good aspects of uk folk clubs

Subject: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 11:07 AM

I think that the format of the guest booking uk folk club has much to offer in the future, They have been essential places for many perfomers The only viable alternative might be house parties
What i like about them particularly is that they are receptive listening venues for those songs such as narrative ballads and contemporary songs that tell stories, and venues for story tellers without music to perform, this part of the repertoire is more difficult to perform in noisy pubs where people do not necessarily want to hear songs and music but go to the pub to drink and socialise., and are not receptive to music
the same applies to singers clubs that do not book guests
Folk clubs in the uk are also less restrictive about accompaniment of songs than the singers clubs i have experienced in Ireland .
I can sing for a whole evening either unaccompanied or accopmpanied, so the restriction in irish singers clubs that i have been to does not worry me particularly if i can sing with accompaniment in folk clubs in the uk
I would like to thank all the organisers of clubs some of whom ran clubs for over 40yearssome 50 who have made all this possible. However the future lies with young people organising something that u continues the listening aspect of folk clubs or house parties rather than the wallpapermusic of open mics.
there is a difference between the uk folk revival and the irish tradtional music scene, one has benefited from extensive mainstream media and radio coverage and state funding , the other one has not to the same extent, they are different one is not better than the other they are different.Both at this point rely upon pubs or rooms in pubs
I would like to make categoricaally clear that i hope the uk format of performing in listening venues may continue for a long time, and that I am happy to keep performimg singing in UK folk clubs, or any other listening venues. neither do i find it necessary to have alcohol on the premises. I recntly did Norwich folk club[no alcohol] and enjoyed the venue immenseley,.
thanks again to all the folk club organisers who have kept the venues going ,you are heroes. if there are other good aspects of folk clubs that i have overlooked, please carry on and lt us be talking positives

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: JHW
Date: 25 May 20 - 03:04 PM

"Folk clubs in the uk are also less restrictive about accompaniment of songs than the singers clubs i have experienced in Ireland".
Do they not like accompaniment there or do they insist on it?
The flexibility of voice alone can indeed be a benefit, some performers never use an instrument.
cf Harry Cox singing Barley Straw on another thread.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 03:14 PM

Cork singers club, skibbereen singers club, have rules about it i dont mind, i just practise the songs differently. the goilin club in dublin allowed me one song on concertina, they all have very good regular singers and i enjoyed singning at all of them

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 May 20 - 03:46 PM

My experience of singers clubs in Ireland is rather limited but my Guitar was "frowned" upon in one and in another I got the impression that the organiser thought my friends and myself where too good **. He wasn't very welcoming. A very strange thing to experience in Ireland.

** He was definitely wrong there!!

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 03:56 PM

Lewes folk club has an excellent addition which is, its workshops.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:08 PM

I just about stopped going to folk clubs in 1996 after our Stratton/Bude one went into demise. The next nearest was the Garland Ox in Bodmin, nearly an hour's drive. It's a bit like that round here. The estimable Vic Legg seemed to be in charge there (Dick'll know all about this). The Bodmin one is not in that pub any more. I'm eternally grateful to the Tree Inn club in Stratton, without which I would never have played music. The list of guests we had there was stunning. We had Andy Irvine, Liam O'Flynn, Martin Carthy, Wizz Jones, Roy Bailey, Bill Caddick, the House Band, Ron Kavana, Wood/Cutting, Martin Wyndham-Reid, the estimable Brian Peters, Vin Garbutt, many another...but the club was very supportive of anyone who wanted to have a go. I didn't but I was "bullied" into it! You did NOT want to hear my harmonica version of Star Of The County Down!

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:30 PM

Steve recordings i have heard of your harmonica were good

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:17 PM

Yes its an odd paradox that the very thing that Child etc. valued - their joy at finding an Elizabethan folksong preserved in isolation in a remote community of the The Appalachians, is the very thing that threatens the revival.

I've never lived anywhere where where I couldn't get to a folk club if I wanted. When I lived in Nottingham, I remember saying on Mudcat that I could get to a folk club seven nights a week, and being greeted with total disbelief. In fact most nights there was a choice of venues.

Having said that, English folkies are a very varied bunch. Most of them totally out of sympathy with the views on what constitutes folk music held by the bloke living next door. They all yearn for universality - but their pernickety views are the very things that keep the movement small and provincial and politically insignificant.

