BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:17 PM

Read what Bill D wrote:

The original post and the link and quote from AGEuk comprise what is known as a "counter-factional conditional" in which a possible situation is debated as if it were already actual.
People often act **as if** it were true and some pretty awkward arguments follow.

I don't see any suggestion that 'incarcerating' the elderly is an actual policy in either the US or the UK. There is, of course, a natural concern that because advanced age often correlates with susceptibility to a virus such as COVID, special care should be taken to not only protect the elderly, but also to be aware that IF they mingle freely in society, they might increase the volume of infections.
   A group whose stated objective is the welfare OF the elderly can easily slip into scare tactics in order to preempt something that might happen.

Short version... we need to be careful what we presume....

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: leeneia
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:13 PM

The link in the OP leads to an opinion column by an organization called ageuk. It ruminates upon a possible future order for the elderly to keep isolating while others move on.

I'm not getting indignant yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:59 AM

In Ireland self- isolating has always been optional, according to the Guarda
The two km travel limit is being eased
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:58 AM

it probably is, but trying to change this particular government missive is pointless, if you are over seventy you have two choices comply or ignore

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: robomatic
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:18 AM

At the risk of thread spread, DtG you mentioned "equity release" mortgages. Is that what we in the States refer to as "reverse mortgages". I harbor grave suspicions about the practise but at present I am too ignorant to know if my suspicions are justified. A large company is using a well-known actor to push these yet a neighbor I know and trust looked into them and told me they were hugely exploitative. I am willing to start a whole other thread on the subject but for now I think the term "equity release" might refer to this practise.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:39 PM

Good call, Bill. I didn't have a name for that but it is evident in the tone of the author who is evident in the piece. Speaking speculatively.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:53 PM

"incarcerating the over 7 inchers - serves 'em right for being so boastful whatever age they are..."

I didn't realise that there were any of us under 7 inches, mate...

I'll get me dirty mac...

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:29 PM

Pfr I am sorry your joke was spoilt but others have had sufficient fun with my original title.
I can well understand the reasoning behind the incarceration but the precedent set is very dangerous. The police are already exceeding their powers and should sanity ever return the police will be very reluctant to relinquish any additional assumed powers. UK policing is by consent not diktak. The entire process of additional controls on people is a very grey area. Where does advisory finish and the full weight of the law start? The police cannot be allowed discretionary powers because some will inevitably abuse them. We do not have, or even require, a uniformed gendarmarie or Guardia Civil. Should the police abuse the trust of the public that could rapidly change to the detriment of our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:24 PM

AARP doesn't need you to join to inundate you with flyers, fake cards, letters, etc.

I could hope to get less junk mail from them should I join.

Meanwhile are we actually talking incarceration, and if so, how does that differ from putting old folks in old filks' homes they can't get out of?

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 20 - 02:07 PM

Iains - that grey area confusion makes the job far more difficult for police
who must exercise caution when interpreting & applying the new rules..

Hence, some terrible PR stories about over reacting policing in the tabloids,
and individual cops getting bollockings from their bosses...

[btw.. mods changing the title ruined my opportunity for a joke about

"incarcerating the over 7 inchers - serves 'em right for being so boastful whatever age they are.."...]

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 01:50 PM

My thanks to the mudelf who corrected my title for this thread.
To be fair it would seem the government advice is advisory but the way many media sources report it makes it appear mandatory.
eg the Irish Times
Restrictions are even greater for the over 70s, who are required to stay at home, avoid contact with others and arrange for delivery of food and other essentials. This is called cocooning.
In the UK:
"The Government says every citizen must comply and relevant authorities including the police will be given new powers to enforce them - including fines." Make of that what you will. It is advisory but if you ignore our edict we will fine you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 20 - 01:44 PM

I preferred my misreading of the thread title while I still hadn't fully woken up...

"Is incinerating the over 70s ageist...???"

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Bill D
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:35 PM

The original post and the link and quote from AGEuk comprise what is known as a "counter-factional conditional" in which a possible situation is debated as if it were already actual.
People often act **as if** it were true and some pretty awkward arguments follow.

I don't see any suggestion that 'incarcerating' the elderly is an actual policy in either the US or the UK. There is, of course, a natural concern that because advanced age often correlates with susceptibility to a virus such as COVID, special care should be taken to not only protect the elderly, but also to be aware that IF they mingle freely in society, they might increase the volume of infections.
   A group whose stated objective is the welfare OF the elderly can easily slip into scare tactics in order to preempt something that might happen.

Short version... we need to be careful what we presume....

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:24 PM

The problem with many British Charities is, like the church - they become careers for some rather than callings for the dedicated - Oxfam has been accused of being this on a number of occasions
Britain desperately needs to take yp the slack left by uncaring politicians, but they need to be, like Caesar's wife, above suspicion
This lot appears to be on the fringes
Had The Sun been the sole source of information it might have been different - they are instinctive liars, but the Guardian is invairably trustworthy and independent over these things - so is The Independent

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/charity-leaders-say-age-uks-commercial-partnerships-have-been-worrying-them-for-years-a6862531.html

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:13 PM

The two from the Guardian are actually the same one. The Telegraph one is about Equity release mortgages and I shall get to that. On the original clain, by the Sun, that "Age UK's enterprise division was overcharhing" the Guardian reports the following

The energy regulator said that having investigated the matter it had “concluded that there is no case to open an investigation”.

