro elections. i continually bang on about green (and scottish) issues in labour constituency meetings. the 'green new deal' is an important initiative that everyone with good will can get behind. It has never caused any difficulty for me in the labour party. there are many areas that the 2 parties should co-operate with. i guess i'm selling out but i wouldn't want to become self-indulgent and bitter, insulting allies who are really doing what we can with the tory problem and saving the environment. all is a bit chaotic no-one really knows the best way to fight the good fight. but we need to be generous to each other. apart from the fu$$ing liberals obviously

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Thing is..

.. we'll never know just how much Corbyn might have needed to compromise
and depart from his principles if he'd become Prime Minister,
and had to weather the storms and unexpected set backs of running our divided nation...???

He obviously would have been a far more honest and trustworthy leader
facing up to the onset of pandemic..

But personally, I doubt he'd have had the necessary stamina to cope with being in power for a full term...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Got my Green Party badge the other day BTW. Maybe I'll wear it to the next branch meeting :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:39 AM

"he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps"
So we'll send a senior QC to impress the people instead ?
Yeah - that should do the trick !!
It really is about time we moved away from personalities (and now their age)
and got around to discussing exactly what we should be "getting behind"
So far it has been to get behind someone who sacks his colleagues for telling it as it is
If Labour is to survive - which is doubtful, it needs a bit more than blind faith
There has to be either a reconciliation between all the views within the part and'or a cleansing of the Augian Stable
The Pary cannot serve any purpose by going on as it has been since Wilson declared war of the Trades Unions, which was the beginning of the downhill spiral
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I still say that Blair was the most successful leader that I have known, Steve and nothing you have said disputes that. Yes, he totally cocked it up with the war. Until then he did a good job and kept the party in power. Had he not become Bush's lapdog I believe Labour's tenure would have gone on much longer and the political climate would have been vastly different today.

I have gone "all daftly earth-mother and joined the bloody Greens" BTW. You can have a good laugh at that and I really don't mind. Once the earth's resources have gone or the air is too polluted to breathe it won't matter whether we go down the left of right hand road :-( I have not yet given up my Labour party membership get though. Maybe they will expel me now but even though they have their faults and I said I would go, I am reluctant to depart!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:20 AM

yes, i'm finding this a bit disturbing. i don't know how often contributors here attend labour party meetings or how many active members they talk to. i've always been a left of centre member - pro cnd, tony benn, jeremy corbyn, sometimes vote green or scottish socialist anti-racist,anti-capitalist etc etc.....or whatever but always pro-peace and anti -tory. this has never changed yet now i'm a sellout apparently as some critics of the party claim to understand my motives and my tactics.. this reminds me of saturday trips up buchanan street where i have often stopped to talk with guys on a pro-israel stall very quickly i am labelled as a corbynite cult member and by definition -anti-semitic. it's nonsense. corbyn has sacked pro-palestine mps and looks like starmer will too. i'd guess that the vast majority of labour are bored and annoyed by the whole non-story. it's the biggest distraction that we have all fallen for = choose your splinter group and watch the tories crack on dismantling our country and the israeli government destroy palestine. we must put aside our petty, manufactured, self-indulgent differences and unite...i'm asking for solidarity but you will call it selling out. corbyn is 75 years old, he was impossible to work for on the doorsteps - he can reasonably retire from the front line having done a good job. but we must move on...together

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:13 AM

"get behind the leader,"
Right ot wrong, you mean ?
Been there - done that
I suggest you look at what you've written about Corbyn and the "lefties) (your phrase) before you deny having sneered at people
You have the arguments of why we believe we shouldn't "get behind them" - how about tackling them
As for the leader being "elected" - so was Johnson - Brexit was supported across the board by Conservatives, Labour and in between
Shouldn't we "get behind that"?
Labour has tried right wing policies for many decades - look what has happened to the lesser well off of Britain by doing that
Time to get off the pot and give principles a chance, I think
If that fails, it can't be much worse that things have become
I honestly believe that, when this pandemic is over Starmet will throw in his lot with Johnson to "get Britain back on its feet" - and that will mean getting the lesser-well-off rather than those who can afford it to take the brunt of the coming economic crisis
We're already seeing that with record levels of unemployment and widespread closures - this is just the beginning
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

The only person ‘openly sneering’ round here is you, Jim. I’m simply asking for people like you and Steve to get real, get behind the leader, and stop undermining the only party capable of restoring social and economic justice in the UK.

