Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:16 AM

Songs sung by folk for folk without stupid rules, now where are my Lord Sutch folk singles!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:11 AM

"Jim the song is about love/lust/longing, don't you remember? "
Which you've just described and condemned as "dirgy
u need to make up your mind Ake
If one genre of song is dismissed for that, why not the other ?
You can'rt approach folk song on the basis of personal preferences
"Some of us manage perfectly"
I'm sure some do Joe- not the point
The singing is gappy and non-narrative and the stupid strumming on the fiddle acts as a distinctive to follow the story - it's as far from a Scottish folk song as you can possibly get
Ake presented it as just that
He also raised the question of involving new people - what on earth are they going to make of that, considering what's on offer fo most young people today - planets apart
It is self-industry folkiism at its worst and if that's what passes for good folk nowadays it's the last gap of a dying culture

"Sorry, Jim Carroll you are outnumbered on this one"
If I set my ideas around what others think, I'd wear a bell around my neck and find a shearing shed to get sheared regularly
"Absolutely wonderful, beautiful sound."
"Sound" sums it up perfectly - it's not folk singing in any way shape or form
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:07 AM

no joe g, it is not just about taste, in a story ballad a long guitar instrsrumentals in the middle interferes with the flow of the story, if you went to see a story teller let us say eddie lenihane and halfway through he did a two minute warble on the jews harp , you would wonder what the fuck was going on

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:02 AM

it does not alter the fact that the most expressive version of raggle taggle gypsies comes from jeannie robertson, in my opinion she sings it better than anyone else including martin carthy nic jones. bonzo has a prejudice against the style of jeannie robertson, which is exactly what i expected from him after observing his comments about performance.. what turns bonzo on is nic jones guitar style , nic was a n innovative guitarist... but why not just listen to guitar instrumentals.nic jones in my opnion was a charismatic performer, but as a singer he owes only a little to tradtional style, he has a voca lstyle that is more like frank sinatra

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:56 AM

Jim

Some of us manage perfectly well to hear, understand and feel moved by the words and story in a song whether it has instrumental accompaniment or not. Indeed many of us find songs enhanced by such accompaniment.

The fact that you prefer (for that is what it appears to be) songs either without accompaniment or with very limited instrumental interference doesn't mean that the performance is any less 'folk'. The accompaniment does equal, if not better, service to the song in the opionion of myself and, I dare say, thousands of other folk enthusiasts

Despite what you say it really is about what you like and don't like as it is with me :-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:44 AM

Jim the song is about love/lust/longing, don't you remember?   To me this song embodies them all, and it's not because I personally like the lassie's style, it is a prospective way of keeping the young people in touch with the tradition, just like Jon and Raoiri do.
Thanks for ALL the opinions so far.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:27 AM

Sorry, Jim Carroll you are outnumbered on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:24 AM

Absolutely wonderful, beautiful sound.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:12 AM

I would have thought it fits the term 'dirgy' perfectly - sounds a bit miserable to me
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:10 AM

"To me she seems to embody the ethos of "folk Music"
Once again, À Chacun Son Goût
It soungs like no Scots orr ant "folk" music I've heard - it certainly diooesn't even sound "Scottish"
I'd be interested if anybody could compare it to any Scots traditional singer - I certainly couldn't
This is becoming somewhat 'fanzine'
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:03 AM

very pleasant, akeneaton, mind you i love the original lea rigs tune, sensitive acompaniment

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:41 AM

This wee lassie has lately become the "voice" of Scottish folk, I;ve loved her unique voice since she started out years ago and have corresponded with her on various forums, To me she seems to embody the ethos of "folk Music"    she is a natural. Please listen and say what you all think, good or not so good. No offence will be taken.
Marie Campbell

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:30 AM

"that means in the future."
For the future of the old songs, just as we could be discussing the future of Shakespeare
I have noticed our generation is nearly gone - I hope to christ our folk music hasn't - I've dedicated a lifetime to help create the possibility that future generations geyt the same pleasure out of the old music that we did and that Irish kids are now doing
If you think they are dirges you haven't been listening - thet are as varied as any other genre of song, poem, play o novel - as a Sunday newspaper used to headline each week "All human life is there"
You obviouly don't like tham - fine - stand aside and gibv others a chance to
Once these threads start nobody decides what "we're discussing" - it goes where it goes
It has nothiing to dioo with prsonal likes or dislikes - folk song is what it is - like it or not
Hopefully it will outlive us for a few centuries -f the modernist don't tear it down to replace it with the monstrosities that pass for art and culture that we are sold nowadays
Art isn't a replaceable commodity, it is something to be added to constantly - it becomes part of a people's history
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:14 AM

The thread is about "hope for folk music"......that means in the future.
We are not discussing personal likes or dislikes, at least, I am not!
I am referring to making folk song relevant today and in the future, something which requires an element of entertainment which can appeal to uncommitted listeners.
I am aware that you haven't noticed Jim, but our generation are almost extinct and the present generation have no emotional connection to the dirges which refer back to what seems to them ancient history.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:10 AM

