Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:59 AM

Vic, thanks for the info about Cyril Phillips (a 'foldaway gate', no less!). I was making no judgement on him, just pointing out what some might see as the irony in Fred Jordan disapproving of another singer hamming up an agricultural persona. My present line of research concerns the thorny question of 'authenticity' in regards to the Folk Revival, so questions over the self-conscious or even self-parodic performance styles of some traditional singers are of great interest. As is the development of the style of an influential revival singer like Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:24 AM

Saw it as it disappeared
Should read 'Daniel Corkery'
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:23 AM

"if you go to ireland, where there was no need for a revival"
Sorry Dick you are wrong - Ireland has experienced numerous revivals - the present 'renaissance' being the last
When we stared coming here it was called 'The Ballad Boom'
I answered this earlier - 19 May 20 - 12:44 PM
One of the most significant revivals was the re-finding or, in some cases, invention of a 'Celtic' culture in the drive for Independence after the Famine - wonderfully conered in 'The Prose Literature of the Gaelic Revival 1881-1921 by Philip O'Leary [1948] - Daniel Corker's 'The Hidden Ireland goes back even further
Floklore was a major part of all these movements
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:16 AM

Jim Carroll, you may wish to see the new thread posted by Richard Mellish: "Obit: Nora Butler"

Sorry, buddy.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:58 AM

Please, please do not misrepresent me.

You wrote - 20 May 20 - 10:24 AM
now if there had not been a folk revival in the uk there would be no need for the differntation of labels or categories such as source and revival singers, you described this as arrant nonsense, but it is a fact.
Sadly, this distorts the truth because...
You wrote - 19 May 20 - 11:27 AM
it is an affectation of the uk folk revival because everywhere else there was no need for a folk revival
This was the statement that I quoted and described as arrant nonsense and I went on to list folk revivals around the world.
<><><><><><><>
I am sorry that everyone else has to read this tiresome stuff but it irks me to read lies about myself. If Dick wants to take this further, could I suggest that he uses PM and we can thrash it out there.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:24 AM

vic, my point was related to the pecuilarity of the uk folk revival, that source singers have to be treated differently from revival singers i compared jeanie robertsons version of a song with macColls
now if there had not been a folk revival in the uk there would be no need for the differntation of labels or categories such as source and revival singers, you described this as arrant nonsense, but it is a fact.
if you go to ireland, where there was no need for a revival the term is not used at all. these are facts not nonsense.
you are getting very close to stalking me.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:13 AM

at no time was i referring to mike yates i had read his article about bob blake and was aware that he had collected from bob. i have[ in 1987] recorded a song from the repertopire of bob blake and was well aware he was not tradtional singer, however he was a very good singer.
the point i was making was that i judge singers on their singing abilty not their label clearly mike yates does too.
i do not believe peter kennedy did. and that was based on the fact that somewhere i read that kennedy had made a comment that blake was not all that he appeared to be.
i was aware of bob blake long before mike yates published his article in musical tradtions,
i learned songs from his repertoire back in the 80s and i have recordings to prove it.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:04 AM

Sandman (& Vic Smith).

The article you mention is probably one that I wrote some years ago for Musical Traditions. It is article 184, 'Bob Blake and the Reinvented Self'. The article is still available on-line. The reference to Kennedy is this short passage: 'On one occasion I mentioned to Peter Kennedy that I knew Bob and was surprised to find that Peter did not share my enthusiasm for Bob's singing. It never entered my mind that Peter may have known something about Bob that was unknown to me.'

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:59 AM

no, i did not mean you mike
i meant kennedys comment about bob blake [which i read somewhere possibly musical tradtions]

I would really like to see the reference to this comment. Would you please post it when you find it?

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:54 AM

I knew Cyril well and thought he was a wonderful man. He was a regular at our folk club in Lewes and his stories and antics between his songs were hilarious. He was also one of the finest singers amongst that group of his traditional singer peers. He was an old-fashioned village entertainer. At agricultural shows, village fairs, harvest suppers etc. he would appear with his fold-away gate to lean over whilst he regaled his audience with jokes, patter, stories, monologues and songs. One of his regular gigs was huge beer tent at the South of England show at Ardingly. I remember seeing him there and thought that he was mesmerising. In his old-fashioned smock, he had his natural audience in stitches. Sometimes he took Bob Lewis along as his partner and Bob would sing a few songs whilst Cyril took a break. The greatest audience for those "Country Bumpkin" songs written for the urban Music Hall was found in rural areas and many of the old Sussex singers that I knew had some of these songs in their repertoire. Cyril's house was like a museum of old agricultural implements and he would explain how they were used to his visitors. His musical parties were always memorable.   I have very little problem with the public personae of Cyril Phillips as a performer; much less cringe-worthy than the tales that I have heard from famed traditional singers about them or their fathers blacking up to sing in n****r minstrel shows.
I could tell you dozens of stories about Cyril and his escapades - but perhaps this thread is not the place.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:52 AM

i knew perfectly well that you had collected songs from bob blake and i never mentioned your name ,so no need to be defensive, i mentioned kennedys name and why he DID NOT colLect from him, Is that crystal clear