None is so blind as he who will not see.

These are my final words to you. In Iains’ absence, you seem to have adopted me as a substitute and the new target for your word-twisting and accusatory tirades. Well you can forget it - from now, you’re talking to yourself.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

Labour made its appearance at a time when changes were desperately needed - it was a 'left' party with 'left' principles
Those left(ish) principles saw Britain though the devastation left behind the war and helped rebuild Britain
They gave people homes and created a health service envied by the world, it evened our some of the inequalities by giving the working person a voice in their place of work - the improvements that took place were down largely to 'lefty' principles - and there were plenty of them
Gradually they were whittled away by the right wing policies and coplromised being demanded here
The right wing sellouts by Wilson and Castle and those who followed them turned Labour into an Establishment Party - "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" (and occasionally, Government)
Right Wing New Labour plumbed the depths by co-operating with a right-wing American President and entering into the massive 'WMD' con-trick which has committed Britain to decades of war and a totally unmanageable wold-wide refugee crisis

Your right-wing takeover of the Labour Party has betrayed it's ideals (which you openly sneer at Baccie) and it has betrayed the very reason for its existence
Whenever it has betrayed those ideals it has left a smear on the name of Labour - the worst was the most recent was administered by Blair - that's won't be forgotten until young people are brought home from killing and dying
That's 'the right's' most memorable contribution to Labour's history

Your right-wing experiment has betrayed the Labour Party - about time to return to core values, I think

I really did think we'd seen the last of being referred to as a "leftie" as a term of abuse in these arguments - a nasty dose of deja vous, it would appear - think on't
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 02:04 AM

”He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert.”

Maybe, maybe not. But he can’t do any worse than Corbyn. Where did Corbyn's principles’ get us? The worst election defeat in living memory. If that’s the party-members’ definition of a great leader, the Labour Party is well and truly buggered.

You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!

Rabid Left-Wing ideologues like you might feel that way, but I very much doubt that the majority of voters will feel the same. He was a walking disaster, and an absolute gift for the Tory Propaganda Machine. You really do need to give your head a wobble.

You do realise that, by your disloyalty to, and undermining of, the current democratically-elected leader, you’re making yourself as bad as the cabal you criticise so bitterly for their campaign to undermine Corbyn, don’t you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:55 PM

"the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc)"

They are still lefty enough to need rounding up
and be sent packing back to Russia...

Well.. that's probably what our South West old tories, and even further right, would tell you...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:09 PM

" our divisive lefty infighting..."

The "infighting" has not been lefty. It's been between the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc), you know, the bastards who have toted Labour's electoral suicide note ever since Corbyn was elected leader, and a relatively principled leftie leadership (yeah, too unspun, too not media-savvy, more than a bit naive...). It's always been true in Labour that the left have endured ardent and passionate debate and have suffered differences in perspective. But, make no mistake, the real infighting has always been between establishment men to the middle-right and the left. Starmer is a completely typical member of the former. Watch that space. He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert. You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM

Actually, Dave, the gap between rich and poor got ever wider under New Labour. Not only that, Blair kept the Thatcher fuse burning via the extremely light touch apropos of regulation of the financial sector. That helped to precipitate the meltdown in 2008 and allowed the Tories to impose a decade of austerity on the most vulnerable. Just thought I'd mention it.

I'm finding some thinking in this thread by the anti-Corbynite faction in our midst that absolutely anything goes, including the ditching of all our principles, just in order to make us "electable." That appears to include keeping lefties very quiet, as if they're the ones who cause all the rifts in the party. Well Labour is SUPPOSED to be a left-wing party, lest you forget, and I don't know what you're thinking of if you think we should shut up. I also don't know what you're thinking of if you think that ditching principles can ever be an election winner for a genuinely humanitarian political party. It works for populist parties sure as eggs is eggs, as we've seen. But if we can't be better than that, I don't think we should bother. Maybe I'll go all daftly earth-mother and join the bloody Greens...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:14 PM

Ok.. hands up anyone now convinced Labour are so shit,
the tories should stay in power as long as they want to...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 04:11 PM

Once again, Jim.

the most successful Labour prime minister I have known

Attlee held the role from 1945 to 1951. I was born in 1953.

