Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:26 PM

I couldn't possibly comment - try telling that to Steve Knightley or Phil Beer.
I would have no hesitation if they were courteous enough to ask me, it is another example of the commrecial direction of the uk folk revival, and the influence of popculture sound is more important than message . leon rosselson however is a songwtriter with a message, ithink we need more leons and less knightley and boer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:32 PM

I must confess that I had not heard the name of Jon Doran before reading this thread and the only song that I have heard is his take on Mary & The Soldier on Youtube. On this evidence alone, I would suggest that this young man, as he develops, will have a great deal to offer the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:48 PM

"There are no source singers to tell us today's events."
Not since MacColl you mean ? - I'd hate to think that was true
I suppose you could grudgingly grant Peggy British citizenship
What on earth are you saying Dave ?
I remember that interesting on the History of Topic where somebody said "Ewan MacColl doesn't approve of contemporary songs" - a visitor from the Planet Zog, no doubt
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

You are right Vic. Jim knows the folk scene in his native country is looking more like pensioner pop than anything he or I would reconise as folk music and he has a go at the likes of Jon Doran and others. I'm baffled.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:57 PM

keith let me explain jim believes that songs accompaniment should be accompaniment, that is very simple

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:58 PM

Let's for instance say I'm a young folk singer,
just out of A level Performing Arts, or Folk University..

Jim could outline all he'd want me to aspire to do and be as a real trad folk singer..
..and I'd might go like "Nah.. don't want to.."..


But that'd only be if I knew or cared that mudcat existed...

Or maybe one of my mate's grandad might be a member,
and mentioned that some geezer Jim was going on about me..

Then maybe I could go like..

"Is mudat like SAGA youtube, can I get thumbs ups and subscribers, and get monetised on there...???

..no.. what.. it's really old fashioned plain text pages with hardly any viewer footfall..
Oh well, **** that, not bothered then.."...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:00 PM

In my view Steve Knightley is one of the finest folk song writers of the current era. His songs tell stories, make political comment, engage with significant audiences. The beauty and passion of some of the songs make me cry - especially when experienced live with people joining in on the choruses.

I like his voice too and the Show of Hands arrangements, and sound quality, in concert are second to none. The music supports and enhances the lyrics

Fortunately many people who are passionate about folk music think the same.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:07 PM

Not since MacColl you mean ?

You have said yourself, Jim, MacColl is not a source singer and does not do folk songs. No, what I mean is that there are events currently happening that deserve to have songs written and sung about them. This cannot be be done by the deceased so it has to be done by live songwriters like the ones I mentioned. Whether you like them or not does not matter. They are all we have to keep us updated.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:38 PM

I'm currently re-listening to anti thatcher protest songs
by British inner city reggae artists from the late 70s/early 80s...

..the last era [punk,ska,reggae] of genuine reality based underclass protest singing...???

In 2020, is it now asking too much of a new generation of predominantly middle class,
probably private schooled educated, folk singers,
that they can be a credible voice of working class protest and resistance...???

How can they not be mere role players, writing songs based on news headlines
and uni politics courses...

Still, anything's better than nothing I suppose;
and probably not that different to middle class folk protest singers of the 1960s revival...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:54 PM

pfr - if you want genuine working class folk song check out Joe Solo if you haven't already

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:14 PM

"not that different to middle class folk protest singers of the 1960s revival..."
I really never knew any of them Rag - unless you count working class lads who managed to pass a few exams "middle Class"
I wore my feet to the bone and sang myself hoarse protesting - then went back to rewiring houses on Monday