I have noticed that most people earning a living from folk music - keep a tight rein on expressing their opinions for fear of alienating an audience that is constantly threatening to disappear. In a way MacColl's outspokeness is really what makes him sound like a voice from the past

In the 1950's and 1960's , there was such a profusion of people who felt in accord with 'folk'. It was hip to think of yourself as being part of an exclusive set, and why not prune away a few of the excess branches with acid remark an accusations on invalidity....its a luxury professional folksingers haven't permitted themselves for about thirty years now.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 01:58 AM

yes, good points Al.
The reluctance of professional performers to air their views doe snot imo help the direction of the uk folk revival, it is very understandable though, because posts on internet forums are often not read properly and are then misrepresented.,As i have very recently experienced.
The lack of body language when attempting internet discussion is a major flaw in the ability to use it as a method of communication
Ewan MacColl was involved in a folk club which had a strong policy, is this a good or bad aspect of a Folk club?
That is a question?
I do not have any problem with this , if a club says its a blues club or a contemporary folk songwriters club or a tradtional music club or an acoustic music club or a trad and contemporary folk club, you then have a fairly good idea of what is being offered., nobody is forced to go.
However from a commercial and artistic point of view some might argue that this was restrictive.
if a uk folk club offered me a gig and said we are unaccomapnied only, i would do it, i would regard it as a challenge.
another good aspect of uk folk clubs is that it offers a platform   for performers to improve.
Lewes folk club offers workshops as well which i think is a good idea and an aspect i would like to see happen more often.
I have been a performer operating mainly in folk clubs for 45years plus and i have enjoyed the opportunity to earn a living playing the music i like in folk clubs.
   Ireland and the UK are culturally different, the uk folk revival is neither better or worse than irelands folk music scene is DIFFERENT[ NO MORRIS DANCING IN IRELAND FOR EXAMPLE] however Media coverage is more sympathetic and more extensive in Ireland,and i believe that if there was more media coverage in the uk and more state funding that this would be beneficial to UK folk clubs and the uk folk scene., and The EFDSS
I hope this post is not misrepresented. if it is . it will become apparent why professional perfomers are reluctant to air their views

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:19 AM

I stopped going to folk clubs 30 years ago when my local folk club [ Bradshaw ] started booking pop singers. People were even singing Beatle's songs FFS

Dave H

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:41 AM

State funding for "Folk Music"?

With what is going on at present the "State" has got far, far, more important things to spend it's "borrowed" money on. Don't see why they should fund anybody's hobbies and interests.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 03:44 AM

observer, would you lie to hear trad music on the mainstream media?

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 May 20 - 05:07 AM

Ah, the open mike, Arrive with your five mates, talk loudly while other singers are on stage, clap and cheer when your mate is on then bugger off - would this be a fair summary?

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:31 AM

as i understand Observer, music normally comes under Arts Funding?

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:18 AM

The music I want to listen to, I can listen to whenever I like. I do not need it to be provided for me on mainstream media. I buy music by artists I like, I do not expect any Government to subsidise that. But there again Dick unlike you I do not, nor ever have, relied on making my living from music so I understand that your perspective differs greatly from mine. Current times must be extremely alarming for professional musicians, especially when it comes to gauging the willingness of people to crowd into venues that will be full of complete strangers to listen to performances. There is also the undeniable possibility that across the whole of the UK, as far as "Folk Clubs" go, the number of pubs that existed in February 2020 may well not be the number of pubs that reopen once the lock-down is lifted. Landlords will want people in spending their money, not people who occupy valuable space for three hours and buy three orange juices. Nevertheless I sincerely wish you the very best of fortunes once the "new normal" establishes itself.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:34 AM

'I do not expect any Government to subsidise that'

I Ireland the Arts Council has a grant scheme supporting artists to meet the cost of recording. It is very widely used, I hardly buy a CD that isn't helped by the scheme. I think it helps a lot of musicians and singers to get a recording out that wouldm't have been made without the support. Don't knock it too easily.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 20 - 09:40 AM

True enough, but in those days the media was the government. There was a recognition that we would learn some English folksong and dance at school.   inherent in that was a belief that our country's folk culture was something we should know about.

The idea that English culture is just kept in the champagne cupboard for the toffs has come about because government has relinquished its duties in cultural education.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 20 - 10:17 AM

i was watching Mama Cass Elliot singing a lusty version of Dinks Song on Sky last night. Such a beautiful song with a tragic genesis. What is wrong with having creative people like that involved with and drawing others into an acquaintance and perhaps eventually a love of folk music.

