BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:27 PM

here we are again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:44 PM

And you expect it to make a difference. Wow! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM

Barb'ry - cheers..

If we can have sensible discussion between different British political sides,
whilst maintaining a fair working relationship with you as our mod..

..what a wonderful world this would be...

Up to now our little internet microcosm
reflects what can happen in the the big old real world,
when subjugated communities struggle under the boot of heavy handed police intervention...
Fortunately so far, we've not risen up in our ghetto,
and burnt down all our own shops and homes in futile protest..

We're too British for that..
Though we might just get a bit disgruntled enough
to write a letter of complaint to our local newspaper...

Right then..
My question to kick off this new thread..

News headline this morning:

"Essential workers and families to get tests"..

So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 11:22 PM

No.
Teachers haven't been regarded as essential to the Polloi for some time now; as Voltaire put it, it wouldn't do to teach the peasantry to read - "who then would plough the fields". They might even get ideas above their station. I write regretfully, as one formerly involved in higher education.

On the other hand, maybe you teach computing, and how to construct "Apps". I was kinda hoping the "predictive text facility" or whatever would have made that "Apes".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:20 AM

When it comes to something as essential as testing, son't people find it a little alarming that it should be divided into 'essential and inessential' ?
It rises several questions:
[a] Is thete not enough equipment to go around. if not, why not?
[b] Who decides and on what basis?
Somewhat drawing straw in the lifeboat-ish - I have several songs about what happens when the food runs out !

We live in a society where the importance of people is not based on skill or the contribution to society, but to the power they wield by their wealth - even the highest skilled among us are judged by whether there are enough of them to be replaced, particularly at a lower cost
That hasn't worked well in normal times - in today's situation I find it somewhat chilling

I#m a bit of a sucker for Sci-fi thrillers such as the excellent recent BBC remake of 'War of the Worlds'
The one I find really spookily co-incidental is one entitled 'Cobra' where a natural disaster (a sunspot) knocks out all the power in Britain - a middle of the road Conservative Government is faced with deciding which part of mainland Britain get's the power back and which doesn't - The North East loses out with devastating consequences, a Tommy Robinson-alike takes over.....
Television chewing-gum, but every bit as thought provoking as 'Noughts and Crosses'
God - the things you do when you've time on your hands :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

In the nightly press conference it was quite heartening to hear the scientists finally pushing back and pointing out that while they provide information, it is the politicians that take decisions. I have made similar points many times in earlier threads, but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things when the government spokesperson says 'we are following the science.' I would like to see every scientist on news programming emphasising that it is the politicians who decide, not them.

One thing I expect to cause massive confusion later on is the matter of false-positives and false negatives in tests. This is relatively subtle and between the wish in politics to give simple messages, a lack of understanding on their part and a fairly limited understanding of maths in both the media and the general population, I anticipate a great of poor, misleading and downright wrong information to be given out.   But it is critical if you are adopting a "test and trace" approach, which the government now seems to belatedly recognising is vital.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM

Just after posting that I read an email from Louise Jordan, who is a singer/songwriter who typically works on projects. For example, one is "No Petticoats Here" about women in and at the time of the first world war.

Her latest project is on Florence Nightingale, who as many of you will know is important for her use of statistics and the development of ways of presenting them. Arguably, it is this aspect of her work that has been more influential than on nursing directly.

Anyway, she has just released a song from the album called 'Statistics save Lives': "Use the Maths and Use the Science".   It is available to listen to online, but she has password protected it for people on her mailing list, so I will not post the details here.

It is highly relevant to the current situation, but quite by chance.

Her website is here

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM

"but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things"
T think this is true - the least "aligned" of the media make public things like THIS, it is ignored or denied by them in charge, than all but The Guardian and the Indie, both noted for their highly reputable investigative journalist, drop it
In the case of testing, this remains a major problem and a bone of contention with those who have to mop up the mess
Indifference rule OK with far too many, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19. I suppose we should be thankful that Boris is just ineffective rather than downright dangerouos.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:32 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19.