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.”
? Bertrand Russell

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:10 AM

For me of course, I am interested only in the overall sound. I like to hear Jon's style of playing, and as his vocal style is encouraging, that is a bonus for me. My choice of course!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:57 AM

Ake
People made songs to express their feelings at how they were treated - poverty, wars, hardship, revolutions - created our folk songs
The Civil rights movement in the US produced amses of songs
If people were happy with their lot we wouldn't have the folk songs we do
You egard them as "dirges" - I spent over half a century with people who regarded them as enjoyable culture and entertainment
If we all took the view you do we would make a huge bonfire of Dickens, Hardy and Shakespeare and turn to the mass froth that we are sold to get our rocks off   
You think youngsters don't want folk song for what it is I suggest a trip to Ireland where the kids have now guaranteed a three generation survival for their musical traditions
Folk song is what it is - if you don't like it - that's your loss
It would be a betrayal to abandon 'The Songs of the People for the ephemeral dross - your choice, of course
If our generation got the pleasure we did from centuries old "dirges" why on earth shouldn't the present lot
At least give them the benefit of intelligence
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOe5aMiNQ3I arkansa red , no superflous guitat instrumentals , he tells the story and the singing is clear,every word of the story is clear,guitar accompaniment is an accopmpaniment, and we have to go to a feckin country singer to get it r8ght

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:43 AM

Times have changed, until our standard of living returns to subsistence levels as it was in the early 20th century, people will demand suitable entertainment. The dirges of battles lost, laments on personal hardships etc, have no real meaning to present generations who have only known a life of relative prosperity. Some of these young singers and musicians are entertaining but also manage to convey an understanding of times past through their passion for the music. True they are few a far between, but when they appear they should be appreciated, not condemned.
In saying that, some of the stuff being produced has moved so far from the genre, that it no longer contains any of the necessary emotional content for it to be viewed as "folk music"

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_9aqwrj3I&list=PLbLb_7MyoDFp65gQCQe18_Xih0ze5ej59&index=4 a different take on the song again.
Jim jeannie roberston perfoms the song and tells it as a story,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NJaXI0A28I however tradtions change and evolve
and it is possible to sing a song and accompany and still tell the song as a story,now my guitar playing is not as technically proficient as jon dorans,but the playing does not interfere with the storyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVaI2GHZ80g&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A&index=6

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:52 AM

"the future of folk is safe with such young musicians"
I don't wish to rock the boat again, but for me, folk song is too important to let thi pass without comment
Doran is, as you say id siklful at what he does and will become better, but his approach, in turng folk songs into skilfully produced pieces of music have been long tried and have failed dismally on the English scene -
Carthy, Rose and others based their performances on it and made their mark - they produced many copyists
Despite this, the fortunes of English narrative song have declined steadily to the point of disappearing - I hear echoes of Carthy in his approach - music rather than song
The English and Scots song traditions are narrative - that is why they survived as stories and were never accompanied
Over-accompany a folk song and it becomes something else - a pleasant (or not) piece of music)
This may or may not benefit the singer (depending on popular tase) but it does nothing for the tradition and it is certainly not what today's young people are looking for
To suggest it is a self indulgence of our generation rather than an attempt to pass on these songs or future use - the Irish youngsters are taking up the songs as traditional storytelling pieces big-time and the tradition is on a roll, rather than just limping along
My opinion, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:45 AM

Thanks Bonzo for the "heads up", a very talented young man. Personally I enjoyed listening to him play and sing - all he has to do is keep singing and playing, he doesn't need to emulate anybody. To those who like to compare - With regard to "Mary and the Soldier" listen to Paul Brady and Andy Irvine do it.

People do things differently, of the other versions offered above, liked Nick Dow, Brian Peters would drive me mad [Too much chat and waffle - was bored stupid before he started playing - he even forgot what song he was going to do].

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:57 AM

Thanks for you kind words of encouragement for these excellent young artists.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:38 PM

Just had a very quick watch of this - a snippet only - I saw the Sunday afternoon and early Saturday night of the CCC Festival (Calan- ish were astoundingly good) which introduced me to some excellent new artists and I will be going back to catch up with the rest

On first impression Jon seems to be a very proficient guitarist and a decent singer - sure his voice possibly needs some development - that will come in time - but as Bonzo says the future of folk is safe with such young musicians who were in abundance in that online festival. The Folk on Foot Front Room Festival was also superb and I'm delighted to see they are doing another one on Bank Holiday Weekend with another superb line up

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:11 PM

There is lots of new stuff on that site, Scabby D did an hour last Sunday
I know the feeling I became "inactive" in 2018 guess why? …. no reply reqd.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:44 PM

Hallo therr Kenny, thanks for the heids up I'll try to get a listen to the accordion player tomorrow   and I haven't seen Ian for years, he's wearin' well. I've never been away mate but I'm no' allowed in the wean's bit ony merr!!    :o).