"MacColl is not a source singer and does not do folk songs."
I said he didn't write folk songs - correction - he said that
"This cannot be be done by the deceased so it has to be done by live songwriters"
True - as pegy Seeger is still demonstrating
If these songs are to ahve an impact thet neees to come without the muical soup obscuring the message with noise and distraction - and in a narrative form that people are able to follow - the two put up don't do this - you are given words obscured by over-loud and distracting accompaniment
"They are all we have to keep us updated."
So Ed Pickford or Jim McLean or Jack warshaw or Sandra Kerr..... or all those other fine songwriters I remember have all popped their clogs - shit - and I never received a mass-card
"Whether you like them or not does not matter."
You are determined to ignore what I say, aren't you - it has nothing whatever to do with me liking anything
We are discussing this performer as "the Hope for folk music" - what he is doing may be skilful but it has sfa to do with folk song of any kind
I wish to Christ some pop performers wud make followable songs commenting on what's happening in the world instead of sneering at fund-raisers like Geldof for raising money for good causes
Doran is neither a protest singer nor an example of folk singing

"Jim knows the folk scene in his native country is looking more like pensioner pop"
Not sure where you think my native country is - I'm from Liverpool, though I leve in Ireland
I never mentioned pensioner-pop - I said the English scene had abandoned the older songs for the disposable pop-pap - is that what you mean by "pensioner-pop" ?
Sorry - you're not making sense

"finest folk song writers of the current era"
Nobody writes folk songs - they have to win their spurs by being taken up and processed by the people then passed on again - ad infinitum, before they earn the title 'folk' - that's what the term "folk" and "tradition" mean - it 's why the most prolific and skilful songwriter using traditional forms vehemently denied writing folk songs

Our folk scene was established on a widely recognised and respected type of song - that's why it was called the folk scene
Stop concentrating on that and you end up wandering round like the Hari Krisnas canting "I don't know what folk means any more"
The Irish song and music tradition has a healthy three generation future to look farward tio because it knows what its music is, can perform it, talk and write about in and over the last few years, begin to teach it without having to wait for the music industry to decide that they might be a few million to be made out of it
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:26 PM

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:32 PM

I must confess that I had not heard the name of Jon Doran before reading this thread and the only song that I have heard is his take on Mary & The Soldier on Youtube. On this evidence alone, I would suggest that this young man, as he develops, will have a great deal to offer the folk revival. 0possibly depends on how he develops
now if he listens to performers and learns from the likes of martyn wyndham read and nic dow,yes he probably will have a lot to offer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:27 PM

We do not agree with you Jim Carroll, so there it is.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:15 PM

yes bonzo that is because you are listening out for a pleasant sound , that is why you prefer that which you do and you dismiss great storytelling singers like jeannie robertson, you like singers who play guitars and oput in instrumentals, you dismissed jeanie robertson as alright if you like that sort of thing, in my opinion your a philistine

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:27 PM

I agree with Jim on a lot of important things.
Far more than most other mudcatters..

Except for our different opinions on modern approaches to folk music..
.. and these disagreements between me and Jim are I hope mostly amicable and good humoured...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:31 PM

the two put up don't do this

Only in your opinion. I can hear every word of the very clearly stated message in both songs. I like Steve's better but that is purely personal taste. As to distractions. I said some time before, I can only listen to a short spell of some of the source singers. I find a song about something not relevant to me performed by someone who I have to work at listen too pretty distracting in itself.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:16 PM

dave lumps all source singers together another example ofhis ignorance as silly as lumping all revival singers.
would anyone say i can only listen to a short spell of revival singers. is just daft marty wyndham read is very different from ewan macColl and very different from steve turner,
so lets take a few differing source singers boblewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruMynZxWtgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxIJ1SMVxK8 sam larner very different
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3JdFnUaeRAbob roberts

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:21 PM

dave you simply dont know what you are on about, three different source singers and yet you let your prejudices get in the way. i dont like surce singers, it remindsme of a child who says i dont like greens regardless of whether its a cabbage or spinach or broccoli or, what person says i dont likr revival singers when you have maccoll jez lowe steve turner nic dow brian peters, all completely different. youare just unbelievable

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:23 PM

i mean its as daft as saying i dont like blues singers john hurt different from robert johnson different from lead belly

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:32 PM

Hope for folk music in Scotland :
https://youtu.be/Lkug80HDQho

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:35 PM

https://youtu.be/EvpwQSrlVgc

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:48 PM

My statement. I can only listen to a short spell of some of the source singers Please note the word "some".