A fine example of meejah distortion and propagation of false news

His actual words tell a different story, but that hardly suits the narrative. Does it?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM

Following the science is fine when the science is settled. The science is quite clearly behind the curve in many regards and it's good to see scientists, a generally honest bunch, biting back (I was reading a piece on this in the Guardian just before looking at this thread). Following the science allows you one day to blame the science. It's scarcely beyond the imagination to suspect that this shoddy government sees that as a card up its sleeve.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:53 AM

From BBC news Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment

His actual words

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."°

I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

"I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it."
Hew we have to rely on a fake fake new purveyor
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:01 AM

Your quote says the Prsident suggests.He actually asked a question.
You and the meedjah may wish to skip over the vital distinction, other more probing minds do not.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:24 AM

UV light and Dalek approach to virus control.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM

China has donated 30 million to the World Health Organisation
Another kick up the arse for the Pratt on Pennsylvania Avenue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:57 AM

Is it really necessary to point out using UV to kill viruses on a surface is a completely different thing to killing it inside a human body? As that article makes clear "UV radiation kills viruses by chemically modifying their genetic material, DNA and RNA." Just what you want inside a human made up of lots of DNA.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

( suppose it may help us on here if we try not to involve american topics - there's plenty of stuff going on in these islands without looking to the horror show over the atlantic)
i've just had a very beautiful walk in nearby woods and met a couple of people on the path....we discussed redstarts, pied flycatchers, curlews calling and what a beautiful racket blackcaps are making today etc etc. how great to escape all the news. all 3 of us don't have or watch the tv for news - i love the radio (fip radio france for music (or my son's show on radio Bari in Italy) a great selection of streamed genres - no ads and very little parlezing. For news i like to listen to radio scotland - i'm usually very impressed with nicola sturgeoan - straightforward, empatheitc and sensible and preferable to whoever is spouting the westminster gibberish any day. and obviously - we get the guardian and the New European delivered. delivered. it's amazing how long i can spend reading newspapers while trying to avoid the news!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:28 AM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504358/
The abstract: Make of it what you will

The H1N1 “Spanish flu” outbreak of 1918–1919 was the most devastating pandemic on record, killing between 50 million and 100 million people. Should the next influenza pandemic prove equally virulent, there could be more than 300 million deaths globally. The conventional view is that little could have been done to prevent the H1N1 virus from spreading or to treat those infected; however, there is evidence to the contrary. Records from an “open-air” hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, suggest that some patients and staff were spared the worst of the outbreak. A combination of fresh air, sunlight, scrupulous standards of hygiene, and reusable face masks appears to have substantially reduced deaths among some patients and infections among medical staff. We argue that temporary hospitals should be a priority in emergency planning. Equally, other measures adopted during the 1918 pandemic merit more attention than they currently receive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

You are right, Workingtonman, there is more than enough politics on this side of the ocean. There seems to be a big shift in tone this week to me, broadly since last Sunday's Times article criticising the government. In the past few days we have head of the 400,000 gowns from Turkey being 32,000; the 'book a home test' running out of slots on the first day, criticism of the testing centre at Chessington for apparently losing tests, rejection for the government's attempt to switch from 'tests' to 'capacity to test' … it goes on.

But you are also right that having a walk in countryside or whatever is good for you. As I have mild asthma my daughter is very keen I don't go out at all, but today my wife and I snuck out to some nearby woods where we encountered three people in the half an hour or so we were out.   And, as you say, we heard a good variety of wildlife. I also took the opportunity to examine the curling of some fern fronds - something I regret to say I haven't looked closely at for many decades. Equally, some intact 'dandelion clocks'. There is much to appreciate now we are able to slow down and take a proper look. Some friends of mine do essentially the same walk every day, and take around 20 photos each time. The amount there is to see is, as Dumbledore would put it, "surprising in a way, but as you think about it, not really surprising at all."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

I wasn't introducing the Orange one's nonsense for further discussion really. Just saying that it makes our Boris look almost sensible. I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies:-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM

Whether Agent-Orange) suggested injections or drinking of disinfectant as a ‘cure’ for Covid-19 or not, the BBC have taken his utterance seriously enough this morning to firmly warn listeners and viewers that disinfectant must not, under any circumstances, be ingested or injected into the body.

