Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:37 PM

this is a problem for alot of singers that use mikes all the time they do not learn to project their voices, it is all done by the sound engineer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:43 PM

you see bonzo the difference between you and me is that you are looking for a pleasant sound , i am looking to hear a story sung as a story ,that requires first good diction and second making sure the voice is louder than the the accompanying instrument

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:53 PM

now jim carroll probably wont like this but here is a way of accompanying a ballad so that all the words can be heard and the story is told in a narrative style, this is not perfect, but the basics are right words clear concertina accompanying not dominating the song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:39 PM

Very nice sandman and a few tips picked up on the tune I requested

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:05 PM

Yes if you like that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:12 PM

i do like that sort of thing and so do some others , otherwise i would not have been doing this for fortyfouryears but i might have been an accountant like you, so bonzo you feel free to tell me about your trade and i will discuss mine, which hasinvolved doing gigs for 44years, this is not just about taste but getting certain basics right. there is no pint singning a s9ong if people cannot hear all the words or if your instrument is too dominant in relation to the voice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sorry - screwed up the links above - try again :

https://youtu.be/EnSQXNto_qI

https://youtu.be/DibABg7DkWQ

However - wasn't this discussion supposed to be about an up-and-coming singer called Jon Doran ? Might be time to get back to that.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:20 PM

Nice Kenny....but there's a joke in that. When Pentangle started I regarded them as too commercial, a sell out, not really folk!
Are you listening Jim?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:39 PM

kenny yes he has potential, both as a guitarist and as a singer,i thought he had more idea than the girl singing mary and the soldier [she too could be very good in time
presentin an evening in a club is another skill too, that experience helps one to learn.
it is very difficult foe male singer guitarists to make a living on ther folk scene because there are so many of them, and venues are disappearing young people will have to organise their own events ther have been many who have been hailed as the next star lee collinson was one and where is he now. anyway may i wish jon all the best may he enjoy his music and get pleasure from it , it is a wonderful thing to have akill that can lift ones spirits, making a living from it is only a secondary consideration

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:50 PM

A word on criticism - if performers don't like their performances discussed critically they should stay at home and sing to their ribber ducks in the bath - that goes for their followers

Unless of course anyone criticises the great gods of folk music as approved by you, Jim? I cannot listen to more than a few minutes of some source singers but when I dared to mention that I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn't go into raptures about x, y or z I had no right to comment.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:07 PM

Nice troll, Dave.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:35 AM

so my advice to jon doran is if you find you cannot make a living, it is not a reflection of your musical talent ,it could be one ofthe symptoms of capitalism, over supply of a type, however, cherish your music keep playing, to be able to play music well or have any artistic skill is a fantastic gift, but a gift that requires constant practice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:56 AM

That I can agree with 100% Sandman, and I wish him luck.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:27 AM

Thank you, Jeri. I do try :-)

Seriously though, apologies to all who saw my comment as trolling. I guess I was just annoyed at seeing the comment that it is ok to criticise artists after having been shouted down for doing so before.

I shall say no more about it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:58 AM

I like the Mary and the Soldier video BTW and can hear the words fine. I have added it to the "Other videos of interest" on the Mudcat YouTube channel.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:21 AM

the mudcat you tube channel,i thought the purpose of the mudcat you tube channel was for mudcat members to put up videos of themselves, is jon doran a mudcat member?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:23 AM

Not sure how far this will get Dave as you have "Mod on your Side" now (the apple did work then)
Analysing what artists do does id not "criticising' them - it is putting their work into context - every artistic genre should be open to positive and critical comment - most are
What passes for folk now apparent;y isn't - if people "like" someone then they are abpve criticism
There should be no "gods" of folk or any form of art - I'm an atheist in that respect as well
I assume your snide reference is about MacColl - I don't bring his singing into any discussion - I object to the fact that, despite the fact he and others worked on the art and techniques of singing for over a decade and created a theory of how to improve it with exercises and techniques, people would rather discuss political views he hadn't held since 1940 and name-change (even the Robert Zimmerman worshipers)
You won't find a single example of my discussing MacColl's singing - critical or uncritical, anywhere on this form - my concern for MacColl is as an artistic theorist - you are free to prove me wrong, of course
I found to my const not too long ago that to try and discuss this side of MacColl's work runs the risk of suspension