Dick's conclusions. dave lumps all source singers together

Need I supply a better example of false logic?

Dick. There are some source singers I can listen to and some I cannot. Just As there are some revival singers, some pop groups and even some Mudcatters that I have all the time in the world for and some who I would not piss on if they were on fire.

Now, would you care to come back, maybe in the morning after a good sleep, and tell me where I lumped anything or anyone together? I am simply saying that there are SOME source singers who I find just as unlistenable as Jim finds Jon Doran or Steve Knightley.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:30 PM

What Mr Carroll ignores is that the worst thing you can do to a song is not sing it. There are no rules as to how a song should be sung, for me it is preferable with electric guitars!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:35 PM

Thanks for the links, kenny, I enjoyed listening to those two women, particularly Siobhan Miller. Btw, I watched some of their other vids and they both do well singing with with backup musicians also.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:53 PM

I'm starting to feel like if someone started a thread about how lovely the sky was, people would divide into their factions and go at it hammer and tongs over whether it was baby blue or cerulean, and that it isn't all that great unless there are some fluffy white clouds in it by the end of the day.

ANYthing to fight about. We're living in a parody.
How can anybody expect to have a conversation?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:21 AM

I hope the new rules about personal attacks apply to all threads, Jeri. In which case the fighting could be quite easily curtailed.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:38 AM

What Mr Carroll ignores is that the worst thing youh can do to a song is not sing it.
ha ha a statement made by martin carthy. that is about as daft as saying thatthe worst thing you can do to a poem is not to write it,tell that to mcgonasgle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXWbEW4OvW0my apologies to the gnome

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM

"Only in your opinion"
I thought about this a lot last night and something has struck my about your persistent and sometimes rather savage dismissals of my arguments Dave - you really do have a major problem - you don't like unaccompanied singing - you have said on numerous occasions that it bores you
We are talking about folk song (in Doran's case, what his over-accompaniment does to it)
Like it or not - the English, Irish and Scots traditions are unaccompanied ones and have been throughout their existence, as far as we know (Bede suggested a harp-accompanied one back in the 9th century, but that was a long, long time ago)
If you don't like or can't listen to unaccompanied singing, you cannot begin to understand British and Irish folk song - the voice is the very essence of our folk singing
That doesn't bar instrumentation, on the contrary - a sensitive accompaniment can be an asset, though never essential - the words alone have carried our folk songs for long enough to show that - our unaccompanied oral singing tradition goes back at least 1,000 years

Our songs are stories, emotions and aspirations often expressed in beautiful vernacular language that sometimes challenges the artistry of our greatest poets and playwrights - that was the first thing that struck many of us when we first encountered them
If you are going to add accompaniment to our songs then it has to be done as an addition - an aid to the communication of the words - not the distraction it all too often is
Now we have singers who follow their accompaniment rather than allowing the song to say what it has to say in simple narrative
You can see that in the phrasing of singers like Doran, Carthy and many others - the words become broken up, the narrative becomes gappy, punctuation is abandoned so that the songs no logner make narrative sense
Go though the songs and you can count where this happens
I think it was Marin Carthy I first heard doing this totally unnecessary musical interlude thingy where the narrative actually screeches to a halt to make room for an admittedly skilful but totally unnecessary musical interlude - even The Watersons didn't do that sort of thing - neither did The Coppers, who they took a great deal of inspiration from
The early revival, in my experience, understood the importance of narrative and the place of instruments, when they were used - you had the plinky plonk of the singing pullovers folk boom, but by and large, you were not distracted from the words