They obviously regard either Agent-Orange, or those who listen to what he says, or both, as terminally stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Firmly, and repeatedly warn...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 AM

Medical experts in the US have just expressed their horror at the suggestion of injecting bleach for any reason - funny how far you the scalee this "fake news" reaches
Mind you, the news item carried the film of Trump actually saying it - maybe "fake film" as well !

The new Government site where essential health workers were invited to register for immediate testing, has almost immediately closed due to over-subscription in somewhat of a quandary as to where to go from here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM

What Trump actually said:

“And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute,” Trump said. “One minute! And is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So, that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.”

Sounds to me like he was suggesting injecting disinfectant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

He keeps swinging for the fences but he doesn't have a bat in his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

My bad - I think you're right
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM

Instead putting out horseshit like this a responsible leader would just say "we're looking into alternate forms of treatment" and leave it at that. Some MAGA hat-wearing dimwit is probably chugging Lysol as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

”I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.“

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

In my last post horseshit got auto-corrected to horseshoe.

---

Fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.


However it was the majority under both electoral systems elected the blond bombshells. The right are in the ascendency and you cannot do diddly squat to change anything. How very sad for you. It is the failing of democracy that the majority win and the minority lose. Claiming to have won the argument performed miracles at the polls for magic grandad, did it not?
His inferior party was smote mightily and cast into the wilderness while the winners cheered and celebrated an escape from a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

"Don't inject Lysol": maker of household cleaner hits back at Trump virus claim.

Trump Claim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM

there is a very good case for some form of PR in england/wales. the scottish government already has a functioning PR system, a much more reasonable and considerate parliamentary debate and a competent and responsive government. while only a handful of fptp MSPs are elected while the SNP is so popular, there are plenty of 'list MSPs' to ensure that minority voices are heard and considered in the chamber. i used to think that england should transfer to a similar system - but only after 3 terms of a competent democratic socialist government in the european model. but now - i'd go for PR tomorrow as a quick way to more sensible government. (though of course the liberals could mess this up as well with their relentless tory-lite approach) (d'oh!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

From a Guardian article:

Caroline Criado-Perez, whose book "Invisible Women" addresses the issue of ill-fitting PPE for women in one of its chapters, said she has been inundated with messages from healthcare workers who could not find protective equipment to fit them.
“Respiratory protective equipment is designed for a male face, and if it doesn’t fit it won’t protect,” she said. “Because of a dearth of sex disaggregated data we don’t know how many women are affected, but I am hearing on a daily basis from women in the NHS who say they can’t get their masks to fit.”

===

As I have said before, getting PPE is not the only criteria. It needs to be PPE of the right size and much of it is not suitable for women.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM
. . .
My question to kick off this new thread..
News headline this morning:
"Essential workers and families to get tests"..
So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???

Contrary to ABCD's immediate response, if your wife is a teacher she is included in the new testing regime (once the initial 'surge' on the availability settles down)
Details are on Gov.UK
That page mentions 'essential workers' and links to a list of Here where the list of essential workers includes:
List of essential workers and those prioritised for testing (England only)
. . .
education and childcare workers, including:
support and teaching staff
social workers
specialist education professionals

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Are you, Iains? Or are you just so daft as not to see a statement disguised as a question to cover your own arse?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM

Sorry for the misformating. Can someone take the italics off after "questin" please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

I see the Guardian is reporting that Dominic Cummings is a member of the SAGE group, which is supposed to be giving independent scientific advice to the government.