This thread seems to be an example of fanzine at it's most typical - "don't you dare knock my fave singer" - a measure of where the folk scene is going, perhaps
Critisism of the blue-eyed boy elicits only personal abuse, sinking to an agist level even - even at the ageist level, and deleted postings
Ah well, I tried
Keep up with the apples, they seem to be working
JIm

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:47 AM

"Are you listening Jim?"
No- I'm reading Ake
I didn't understand your point
Pentangle were a rock band using folk song (sort of) and like all such artists, they passed their sell-by date and moved on
When that particular product outlived its commercial value it disappeared from the shelves
If you want to find a form of folk experimentation which has become ageless, try Delius of Vaughan Williams or someone as exquisite as GEORGE BUTTERWORTH
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:49 AM

I am not sure why you think that either 'Nice troll' is a compliment or why you believe Jeri is acting in her capacity as a moderator, Jim. But, as I said, I shall say no more.

Have a look at the Mudcat YouTube channel here. You will see that we have videos recorded directly by Mudcatters and a playlist for videos mentioned in the forum. I have specifically added ones from Both Ewan MacColl and Walter Pardon. Let me know if there are any others that you have mentioned that you want me to include.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:03 AM

You obviously didn't read the deleted postings Dave - too late now
I have no idea what your UTube thinie maens - I see four artists two of which I have great respect for - Mary was part of my first singers woshop in Manchester a lifetime ago
The point that you have ignored is - at no time have I ever attempted to discuss any singer at a fanzine level - MacColl particularly
I woud love to see a critical discussion of Ewan's singing - it certainly needs discussing
Im my brass youth I discussed it with him personally, commenting of his vibrato- he explained he had worked hard to suppress it for most of singing life - a response I would have expected from a serious artit (unlike the "howe dare you criticise my singing" crap I have had to become used to
As I said - y only concern in discussing Ewan is about his singing theories
Christ knows, the scene could do with some discussion on that subject
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:27 AM

I woud love to see a critical discussion of Ewan's singing

Your wish is my command.

Critical discussion of Ewan's singing

Now maybe this thread can be about Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:35 AM

Actually, the joke was on me Jim, I opposed Pentangle for being "experimental" in the seventies and now I am promoting experiment with the music so that it might appeal a new generation.
Jim I am not afraid to examine my views from time to time and even point out where I have been inconsistent or overly dictatorial....perhaps It would be a good thing if you were to consider doing the same.
You have Jeri wrong I think, I am aware of Dave's reputation amongst the mods.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:02 AM

"It would be a good thing if you were to consider doing the same."
Why ?
There are few people who are overbearing and dictatorial on this forum - I never noticed you being one and I don't consider myseelf as having te same problem - it's the fiorst time I've encountered the accusation
I have controversial views which I am prepared to argue for - the fact that I put them up for argument is the opposite to being dictatorial - dictators delete postings and close threads when tay don't like arguments - tat's dictatorial
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:18 AM

i agree with Jim, I do not see the necessity for long guitar instrumentals in the middle of a narrative ballad,it interrupts the flow of the story would you expect eddie lenihane the storyteller to go off on a didgereedoo in the middle of one of his stories just to show how good he was with circular breathing, or how good he was with the didge
i provided a video of nic dow someone who has the guitar technique to do so but understands that the song and the singing of it comes first.
jon doran did not sing mary and the soldier that was sung by a girl whose diction was poorer than jon dorans. I do not mind a guitar instrumental at the beginning of a story song if the performer wants to show off his instrumental ability, but really if you want to do that play an instrumental.

Subject: RE: Midsomer Murders does Folk Music
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 May 20 - 06:00 AM

Mary and the Soldier

I can't let mention of Mary and the Soldier pass without posting this video. It's a fresh now as it was in 1977!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:17 AM

He did Dick. Here it is. Just Jon singing and accompanying himself on bazouki.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:21 AM

Same song - same problems as far as I can see
The singer plays mandolin and accompanies it with a song
Not what traditional singing is about - but far too common
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:48 AM

Doran's version linked by DtG,and someone else further down the page, seems to be a better recording and much better balanced than the one linked in the OP. Great singers like Brady, Gaughan, Irvine etc. who are also fine instrumentalists can very effectively bring the accompaniment up front and I think this young man also has that ability. I'm certainly borrowing as much as I can from his zouk arrangement.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:33 PM

henryp - "I can't let mention of Mary and the Soldier pass without posting this video. It's a fresh now as it was in 1977!"