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:49 AM

no, i did not mean you mike
i meant kennedys comment about bob blake [which i read somewhere possibly musical tradtions], that he was not all that he presented himself to be[ in coded language he was not a genuine trad singer] because he learned songs from books, which presumably explains why he kennedy did not collect from him. personally i think alfred williams agenda of collecting everything was a better one
my criticism was of kennedy not mike yates

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:37 AM

Re Vic Smith's comment:

'peter kwennedy not collecting bob blake because he learned songs from 'books'
'Kennedy (I presume you mean him) never met Bob Blake. You probably mean Mike Yates.'

Reading the above you would think that I never recorded Bob Blake 'because he learned songs from books'. This is incorrect. I recorded Bob's singing, but it was only after his death that I learnt that he had got some of his songs from books. I have also said, on a number of occasions that I was surprised to discover a copy of Lucy Broadwood's 'English County Songs' in Fred Jordan's house. But this did not stop me from recording songs from Fred.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:25 AM

Vic, I was trying to help, not 'correct' you. Have a good day.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:52 AM

Good comment by Steve about Fred Jordan, to which I would add that he had of course been an actual farm labourer for a good many years before the folkies discovered him, and the outfit he wore dated back to that period of farm work from the late 1930s onwards, thus appearing anachronistic and quaint to his audiences from the late 50s onwards. Not that he didn't milk it! There's an amusing anecdote from Reg Hall in the 'Shropshire Lad' CD liner notes to the effect that Fred was extremely unimpressed by the 'country bumpkin' fact of Cyril Philips when they met at a festival in 1959. Fred certainly thought hard about the way he presented himself.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:49 AM

The contributions of Bert and Ewan are surely beyond any doubt. I have no quibble over Ewan whatsoever, only those who place him on the wrong pedestal. He was not and never claimed to be a folksong scholar, except perhaps much later in life. There was also at one time a tendency, mainly by American scholars, to treat him as some sort of source singer. This would be very misleading, even accounting for the small amount of material he got from his parents.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:41 AM

Ewan McColl is one of those characters the mere mention of whose name sets brother against brother - a bit like Jesus Christ, really.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:40 AM

Fred and folk clubs if I might extend the drift a little:

Fred was quite an astute fellow who had been around the folkscene for many years. He recognised quite early on that he was an entertainer and like many another 'putting on an act', appearing on a stage. His stage persona was quite calculated and it worked! He got bookings in many clubs whilst other country singers could only manage a fraction of his bookings. It paid for his beer and all he had to do was dress up and stand up and sing, and we all adored him for it, and still do. If he wasn't some people's cup of tea or if they thought in some way he was a fake then that's their problem.

Don't forget that many of these latterday country singers had lost their old audiences to pop music and other pursuits, and so they embraced the folkscene? And some of us at least are very thankful that they did.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:29 AM

Dick -
well Vic , the reason it doesnt restrict her singing is that it was afterwards, yes it is superflous ,but i was only trying to say that it did not force or restrict her singing. of course it would not if it was done after. peter kennedy i suppose that was one of his tricks, the sort of caper he got up to. the bounder

As far as Hall and the Collector releases are concerned, it was almost certainly the work of Peter Kennedy

As far as McRae and the American release on Riverside, I very much doubt that Kennedy had anything to do with it. If I were asked to name a suspect, I would suggest Goldstein was probnbly (and inadviseably) trying to make Jeannie's singing more accessible to the American market the album was aimed at. This is no more than an informed guess on my part.

.... and calling PK a 'bounder' is probably more polite than any word I would use to describe his unseemly activities. He was, however, the most successful and determined British collector of his time and I am eternally grateful for the recordings that has left behind. It is a dilemma - like another figure, his legacy is much discussed a good while after his death.

Starship -
the guitarist/singer's name is spelled Josh MacRae.
Correct - and you are are right to point it out. I did know that but as is indicated by the indentation in my post this is a direct quote from the album's booklet notes. When making a direct quotation, I never alter the spelling or grammar of it.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:57 AM

Vic, is this the album you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji9PiiiTnkc

Yes, I was responding to Dick's link to it.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:20 AM

well Vic , the reason it doesnt restrict her singing is that it was afterwards, yes it is superflous ,but i was only trying to say that it did not force or restrict her singing. of course it would not if it was done after. peter kennedy i suppose that was one of his tricks, the sort of caper he got up to. the bounder

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:56 AM

I don't know how all these people missed him. Ewan and Peggy seemed to be everywhere you looked.