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:57 PM

One for Akenaton in case you have missed it, nice to see you back

Music from Scotland New performers Plus

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:44 PM

I agree 100%.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Tradsinger
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:37 PM

I know Jon personally. He is a very modest but talented man who works hard at his music. As some of the above posts suggest, I think he is still developing but I am sure we will hear more of him.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:51 PM

Agreed Starship, the lad is very like
Daoiri Farrell
in style a has the same connectivity in presentation and emotional content

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:14 PM

I see a young singer/musician with a very bright future in music, and the more he learns from more experienced singers and musicians the easier will be his journey through music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH--82_4njk&list=RDkH--82_4njk&start_radio=1

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:08 PM

yes he has potential, but if he was to emulate nic dow a performer with very good guitar technique but who rarely lets it interfere or spoil with his accompaniments he might fulfil his potential

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:07 PM

Believe me I've searched for "John" Boden before now and nothing came up!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:03 PM

You're welcome. And for what it's worth, the kid ain't bad. He has a bit of maturing to do with regard to performance, but that'll come with time. About the tired eyes, tell me about it. For a few minutes I was searching for Jon Boden and stuff just wasn't adding up. ;-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:36 AM

"I hope a moderator can please correct the thread title. His name is spelled Jon Doran. Please get the 'h out of there."

Many thanks guest Starship- tired eyes after a week working at home - no wonder I couldn't find anything else on youtube by Jon!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:15 AM

Here's a link to his YouTube presence for those who wish to hear more of Jon D's work:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jon+doran+music

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:59 AM

brian petershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggBA4-ljloU

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:48 AM

nic dow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:41 AM

however it is great that he is singing some tradtional songs, the best advice i could give him woulsd be listen to nic dow or brian peters both are a men who are very accomplished as a guitruists and singers, but understand how to interpret vocally tradtional story ballads

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:32 AM

jon doran is introduced by the silly compere as completely unique and singing in a completely unique style ,bullshit ,
everyone is unique.. however his style is heavily influenced by nic jones, even to the extent of [in my opinion] playing unecessary guitar instrumentals, which focus on his higly accomplished guitar playing, and which interrupt the flow of the song.
A mistake that many very good guitarists make, so again nothing unique therem, asregards makingand indulgingguitar technique to the detriment of the story of the song and to keeping the instrument as an accompanimemnt, he is follwing in the footsteps of carthy and jones technique should notbe used as an end in itself, it should be thereto demonstrate musicality, if you want to demonstrate musicalcompetence instrumentally play an instrumental ,dont fall in to the trap of letting it interfere with the telling of a story

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:27 AM

This young John Doran is something, especially his 'zouk style.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:23 AM

I hope a moderator can please correct the thread title. His name is spelled Jon Doran. Please get the 'h out of there.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:13 AM

here is another accompanied version dolores keane all the words can be heard clearly,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK4TsfooOWM

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:10 AM

Glad to hear it Sandman!!!

Sorry but I can't listen to your Jeanie Robertson, my ears cannot take that style of singing. I'm sure it's pleasing to many.

"He has a fair voice and he's a skillful instrumentalist but he can't decide whether he wants to be a singer or a musician so one cancels out the other"

Carroll must think this is a discussion????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:09 AM

here is nic jones singing this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoRoc97qAE all the words are clear and he sings the song more expressively than john doran. i agree with jim carroll and prefer jeanie robertson ,but comparing the two accompanired versions, nic jones is in my opinion better than john dorans, his singing is because of the levels and expression. bonzo if you put someone on a pedestal you must expect other people toexpress constructive criticsm

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:59 AM

finally, bonzo ,i am not a sidekick of anyone

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:57 AM

but ignoring the question of taste;
some constructive criticism , the guitairist is very competent , however on occasions the vocals are uunclear because of the loudness of the accompaniment, john doran has a pleasant voice, but this is a story song , but yet no attempt is made by the singer to sing it as a story, finally if the singer got the balance between voice and guitar and voice sorted out it would[imo] be better ,the purpose of a story song is to be able to hear all the words clearly above the accpmpaniment.
bonzo, if you put a clip up you cannot just expect everyone to agree with you.
the guitar style is a little rminscent of nic jones, i know bonzo was a fan of nic jones ,nic however always had the guitar lower in volume than the vocals.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:45 AM

jeanies version in my opinion is a better way to treat the song , that gives me hope for folk music. all a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:43 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NJaXI0A28I a version of the song that is full of expression jeanie robertson

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:19 AM

I'm grateful for your proving what an unpleasant individual are once again - it really does people like this young singer no good having people like you on his side
I was happy to discuss his singing - his approach interests me because singing like that has created a great deal of problems for the revival
Our songs are narrative, 'Peggy and the Soldier' is a beautiful songs full of interesting things to say
If you drown it in musical soup, as he does, it becomes difficult to follow
He has a fair voice and he's a skillful instrumentalist but he can't decide whether he wants to be a singer or a musician so one cancels out the other
Personally, I believe Martin Carthy and his wannabe copiers have the same problem
There - I've shown you mine - you show me yours - without the abuse or you'll get your own thread closed
There really is no need to be so defensive
Jim