Sorry, he was wearing glasses which detracts from the plain face appearance required from trad singers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:04 PM

Just a note : Jon Doran is still studying, and was a finalist in last year's BBC Young Folk Awards so I assume he's under 21. Some of the videos shared above are from 2018, meaning he was probably 18-19 at the time. One of the things that's so good about traditional music is that, unlike popular music, you can carry on get better unto your 80s as you accumulate life experience. Cut him some slack!

Constructive criticism is great, but when it's asked for and it's offered in the right way. He's a barely adult young man, singing traditional music and studying it seriously so he can get better. What more do you want of him? Don't rubbish him for not being as good as the pillars of either the revival, or the old singers who had 50 years more life experience when they were recorded, just yet.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:15 PM

"Cut him some slack!"
That would be patronising
If he's told he's making a good job of olk songs and he isn't, it's no good to him if people pretend he is
He has a good voice and he is a skillful instrumentalist - the problem for me is that's he's not combining those skills to perform his chosen type of songs
I'd be lying to pretend he was
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:48 PM

Have to disagree with you Jim. This young man is a fine fiddle player,guitarist, bouzouki player and singer of traditional songs.In the style of revivalist singers from the 1970s like Dave Burland, Tony Rose Nic Jones and other near do wells. It's just a pity he's not a 73 year old unaccompanied singer but he's making the best of a bad job. I do think you're over the top on this one Jim.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:26 PM

“Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.” (Miles Kington)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:52 PM

Anyone told Heston Blumenthal that.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:04 PM

And it's nice to see Martin Carthy with blue Telecaster standing in from of Fender amp almost as tall as him!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:17 PM

Martin shredding w/ Steeleye Span

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:29 AM

"It's just a pity he's not a 73 year old unaccompanied singer"
Another couple of red herrings Keith - I have no objections tyo young singers - I'm surrounded by a rapidly growing number of then at present and am loving every minute of it
Up to leaving London I sand all the time with an accompanist, I tried to learn the guitar and and concertina for years and gave up because I found it to difficult
This is yet one of those invented arguments to avoid the point I am making - my reservations of what this and far too many other singers do is allow the accompaniment to dominate the song rather than provide a matrix for the singer to re-create it - as best, the instrument distracts from the narrative making the words superfluous to the performance - it becomes a skillfully played piece of music with words doing something else in the background - not telling a story anyway
Examine the way the words are broken up and the punctuation is abandoned - no traditional singer would do that - no storyteller would either
It may be good musicianship but it is far from a good example of the singing of a folk song
We've had everything here, from musical skills you "give the oyng feller a chance"
Very little about the art of folk song and how the artist approached it
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM

There is hope for folk music as long as [ when the current crisis is over ] people are going out to pubs to have a few beers and sing and play just for the love of the music and singing and playing together.

Hopefully it won't be too long now.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:08 AM

But don't forget folk music is also performed in theatres, art centres, folk festivals even Labour Clubs (Croydon FC) to name but few!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:11 AM

Glad to see the Paul Brady clip come up, the one in which he sings with only his guitar for accompaniment. When I watched that on Youtube the "Next Up" on the list was the one I originally referred to where he sings, plays guitar and is accompanied by Andy Irvine [harmonica and mandolin] and someone playing bazouki. The difference in timings for these recordings is one year and the improvement is noticeable particularly in regard to the balance in performance between Paul Brady's voice and his guitar and the other instruments - nobody trying to overplay anyone else and all respecting the importance of the lyrics [Could probably be down to who was running the sound desk that night].

As far as extended instrumental intros/lead-ins and full verse instrumental breaks I would venture, yes they can be overdone but since the folk revival of the 50s/60s they do serve an extremely important function in allowing songs to be passed on aurally.

What first attracts me to a song is the melody - on hearing it I either like it, or I don't. That seals the songs fate irrespective of subject or lyrics - I've got to enjoy singing it and that is governed by melody.