Over-instrumentation is, I believe, largely an English affectation - I find most Scots singers I hear (I admit I haven't hear too many of late) are proud of their poetic songs and ballads and the beautiful vernacular language adds to their power
The Irish tradition is slightly different in that many of the songs are lyrical rather than narrative, but that has led to a use of a high level of vocal ornamentation rather than instruments
Our source singers sang unaccompanied because they chose to, not because they were incapable of playing instruments - many of them were musicians too - especially in Ireland

What it boils down to is, if instruments are going to be used, they have to 'learn their place' in the order of things - they are there to accompany words and not the other way around, which has become all too often the case, a good accompaniment, for me, is one you don't notice until it stops (or maybe when it goes wrong)
As I say, if you don't like or understand unaccompanied folk songs you will never understand what the tradition is about

"How can anybody expect to have a conversation......?"
Is it really the job of a moderator to decide the nature and direction of a discussion Jeri ? hat's a new concept on me
Can I respectfully suggest that, if you can't keep up with the discussion then you leave it to those who can
"Old fogey" Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:51 AM

" the worst thing youh can do to a song is not sing it."
Not true - the worst thing you can do to a folk song is to denigrate it by singing it badly
Folk songs will continue to exist in print as long as we have the wherewithal to preserve them - bad singing can destroy the credibility of a very important genre of song as a performed art and condemn it to a five locked away in a cupboard
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:40 AM

you don't like unaccompanied singing - you have said on numerous occasions that it bores you

Not true, Jim. I sing unaccompanied myself. I like some unaccompanied singing just as I dislike some accompanied folk songs. What I have said is that I dislike is having to work at enjoying music. Life is full of songs I can enjoy without effort and is too short to waste time making myself listen to something I don't 'get' first time round. If that makes me shallow, so be it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:09 AM

Well unaccompanied singing by a single person bores me to tears, although Sandy Denny was OK to my ears.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:18 AM

I've just listened to the Jon Doran set in full (got fed up of the repetitive news programmes!)

I think he shows much promise. A pleasant voice and accomplished guitar etc player. I had no problems following the songs. The instrumental element was well judged in my opinion. My only comment would be that the instrument was too loud compared to the voice but this is a fairly common issue with live streamed gigs - understandably as I am sure it is difficult to get the balance right though some manage it.

I would certainly pay to go to see him at a club.

By the way it is well worth watching the rest of the CCC Festival. I discovered a number of new singers to me - most notably Jen Butterfield. The highlight of what I have seen so far was the set by Calan-ish which was absolutely tremendous

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:36 AM

"I like some unaccompanied singing just as I dislike some accompanied folk songs"
Me too - not what you've said before I think
Doesn't matter here anyway - it's been said enough by others
If life is too short not to bother with things you don't get first time round - you've missed out on a hall of a lot of good things - you have my sympathy - no wonder you like Ed Sheeran
Good things stretch and make demands on you and you end up growing in the process
"Well unaccompanied singing by a single person bores me to tears"
You're in good company
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:02 AM

i agree with you jim, actually dave the gnome might improve in my opinion his unaccompanied singning if he listened to some others.he would improve his concertina playing by listening to brian peters
i believe my singing has got better from listening to other unaccompanied singers
life and leaning a craft such as music or singing it is inmperative to listen. when i listen to irish music i select one player above all others that i wish to learn from that is seamus creagh, with singing i choose a number of different unaccompanied singers . the statement that carthy made about not singng a song etc[probably taken out of context],is absolute bollocks.
it was bonzo 3 legs who dismissed jeannie robertson, but dave, has given me the impression with his remarks about some source singers. he has stated that one of his favourite artists is a humorous guitarist songwriter,
bonzo 3 legs is a big fan of nic jones.my conclusion is that dave will listen to words
bonzo is after a good guitrist and -pleasant sound.
it is importasnt if one wants to improve either at singing or instrument playing dave the gnome wants it easy, he does not want to have to work at music or work at listening [same thing really. his type are the type that prefer strauss to beethoven].
dave s attitude is only a step away from those floorsingers who cannot be bothered to learn the words of a song,because it involves work or effort, the sort of people that have put some people off going to folk clubs

