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Sexism in Music forums
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 08 Jan 00 - 02:45 PM I mean who... |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 08 Jan 00 - 02:44 PM Says whom? |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: MaxTone Date: 08 Jan 00 - 02:28 PM Now, then Boys AND Girls, I'll tell you both this, JUST ONCE. All this sexizm stuff just AIN'T funny! |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Pete peterson Date: 07 Jan 00 - 04:32 PM Of course, it was Churchill himself, who was listening unhappily to some admiral talking about Naval tradition (this may well have been in WWI when he was First Lord of the Admiralty) and interrupting to say "You are talking about the traditions of the British Navy? I will tell you what they are. They are. . . rum, sodomy, and the lash." And on reading your posting I tried to imagine "Backside Rules the Navy" being sung in the higher register, and falling apart laughing, and agreeing with you that it might not work out too well. now gotta go look up "gig". Thanks PETE, who misses harpgirl and other natural wonders of Florida |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jan 00 - 04:22 PM It was not the shanty itself I was refering to directly, but some bawdy versions requested. Some versions that I know, you would not want one of your daughters singing in front of other people. ( without a major revision of roles and nomenclature ) Of course if you would check the postings there are many with minor alterations that were suggested she could sing. Please check out my posting on the origin of the word Gig. the rest will probably die with me unpublished...Yours,(tongue in cheek and not other places) Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Pete Peterson Date: 07 Jan 00 - 03:58 PM . . .where angels fear to thread. 1) Remember about Sir Winston that he was a man of his times. Born in the Victorian era, first elected to parliament when women could not yet vote, for some reason (he comes across some times as the archetype of MCP) became the target of many suffragettes. Never quite got over that, and why should he have? 2) As the father of three daughters I have tried very hard to convince them that they can do ANYTHING from which anatomy does not bar them. So far so good. . . 3) I didn't post on the sea chantey thread, but I think most people would accept as true that the average woman's voice has a range higher than the average man's voice-- so the only change I would make for a woman singing chanteys would be the same advice I give everybody: Before starting, sing through it and mark the highest note and lowest note. Now find a key you can reach both comfortably. Sing it in that key. 4) I don't find any difficulty with a woman singing a song written in the first person by a man, nor vice versa. My musical hero Charlie Poole recorded "Oh once I was a gipsy girl but now I'm a rich man's bride" (so did Emry Arthur, with some additional verses I am just now learning!) and it was years before I realized the apparent contradiction. So, even if the song were "worded to be sung by a male in the first person" I don't think it spoils the song to be led by somebody of the opposite gender. 5) Somewhere in Joe Klein's biography of Woody Guthrie, in the chapter about Lefty Lou, he said something about "it always seems to work when a man sings in high range, and the woman sings in a low range, and this is what they were doing" (exact words not right, but idea IS) Ithink I agree. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: northfolk/al cholger Date: 07 Jan 00 - 12:21 PM Is it too late to ask,"which of you actually lived in Mississippi, and which were just passin through". In a previous life I ran a small business in a tourist town in Michigan, when the customer from hell came in and asserted that our place was the a**hole of the world, to which I replied, you must be.... |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Danlbear Date: 07 Jan 00 - 12:05 PM Hey...as an avid bystander. I think the women treat the men with plenty of respect...;-> Dan |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 07 Jan 00 - 06:36 AM Since the object of this thread is directly linked to a response I made in an effort to assist someone find Sea Shanties. I feel obligated to post a