I am sure some will dismiss it just because the Guardian is reporting it, but let's take a wider question. Is it ever appropriate than a political appointee with no scientific background at all is able to influence the conclusions of the group, and if so when? If the government were to confirm he is an appointee, would you be comfortable? And if he is not, under what conditions would you think it appropriate he become a member?

Note that anything equivalent to "anyone the PM decides to appoint can be a member" is not answering the question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:07 PM

MPs, if a person was to genralize, have humanity degrees. This is not the best background for making judgement calls on scientific data. Having a spad like Dominic Cummins to reach to the nitty gritty is invaluable. Several oil companies I worked for brought in facilitators to bring a focus to specific problems and their solution. Their function can be summarised thus:
    Design and plan the group process, and select the tools that best help the group progress towards that outcome.
    Guide and control the group process to ensure that the above objectives are met.
    Ensure that outcomes, actions and questions are properly recorded and actioned, and appropriately dealt with afterwards.(ie lead the "lessons learnt" process)
I would see the role of Dominic Cummins as being broadly comparable to that of a facilitator. One single person able to bring a focus to disparate threads and guide/control the decision making process.
The few facilitators I encountered were geeky and super smart.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:33 PM

Others views may differ, but the accounts we have heard of Dominic Cummings do not suggest he would be a good facilitator, since a key part of being a facilitator is giving everyone a chance to express their views, whether you agree or not, and then getting the group to reach an agreement using their skills, again whether you agree with their conclusion or not.   That does not sound like a pen picture of Cummings.

But again, what is the desired outcome? This is a scientific group charged with giving the best possible scientific advice. If the facilitator is trying to ensure the recommended outcome is politically acceptable, it is not achieving its outcome. So if you have to have a facilitor, to meet the outcome, you need someone outside the political bodies.   As with justice being seen to be done as well as being done, the scientific advice needs to be demonstrably free from political bias. This is especially true if the government is relying on the 'following the best scientific advice' defence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM

For how long did they listen to you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:52 PM

Bloody good question, ABCD...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM

There is no system that is perfect and trying to get a consencus off a room full of experts is the stuff of dreams. So far thegovernment approch seems to be correct as far as lockdown is concerned.I would take issue with heathrow and ferries still allowing suipposedly unfettered access. The issue with PPE is by no means unique to britain, neither is the issue of test reliability. Frequency of testing may be a valis criticism.Not knowing all the facts I cannot comment. I think trying toplay a political blame game at this juncture is wasteful. Analysisof what couldhave been is for a later time. When every action is to a large extent on the fly having the opposition party pointing fingers and the media let loose as attack dogs serves no purpose. This is not a dress rehersal and mistakes cost lives. Personally I find the media behaviour at the daily press conferance an embarassment. The media are there purely to question and report not behave as media stars seekin "gotcha" moments. This behaviour will almost certainly lose the BBC its taxpayer funding once the dust settles. If the government has made mistakes they will inevitably be found out. I have no reason not to believe that if an action is found to be wrong then it will be rectified. There are simply too many flapping mouths for any kind of secret to be kept.
Do you seriously think Labour would not have reacted in a broadly similar way?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM

To have a "senior" spin doctor on a committee can only lead to people questioning the independence of that committee.

The scientists are appointed to provide the governments with the best advise possible given current knowledge.

Having the likes of Cummings and Ben warner on a Scientific Advisory Group can only undermine the publics perception of the advice.

It is not time to play politics with information like this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

What anybody **thinks** Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial. As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Everything that happens since the GE is Johnson’s problem. He wanted it, he got it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Obviously a poor loser! I should get used to the idea. It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:09 PM

Troll alert. As ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:14 PM

Homeopathy... may have something for the Coronavirus.


Absolutely.

Also Scientology, Flat-Earthism, Anti-Vaxxers and the "5G Causes Covid 19" crew.