Origins: Folk music stolen for movies

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 10:16 AM

"then we need to accept that anyone can use it."
Absolutely Steve - the copyrighting of 'arrangements' needs to be nipped in the bud too - all folk songs are "arrangements" because of the folk process
I've always toyed with the idea of a fund being set up that can be donated to by singers recording traditional songs commercially and ploughed into the research and preservation of these songs - not compulsary - maybe, but a show of gratitude to those who gave us our songs
Organisation like the National Sound Archive ans EFDSS are always (justifiably) pleading poverty when they are asked to do something
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:48 AM

On a similar theme, are PRS still insisting that organisers of folk events fill in those stupid lists of songs and pay for the privilege? I remember there was a lot of bile as a result of this when it first happened but I haven't seen much in that way for the past 3 years. I think most people made up a list of titles and put 'trad arr. after them in the hopes that Paul McCartney and Elton John weren't adding to their millions out of it.

My twopennorth, if we want our music to remain in PD then we need to accept that anyone can use it. I don't have a big problem with this, as long as they don't put their (c) on it and start charging us to sing our own songs. I haven't actually come across this happening anywhere so it probably isn't rife.

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 May 20 - 04:47 AM

Michael Wood's Story of England is a six-part BBC documentary series written and presented by Michael Wood and airing from 22 September 2010. It tells the story of one place, the Leicestershire village of Kibworth, throughout the whole of English history from the Roman era to modern times.

This is being re-broadcast during the lockdown. Music by Howard Wilkinson. It has a recurrent theme of Green Grass It Grows Bonny.

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 03:29 AM

Scarborough Fair, sung by Yorkshire lead miner mark Anderson made it as far as 'The Graduate' - Don't suppose his family saw too much of the royalties
For me, the best use of traditional songs for movies was John Tams use of field recordings for the superb but now virtually unobtainable (I've tried) 'Ill Fares the Land', about the evacuation of St Kilda
Songcatcher was another great, and the use of field recordings by Pasolini for both 'The Decameron and 'Te Arabian Nights' - exquisite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 May 20 - 10:39 PM

Many songs which were collected from traditional singers were copywritten by the collectors, whether or not they made significant alterations. I believe the Lomaxes, the Warners and others have done this. The next question is whether others should profit by the efforts of those who were living memories or those who sought them out.
Many groups have used music without attribution, often out of ignorance, calling it public domain. Should Cecil Sharp's efforts be ignored, especially s he is reputed to have written some of the songs he "collected?"
Schooner Fare did it by mistake. When their attention was called to the error, they paid royalties and, I believe, corrected the error on later album releases.
Should the movies and their composers, with their vastly greater resources, not be held to the same standard?

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:58 PM

How about the 18th century Robert Tannahill song to the tune of "Lord Balgownie's Favourite",
Gloomy Winter
Then just listen to the them tune from the film "The Piano": allegedly composed by Michael Nyman.
The Piano

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:18 AM

The title is "Southampton" and it's credited to James Horner, who wrote most of the original music for the movie. It's only the first few bars which are taken from "Leaving of Liverpool". I suspect this was entirely intentional, but it's unrealistic to expect a movie to credit a composer's influences.

The comparison with "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" is a false one - that was an infringement of the composer's copyright. This is a few bars taken from a tune in the public domain.

It seems to be quite hit-and-miss how films deal with music. Usually all the music used is listed in great detail where it is from commercial recordings or composed for the movie, but where incidental music is part of the live action often both the music and musicians are not credited (although everyone else, down to the teaboy, gets a mention).

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: GUEST,Ed Silberman
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:40 AM

You can't steal a folk song cause no one owns it. Or maybe everyone does. There's a reason it's called public domain.
\

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: cnd
Date: 25 May 20 - 12:06 AM

It's an unfortunate problem I've found that older movies (even through the 1970s/80s) would often not credit music if it wasn't written for the movie, played a fairly minor role, or a litany of other possible reasons. Especially folk songs.

I don't think it was anything intentional on the parts of the movie makers, just a kind of standard practice at the time; they didn't think it was terribly important.

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 May 20 - 11:12 PM

The reason I put stolen in is because the basic melody is used without attribution, even though the derived melody has become different.
For a more egregious example, consider "The Lion Sleeps Tonight."
If it must be changed, perhaps Movie music derived from well know folk music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: GUEST,Mud Elves - ATTENTION
Date: 24 May 20 - 08:57 PM

Is there some way you can remove "stolen"...in this thread's
title?

---

Aw, garg, it's OK. -Joe-

Subject: Origins: Folk music stolen for movies
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 May 20 - 08:25 PM

If you listen to the DeCaprio "Titanic," the music in the scene of boarding the ship is clearly derived from Leaving of Liverpool.

How many other examples can we come up with?