The future of folk music in a post-Covid

Subject: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 11:00 AM

for Jeri

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: RTim
Date: 22 May 20 - 11:06 AM

Music will always have a future.....we just don't know what it will be yet....

Tim Radford...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 12:17 PM

Too many old acoustic folkies are not sufficiently equipped to consider the future..
They have enough problems relating to the present...

But maybe, just maybe, covid is the kick up the arse they need
to stop dwelling on an idealised & over-romanticised past...|???

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 22 May 20 - 12:42 PM

PFR, I think you're developing trolling symptoms since to started knocking about with that BS crew.....do ye no' wear a mask?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 May 20 - 12:44 PM

Which country are you asking about ?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:02 PM

Ake - no, my justifiable disdain of very vociferous reactionary folkies
has been consistent over all the years I've been visiting here..

Whereas your post here serves little constructive purpose...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:10 PM

ANY COUNTRY YOU LIKE , I THINK IT WILL DE FINE IN IRELAND

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:21 PM

Worst case scenario, covid will wipe out elder folkies
in poorer regions of the world..

Which could be devastating if they have not left behind written or audio records,
of their knowledge of local oral folk culture accumulated over a long history...???

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:26 PM

As I said over on the Job Doran thread, the future belongs to the young. Post Covid or otherwise. Us old fogies are too set in our ways for any radical change. I accept change is not always for the best but it is change or die as far as live folk (or most other) music is concerned.

I'm not worried about it. The past has gone. The future is yet to happen. Enjoy what we have today - whatever it is :-)

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:45 PM

The very nature of our music, based at grass-roots level, will ensure that its future will have a better chance of survival and even thrive above and beyond any other genre, simply because it does not rely on commercialism to sustain it.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Jeri
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:30 PM

"Trolling"?!

It's a worthy subject. I think we're going to be on hold until we get a vaccine, although it will be safer when endemic infections reduce a lot.

I think a lot of music, folk or other, is going to be recorded, or on-line. Concerts, bars or clubs, festivals - any sort of public gatherings - are problematic.

And Dave, the future belongs to anyone for whom it becomes the present.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:35 PM

The future can never become the present, Jeri. Tomorrow never comes :-)

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:40 PM

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:45 PM

The very nature of our music, based at grass-roots level, will ensure that its future will have a better chance of survival and even thrive above and beyond any other genre, simply because it does not rely on commercialism to sustain it.
so the more commercial festivals like cambridge might suffer temporarily?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:54 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCyC1dZiN8


.. where it's familiar, warm, cosy, and safe for old folkies...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:03 PM

I am reminded when people talk of "change" just how unsettling it can be for some people, it used to be so for me.

However.

Some years ago the company I worked for was taken over by a much bigger company, they closed some offices and amalgamated the staff into two office one of which I worked in. I was charged with making the adjustments to allow a greater number of people. In order to do this I moved one woman from one end of a large office to the other end so she would work with people with a similar field. She almost had a nervous breakdown. Her reaction was astonishing.

However.

I taught me a very good lesson and that is that change happens and you have to learn to live with it. In fact I also learn that change can be good as it makes you confront your own "staleness"

I have never worried about change since, bring it on.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:08 PM

Lullabies will do fine. They're the most centrally important of all folksong genres, and the one you'll least hear in a folk club.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:14 PM

In ENGLAND the big problem will be loss of venues with many pub closures in particular. I suspect that the number of classic guest+floor spot clubs will fall sharply. The licensed trade was reorienting towards meal service before the crisis and I think that this will be accentuated in surviving pubs further reducing the available venues for sessions. We may see more straight concerts in venues such and churches and village halls.

Big "marquee in a field" festivals will recover while town based venues will focus more on concerts as the number of surviving small venues declines.

The problem will be the availability of a format accessible to newcomers, who don't initially consider performing themselves, in the way that the classic folk club should be.

These comments are based on the state of the ENGLISH licensed trade pre coronavirus and its interaction with the folk scene.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:55 PM

In 50 years time, today's young folkies will be old fogies discussing how much better music was back in the 2010s and 20s.

DC

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: CupOfTea
Date: 22 May 20 - 06:09 PM

This is getting the cart waaaay BEFORE the horse. What needs considering is the future of folk music DURING covid!

This was a large part of discussion at a folk society board meeting where our president Charlie Mosbrook, who is not the "older" generation, (but still with decades of experience behind him) was blunt about folks whose income comes from their music are going to have to learn how to promote themselves online, or fall to the wayside. In trying to find ways of supporting locals and get some sort of concert series going, the depth of detail folks face is daunting, and figuring out/learning the technical "stuff" is going to be a steep learning curve and financial stressor for many.

This isn' t going to be "over" till a vaccine is availiable, on the scale of the polio vaccination program, so a year, year and a half? In the not even 3 months since lockdown here, the blossoming of online performances, singing sessions, distance collaborations is awesome! Finding creative solutions for passing on the music is the key to survival. I have seen & heard a wider range of performances in the last 2 months than I would in half a year, introduced to performers & traditions completely new, and strengthened existing connections.

This is building a foundation for "after" This is embracing community and enlarging it.
The folk who do this for love, and do not have to make an income from it, they're not going to stop. Zooming a lullaby to your grandchild may be a new tradition: one of many that will evolve during this transition from 2019's reality to the post-vaccine world we pray for.

Joanne in Cleveland, still trying to improve her Zoom sound...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 22 May 20 - 07:46 PM

"Folk" Music has never, ever, needed commercialism to sustain it.

If I am going to listen to, or watch folk music online. I will create a play-list of the artists whose work I like and play that. Why listen to poor recordings with lousy sound, performed by mediocre artists with the additional interruptions of any audience present clattering plates, coughing and talking.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:11 AM

In answer to Observer's last question - To emulate being at a folk club!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:25 AM

In Ireland there is extensive musical coverage of tradtional music and singing[ is that commercialisation or just exposure?]
my wireless is set on radio na gealachta, and every morning i can listen and most evenings between7pm and 9pm tradtional mirish music presented in a non commercial way, that wiil not change because of the virus. so folk music in ireland get state support it is funded [does that make it commercial] not in radio naeagaelchta case,but PERHAPS to a small extent in CCE CASE, A state fundedorganisation. to avoid commercialisation perhaps the uk should follow irelands example and state fund tradtional music?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:44 AM

The venues may be different, and possibly some organisers and singers will go and new ones start, but we'll be back up to strength by the end of the year, or the beginning of next year. I don't doubt it.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:07 AM

What's your definition of "back up to strength", Nick ? I'm afraid you're a lot more optimistic than I am. I'm not asking this to be awkward, I'm genuinely seeking information.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:13 AM

Are you saying nothing will change & we'll just go back to how it was Nick?- think you're dreaming there, but like the Premier league!

So you'd like to be nationalised, Dick?- from my experience of FF & FG politicians, they begrudge every penny spent on the music so good luck wit that.... maybe a SF government might be different, but that doesn't seem to be an option at the moment.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:14 AM

that was me

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:31 AM

"To emulate being at a folk club"?

My interest in "folk song" lies with the songs, not in who is singing them. So as previously stated if the future of folk music lies online then I will listen to well performed and recorded versions of the songs I prefer and like. The thread is after all entitled "The future of folk music ....." NOT "The future of folk clubs .......".

