Civil War Song

Subject: Civil War Song
From: GUEST,Murpholly
Date: 10 May 20 - 01:48 PM

Seeking words of what I believe is a song of the Civil War *English)

Where are you going to Said Milner to Malner
I will not tell you Said Thissle to foe.

Or something like that. Any help

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 20 - 01:58 PM

i think it is earlier, its sometimes called the cutty wren

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 20 - 01:59 PM

Hi, Murpholly - I've crosslinked you to our vast collection on wren songs. I think you'll find something there that is similar to the song you seek.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:48 PM

It's claimed, though with no great evidence, to go as far back as one of the peasants revolts - there wer several

Oh where are you going? said Milder to Moulder
Oh we may not tell you! said Festel to Fose
We're off to the wood! said John the Red Nose
We're off to the wood! said John the Red Nose
And what will you do there? said Milder to Moulder
Oh we may not tell you! said Festel to Fose
We'll shoot the cutty wren! said John the Red Nose
We'll shoot the cutty wren! said John the Red Nose
Oh how will you cut him up? said Milder to Moulder
Oh we may not tell you! said Festel to Fose
With knives and with forks! said John the Red Nose
With knives and with forks! said John the Red Nose
And who´ll get the spare ribs? said Milder to Moulder
Oh we may not tell you! said Festel to Fose
We'll give them all to the poor! said John the Red Nose
We'll give them all to the poor! said John the Red Nose

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Murpholly
Date: 13 May 20 - 08:47 AM

That's the one. Thanks very muchg Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 20 - 09:11 AM

Glad to know
The Ian Campbell Folk group recorded in on a very early Topic E.P. several lifetimes ago - I seem to remember they made a great job of it
I suppose you know the related rhymes claimed to be from the same Period

From memory
When Adam delved and Eve span
Who was then the Gentleman

or
The law locks up the man or woman who steals the goose from off the common,
But leaves the greater villain loose, who steals the Common off the Goose

I researched the last one for a talk I gave on Folk song and history and found it had more verses
Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Murpholly
Date: 15 May 20 - 06:05 AM

Thought that was a different song.
Watt Tyler was a man from history
And he had a dream to set the English peasants free
Fuelled by the rise of the poll tax under Edward the third
The corruption of the nobles the corrulption of the church

When Adam delved and Eve span
Who lthen was the gentleman   etc.

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 20 - 06:29 AM

Tyler's rebellion was one of a number of Peasant's revolts involving the seizure of common land - all probably produced songs and rhymes
The last in England was The Mass trespass protests in Derbyshire in 1932 which gave us 'Manchester Rambler and England's first national Park
The Scottish Clearances over the same issue produced quite a few songs in Scots Gaelic - it seems song and land seizure are inseparable Murph
Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 20 - 06:38 AM

The idea that The Cutty Wren relates to the Peasants Revolt of 1381 is due to A.L.Lloyd.

He was making it up.

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 20 - 06:54 AM

Not proven Jack - it was around long before Bert claimed it
Bert may have been economical with his background information (at a time when such things were not regaded as some people would claim they are today, but so were a lot of people
The Dialect Society was once slated for not archiving Phil Tanner's songs when they took dialect words from him - they didn't think them important, so many of them were lost
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 20 - 07:00 AM

Nearly forgot
It has been suggested that Lloyd got the 'Peasant's Revolt' theory from Arnold Wesker's play, ' Chips With Everything' which featured the song
Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: MartinNail
Date: 15 May 20 - 11:51 AM

Chips with Everything was first performed in 1962.

Bert Lloyd was propounding the Peasants' Revolt theory in 1944 (in The Singing Englishman and in the Pioneer song book).

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 20 - 12:30 PM

You are right of course, where he describes the songs origins as "a theory" - far from Jack's 'invention'
Elsewhere on the wed is is suggested it dates back as far as II76
I don;'t know th truth of this song but I do know Bert has been long enough dead to have the good manners not to accusing him of making anything up.
It becomes a little tiresome to see the reputation of people who gave us so much pleasure and inspiration exhumed and be administered a kicking when they are no longer around to answer for themselves
Nobody knows when these songs originated and we're all entitled to our theories
Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 20 - 01:18 PM

Sorry that should read 1776
Jim

Subject: RE: Civil War Song
From: GUEST,threelegsoman
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:52 AM

I uploaded my own version of The Cutty Wren about eight years ago on hearing of the death of Ian Campbell.

The Cutty Wren (Including lyrics and chords)