Good melody, then prompts me to concentrate and really listen to the words and subject of the song. If the song with a good melody tells a story then I will take the trouble and put the effort into learning it without prompts, word cribs, smart phone, i-pad or tablet.

I sing almost everything I do unaccompanied and the best aid to getting the tune of a new song fixed in my head is to listen to a version of it that DOES have an extended lead-in and DOES HAVE an instrumental break in the middle of it.

Don't think that was required way, way back in the day as people didn't move around as much, they relied upon one another for entertainment and within any given company people were known for "their party pieces" so the assembled company heard the same material time and time again - That is how they got to know the songs, learn them and subsequently pass them on.

Great and extremely valid points expressed above by GUEST JM and GUEST Keith Price - I agree completely and wish Jon Doran all the success in the world, I would certainly pay to see him sing and perform gladly, which in my order of things puts this young man well ahead of quite a number of big names currently on the "folk scene".

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:21 AM

Jim I wonder what you make of Ye Vagabonds,Lankum or Daoirí Farrell. How much of Jon Doran's music have you heard ? You were quick to defend Ewan MacColl ( rightly so ) and his 1957 recording, on another thread as "hardly a fair example of a singer who was still finding his feet " I could understand it if you argued all trad folk song should be unaccompanied. If the accompaniment shouldn't be noticed why have it at all.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:15 AM

"Lankum"
We've seen Lankum live and spoken to at least one of them - the group summed themselves up in an interview they gave to The Irish Times "We aim to produce a sound"
I accept that - it's not what folk or any type of song should be about
Doran is new to me - if you are suggesting what has been put up as good folksinging, I would be interested to here it
This is the flaw fallacy that you have to ge there to know how good these people are - if you tell me they are, I beg to differ
I suggest you dig around some of the recordings made around the time Ewan recorded the Riverside album - everybody was "finding their feet" then
Ewan once told me that wne he started singing long ballads in clubs their length worried him
When he sang his longest, 'Gil Morris', he would break it up in two halves - one before the interval, the other in the second half
He stopped when an audience member said to him; "For fecks sake will you ever sing that ballad in one go - it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop"
All of them were experimenting - what songs, the length of songs, accompaniments, introductions.... all experimental
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:30 AM

All I can say is thanks to the original poster for sharing. I've just watched the whole 2 hours and thoroughly enjoyed it - especially the first performer Jon Doran. I really don't get the detractors - though I know in the end it is all down to personal taste. I thought both his singing and guitar playing were very good. I didn't think the guitar arrangement got in the way of anything and I could make out every word with no problem. And he's only going to get better with the years.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:55 AM

"we aim to produce a sound" - "it's not what folk or any type of song should be about"

I couldn't possibly comment - try telling that to Steve Knightley or Phil Beer!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:56 AM

There are a further 5 lots of 2 hours on youtube from that festival for your enjoyment!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:09 AM

"I really don't get the detractors"
Trt reading what they say - I've repeated dozens of times it doesn't matter what people like or dislike - it's how it stands up as folk song
Saying that the singing and playing is good is repeating what I have already said several times - it's not a good performance of a folk song - I've said that seveal times too
"Steve Knightley or Phil Beer"
THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT FOR ME
TWICE
Not much sign of a Southamplton or West Country accent there - just phony Mid-Atlanticese - no narrative ither - just drowned out words
If you "can'rt comment", probably best not to
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:14 AM

In your opinion! Obviously plenty of others who disagree.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:05 PM

" Good folksinging " Jeez Jim you're sounding more like a Comhaltas adjudicator every day.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:17 PM

He's unbelievable - are shrinks taking new patients in lockdown??

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:18 PM

That first link of Jim's is a stunning song by Steve and brings up a very valid point. There are no source singers to tell us today's events. There is no Ewan MacColl writing songs about Coronavirus. So what are we left with? Young people like Jon and not so young ones like Steve! Folk song should not be pickled or preserved. It should live and be relevent to people today. It should mean something and while I fully agree that the source singers and revival writers like MacColl have left us a lot to be grateful for, the genre must progress into todays world as well as link to the past. The Steve Knighley's and Richard Thompsons and Janice Ians and Billy Braggs of this world do that. As does Jon Doran!