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:42 AM

jim bainbridge, radio na galctha has been great for years lots of irish trad music being played well,whatever you want to call it the radio state funding radio na gaelchta has been a pleasure to listen to.i agree with nick dow i am optimistic

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:54 AM

Dick,
   I'm well aware of the quality of the Irish language part of Irish radio- I know nothing of TV- I gave up on that years ago & that RnaG relies on state funding- what's your point?- all I said was I think the establishment probably begrudges every penny!

   I heard an excellent music programme on Radio Ulster last night with an Irish language presenter by the way if you need a change from RnaG!

I don't think my comments showed any lack of optimism...I simply said that things need to CHANGE and put forward a potential way forward (or backward if you prefer).

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:56 AM

Observer. You asked "Why listen to poor recordings with lousy sound, performed by mediocre artists with the additional interruptions of any audience present clattering plates, coughing and talking. I answered "To emulate being at a folk club!". I would have thought that it was an obvious tongue in cheek response to a daft question. I was obviously wrong. Sorry.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Dtm
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:20 AM

I agree with Peter in that venues will present the biggest problem because of the ongoing numbers of pub closures. The lockdown has probably accelerated the demise of many of them.
On the bright side I feel there will always be a market for live music of all styles and would-be performers will find somewhere to sing their songs. The general popularity of 'folk music' seems to go through peaks and troughs as the years roll by.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:28 AM

Dreaming or not, I genuinely believe my post above. We are not going to stop singing, it's in the blood. Sorry if this is too positive for some, but that's how I feel. You never know I might even be right! Stranger things have happened.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:30 AM

A lot of music has, for the time being, moved online. I don't know about FG and FF politicians begrudging money spent on music but the Arts Council (of Ireland) is very supportive at the moment keepong things going, musicians are being commisioned to make videos of their playing for example, Na Piobairi Uilleann's 'Piping ion the Parlour' is one initiative where Pipers under lockdown play music from home for an audience around the world.

I also saw, here or elsewhere, a link kenny posted of the lovely Nell singing online. The Willie Clancy Summer School is planning online events during the week the event usually takes place. and other initiatives are unfolding all over the place. Different things for different circumstances. Music isn't going away.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:19 AM

what is my point, what is my point?it works .
it is part of the mainstream, but it is not commercialised the poiltical establishment and arts establishment support it , if this was done in the uk and subsidised [ more money given to efdss ,would be a start] a similiar radip program in england to radio na gealtha,are there programs like this in scotlasnd and wales?
there would be no incentive to commercialise and change the essence of it, that is my point, awareness of ones own heritage and culture.
another alternatiove would be asimiliar programme to radio na gealtha whichincluded all culture sof the uk and including indigenous and immigranr cultures such as indian music, as well as english trad, but subsidised by government to avoid commercialisation. and hopefully no songs about cliiff pilchard

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:26 AM

another alternatiove would be asimiliar programme to radio na gealtha whichincluded all culture sof the uk and including indigenous and immigranr cultures such as indian music, as well as english trad, but subsidised by government to avoid commercialisation.
And how would that differ from the show that Kathryn Tickell already presents on the BBC?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:28 AM

oh yes and it was Haughey fianna fail for all his faults who introduced the examption from income tax for artists and musicians and in fairness it has been ff and fg who have been in government for most of the history of the irish state, not sinn fein, so sinn fein cannot take any credit for government assistance of financing tradtional irish music

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:32 AM

how frequent is the kathryn tickell programme is it on every day?is it part of the mainstream media, is it on at peak listening time

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Joe G
Date: 23 May 20 - 09:01 AM

Music Planet, which Kathryn Tickell is one of the presenters of, is on every Saturday at 4pm on Radio 3. An excellent programme that I never miss - though it's predecessor World Routes was originally two hours long rather than one hour

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 23 May 20 - 09:51 AM

DtG, our folk club, no clanking of plates or people talking, our speciality would appear to be munching crisps to provide some sort of weird percussion accompaniment :{)

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:12 AM

joe g, so one hour out of how much potential broadcasting,i am talking about a seven day schedule of at least two hours a day, and that is avery conservative estimate that does not take into account other trad music programmes on other radio stations. onehour a week is hardly comparable, there needs to be more

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:29 AM

school report the BBC must try harder

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Joe G
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:44 AM

Totally agree Dick - though there is also Folk on 2, occasional folk music on other Radio 3 programmes too, but much more would be very welcome.

I also wish the BBC in England would provide as much folk music TV coverage as BBC Scotland / Alba

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:51 AM

i will try and listen to it today altough the bbc are a bit idiosyncrtic last night i was not allowed to listen to a programme about billy bremner in my jurisdiction on fm so i listened on long wave on my wireless, what are they doing

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Observer :-D

From Fred Wedlock's "Talking folk club blues"

Then the barman started doing his bit for culture
On smokey bacon maracas and E flat cash register

We don't get much talking and plate clanking at ours to be honest but it does drift up from the pub downstairs sometimes. Funniest thing I ever heard was years ago when Bernard Wrigley's PA system started picking up the local taxis!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:09 AM

Dick - right now it takes more than enough optimism hoping the BBC won't be sold off and broken up for scrap,
by vindictive tory politicians [puppets of right wing media barons] who hate it..

However, free minded independent non commercial voluntary folk culture will better flourish unbounded,
on home made internet blogs, and more mainstream audio visual social media...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,G B-P
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:12 AM

If no one's already mentioned it, the Covideo folk club on FB is a very enjoyable and worthwhile endeavour. It's people sharing videos of themselves performing folk music, and was instituted in response to the current crisis shutting down gatherings of people interested in folk. Hence the portmanteau "Covid", "Video"... you get the picture.

I certainly hope folk clubs survive this, particularly as I took the decision to return to listening to and singing trad folk songs after several years away shortly before all this started. Personally I think gatherings in pubs/clubs etc will be legal again long before there is a vaccine, so at that point it'll be a judgment call for the individuals concerned as to whether or not they want to resume.

Gene.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jhim bainbridge
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:42 PM

Dick, I think we're on the same side really- but quite frankly how do you have time to listen to all this wonderful stuff on RnaG & elsewhere? Have you no potatoes to plant?
    In 1985-1999, when I lived in West Cork, near you, there was VERY little Irish music for MANY miles around- so little that a local Geordie was in demand to play for the tourists.
I remember a rather unpleasant & noisy Irish exile, back on holiday at a session in Arundel's of Schull (great pub, now closed) saying how great it was that the tradition was still alive.
My fiddler pal didn't like him much & said 'Aye but if it wasn't for a couple of Geordies, there'd be nowt here'- and he was dead right.

Almost all of the 'local' musicians who met for the ONLY session for many miles at Rosie's on a Friday had a background in the English or European folk scene (including you and I!) and so if that was the local catalyst for an improved situation in 2020, I'm very pleased about that.
BUT don't give me all this crap about a continuing tradition & that Ballydehob has always been a hotbed of the music -it hasn't- maybe things are improving - i hope so- but please stop all this nonsense about how much better it is in Ireland, it's very annoying to UK residents, especially ones like me, who know better!
I used to get a free crossing on the Swansea ferry to play music & was often told by tourists that my little session was the first decent Irish (!) music they'd heard after 14 days in Ireland.....