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:04 AM

Folk song is like Shakespeare, Dickens, Classical music good art - and wverything else important to our undersatand of the human condition - all needs to be met half-way
The creators whoever they were have done theitr bit by working to gice us something worth having - we should have the decency to return the favour
To treat 'the vocce of the People as you would treat disposable pop music is a betrayal of the People who made it and of what they made it for
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:12 AM

I find the same is true of most things, Jim. Like everyone on here, I have a limited number of years left. Time is the most precious commodity we have. If I spend 10 minutes listening to something I cannot get into do I spend another 2 hours trying to understand it? Or do I move on and find something I can relate to them spend the next 2 hours enjoying myself? You may chose the former and, eventually, get many more hours pleasure out of it. I would rather move on. My approach is no better or worse than yours. We just have different characters.

How come you are not willing to spend a couple of hours trying to get into the music you don't like? I could use your argument about missing out on a lot of good stuff by your summary dismissal of anything by Steve Knightley and Phil Beer. Even Ed Sheeran :-) But the thread is not about them.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:13 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_wcP25wsrE to sing like this requires effort dave lkiewise to play guitar like jon doran requires effort. talent dave is no use without effort

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:35 AM

There was a CD by an English folk artist s few years back, I forget who, but he was backed by the best in Nashville - wonderful pedal steel the lot, and it was a great album! Try listening to The Ride, a lockdown song in progress by Steve Knightly - trad very much in the making!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:53 AM

So let's put things in perspective shall we Jim Carroll, there are currently many people in hospital suffering with covid-19 and more, in particular my cancer patient sister is in Watford Hospital today to have an endoscopy to put a stent in her oesophagus to enable her to swallow. She can neither eat nor drink. Last time they tried this procedure it was too painful for her.

The way folk music is performed REALLY DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:05 AM

talent dave is no use without effort

Absolutely, Dick, but that is not what we are talking about. I may put hours of practice into singing or playing something but I am not prepared to spend hours of my precious time to try and get into something I cannot relate to.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:11 AM

"The way folk music is performed REALLY DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT."
I'm sorry for your sister's plight, as i am for all those in a similar position
Because of this bloody awful disaster, which some of us believe has been handled criminally and unforgivably badly, far too many others are in a similar, even worse situation
If the way folk music started does not matter, this performer you have vigorously supported matters even less
Life goes in and what was important before will remain important long after this is all over

The spare time we now have on our hands seems an excellent reason for such healthy and thought provoking discussions such as this

Dave
We are all in the same position - why the hell should I try to get into something I don't like whan I have now reached the age when I'm not going to fineish the work we have spent most of our lives doing on teh music we do like?
Why add to our problems - don't be silly
We made a promise to those we collected from that we would not let their songs die - we partly fulfilled that promise when Clare County Library put hundreds of them on line
The next step is to assist the British Library put some more on line - them encourage Limerick Uni to make the Travellers recordings available
Why the **** should I waste what time I have getting to line that come with a sell-by date who will be forgotten by the world when the Musoc Industry devised they are no longer a profitable asset ?
I haven't even managed to read War and Peace yet
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:24 AM

why the hell should I try to get into something I don't like whan I have now reached the age when I'm not going to fineish the work we have spent most of our lives doing on teh music we do like?
Why add to our problems - don't be silly

Spot on, Jim. So, tell me why I should waste my time on something I don't understand and cannot get into. If I like Jon Doran's stuff more than I like that of A.N. Other why should I listen to Mr or Ms Other just because they are "more traditional"?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:36 AM

Thank you for your kind words Jim.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:35 AM