I don't see much point in discussing his style. He made a synthesis that seemed to work for him.

sadly he's not in a position to do it differently - even if you wanted him to do it all differently.

He had a bloody good go at it.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:18 PM

Probably not important but in the event it is or becomes so, the guitarist/singer's name is spelled Josh MacRae.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:01 PM

Vic, is this the album you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji9PiiiTnkc

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:10 PM

soory to digress but the accompanist here behind jeanie follows her voice very well, was this robin hall

No, it was Josh MacCrae* and I think but cannot swear that when I heard then first tracks first that they were originally unaccompanied (can't remember where I heard them first, it is such a long time ago) and I think, but again cannot be certain, that Josh's guitar like Robin's was added afterwards. It sounds to my ears as though it was.
The sleeve notes from the 2013 CD include:-

This CD, made from an early 1950s LP, features twelve songs from the repertoire of this great lady of Scots song with occasional guitar accompaniment by Josh MacCrae. There may be a few slight imperfections associated with the age of the original material, but we have tried to make the sound quality of the CD as clear and crisp as possible. We hope that you will agree with us that the quality of the music still shines through.

Early 1950's LP eh? Well Hamish Henderson did not arrive at her door in Aberdeen until late 1953 and I don't think that she made her first recording until the following year. The album was first released by the American company Riverside (RLP12-633) in 1960. No mention is made of who recorded it though it was "Edited by Kenneth S. Goldstein" and I know that he also recorded her during his Fulbright scholarship year in Aberdeenshire where his main informant was the great Lucy Stewart. The Goldstein archive is in the University of Mississippi and at one time I had a listeners pass for that archive and that may be where by "unaccompanied" singing memory comes from.
There is guitar on roughly a half of the 12 tracks and to my ears and in my opinion the guitar is totally superfluous.
What the album does offer is one of the finest recordings that she ever made. She recorded MacCrimmon's Lament several times and I take this (thankfully unacccompanied) version to be the finest. It is exquisite.

* Wikipedia gives his name as Josh Morse!!!

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:01 PM

Dick, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the post. I was thinking of something Jim had said.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:10 PM

A main difference between source singers and those who sing songs for a living is fundamental.
quote
that is not what i said[ you seem to be continuning my point erroneously
i compared revival and source singers ,very few revival singers rely entirely on gigs for a living any more.
here is the correct link thankyou vic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji9PiiiTnkc

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:12 PM

A main difference between source singers and those who sing songs for a living is fundamental. Usually <--- (note that word), source singers have other jobs or ways to make a living other than singing. Those who sing for a living usually <--- (note that word) develop better voices because they need to in order to make a living. The beauty of good unaccompanied singers who can entertain a paying audience is found in the adage that states "You can't run with a piano on your back." It makes travel easier as was once pointed out to me by a harmonica-playing friend. But then he didn't sing and play at the same time.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Are we still discussing Ewan MacColl’s singing?
If so were I to be pressed on what is the finest thing that I have seen or heard in a folk club over the last fifty four years then the answer would have to be MacColl’s rendition of “James Herries” in The County Hotel, South Shields in 1970.
Over the preceding and ensuing years I have enjoyed many a great night listening to both traditional and revival singers and musicians but a performance by MacColl and Seeger always stood out from anything else. Maybe it was theatrical or maybe because it would be a mini - concert but each time I saw them it was unforgettable. Only once, when we booked them in 1972, he appeared to have trouble remembering his words which surprised me a lot but on the two occasions that I saw them afterwards he was as sharp as ever.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:52 PM

what is your problem?
No problem, Dick. I was just pointing out that your link was wrong - try it for youself and than ask the question again.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:44 PM

matter of opinion vic, the accompanist does follow her rather than an impose a rythym ,why not let people judge for themselves? what is your problem?