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sorry Jim you are out of touch with ballydehob present day scene,
and you are misrepresenting me ,
what i said was that irish trad music is heavily subsidised and is on mainstream radio radio na gealtha and other MAINSTREAM PROGRAMMES such as rte one, that it has exposure right now in may 2020.
there are many irish people now playing trad music in west cork some of this is due to CCE.
    The Bantry Branch of CCE IS IN ITS 50 TH YEAR , and has in all that time been run by Mary Tisdall and Tom Sullivan , Mary is from Bantry and Tom from Tralee, her brother Richie Tisdall has lived all his life in this area too and was playing while you lived here., in fact they all were, then there is Skibbereen CCE Who are involved with the Ballydehob trad music festival, which has been running for 11 years and is run by a comittee of irish musicians which include Ann Rredmond [irish]Marie Cotter[irish ] Sean Walsh [Irish]AnnR[nee Coughlan] is a native of Ballydehob and was teaching accordion when you lived here
Two Business owners who are also irish were playing music at that time, noel and ivan camier[ celtic spirt] Ivan now plays bodhran in the band Rubicon, Noel runs rosies bar and has been playing accordion at a number of sessions in his bar Francine Thurnheer[nee ORegan Irish] plays whistle and was playing and teaching when you lived here PATFLEMING irish] MARRIED TO Marie Cotter[ an irish native of Ballydehob , Both fine musicians. Seamus Creagh RIP was playing in Skibbereen regularly[ during your time and since] and had previously lived on Sherkin Island he was the postman here.
Seamus and Jackie Daly had played at the original Gabes IN BALLYDEHOB before your time JimmyCrowley played there and i saw him playing when dan o mahony owned the pub in your time
at the time you lived there there was also a band called take the floor[west cork skibbereen area. who played trad music and did a similiar repertoire to you they had three irish members, i could go on and on paddy barry who owned a pub in durrus and played the fiddle and his mate box player will cotter.
and i never mentioned ballydehob being a hot bed of anything but since you mentioned, i am duty bound to correct you
i am not talking crap, i have only said that there is more exposure on national radio in ireland than in the uk and that the fact it is subsidised means it does not have to be commercialised. how long ago was it that you lived in dunbeacon?, you are out of touch and not remebering accurately, you have lived in spain the canaries leitrim scotland ulster since you left west cork is that correct?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:27 PM

Here is a you tube clip of Tom and Mary, WHO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN BANTRY CCE FOR MANY YEARS IN MARYS CASE NEARLY 50,Fine musicians you undoubtedly remember them Jim and all the others i have mentioned all irish.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qk9KDYjcRM
good luck with your music and stay safe

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:31 PM

How's the future coming along in this thread..

Have we reached the 1980s yet...???

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 12:00 AM

pfr, i am sorry but i have to reply to misrepresentation of what i said or did not say,My POINTS AND conclusions were that it is DIFFERENT.
the future in ireland comes in to this because and as a result of the efforts of irish government and arts funding and mainstream media representation. plus the efforts of the piper society [wilie clancy school] and CCE, PLUS the efforts of numerous musicians/ teachers who go into primary schools and teach trad music on instruments[ whistle] to school children,
my whole point is that the situation is different in ireland to the uk. as Jim Carroll pointed out when it comes to snging tradtional ballds, that is difficult a lot of the time in pubs, that is as i understand it why unaccompanied singers clubs exist in ireland.
I am talking about 2020 PFR. This is what is happening in THE MAINSTREAM MEDIAin May 2020 in ireland
I do think it would be an improvement if there was more tradtional and roots music on the uk radio stations.
I am happy to play with musicans of all nationalities playing irish or scottish or english trad music or song,
Jim Bainbridge[ who i know is not racist] seems to be getting unduly concerned about the nationalities of musicians,I am an internationlist and am just pleased that a people[of all nationalities] are playing trad music and songs in this area. of course the area where INSTRUMENTAL TRAD MUSIC it is strongest is CoClare.
Ballydehob and West Cork are doing ok, though we have the Ballydehob trad music which occurs in april, the Fastnet marituime and Folk Festival in June, Chief ONeill Festival Sept IN Bantry, Fiddle Fair IN June Jim Dowling Uilleann Pipe and Trad Festival IN JUNE . ALL IN WEST CORK and four out of those five are run by irish organisers.
    but the really important people are the music teachers who teach trad music in primary schools that is one of the reasons why the future of instrumental trad music looks ok in ireland plus the state and arts funding and subsidised non commercial media exposure
PFR. There was a jesuit saying get them before the age of 8 and there yours for life
Jim Bainbridge do you remember Liam Kennealy [IRISH] who you used to do gigs with and who used to run the Ballydehob session for years,he sends his regards

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 06:24 AM

I hope listening venues will continue in the uk folk clubc or house parties give the opportunity for story ballads to be sung. this can be done in pubs in ireland but generally does not work apart from the occasional one . singers clubs are good in ireland but fewin number but there is not generally the opprtunity to accompany ballads, that is not a problem for me as i am happy singnng unaccompanied or accompanied, but it is nevertheless a restriction.
folk clubs and house parties circumvent this situation

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 06:40 AM

Iremember where i was on the night of Sophie du Plantiers murder, Iwas playing music in the courtyard schull west cork with Liam Kennealy and Jim Bainbridge.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 May 20 - 09:32 AM

Dick,

sorry for delay replying but have been making a shelter for our sheep... wild winds here this weekend....

   You are quite right that I'm out of touch with your local scene these days, and I think I said that. I almost mentioned Mary & Richard as a 1980s exception but they were in Bantry, 20 miles away as I remember, and I meant Mizen musicians.
Take the Floor were good pals of mine with a similarly eclectic repertoire, but like me, hardly CCE material-, as for Paddy Barry- you must be joking! he was a chancer and a crap player- a few of those about. Jamesy Kingston had been a good fiddler, but sadly declined by then...

I am NOT concerned with the nationality of players of Irish music, although I do incline to the 'can white men sing the blues' camp. My point was that 90pc of the trad (in your terms) music in BDH was played by the English & Europeans in the population - maybe it still is? that was a point meant to be in FAVOUR of the UK folk scene- many locals were amazed at knowledge of Irish music & quality playing of these incomers!

Rosie's was the ONLY pub in Schull/Ballydehob & west with a weekly session, run by Jane & Andy- I got there in 1985, a little earlier than you, I think & that is how it was- very disappointing really!
I've already given my view of the future for the music & Ireland has a head start there, and I'm delighted if the scene now is as good as you say- maybe you deserve credit for that?? but don't tell me that Ballydehob was a lost world of music in the 1980s- it was anything but!
Charlie Coughlan & his automatic keyboard was the local musical hero- nice chap but I once saw him set it to 3/4 time & go & get a pint while the 'music' continued!!
Now let's get back to 2020- not much of a prospect really, but we do need to think about the future & not the past...treat this a historical and objective snapshot of 1980s Ireland maybe?
ps give my best wishes to Liam & Ger- also --who was that ghastly female uillean piper who played in Kilcrohane in the 90s?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 12:26 PM

paddy barry was technically good he could get in to third position on the fiddle will cotter was a good playerition.
Bantry IS 10.5 MILES FROM Dunbeacon church where i lived and about 11 miles from where you were, not 20.
why are you bringing ballydehob in to this .
i made a remark about media and radio exposure of trad music, i did not criticise the uk folk revival neither did i say ballydehob was a hotbed of trad music[ ihave been back in dunbeacon not ballydehob for 3 years
there was irish musicians playing in west cork Seamus Creagh had a weekly gig in the corner bar.
the ghastly piper you referred to was actually a very.good piper, she[ was of irih extraction her parents were irish ] and played in a band with an irish musician called martin mcgrath who was living at that time in west cork and was from Kerry., she was a much better piper than the man who called you an entertainer who played a set of pipes without regulators [hugh quinn] from skibbereen, also irish
PADDY BARRYS granddaughter lives in ballydehob and there is a picture of her as a child playing at the weekly session that Cathy Cook[ [ that wone wasnothing to do with andy or jane] started which was held every week in Rosies, it still goes on every friday in different pubs[ i remember Charlie Piggott dropped in once back in 1995
it s people like anita barry that are the future in ireland