However, following its own investigation the Charity Commission has criticised Age UK for not being clearer about the nature of the commercial partnerships across the range of services, and the fee or commissions received by the charity through its Enterprise subsidiary

On to the equity release one reported in the Telegraph it opens with

One of the country’s leading charities has come under the spotlight for making money by referring elderly people to a commercial partner that routinely recommends equity release deals from its own parent company.

We cannot go much furter without signing in and I will not subscribe to any newspaper. We can see however that Age UK has now closed its links with any equity release provider.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:05 PM

Age UK hasn't always been beyond reproach, for reasons that escape me now, but I'll check it out later...

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:58 AM

To be honest, that quote had one reference to the Sun, two to the Guardian, and one from the Daily Telegraph, along with a couple of Wikipedia cross-references.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:30 AM

Age UK is a respectable registered charity as far as I know. I had not heard about any dodgy dealings but I suppose any organisation can have its dark side. The Sun, however, who's claims are quoted by SRS, is an exceedingly dodgy tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch and well known for its sensationalist reporting. Anything printed in that rag should be treated with a pinch of salt and thoroughly investigated before acceptance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:23 AM

Over 70s should be glad they are only being strongly advised to stay home for safety...

There are some in the tory Govt who may be thinking seriously along the lines
of a "Logan's Run (1976)" movie influenced approach
to increasing numbers of retirees 'burdening' society...???

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:23 AM

Well these days it does pay to keep your tongue in cheek. Walking around poking your tongue out could lead to you being tasered.

They do a lot of good here. No doubt there are some things they don't do so well but they are on the side of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:15 AM

Is that tongue-in-cheek, Rain dog? I'm looking at the source of the article as the first clue that they're not entirely above board. There are perfectly good charities, but that one seems to be self-dealing. In the US AARP is reputable, but makes a lot of money selling services, and members know they will be inundated with mail selling health, life, and auto insurance and burial plots when they join.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:13 AM

That was positively journalistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:09 AM

Indeed Age Uk are a well known subversive group here in the UK. Any group that exists to help the elderly should be viewed with suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 70's ageist
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:02 AM

The thread topic is designed to spark argument, and the link to AgeUK.org sets off alarm bells for me. The writing is not in a professional, journalist style, it inflames readers. So I went looking for information about this group.

In 2016 Age UK came under fire for recommending an energy tariff through a partnership with E.On. Sun claimed Age UK’s Enterprises division was overcharging customers signing up to a E.ON/Age Concern gas and electricity tariff marketed to older customers.[18]It emerged that Age UK had made millions by providing insurance and funeral services to older people via Age UK Enterprises Ltd.[19] In 2019 it was claimed that Age UK was sending users through its commercial arm (Age Co) to an equity release advice service provided by Hub Financial, a company wholly owned by Just Group. While customers were told that Hub compared deals from a panel of five providers, its advice process was structured so that in most cases a customer would be offered a deal by just one panel member, namely Just.[20]

There is a degree of self-dealing in their operation that sounds awfully manipulative. Is there a reasonable journalistic source for this topic of discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:21 AM

"It’s far preferable to a dose of Covid-19"
Or another round of the Brexit fiasco - that could well kill off more than the pandemic !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:15 AM

I’m over 70. The lock-down has had little effect on me, the only difference it’s made to my life is that the local folk-music venues are all closed, band-bookings are all cancelled so I don’t get to play with the band, but I still play at home and I’m learning new material (so that’s a positive).

Otherwise, life goes on very much as it did before - I go to Tesco or Mozza’s twice a week in ‘Old Codger’s Hour’, my dog and I take an hour-and-a-half-or-so walk every day, I vacuum and dust as required, I cook Mrs Backwoodsperson’s dinner, I play my guitar, I fix things around the house that need fixing, yadda yadda. And Mrs Backwoodsperson is working at home - bonus!

Lock-down can go on for ever, AFAIC. It’s far preferable to a dose of Covid-19.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:34 AM

Not sexist to be gay, or straight, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:09 AM

Nightingale Hospital will be put on standby emergency from tomorrow
Why the hell is anybody suggesting easing any restrictions in these circumstances
Healthy kids might not be at risk of illness but if they are allowed to go where they wish they can be prime infection carriers - a threat to those who are vulnerable
Madness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:03 AM

What kind would you like?

I have qualms about jailing President Trump in his 70's because Alex Jones, Hannity and Limbaugh would finally have a martyr to unite Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:40 AM

Or two missing zeros. 007 should have been incarcerated decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:34 AM

Could some kind mudelf please place the missing zero in the thread title?

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:13 AM

well to be truly authoritarian why not incarcerate people when they start to spreak

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:05 AM

I'm all for incarcerating the over 7's. A world run by children before they become indoctrinated, disillusioned and have thier imaginations quashed would be a joy to behold :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:53 AM

mg as it is for me also, but I know more than a few in poky flats and sheltered housing. This creates a very different reality for them.
Lockdown does   not impact my life significantly other thann having to plan my   meals    ahead so I can have the ingredients delivered. I still have plenty of open space to roam and many things to keep occupied with. But I count myself very fortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: mg
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:42 AM

Justified. Most likely to have worst cases and most likely to be retired. Must get work force back to work. I am in good health and over seventy but sometimes we have to sacrifice. But it is easy for me to quarantine.

Subject: BS: Is incarcerating the over 7's ageist
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:33 AM

In the UK and Ireland the over 70's are being discriminated against for covid-19 lockdown. Is this blanket policy justified or should it be based on underlying health conditions?

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/discover/2020/04/lengthy-lockdown-coronavirus/