Blair was entirely wrong about the war but aside from that he worked wonders for the Labour party, social equality and the NHS. I cannot think of anyone with a better track record. Until he ruined it by pandering to Bush but that was the end of his tenure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:14 PM

Not sure who that was aimed at, Jim, but if it was me....

Re: “Wasnt Corbyn elected - you said you didn’t support him?”

Me - today, 12:20 PM -” Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.“

I don’t understand any of the rest of your post, it certainly doesn’t refer to anything I recognise as having been posted by me. Unless you’re distorting and trying to put words in my mouth again?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

"whoever the elected leader happens to be, "
Does that include Blair ?
Wan't Corbyn elected - you said you didn't support him ?
"Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known"
Well no, he wasn't - that was Attlee - hi Government rebuilt post-awar Britain, left us social housing and the National Health system - all Blair left us was a nasty taste in our mouth and New Labour
I think you might mean 'popuar' just as Brexit is popular and Johnson now is
And you back Boris's Brexit internecine butchery rather than Corbyn's attempts to keep his arty together curioser and curioser !
Are you sure you're supporting the right leader ????
Discussions like this certainly does seem to bring them out of their closets

If you don't mind - I'll stick with leaders who don't sack their collegues for telling the truth - which has yet to be challenged, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that. The fact is that the party-leader decided to ask her to retract and, according to the reports I’ve seen and read, she refused. He was entirely within his rights to take disciplinary action.

The party is bigger than any individual MP, and the leader of the party deserves loyalty and support, even when he makes an unpopular decision. The time to attack the leader is if/when the party fails at the ballot-box, not during the first three months of his tenure and when he makes his first unpopular decision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:00 PM

Get the tories out, and keep 'em out.
But don't let our divisive lefty infighting
enable the far right to win Govt instead of us...

..simple innit...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:58 PM

”Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions”

No, Jim. If you actually read what I wrote several times over the past few days, and thought about it instead of launching into ideological rants at me, you’d realise that I support whoever the elected leader happens to be, including those I wouldn’t personally have chosen - e.g. Corbyn.

It’s called ‘party-loyalty’. And party-loyalty is a part of getting the party elected to government. This country desperately needs for Labour to get elected to government, and it won’t be helped to do that by turncoats who throw teddy out of the pram because they don’t like the leader.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, Robo. I understand your point better now and I agree. It is That type of tactic that should be called out. It still isn't antisemitic though :-)

Jim. Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else

That is one off those throwaway comments that needs calling out. There is no doubt that people were pissed off with Brexit inactivity. The Tories capitalised on that with three little words, Get Brixit Done, and it worked. There is no reason at all that Labour could not have done the same. Instead they prevaricted and confused people with mixed messages. So, sadly, Boris was wiser than Jeremy in this case.

As to Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?. Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known. The amount spent on health, education and social sercices were massive during his tenure. Until he dropped the ball with university fees he did remarkably well. The war was unforgivable and he, quite rightly, resigned over that.

So, in answer to your question, Yes. Without the war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:11 PM

"THAT'S WHAT THEY DO TO US"
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:07 PM

I wonder who the real "enemy" is.

I always considered that the "enemy" should and would be the conservative party for those of us who support the labour party.

It would seem that some of us are intent on undermining the new leader to the extent that he is perceived as the "enemy".

As is it the media can sit back and watch as we scupper any chance of the labour party winning the next election and if we carry on the election after that.

Occasionally Iains pointed this out to us. Maybe just maybe he was correct, and you silly buggers just carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:53 PM

"He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983"
So have a lot of others - none of them would make good PMs right away
Islington North is a fair distance from Westminster
Jim
"Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?"
Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions :-)
"I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks"
You've been given the article - maybe she had a crystal ball - she certainly wasn't wrong
"the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes"
Surely - as your party is proving daily - it depends on what those votes?
Parlimentary politics is now totally discredited as a way - a laughing stock - even to those who still bother voting
EVEN YOUR YES_MEN KNOW THAT
Jim


Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

”Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician”

He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983. I’ll do the sums for you, that’s thirty-seven years! ‘Inexperienced’? Give us a break!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:20 PM

Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.

Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:10 PM

I don't believe in stripping the Labour Party of anybody. There is a wide range of opinion in the party, but, instead of embracing that constructively, leaders such as Callaghan, Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Starmer regard the left as an inconvenient nuisance who must be kept sidelined. Well we don't like being sidelined and we won't be keeping quiet in the vain hope that a weak and unprincipled man such as Starmer might spend the next four years polishing his halo. He won't and he is currently just as "unelectable" as Jeremy Corbyn was last year (who, for you with short memories, surprised everybody in 2017 with a campaign predicated on principle and quiet dignity that didn't win the election but gave the lie to the mass media's claim that he was a basket case). Ironic that BWM's call for "compromise" would entail the right calling all the shots and the left keeping out of the way...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:54 AM

As is so often the case with the internet, once you start looking things become less clear.

I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks. It seems her source was a blog post from 2012. Amnesty International then appear to have said that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:51 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us.

But without those of the Labour Party who are "right wing" (for Labour Party purposes) the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes, and consequently less representation, at the last election. Unless, of course, you believe that stripping the Labour Party of its "right-wing" element would encourage a lot more people to see it as a party with a mission, and decide to vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:46 AM

I’ll keep saying it until people like you realise that **your version** of the Labour Party is unelectable, Jim, and if it can’t get elected, it can’t even begin to deal with the damage caused by ten years of Tory mis-rule.

It’s so childishly simple, I’m astonished you don’t ‘get it’...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

THis gets ridiculous
- you can go on forever repeating the same old mantra - utterly meaningless
Labour has far too many examples of leaders who have taken office and then changed their tune - this feller at last pressed th early warning buzzer at an early stage
Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?
W"no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes"
Who put a time on it- nobody here ?
Peake did not give her opinion - she quoted a newspaper report which appears to be accurate on all accounts
That they back-tracked 'for the good of the party' maybe reprehensible, but it's no more than what is being suggested here

You have yet to qualify your "antisemitism" accusation Robo
Jim

UP CLOSE AND UGLY

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:10 AM

Good post, Robo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

Do you want a Labour government Steve? Or are you happy to condemn this country, especially its most vulnerable citizens, to being indefinitely abused by the greedy, rapacious Tories?

If it’s the former, you need to look up a word in the dictionary - ‘compromise’. If it’s the latter, carry on, you and Jim are doing a fine job. And shame on you both.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

DTG:Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?

DTG: That was a well worded post. Thank you. What I'm saying is not that the words of Ms. Peake expressed as a valid opinion and point of departure for investigative journalism were antisemitic. They are not. They are not even antiZionist. But couched in the form of an 'aside' that is assumed to be true and then gets 'read into the record' in a politically relevant tweet (or retweet) develops its own context, particularly in the light of existing criticisms of Labour. (And I'm going to add personally that I've run into that kind of tactic in the work environment. It carries a weight out of proportion with its apparent innocuousness. The only effective way I've found to deal with it is to call it out). What I saw in the remark was an opportunity to link Israelis as allies of the worst of American policing efforts in the persecution of American black folk. When there is no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes or invented this technique at all? This was where Ms. Griffith's point was best taken:"That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government." Ms. Long-Bailey was, I understand, given leave to recall her tweet before she was demoted (if that is the right word). This doesn't sound like a career ender, but a 'frank exchange of views'. At this point my feeble understanding of your politics rapidly loses grip. My understanding is that someone tried to murmur something underhanded under their breath, got called out for it, and a backbench scuffle ensued, and has gone underground again for the time being. (Same as happens here).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us. What RLB did was trivial compared to things like Johnson's racist comments or the stealing of taxpayers' money by dishonestly inflating expenses claims or by sexually harassing female MPs or other parliamentary staff. And not one of her critics has managed to demonstrate that she holds antisemitic views. Sir Keir should have a motto on his office wall, "I'll put my foot down, right or wrong." Starmer is running scared of the pro-Israel lobby both in the party and in the country. The confected antisemitism row was perpetuated by the likes of John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Ruth Smeeth and John Woodcock, all from the right of the party and, well, I won't mention deviousness and dishonesty...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

"No party can change anything if they’re not in government."
Unless the Labour Party provides an alternative to what has gone before it doesn't matter if they hold power - it would have been better for Britain if Blair's Party had not been elected - they left us a legacy of OIL WARS

"It's our bloody party..."
Yes it is, or it would be if it hadn't been hi-jacked by wannabe Tories
Jim