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 12:51 PM

Why bring Ballydehob in to this, is it to annoy me because i was kicked out by my ex in a way a dog would not be treated, I have not lived there for 3 years.
THE FUTURE IS SAFE IN IRELAND BECAUSE STATE AND ARTS FUNDING HAVE ENSURED THAT RADIO AIR PLAY IS FREQUENT , I AM AT THIS MOMENT LISTENING TO TRAD MUSIC ON RADIO NA GEALTA AS I WAS AT 8 AM THIS MORNING
that is not a crticism of the uk folk revival

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:02 PM

Re the Kilcrohane piper, BRUTAL would have been a better word.... I mentioned BDH because that's where YOU lived when I was there!! I'm not going to argue about mileages- come on!
Of course there was good music in West Cork then, but nowhere near the Mizen area- it was all electric & ballad crap
I've told you what I found in 1985 & stick by it- I WAS THERE- go and listen to your trad music- this is not of any interest to anyone else, we don't live in the same world, Dick, but if you're happy there, that's fine- enough now....

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:24 PM

Paddy Barry   may not have been the   greatest   fiddle player in   the   world   but his pub was something to be experienced, especially during the   new years day horse   race in Durrus, past the creamery.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 02:27 PM

but why mention it? , I was talking about National trad music radio coverage on radiona gealta,
I Never attacked the uk folk revival i,hope folk clubs still carry on I THINK THEY ARE GOOD PLACES TO SING NARRATIVE BALLADS.
i never mentioned ballydehob, ballydehob is irrelevant, why do you bring it up I was talking about media coverage on a national scale in ireland
why insult a musician from Kilcrohane.who was avery good piper, flute player and fiddler.. Geraldine Urwin, who played in the band Suifinn souffice to say Colm Murphy ONE OF IRELANDS LEADING BODHRAN PLAYERS WAS HAPPY TO RECORD WITH HER
now to get back to folk music in the future, the immediate future will see online development, whether that will continue when we return to a semblance of normality? I WOULD GUESS ONLINE TUITION WILL CONTINUE

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 24 May 20 - 03:09 PM

Paddy Barry was a character all right but very mean! I remember going to an arranged session in winter there about 1988. It was b... freezing in the pub & we all had coats on- there was an unused open fire.
Someone asked if he'd light it- 'ah no' he said 'you'll warm up when you start playing'!
We shamed him by going along to Wiseman's for some briquettes- what a pain.... no chance of a free pint- must have been mad! or maybe just keen?

suggestion- new thread about 'memories of Mizen music in the 80s' ??

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:52 PM

well cathy cook and i always got free pints on the house as soon as we walked in the fiddle was brought down and we had to play and never paid for a pint he appreciated what we did.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: theleveller
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:15 PM

I've seen more live concerts since lockdown than I have in years - on Facebook, YouTube etc. Dougie MacLean has done 32, Steve Knightley, Steve Tilston, Ray Hearne, Oysterband and loads of others have been posting stuff ever day. Best thing to happen to folk music in ages.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 05:16 PM

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:45 PM

The very nature of our music, based at grass-roots level, will ensure that its future will have a better chance of survival and even thrive above and beyond any other genre, simply because it does not rely on commercialism to sustain it. quote
True,
but guest booking folk clubs have paid a part in keeping standards higher in the uk,
what i would not like to see is singers clubs where people are unrehearsed and not singing folk, i would not be interesed in singing in such places i would rather stay at home and invite a selection of friends who like the same kind of music, an invite only house party would be more to my liking than people shuffling through bits of paper and singing bad versions of pop songs.
i am not saying all singers clubs are like that, but if i went a couple of times and it was . i wouldnt bother again

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:54 AM

How many clubs like that have you been to, Dick? I know of some people who commit all the crimes you mention but not all the time and I don't know of any club where they are in the majority. I find that,generally, the standard is high and I can live with the occasional unrehearsed non-folk song. But my experience is limited while you are much better travelled. Is it most clubs that are like the ones you describe? Half of them? 10%? Less? No need to name and shame, although it may be useful to know where to avoid. Are there clubs where most singers behave like this? Give us an idea how widespread it is.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 03:25 AM

Quote
what i would not like to see is singers clubs where people are unrehearsed and not singing folk, i would not be interested in singing in such places i would rather stay at home and invite a selection of friends who like the same kind of music, an invite only house party would be more to my liking than people shuffling through bits of paper and singing bad versions of pop songs.i am not saying all singers clubs are like that, but if i went a couple of times and it was . i wouldnt bother again quote

ok, so i would give singers clubs a try for a couple of times IF the standard and repertoire was not to my taste i would not return. So i am not prejudging a venue before i go.,
you see i live in ireland and tend to visit guest booking clubs as a paid guest , i have found the standard in guest clubs ok to good. so i am not saying the standard is bad in singers clubs but saying if it was, i would not keep going., so I think it is necessary to try and keep a decent standard otherwise some people will not go
What i can say categorically is that when i started going to folk clubs nobody sang from crib sheets, that is not the case now
I think someone like vic smith of bryan creer would be in a better position to answer that, they possibly have more expeience than me, why dont you PM them

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:39 AM

good to be back in the 21st century- I have little interest in the future of folk clubs, and hope that the coming generations will have the same respect for the tradition as we have

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:52 AM

jim.you mention a musician from kilcrohane and in an insulting way, you state you are only talking about the mizen head, well kilcrohane is on the sheeps head peninsula further than bantry 13.5miles bantry 11 miles
you wish to include her in your post yet exclude the tisdalls who lived closer.
that is illogical
i have an interest in folk clubs because they are an ideal venue for songs such as narrative ballads , you talk about respect for the tradtion, but this sounds like it does not include narrative ballads, narrative baalads get shown respect if they can be listened to, where else other than folk clubs do you suggest this aspect of the tradtion is suited ,possibly house parties ,but not noisy pubs.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:13 AM

GIVE IT A REST Dick!!- I've given my views & have no interest in geography- you don't agree with my views & I don't have any interest in that either!
Ireland and the Irish are great in many ways but non-irish (and Irish?) must get a bit annoyed about having your propaganda rammed down their throats- We lived there in two regions & had a grand time in both, but left twice- I'm just trying to restore the balance!
Your arguments remind me of evangelical vegetarians.