"I should waste my time on something I don't understand and cannot get into"
As I said friom teh beginning and have repeated elsewhere - this has nothing to do with likes and dislikes - you made the suggestion - not me
It is about the confusing that I can define what I mean by folk song and what and those who call something entirely different "folk" can't
The same would arise if thearte people people began calling Arthur Miller plays "Shakespearean" - it would create the same confusion and conflict it has here
Two different things and may understanding beat your non-definition by a century anf a half
Your attitude has done much to kill of a bloody enjoyable and important music scene - one of the worst crimes has to tear it up by the grass roots and hand it back to the music industry we escaped from
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:38 AM

I would rather spend my time on something I enjoy.qute dave the gnome ,like wasting time on mudcat instead of improving your singing technique

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:50 AM

your singing is not bad but if you do not mind constructive criticism if you did deep breathing exercises you will improve your voice projectionyour abilty to hold notes for longer plus if you were fitter this would helop from your youtube videos you look overweight,it is my opinion that the fitter you are the better you can sing

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:04 AM

I don't want to improve my singing technique, Dick, it would bring me no benefit. I am happy with my mediocre technique. When I worked I was exceptionally good at designing and implementing highly available IT systems. I worked hard at that, enjoyed it and it brought me and my family great benefits. Singing I just do for pleasure. If someone else likes it, that is a bonus. If they do not, tough shit.

I don't find Mudcat a waste of time. Do you?

Jim, sorry, but I can't help liking what I like more than what you like. When I was a folk club organiser I was very aware of what people wanted and I did not just book what I liked. I even booked... Oh, better not go there ;-) Now I am a "civilian" I have no such constraints. I can pick and choose which acts I go to see and I find a good range of acts that I really appreciate in the folk clubs near me. You did not so you moved elsewhere. Good for you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:10 AM

"Jim, sorry, but I can't help liking what I like more than what you like."
And I can't help getting more and more irritated with having to repeat - this has`nothing whatever to do with likes and dislikes - it has to do with the massive damage done to working people's culture in hitacking tits ne and using if for what is basically a commercial product - that's whet it becomes when the aim is to create careers for singers rather promote the music
The songs you have dispaced ahve been centuries in the making and their longevity should be an indication of their importance
Your 'nuffin' to do wiv me guv' doesn't fit in with your tenacity in pusuing your non-definition
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:01 AM

It's a waste of time arguing

Jim has his views on what he considers to be folk music and the rest of us have ours - and despite what he says it is about what he likes and doesn't like as he shows no interest in the plethora of talent keeping the music alive and relevant. In the same way I am not that interested in listening to source singers - there is too much great music around in all genres for that to be something I would want to do. I do respect those who do enjoy listening to them in the same way I respect people who listen to Wagner operas it is just not for me

I'm just very glad that there are so many young people investing their time in performing and writing excellent music in the folk tradition and attracting new audiences. A few years back it looked like it may die out with those of us who have been around a long time. I am very grateful that has not proved to be the case - I'm also glad that lots of people are keeping us in touch with the music through online festivals and streaming of sets. Not the same as being there obviously but a great way to discover artists you have not come across previously

On that theme, the second Folk on Foot Front Room Festival is coming up this weekend with a great line up including Jon Boden

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:21 AM

I liked your point a bit back, Joe, about people going to a classical concert expecting to hear classical music. As you quite rightly said, no they don't. The term classical has changed to encompass not only what was originally classical but also many other works of a similar nature. Out of interest, Wiki has the following passage

The term "classical music" was not used until the early 19th century. People then started talking about classical music in order to praise the great composers such as Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. In the 20th century many different ways of composing were used, including music played by electronic instruments or very modern music using strange sounds (experimental or "avant garde" music), for example the music of John Cage. Some people feel that this kind of music cannot really be described as "classical music".

Interesting to note that the same argument goes on in other fields. Do you have a brother, Jim? :-)

Anyway, bringing it back to folk, I would argue that folk as it was first used is the same as classical when that was first used. Both now encompass both the original meaning and music similar to the original. How being similar is defined is of course subjective. It happened with folk a lot quicker than it happened with classical simply due to advances in mass distribution of the music. In my opinion.