response on this thread. Where you to read, and try to understand the context of my post; you would not have found any covert or overtly direct attempt at sexism. Taken that most of you do not know me personally, and must judge me by my written actions; it behooves me to be explicit and carefull in how I communicate with you. Although I am a very base, white, conservative, English born male; who's occupation since the age of sixteen involved a lack of female company for months on end; and spent most of my teenage years inhabiting pubs, taverns, and houses of ill repute. I take no delight in the common use of vulgarity, or obscene language commonly used within the presence of ladies. That being said; I carry bruises of a physical kind, from my dear long suffering wife, who takes great exception to the fact that when something happens that irritates me, or pisses me off in general. I usually express myself in the basic nautical (four letter and others of longer duration)language that I grew up with. This languge of the sea, descriptively beautifull, if coarse and foul to some. This much maligned use of Shakespeares eloquent English finds it's way into our songs. Forgive me for stating the obvious; but most of the Pub songs and Shanties I know that would be emminently suitable for Timbrel to sing; are worded to be sung by a male in the first person. Even if the female singing them were surgically altered, leather and chain clad, Ninja trained, chemically enhanced, biker broad's from Hell; they would still have trouble with credibility. I do not know Timbrel, but I suspect she is nowhere near the description I just gave you; therefore, I believe I have made my point. Further postings on the Shanty thread gave her as many examples of shanties that I knew would work with her singing in the first person. Because she wishes to sing bawdy songs, she endeared herself to me. I would love to hear her sing them, or purchase one of her CD's Some of my suggestions would involve altering words to allow her to sing first person versions of the songs; but this is well within the norm for Shantymen like her. Since as Winston Churchill emminently explained "MAN, EMBRACES WOMAN" and in every discharge book I have ever written in states SEAMAN HE/SHE I doubt if there is any need for me to discuss this further. Yours, (politically incorrect and proud of it)Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Roger the skiffler Date: 07 Jan 00 - 05:35 AM [one for Rick] I will join you too, mine capting, it is I, Ensign Bluebottle, with my trusty cardboard shield and rubber dagger. Ooh the handle's droppied off. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 07 Jan 00 - 01:31 AM They'll have to come through me first. Over my dead body. Stand and deliver, you swamp-breeding hair-laden scutt... (How'm I doing in the Captains Courageous dept.?) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Jan 00 - 12:26 AM Wyo you could never offend me. But we may have to band together to protect "Paw". Rick |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 06 Jan 00 - 11:28 PM Okay, okay. I know we have just been talking about the need not to offend. Sorry. I know that last post is practically guaranteed to get someone up in arms. I'll do my very best to behave myself now.
I'm trying very, very hard....It isn't |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jan 00 - 11:27 PM Really? You lived in Mississippi? Oh, sorry, that's not the place. Mississippi is the end of the earth (and that ain't no shit)!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 06 Jan 00 - 11:24 PM I think I know just where the Lord's bowels were relieved, too. I lived there once...
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Jan 00 - 11:33 AM Though some may dump on your efforts Skiff, it is enematic of you to pass this moving tune along and log it into the great bowl of songs. I feel the flush of warmth knowing the "Lord has bowels too." My congrats to you for finding it and you may now place your stool on the throne of Mudcat BS artistry. Spaw |
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Subject: ADD: BLEST IS THE MAN WHOSE BOWELS MOVE From: Roger the skiffler Date: 06 Jan 00 - 10:53 AM (Serious thread creep):While Catspaw is on his bumperdumper, portapotty or musical john he might lie to sing this hymn (there,back to music again!)