Leave your Irish dreamworld & move on!- we're talking post- Covid here!!

pubs may well be unrecognisable if there are any left.... - the locations for performance of long narrative ballads is your problem rather than mine...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:32 AM

no jim
it is you that brought this crap up, i am not pushing propoganda anywhere ,just explain what you mean, what you are doing is not about restoring balance, but misrepresenting what i said which has a connection with post covid future,
i never mentioned anything other than the media coverage ,you brought up ballydehob where you have not lived for many years
   the future in ireland for folk will be ok because the instrumental and song tradtion is widely represented in the mainstream media,and has support from the government and from the arts, that is a fact and is not an attack on the uk folk revival.
I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE MORE MEDIA REPRESNTATION OF FOLK MUSIC IN THE UK.I am sure you would too

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:04 AM

By 2017 25% of west cork pubs had closed. That trend has continued over the last three years and the compulsory covid closure means   many more will be unlikely to re-open. The smoking ban, drink driving, supermarket alcohol sales and some of the highest excise duties in europe make pubs an icreasingly unsustainable business model.   Random   guard checkpoints on even the most remote   backroads have destroyed many rural pubs. The   pub as a venue for folkmusic is shrinking   rapidly.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 25 May 20 - 09:20 AM

https://youtu.be/a7m5-P7fDUg

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 May 20 - 09:34 AM

No Dick- you just keep rabbiting on about how much better things are in Ireland- that's an opinion, but it's getting a little wearing, especially from a blow-in, much of whose musical living has been in England for many years, so let's have some balance here
Move on, for God's sake!!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 09:48 AM

no i do not, i keep saying that the mainstream media coverage of tradtional music is more in ireland than it is in the uk that is a fact not an opinion.
jim,stop misrepresnting what i am saying.
furthermore i have said how important it in my opinion is for uk folk clubs to reopen, because they are listening venues where narrative ballads can be sung and also sung with accompaniment.
jim ,your continual attacks are wearing including criticising me for calling a festival i run a shanty festival,just feck off

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Nemisis
Date: 25 May 20 - 10:10 AM

Have a laugh gentlemen

O wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad fra

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 20 - 10:59 AM

Run Rat Boy, run...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 25 May 20 - 11:20 AM

Dick, I've been trying to move this on for a few exchanges now- that's the end of it- you have my views & you have yours.
Another of my views is that you are a pain in the arse and always have been--   give my best to the lovely people of Ballydehob & leave the thread to people who might have something to say..
                      adios tonto    Jim

ps I'm not looking for any more bookings at your shanty festival....

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:27 PM

I found this on the fastnet maritime folk festival website and have highlighted some of the text in capitals, why the objection to it being referred to as a "shanty festival"

"2018
marks this festival’s 7th year running. Coordinator Dick Miles is pleased to welcome Martin Carthy back to the festival for the second time, along with old favourites such as Matt Cranitch and Jackie Daly, Steve Turner, Richard Grainger and many more. For the first time, we welcome Tom Lewis. SEA SONGS, SHANTIES, dance, craft market, artisan food and craft stalls, sea songwriting competition, music in the pubs and Ballydehob Community Hall. Most events are free except for headline concert.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:47 PM

This is the present in the COVID-19 crisis:

Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues. A new "parody" of this song has been added, an ironic full-circle from the infirmary, to the streets of Laredo, and back to the infirmary.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 20 - 02:31 PM

I wanted to post something here at some point,
but not..

" punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 25 May 20 - 10:59 AM "

that's an "oops.. wrong thread, too may tabs open.."...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:27 PM

I would have preferred to talk with jim by pm but he is not a member

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 26 May 20 - 05:21 AM

We've said what we need to, Dick, now let people get on with the point of this thread- in the scheme of things it's a minor matter.

However, it needs to be discussed, but as I've stated my preferred scenario earlierI won't repeat it, but an end to commercialism would be a three word summary?
So GOODNIGHT FROM ME and GOODNIGHT (maybe) FROM HIM

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:40 AM

the future of folk music in post covid uk might be to look at what has happened in other countries CCE, receives more government funding than the EFDSS, for a start I would like to see more arts AND sports funding going to EFDSS
Here is an article from living Tradtion magazine
The EFDSS - A Future
by Roger Marriot - Issue 27 June/July '98
        




{graphic}

There will be few readers of The Living Tradition who are members of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, and probably many who really care little about it. Yet many (and certainly readers in England) owe it more than they realise, and should be concerned about its future.

A little history
The history of the EFDSS falls into three phases. From 1911 to 1939 it was concerned chiefly with the propagation of morris and sword dances, and the so-called Playford dances, first under its founding Director, Cecil Sharp, and after his death in 1924, under Douglas Kennedy. Although Kennedy attempted to shift the emphasis to traditional social dance as early as the late twenties, he met with considerable resistance from members, and it was only with the outbreak of war in 1939, that he was able to achieve his aim. Post-war, with a staff of about thirty, and several regional offices, and based upon traditional dance, the EFDSS was extremely successful. (In the early 50s they were queuing in the street to get into dances in Birmingham.) A country-wide local network was established, and many young people joined. There was collaboration with the BBC, and sponsorship of collecting activities in music and song. The EFDSS invented the folk festival, and several week-long teaching courses were held each year. The annual Albert Hall festival filled the hall for two nights and a children's matinZe. There were grants from central and local government, amounting to a sizable proportion of its annual income.

It is worth remembering that the Society at its best was far more than a successful organisation. It was a fellowship, within which friendships and marriages flourished, and which provided a possibility of social contacts across classes and throughout the country.

After Kennedy's retirement in 1961, there was a loss of strong central control. The members came to see the Society not as a mechanism for promoting dance and song to a wider public, but as a body to provide for their own leisure. They came to regard folk song and dance as recreations rather than as arts. Slowly the EFDSS slid downhill, losing staff and cutting back on its teaching activities. Simultaneously, there was an increase in commercial activity. The Society faced a situation where government funding was decreasing, and activities capable of generating money were being taken over by others. By 1986 the Society made redundant its last member of teaching staff, and decided that it could no longer bear the financial risk involved in promoting the Sidmouth festival.

In 1987 the Society's governing body came to the conclusion that the best option for its future was to sell the London HQ, Cecil Sharp House, and relocate into cheaper premises, putting the surplus into an endowment fund. This proposal met with furious opposition from a pressure group, the Friends of Cecil Sharp House. The desire to keep the building seems to have come from London and Home Counties members who used it as a clubhouse, and those with fond and nostalgic memories of the fifties. After a bitter campaign and an election marred by fraud, the Friends gained control.

In 1988 there was an offer of £2.3 million on the table, with a possible increase if certain planning consents could be obtained. This would (at 1988 prices) have provided adequate housing for the offices and library, and an endowment fund of about £1 million to run them. The sale was rejected by the new administration.

The battle for the Society was bitter. It destroyed the fellowship.

So... Does this matter in 1998? Do we need a traditional dance and song society of any description? I think we do, and for the reasons that follow.

The case for a national traditional arts body
First is the maintenance and development of the Vaughan Williams Library, the foremost national repository of material concerning traditional dance, song and music. It contains Cecil Sharp's library, many of his notebooks and manuscripts, other important collections of papers, and films, photographs and sound recordings. Any person making a serious study of traditional musical arts will, sooner or later, come to need the resources of the Vaughan Williams Library, the focus of knowledge in the field.

Second is the encouragement and co-ordination of collection and research to further our knowledge. The tradition may be everlasting, but knowledge and understanding of it, as in any area of study, is subject to continual development.