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:43 PM

2told me that the leggy dancers in their micro-minis were not for me,"
They really do underestimate us oldies sometimes
Don't mind the tourist trad - it tends to keep the bodhran drivers out of the real sessions
In Clare, we send them up to Doolin where the tourist go to listen to each other
I think the saddest thing I saw was in O'Connor's pub where the Russell family used to play
The finest of them IOM, Micho was fed drinks by the visitors so he didn't interfere with their sessions - we never got to hear him play concertina for years, though he did give us a couple of songs
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:39 PM

soory to digress but the accompanist here behind jeanie follows her voice very well, was this robin hall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ick0uvA2M8M<

Please do not follow this link to hear Jeanie Robertson accompanied by Robin Hall because you will be disappointed.....
On the other hand, if you would like to hear Ewan MacColl giving full voice and singing unaccompanied the Child ballad no.24 Bonnie Annie then this is the link for you.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:31 PM

"did not exist then?"
It still does for the tourists,
I am sure that it does, Jim and in recent times both the real music and the erzatz have existed side by side. The last time that I was in Dublin for an extended time visiting my nephew was when Riverdance was at its height. One evening in the Temple Bar told me that the leggy dancers in their micro-minis were not for me, but if you crossed the river, you could still stumble on a worthwhile session.
But all these pubs were providing employment for musicians and dancers and I am all in favour of that.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:18 PM

soory to digress but the accompanist here behind jeanie follows her voice very well, was this robin hall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ick0uvA2M8M<

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:47 PM

"did not exist then?"
It still does for the tourists, the difference now being the real alternatives make it unnecessary
Pubs likee The Cobblesone and Hughes in Dublin produce enough good music to satisfy any music officianado and the weekday daytime session in O'Donoghue's is magic
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:41 PM

this is good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ick0uvA2M8M

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:34 PM

Bob Davenport

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:27 PM

Great Book Starry - particularly about Peggy's family
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:23 PM

https://books.google.ca/books?id=y645DgAAQBAJ&pg=PT325&lpg=PT325&dq=source+singers+remark+about+traditional+music&source=bl&ots=

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:58 PM

think you're all getting cabin fever- such a lot of aggression again- back to the subject before somebody mentions Bob Davenport....

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

for the record i think bob is a good singer regardless of what he wears or the category he has been put in

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:50 PM

the uk had a folk revival, do you agree vic, that if there had been no folk revival there would be no need for the two terms revival singer and source singer?.
neither would there be the necessity for singers such as fred jordan and bob lewis to dress up as cute peasants and allow themselves to be patronised.
I do not see any singers or musicians dressing up in this puzzling way in ireland , its a bit reminscent of the white heather club

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:49 PM

i said in ireland people just make their judgements on the merit of the singer musician that is how it should be....without that patronising cute peasant crap
So all that 'Plastic Paddy' nonsense in Dublin, Cork and Limerick tourist pubs did not exist then?

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:44 PM

"I'm afraid."
Agree totally
Ireland underwent several cultural revivals - the song and music being part of each
The 1960s 'Folk Boom' was an offshoot of the revival inspired by first Alan Lomax then The BBC
This was followed by ups and downs, then The Willie Clancy School and later, The Irish Traditional music Archive revived the flagging fortunes of the previous revival
That gradually grew till the present explosion of interest based on te work of the previously mentioned two
Prior to this, our generation belived that we were the last of the traddies
Paddy Glackin's brother Kevin, put it in a nutshell when he described having to hide his fiddle under his coat for fear of being beaten up by
his schoolmates - now they would probably clamouring for his autograph
This time I think they have the solution of a future cracked
Glad I was around to see it happen
Jim

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:37 PM

I'm beginning to wonder whether this site should be renamed 'Old Men Yelling at Clouds'.

The Simpsons

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:36 PM

vic, it is a fact that the uk folk had to be revived that is not arrant nonsense without a revival there is no need to have distinctions about revival singers and source singers because the word revival does not need to exist. n as i said in ireland people just make their judgements on the merit of the singer musician that is how it should be ,meanwhile people with your attitude patronise the source singer , it is not necessary for bob lewis to dress up as a shepherd or fred jordan to dress up as a farm labourer, the border shpherds produced fine music without that patronising cute peasant crap

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:27 PM

Aside from awkward accompaniments, I think many criticisms of Ewan's singing boil down to his frequent presentation of songs as historic documents or examples of a type—a worthwhile pursuit, but not one that best shows the personal connection between singer and song. But I'll happily forgive him his share of clunkers in exchange for Jock o the Side, Are Ye Sleepin Maggie, The Scranky Blank Farmer, The Bold Richard, The Baron of Brackley, and a few dozen more. He's a tremendous inspiration and I'm grateful for the wealth of his output.

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:14 PM

typo joe hutton will atkinson

Subject: RE: Critical discussion of Ewan MacColl's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:04 PM

it is an affectation of the uk folk revival because everywhere else there was no need for a folk revival,
More arrant nonsense, I'm afraid.
So we can take it then, that there was no folk revival in America, in Canada, New Zealand, Australia; that the twentieth century Czech and Hungarian classical composers weren't collectors and promulgators of their traditions; that fascist Germany and communist eastern Europe did not take their traditions and bend them to suit their political purposes in a warped revival?