BLEST IS THE MAN WHOSE BOWELS MOVE
Blest is the man whose bowels move,
2. His heart contrives for their relief 3. His soul shall live secure on earth,
4. Or if he languish on his couch,
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Bert Date: 06 Jan 00 - 09:47 AM Oooo, Wyo-BABY, that just sent shivers all down my spine;-) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: WyoWoman Date: 06 Jan 00 - 02:29 AM Oh, come here, Bertie, you bad boy. I'll be happy to take you to task ... WyoWoman -- That's double-u-OH-m-a-n... |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Escamillo Date: 06 Jan 00 - 01:32 AM Well.. er I opened the thread and supposed.. er sorry..mmh See you ! |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: JenEllen Date: 06 Jan 00 - 01:01 AM Sweet mother of pearl 'Spaw. Forget Carnegie Hall, between that and the bumper dumpers, going to the bathroom in your house must be an event unto itself. Elle |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: _gargoyle Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:48 PM It wasn't my fault that the Random House dictionary had "that" as their first listing for "gig" |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:40 PM Hey, its you and me Soph......We'll be S.R.O. I'll provide the incredibly bizarre humor and you wear the Mantle of Authority...We can both put our G-Strings on THESE to better showcase our instruments...uh, so to speak. We'll knock 'em dead!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: sophocleese Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:22 PM Well as long as the Mantle of Authority doesn't interfere with my diaphragm, I need to sing well. I finally figured that the G-string goes on the guitar. Now I just have to find out if the booking agent at Carneigie Hall has any free nights he doesn't mind taking a loss on and a really strange sense of humour.... |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:11 PM So THAT'S what it was all about. I'm still wondering why Harpgirl first complained about in an "autoharp" thread. Most of the harpers I know are women. Great post Joan. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Jan 00 - 10:32 PM So Sopho...NOW you know what to wear on your "gig" at Carnegie Hall....the Mantle of Authority! Hope it comes in your color. True post Joan. You really do see it as a teacher and in the teachers who DON'T have it. I was also in sales for many years and I think its truer there than anywhere else. If you are assured, confident, etc. and act as though you believe the sale is already made...many times it will be. Its equally true for both sexes. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Joan Date: 05 Jan 00 - 10:20 PM Sara Grey and I did a song styles workshop in a Cornwall (Eng) festival a couple of years ago and a big discussion came up about how women get ignored in a group if they try to lead a song. One woman said that when a woman sings, people tend not to pay attention, talk over her, etc....but when a man gets up to sing, everyone quiets down. We got a whole lot of agreement from other women in the workshop about that. Finally one woman said she was a teacher, and when she walks into her classroom, she assumes a "mantle of authority." Her students quiet down and pay attention. She pointed out that if you behave as if you'll be respected, know your material, and just DO it, the room WILL stop chattering and listen. We thought that was brilliant! Not the quality or volume of the singer's voice that mattered most, but confidence. Mantle of authority--I love it. What a great thing to wear at gigs! Joan |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM Whoa, just popped in before going out to sing & I know I won't post again (but ya never know) when I get back in. The post refered to was female singing sea shanties & pup songs or the like, something like that. It seemeed to me that the general answer to the thread wasn't based on voice range, tonal quality or anything of that ilk but more based on gender. Hell "if I were a woman as I am a man "I sing anything I wanted & the world be damned. It sounded as if the advice & examples would more bring the songs from out of the pub & into the parlor all because of the gender of the singer? I've seen & heard more gutsy women shanty/pub singers that would make my stinking socks roll up & down like window shades & thought that "if I could make that song mine & give it half the justice she did, I'd beam for a year". I don't know what it is with women singing shanties but it seems that they're steered into the more gentle realm (if there is such a place) of shantydom. West Indians singing shanties half the time you wouldn't know if it's a woman or not singing in the upper ranges. Take a closer look at the thread & tell me if it seems that the more rowdy the shanty the more distance has been kept from it. Love to be in the middle of a hornet's nest but I gotta go sing the night away. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: sophocleese Date: 05 Jan 00 - 09:26 PM Sorry about your shirt there Micca. But it looks as if you managed to avoid spilling any on the keyboard. You can just hear it though; "I've got a gig at Carnegie Hall!" "Really? Funny place to keep it." |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: MAG still-can't-post-direct Date: 05 Jan 00 - 08:47 PM Well, actually, I haven't been able to discuss with Jow how I feel about our exchange last month. I would much rather discuss this with him via private message, but right now I can't. (When ARE they going to get done with my computer??) Joe, I was glad to read above that you don't believe in taking offense where none was meant. I must say that patriarchal dogma is why I left Christianity far behind. MA (dodging the bullets.) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Micca Date: 05 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM Ah Sopocleese you beaut!!! I just got tea all down my shirt, I could just see a big hairy a**ed musician friend saying" I've got a gig" ROFLMAOAHMS and spluttering tea every where |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Jan 00 - 06:57 PM Be easier to visualize if SOMEBODY WOULD SEND A PICTURE TO bbc DONTCHA' THINK LEEJ???????????????? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Lonesome EJ Date: 05 Jan 00 - 06:46 PM Hey MMario.. whaddaya mean Bert looks more like an Ernie? Berts have long,thin heads and are compulsive and finicky. We Ernies have round heads, big smiles, and are real free spirits. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: sophocleese Date: 05 Jan 00 - 05:41 PM I hope nobody minds if I speak a little more seriously here. Its the definition that's making me wonder. I'm not sure that I'd call it sexism when men seem more interested in one aspect and women in another. I guess when I hear the word sexism it implies a discrimination against someone on the basis of gender. Differing interests are simply differing interests. What is important is that people of either gender feel free to post without being told they can't because they've got a gig or a john thomas. I can't think, at the moment, of any examples of that. Most of the comments about singing songs from the point of veiw of one gender or another suggest that its fine to sing what you like whether you're a basso profundo or a coloratura soprano. And would probably recommend staying away from any voice-altering surgery to achieve a different effect. Although in this way Bert could become Bertha. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Bert Date: 05 Jan 00 - 05:28 PM OK thread creep! No, no one has yet called me Boyt, but when I was in Bahrain The Arabs used to get a good laugh at the similarity to "bet" which means "house". "Ha, Ha, Ha, you're called HOUSE" Sorry for all this drift Harpgirl, I guess there isn't much sexism here (that we'll admit to anyway), so they poke fun at me instead;-) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Mbo Date: 05 Jan 00 - 05:20 PM Bert, does anyone ever call you "Boyt"? I agree that Bert looks very much like a Bert, as Max closely resembles a Max. I like hear their voices on Mudcat Radio--Bert's British accent makes me feel right at home, after the tons & tons of British television & radio & plays & music I've watched & heard; and Max, who has that same great Philly accent as me and my family do! --Mbo (The Thread Creep) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: JedMarum Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:33 PM it's funny to hear people say Bert looks like a Bert. The first time I saw Mudcat Radio; I thought Bert looked like a Max ... that is, 'til I saw Max! |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Margo Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:18 PM I believe you'll find the answer in the thread named (I think) plea: pub songs or shanteys for female lead" or something like that. Sorry about not being exact, but I bet you will find it. It hasn't yet fallen off... Margo |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: MMario Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:16 PM Bert - actually I think you look more like an "Ernie" |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: MMario Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:11 PM Harpy! you just did it again!!!! WHERE are these posts of Barry's? you're killing us here, m'lady! Curiosity killed the 'catters you know! |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Bert Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:11 PM "If you've met Bert, you know the name fits him perfectly." Hmmmm, I'm not sure how to take that;-) Perhaps I should start another thread "What does a BERT look like" |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: harpgirl Date: 05 Jan 00 - 04:02 PM ...not having read alot of what has been non-music controversy lately I was just inspired by one of Barry's posts again and noticed that women stay off tech music threads and that we have ideas about who should sing what. I just thought it was cool to say "Sing whatever you want"!!! The last thing I want to do in January when everyone is so damn cranky is start more arguments! I'm getting a kick out of you joksters!! |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Hasek Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:55 PM I would agree That The Mudcat seems to bring out the rest & best in most of us. I would also add that at 47 , I probably miss some of the rules of " how to not be a sexist ". So, on a serious note, I am one who would like to be yelled at , when ever I make this blunder , or at least see by example ,things I should keep from saying. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: bbelle Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:38 PM Bert ... I consider your calling me moonbaby a term of endearment, so please don't stop. Catspaw calls me moon and kat calls me m.c. ... just don't call me moonie! I have a tendency to personalize people's names, whom I like, and shorten them so I can get them out faster and do think in terms of Bertie, instead of Bert. I've seen definite sexism on the mudcat, however, it's fairly equally split both ways. I haven't seen a lot of "Female" bashing, but I've seen a lot of "Male" bashing. And, as far as sexist remarks, it goes both ways and them that gives should be prepared to get. Sometimes the men kinda of talk like they're back in grade school ... but I figure regression is good and they must need the release. Women do it too, but usually don't put it in writing like men. Men get positively giddy about it. But 99% is all in fun, which is even more evident when you have an opportunity to meet some of the mudcatters. And, if there is something being bandied about that I find uncomfortable, I just back out of the thread and don't go back in. When there are men and women conversing on a daily basis, eventually they get to talking about sex and it's just a matter of keeping it funny and not threatening, for both. I'm wondering if harpgirl has a particular incident in mind? moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:29 PM Oh my god Joe, I just thought of a funny (in my opinion) joke, but I'm not going to disrupt this thread further, so I'll tell Heather (who will then rise from her flu-sickbed and whack me with her box of Kleenex) I broke off a 25 year relationship with my best male friend over the issue of sexism (and how his behaviour made me feel). How many times in the last 5 years have I wished I could call him for advice. Can't do it though..guess I've seen too many examples of male-female bullying to put my feelings on the back burner. Have to say though, that if a year is any indication, I've seen far less here than in the "real world". When it happens it's usually by accident. Unless someone is trying very hard to find fault, folkies come off pretty egalitarian compared to society in general. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:11 PM I think we're pretty much free of sexism here. There are differences between men and women that can cause some friction or clumsiness that even we can't avoid completely. There are also limitations on our ability to communicate what's in our hearts in a medium such as this. It's good to be somewhat careful that what we say doesn't offend - but we also need to be careful not to take offense where no offense is intended. At times, there's some gentle flirtation that goes on here, and I proudly plead guilty to being an occasional participant in that. I think a little flirtation is healthy, although there's a fine line between healthy and inappropriate. I have a great deal of respect and admiration and respect for Mr. Fielding. However, in this case, I don't think I'll follow his example. I think I'm going to continue to call Bert "Bert." If you've met Bert, you know the name fits him perfectly. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Little Neophyte Date: 05 Jan 00 - 03:06 PM Rick, I think it is best to call him Ernie. Harpgirl, I am quite interested myself. I was planning to go far in life thanks to the sexism things. My coconut bra and thong, are my main act. Nothing better than being a woman. BB |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Bert Date: 05 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM OH NO! NOT "Bertie". They used to call me that as a kid;-) And as for the "Sir Bertram" thing, when I became an American Citizen I had to sign a form saying that I give up all my hereditary titles. Which was a great laugh for a boilermaker from the East End of London. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Jan 00 - 02:40 PM Bert, is it alright if I call you "Sir Bertram"? Well how about "Bertie"? OK, Snookums Bertie-wertie...tell us about your new book. (apologies to J.C.) Rick |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Bert Date: 05 Jan 00 - 02:08 PM Actually, Liam, WE call her "Harpy" ;-) With one exception, (and I won't name the person) I haven't noticed anything. Speak up if there's anything going on out there! I guess I'm as guilty as most about sexism, I have a tendency to refer to women as "love", comes from my Cockney background and is no way intended to be demeaning. I also call Moonchild, "Moon Baby" (Hope she's not offended). So feel free to take me to task if it's needed. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: JedMarum Date: 05 Jan 00 - 01:57 PM I'm wondering too, George ... afterall; isn't harpgirl a sexist moniker? Shouldn't it have been harpperson or harpplayer or harpist or something? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: GeorgeH Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:57 AM Much preferable, MMario, but you really shouldn't have been watching. But I'm still waiting for a clue as to what this thread was intended to be about . . G. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: MMario Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:28 AM that wasn't sexism under the mistletoe, it was just sex. |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: skipjack Date: 05 Jan 00 - 11:24 AM With most handles being asexual, and this 'catter being a deckie learner, it's fascinating guessing gender from thread contributions. Can't say I've seen any overt sexism here, apart from the orgy under the mistletoe |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: JedMarum Date: 05 Jan 00 - 10:12 AM yes, harpgirl; you first! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Sexism in Music forums From: Gary T Date: 05 Jan 00 - 09:04 AM For the benefit of those of us who perhaps haven't read the threads that presumably raised this topic, what are we talking about here? |
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Subject: Sexism in Music forums From: harpgirl Date: 05 Jan 00 - 08:38 AM ...I invite my fellow mudcatters to comment on sexism in music forums...which Barry has made me think about a lot...harpgirl |
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