Third is teaching in all its aspects - the dissemination of knowledge, and passing on the tradition to future generations - the running of workshops and courses, the publication of all types of teaching material, and teaching necessary skills.

Implicit in these activities is the development and propagation of a philosophy. Why is there a purpose in passing on a tradition? What is this purpose? What is the tradition? How is it most effectively passed on? Under what conditions does tradition flourish? Should there be a traditional arts movement ? If so, what is it? Is 'folk' an appropriate term? Is it the same as 'traditional'? Can either flourish in a world dominated by commercial interests? And so on... To recognise the questions is as important as to have answers.

Fourth is the upholding of standards. By this, I do not mean a sterile puritanism, engraved in stone, but the keeping of a watchful eye, to see that development does not destroy. This is a dilemma that faces all revivalists. We who today enjoy traditional music, song and dance should remember that we can do this only because the tradition, once near death, was revived. In an age of mass communication we can never be certain that the tradition will survive unaided - the social forces which attack it are always there. (In the past there was a trickle of innovation entering a lake of tradition. Today, there is a fire-hose aimed into a bucket.) The purpose of 'maintaining standards', is not to inhibit artistic growth and development, but to ensure that those who enter traditional arts, knowing little of them (as many will today), start from a basis of authentic tradition, and not at several stages removed from it. And, I would maintain, the concept of 'art' implies that some is good, some bad.

Fifth, there is need for a national coordinating mechanism, so that those involved in the traditional arts movement can work in co-operation, with each other, and with related bodies outside the folk world.

Sixth, there should be a national point of reference for contact with the traditional arts of other cultures.

Seventh, there is the maintenance of a disinterested presence, working within the traditional arts for the benefit of all, rather than for a particular section.

Currently, the most visible part of the world of what is commonly called 'folk' music is dominated by festival organisers, promoters and entertainment agencies, whose ability to provide bookings, fees and publicity has great influence over performers. A second, but growing influence, is that of the increasing band of arts administrators, who both solicit and dispense grants and subsidies. Underpinning this structure is the commercialisation of much of the folk scene, and its division into punters and performers. This world of folk has now much in common with 'show-biz', and the motive of personal self-expression is perhaps the dominating feature, to the point where the use of traditional material has been abandoned, and even a claim to be creating within a traditional framework is extremely difficult to sustain. This, I feel is an important point which must be clearly understood. Whether or not the performer is paid does not matter. What matters is motivation. Is the performer wishing to carry on a tradition and share it with others, or is he (or she) just hell-bent on getting up on a stage? Does the material come first, or the performer? (Remember Stanislavski: 'One must love the art in oneself, not oneself in the art'.) As Gerry Epstein has pointed out (Living Tradition No. 24), there is a difference between maintaining a tradition and providing entertainment.

There is clearly a need for a presence which can speak and act for those whose attitude to traditional dance, song and music is not primarily, largely, or even at all, derived from considerations of profit, or power, or career; a presence which can say, 'This we do because we believe in it, and if necessary, we will raise the money to do it at a loss, because it is right that it should be done'.

Such a presence would speak for those (and their numbers are consistently under-estimated) who wish to be neither paid performers nor paying punters, but participants . They carry on the traditional arts in a traditional way, meeting in pubs, clubs and each others' homes, and perhaps have a greater claim to be considered traditional artists than most. They have a fellowship based upon a shared enthusiasm.

Present state of the EFDSS
Forty years ago, the EFDSS had about 10,000 subscribing adherents (full members and associates). At the end of March l997 it had 3127 members. By now, assuming that the previous rate of decline continues, it will probably be less than 3000. Over 20% of members are reliably estimated to be Old Age Pensioners, and a survey a few years back revealed the average age of members to be over sixty years. This situation is not improving: to be blunt, the Society is literally dying out.

If one examines what the EFDSS actually does, a depressing picture emerges. Overwhelmingly the members are dancers, not singers. Furthermore, the dances they value and practise are not traditional, but revived dances from printed collections, or modern inventions in a similar style - the more complicated the better. (One recent invention has nine separate movements in thirty-two bars.)

Today, although each EFDSS member receives the Folk Music Journal and the quarterly English Dance and Song, there are perpetual complaints that both are 'too academic', and frequent calls to abolish the FMJ, often accompanied by the statement 'I throw it away as soon as it arrives'. A recent survey of library usage found that very few readers were EFDSS members.

The position of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library must be seen in context of the EFDSS structure.

The EFDSS is a charity, subject to charity law. It is also a company limited by guarantee. Each member, like a shareholder, has a vote at an AGM, and the members elect a governing National Council, which constitutes a board of directors for the company, who are also trustees of the charity. (The EFDSS only became a charity as late as 1963. The desire to obtain relief from rates seems to have been a consideration as important as any desire to do good to non-members.)

Cecil Sharp House is held as a subsidiary trust. (The EFDSS is the trustee.) The property is held 'to be used in perpetuity for the purposes of English Folk Dance and Song'. In practice, it is let out for other activities, and contributes to the Society, which could not now survive without the rent it generates.

The Vaughan Williams Library was created a trust in 1996. Again, the EFDSS is the trustee. It has no income except what the EFDSS gives it, what is contributed by the National Folk Music Fund, and grants from the Vaughan Williams Trust. It is accommodated in Cecil Sharp House. Library direct earnings (from admission fees and so forth) are slight.

The National Folk Music fund was established in 1958 to endow the Library. It is independent of the EFDSS, and though worthy of support, it cannot be said to have been the success hoped for at its launch, and assistance from the Vaughan Williams Trust has been vital to the Library for some years now. However, this grant has recently been cut, and (according to a well-informed source) further cuts are probable. Around 40% of the Library income is from outside the EFDSS.

Moreover, an offer of £250,000 from the VW Trust, to aid in relocating and expanding the Library within Cecil Sharp House, has now been withdrawn. The reason appears to be the Society's unwillingness to allow the VW Trust to have any representation on the Library Trust. (Considering it is the Vaughan Williams Library, this seems odd.)

Where does this leave us all?
The campaign of the Friends of Cecil Sharp House resulted in the building becoming Listed Grade II, which undoubtedly diminished its market value. The subsequent creation of inter-locking trusts within the EFDSS has made any reorganisation more difficult.

The EFDSS is now literally moribund. The prospect that a body of dancing pensioners could themselves have any serious impact on the traditional arts is not to be entertained. That they could organise and finance others to execute plans to promote what they do not themselves appear to value is improbable. With the abolition of its regional organisation it has ceased to exist as a national body. Despite having regional seats on the National Council, candidates to fill them are difficult to find.

The cost of running what is left of the Society and providing its members with periodicals is not covered by subscriptions. As at November 1997, the EFDSS had financial reserves well below the one- year reserve recommended by the Charity Commission.

The prospect of raising income from members or events is negligible. The likelihood of a grant from the National Lottery is remote. The Sports Council has cut its grant already and may do so again. Even if a substantial grant were obtained, the clarity of purpose and the machinery to use it does not exist. (The EFDSS has a new administrator every two or three years.) Without the rent from Cecil Sharp House, erected as a centre for English dance and song, but largely let out to the British American Drama Association, the whole organisation would collapse.

None of this matters. If the EFDSS folded tomorrow, traditional dance and song would hardly notice. What does matter is the Library.

Unfortunately, the Library Trust Deed contains a clause stating that it must not be moved out of Cecil Sharp House, which is situate at 2, Regents Park Road, London. Why was this clause inserted?

Events of the last few years suggest that the current EFDSS sees the Library, not as a valued asset, and the key to any traditional arts movement, but as a bargaining counter. By requiring the Library to be kept in Cecil Sharp House, those who control the Society have a card to play for the retention of this building, even if the books, manuscripts and recordings were in boxes in the basement. (Remember, the EFDSS turned down £250,000 rather than lose any control.)

Is there a way forward?
Common sense suggests that the way forward is for the Library to be made secure by whatever means, and in whatever location, and the Folk Music Journal and teaching activities to be associated with it. The EFDSS as it now stands, and Cecil Sharp House as a dance hall, are irrelevant to a future. The evidence is clear that the great majority of present Society members, whatever they say, are in practice not focussed on traditional arts, are not Library users, and are not active in teaching, performing, or research.

Such a reconstruction seems unlikely. There are gifted and dedicated people within the EFDSS who hope to reform it. The trouble is, there are not enough of them to have any effect. Reform would require the consent of the members, unless they vote themselves out of control. It would require money. It would require a vision extending beyond the latest complicated dance learned at a local club. It would require the recruitment and involvement of persons to whom the Society, as it stands, has little to offer and much to repel. In sum, it needs a revolution.

The eventual death of the EFDSS seems inevitable. In that event, the future of the Library would be uncertain. Legally, it may pass to a charitable body with similar aims and objects. Realistically, this would probably be some other library - a university's perhaps - as a successor body would have to find at least £50,000 p.a. and accommodation.

On the other hand, it is not impossible to create a fresh organisation, built on traditional arts - music, dance, song, story-telling - so as to teach them and pass them on, and seeking to create a new fellowship. It would always have the option to support the Library. There is plenty to do, and many willing to do it.

The EFDSS is dying - let a fresh torch pass to younger hands

Links, further information and recordings:

Read the response - printed in a later article

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 20 - 07:32 AM

A nice bit of history about EFDSS in the last century. There are people making a name on the folk scene who weren't even born when that article was written.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:25 AM

Good, Thats encouraging, but will there be a flourishing uk folk scene will there be enough venues to support professional singers? will some go into other music?
i am sure morris dancing will continue,once this is over.
i have had a few tunes on sunny days outside with another musician observing social distancing.
i think it will just take a little while, but small venues that do not have huge overhead costs and are fairly informal and where singers can be spaced out will possibly do well in the interim?but really it is a guessing game

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 May 20 - 10:45 AM

Any young mudcatters unencumbered with decades of baggage
care to contribute realistic contemporary ideas about the future for folk music...???


errrrmmm... any young mudcatters...???

.. anyone under 60...??????????

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:00 PM

I "went" to a Zoom song circle last night. There were participants in Virginia, Maryland, North Carolina, Alaska, West Virginia, and California. Over the weekend, I went to song circles in California, Oregon, and Washington State. As I listened, I researched the songs and started Mudcat threads on a lot of songs that hadn't been discussed here. Every moment of those gatherings was positive, and every person sang their best. And I heard and interacted with some wonderful singers. And we laughed a lot.
I don't think I'm going to be able to sing in person with people for a year, maybe more. But I sure enjoy singing online, and I'm learning a lot this way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:08 PM

Any young mudcatters unencumbered with decades of baggage
Young mudcatter is an oxymoron.

My impression is that a lot of youngsters in the folk scene regard this site as a bit of a joke.

I have been a regular critic of EFDSS but a posting of a 22 year old article to portray what they are doing deserves some correction. Here are a couple of Tweets illustrating what is happening in lockdown/

Folk educators, register for our FREE online conference on 19 June for presentations, practical sessions, discussions, knowledge-sharing and networking with a focus on NW England. https://t.co/XRGbnT8X1i pic.twitter.com/HGNcsBeopC

— EFDSS (@TheEFDSS) May 13, 2020

Not sure if these will embed properly but the links should be ok

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:56 PM

Thankyou for the up date.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 20 - 04:57 AM

22 year old info- some folkies are on about a 1954 definition- can we have a reality check please- this is 2020!!!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 May 20 - 07:41 AM

Thank you Guest, and your point is??????????????

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 20 - 08:25 AM

my point is that the thread is about the FUTURE not how it was in 1954 or 1998- that is ancient history now irrelevant.
I believe you said (I precis from memory) that you are an optimist and things would soon return to normal?
You must be barmy if you think that - 'back to normal' is not an option!
THAT is my point- what's yours?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 May 20 - 08:55 AM

Well that's got that sorted out! Not only is forty years of the Folk Scene irrelevant, but you can also foretell the future! My word what a talented Guest you are. You haven't been playing with your crystal balls again have you?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,talented guest
Date: 27 May 20 - 03:49 PM

The folk scene was not irrelevant, it's obviously the basis of what we have today. What is irrelevant TO THIS THREAD is chuntering on about what happened years ago!
I don't need a crystal ball to see that this virus has changed everything-that's the REASON for this thread!!!! if you think that it hasn't, you must live under a stone somewhere- I for one hope it has changed a lot, especially politically, and I'd hope the 'folk scene' will change too.
   Folk music isn't that important really, but a few ideas rather than your mindless sarcasm would be appreciated, or maybe you do still live in 1954?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 May 20 - 03:49 PM

The point is GUEST that as we said earlier folk music is much better placed to survive and thrive than any other genre as other genres are too reliant on commercialism and rarely have much of a grassroots level.
Luckily over the last 20 years or so folk music performance has spread out in all sorts of formats and venues so there are more options. When one fails we find other options.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 27 May 20 - 06:32 PM

There seem to be two opposing sets of ideas here

1 Folk music is in some sense 'roots' and not commercial
2 A flourishing folk 'scene' is one where there is government funding and venues that can support professional singers

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 20 - 06:48 PM

I wouldn't underestimate the grassroots power of commercialism. I suspect the single largest category of web-based amateur performance right now is teenagers doing TikTok videos of the Floss Dance from Fortnite. Which is not really a creation of the communal folk psyche.

That said, the folk scene has adapted well, considering how shit Zoom is. Well enough to demonstrate that folk clubs didn't serve much purpose even before the virus came along.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:04 AM

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous - PM
Date: 27 May 20 - 06:32 PM

There seem to be two opposing sets of ideas here

1 Folk music is in some sense 'roots' and not commercial
2 A flourishing folk 'scene' is one where there is government funding and venues that can support professional singers, quote
no that was not my opinion.
i believe a flourishing folk scene is one where government funding[such as ireland]can support all all aspects of folk music , not just professional singers
In fact in IRELAND in the 21st century because of the oversupply of good trad musicians and the lack of folk clubs,and diminishing number of pubs many musicians and singers have had to got the UK to make a living, but the grassroots.instrumental side is flourishing, this[the flourishing part] is partly to do with state funding and media coverage
one area in the uk where social dustancing might be easier to make happen could be folk camps.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,talented guest
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:43 AM

The division of the music has been ongoing for some years now, with huge growth on one side of informal song and music sessions all over England. It seems like every village in Northumberland has a 'trad' session these days (pre-virus, of course), but not only there, much further south as well.
Sandman, you have often praised the financial help and exposure given to young Irish musicians, and you say the Irish 'roots' scene thrives?

You've also often bemoaned the parallel lack of help in England? However, all this informal music in England has happened without such help, indeed the sessions are sometimes the subject of varying degrees of ridicule from the public, and the BBC is only now realising that there may be something worthwhile about folk music, even if their efforts are pretty wooden & uninspired up to now.
Your idea of folk camps sounds a bit like the pre-war Woodcraft Folk events & may be a possible step forward- especially for socialists with little spending power?
At the very least, it's a positive idea for a future where folky social gatherings like clubs and festivals, and even sessions? become impractical

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 07:01 AM

well i have only heard about folk camps apparantly 21st century, but the woodrcaft folk were post war, i went in the late fifties early sixties, the BBC did have a programme in the 1960s called hold down a chord which was influential.
However what i stated earlier was that radio coverage was more extensive, particularly radio na gaelchta[which is susidised and presents trad music in a non commercial way] and that this has been partly rsponsible for the relatively flourishing grassroots of the music.
of course because irish musicians were forced to emigrate in the 20th century this has strengthened the grassroots trad music particularly in cities, alot of this took place in pubs, this may or may not be a problem n the immediate futre.
northumberland in my opinion it is an english exception, there was also southern english style in then isolated o places in the 1980s east anglia and devon. I Lived there then, i did not think it was as strong in east anglia as northumberland, but you are a better judge, if you dont think more sympathetic and extensive media coverage would help., fair enough but i think you do

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,talented guest
Date: 28 May 20 - 09:23 AM

Sorry Sandman- I meant POST war re the Woodcraft folk- there were folk camps before the war, though, it isn't a new idea but may be relevant again soon.
Re media coverage of folk music- anyone who has a pc, internet radio or smartphone can now listen to any station anywhere!
It may be that the Irish scene you mention has benefited from good media coverage in the past, but I can listen to your Irish stations anytime I like so maybe there's no difference now?

Also I think you seriously underestimate the number of song/music gatherings in England these days- Sussex & Gloucestershire spring to mind among others

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 May 20 - 10:21 AM

Dick, you seem to be missing the reality that only in short bursts does English media and authority recognise our folk culture. This has been the case for centuries. Irish, Scottish, Welsh have always shown a much greater interest in their culture mainly to assert their separation from the dominant neighbour. A little progress is made now and then, but any assertion of Englishness is nowadays seen as nationalism and in fact anti-globalism, and many of us are wary of being appropriated by the far right. Tourism also has something to do with this. English tourism largely relies on scenery, stately homes and more elite culture. Its folk culture is made very little of. We would all like a fairer slice of the public funding but with the current regimes this is highly unlikely.

Which is why we just get on with it, provide our own funding and run lots of free events.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Anway Steve, what i have said is not a critism of the uk folk revival, more a concern and a wish to see it thrive more and fair play to people like yourself who make it happen

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 May 20 - 11:26 AM

Like it or not, youtube and other similar audiovisual internet media sites
are amply demonstrating that the future is already happening..
and has been for some time...

The technology needs improving over the next few years,
and we can be fairly certain such positive progress is inevitable...

I'm one of the folkies who has never had any interest in folk clubs,
so I've no entrenched vested interests standing in the way of new ideas...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:44 PM

I am taking part in Zooming purely at the moment as an observer. Our local singarounds are Zooming away and there are plenty of others I've come across. I like to have the opportunity to accompany others so I prefer the real thing, but TSF have just started an international Zooming forum and whilst I'm only a spectator I'm looking to get a webcam and get involved. I can see the Zooming continuing as we get back to meeting up and then the 2 running side by side.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:24 PM

Something I'm thinking about for while lockdown goes on: learn to play with a loop station. (I detest recording and anything that resembles a phone call, so even if Zoom was less crap I'd still hate it).

Recommendations?

I want this to be utterly minimal. Needs to work with an ordinary lapel microphone (i have a shoeboxful) and play through a domestic hi-fi (or maybe computer speakers). No pre-amp or computer interface. Operated by a few foot buttons. Might be nice if I could feed it drone sounds off a CD Walkman or my grooves off my pocket Korg Kaissilator, but not essential.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:52 AM

I have been spendin 58 minutes every other day with another singer, swapping songs down a landline. songs are about listening, the old fashioned landline does the job fine for me,i enjoy listening to one quality singer singing trad songs,rather than zoomimg and getting 50 per cent good, if i am lucky, for me going out playing music is also about face to face REAL socialiSIng, BUT IF I WANT TO IMPROVE I LISTEN ONLINE TO SPECIFIC PERFORMERS,in my case.. such as Seamus Creagh

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:02 PM

YOU'LL GET MUCH BETTER SOUND DOWN A LANDLINE THAN VIA THE AVERAGE PC

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:07 PM

NO YOU WON'T

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:09 PM

.. unless maybe your 'average' PC is over 30 to 40 years old...???

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:03 PM

you must have a crap phone!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:11 PM

BT...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:47 PM

But it sounds like you are still listening to 96 kbps mp3s on dial-up modem...!!!???

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Joe G
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:52 PM

Presumably guest doesn't know how to connect his PC to his hifi - or plug his headphones in to the sound card!

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:34 AM

The sound quality of a VoIP link will be better, but nothing can beat dialup for latency. And if you're trying to play along with sonejody, that matters more.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Joe G
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:19 AM

Ah latency rather than sound quality - in that case shouty GUEST's comment makes sense

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:33 AM

wtf is latency- sounds like a crime to me

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 20 - 07:04 AM

latencing with intent

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:33 PM

So if it's the same anonymous loud mouthed GUEST as last night,
this blatant ignorance about latency is clear admission
of pompously SHOUTING UNINFORMED OPINIONATED bollocks...

This GUEST should keep gob shut on matters of the future of Music Technology relating to folk music;
while reading up and watching youtube tutorials on the subject...

Somehow doubt that'll happen, though...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:15 PM

Maybe shouty guest has better things to do than worry about kbps latency Voips & suchlike crap- like sitting in the sun and growing veg rather than issuing ignorant abuse- maybe he/she doesn't give a f... for your Music Technology & just likes to sing his/her songs rather than all your computer one-upmanship?

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:22 PM

Someone's got bonnet full of resentful bees, and hostile misconceptions...

Funnily enough, the future don't care what you think or do,
and may never even miss you when you're long gone
to narrow minded old folkie heaven...

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

The future of folk music after Covid should be enhanced by what has gone before, but surely lies in people themselves rather than all the technology mentioned here.

The future is not Zoom 2.0, or I hope so anyway.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: JHW
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM

Too much to read here but "the future belongs to the young. Post Covid or otherwise. Us old fogies are too set in our ways for any radical change. I accept change is not always for the best but it is change or die as far as live folk (or most other) music is concerned."

Perhaps a consolation for being old is that we won't be here when todays youth reign supreme, the place will be littered with cans and pizza boxes and we won't have to worry about it. Nor the absence of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The future of folk music in a post-Covid
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

Not so JHW. People my age (70s) are embracing Zoom and putting videos on YouTube in large numbers. I'm absolutely certain that if we ever get round to losing the Covid threat, all of the old ways will restart alongside all the new ways of online communication. Both have many advantages. You are right we won't have to worry about what happens when we pop our clogs but many of us want to leave a decent legacy behind us so that things will continue and improve after we've gone.