I got an e-mail from Marc Sullivan's sister yesterday. I never realised Mark was only about eight months older than I. God knows he must have though he had a career for life in folk music. In 1965 when I met him - he was damn nearly virtuoso standard on guitar and folk banjo.

As it is, we managed to do with all that creativity and energy what Thatcher did with British Steel - and i fear for the same breed of British snobbery.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:26 PM

GUEST,Peter Laban - title of the thread is what? good aspects of UK folk clubs. That being so, it is irrelevant what happens, or used to happen, in Ireland.

Looking back folk clubs in the UK had many good aspects and many poor aspects. My personal experience over the years, early 60s to present, has been that there has been a steady decline, as many just simply lost their way trying to get people through the door by trying to please too many people who basically were not in the least bit interested in folk music, all they wanted was a chance to play aged pop songs, or anything but folk. If I want to listen to Buddy Holly songs I'll listen to Buddy Holly singing them, not someone making a ham fisted attempt at it.

The current pandemic, taking particular note of who it affects most, means that until a vaccine is found and proven then "fings aint goin'to be what they used to be" and if you look at SARS then that could be a very, very long time [SARS - no vaccine after 19 years]. I would love to see what, in the light of our rather uncertain knowledge of Covid-19, what any risk assessment would be regarding house concerts, which seemed to be the direction things were headed as the way for professional musicians to make money as attendance at folk clubs was falling off and fewer and fewer clubs were booking guest artists.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 26 May 20 - 12:27 PM

I agree with the description of open mics above, and would add that the difference between then and folk clubs is that no one listens to you at open mics however good you are, apart from your own mates, and everyone listens to you at folk clubs however bad you are.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:14 PM

I understand your point about pop songs, Observer, but by the same token surely you would rather listen to Ewan MacColl singing dirty old town than someone do a covering it at a folk club? Personally I would rather hear a good rendition of Not Fade Away than listen to a poor performance of Lord Randall. Preferable to both would be Martin Carthy doing False Knight on the road but that would be special and he may follow it up with a BeeGees song :-) But, yes, folk clubs should be primarily songs in the folk style. Let's not go down the route of what that may be!

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 20 - 10:28 PM

I would like to point out that one of the reasons Buddy Holly songs are so popular is that they are quite easy to play, and if you are starting learning to perform music - you could do worse.

Traditional music is by and large bloody demanding stuff. If you're so unmusical that you don't understand this, I think you'd be better off sticking to singing in the shower. And I mean this just about ordinary traditional stuff - not the complexities heaped upon it by DADGAD guitars etc

Just ordinary songs - Black is the Colour, The Galway Shawl, Brigg Fair, The New Deserter ....there is real substance there. One problem is that good folksingers make it look easy. So time and again you hear, people who think reading from a folder , or repeating the lyrics as an act of memory get up in folk clubs and they really haven't thought about the story they are telling - much less how to preserve the drama and entertain the audience.

Of course you can say the same about Bob Dylan song enthusiasts. I'm not suggesting all the sins are on one side.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 20 - 02:45 AM

als points illustrates the lack of places for people to perform any kind of live music., these days in the uk
SOME trad songs do have ONLY two OR 3 chords,and are easy to play murshim durkin, cockles and mussels,BARNYARDS OF DELGATY, ON top of old smokey.dicey riley, do me amma,black velvet band, spancil hill, step it out mary, worried man blues, banks of the sacramento,lovely joan,nutting girl, blow the man down, gallant frigate amphitrite.john blunt

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 27 May 20 - 02:49 AM

Sorry DtG, you picked a poor example. As much as I admire and fully recognise the genius of Ewan MacColl as a songwriter, purely as a matter of personal taste, I cannot stand his singing [Cannot stand Bob Dylan's "singing" either for that matter] and would far rather listen to others singing his songs. Exception that proves the rule sort of thing but as stated that is my personal cross to bear.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 20 - 02:54 AM

Sam Cooke said that for a song to be memorable it had to be simple. His song writing skills are pretty indisputable. He also said I say, as a singer grows older, his conception grows a little deeper, because he lives life and he understands what he is trying to say a little more. And I think this gives. If a singer tries to find out what's happening in life, it gives him a better insight on telling the story of the song he is trying to sing. Maybe some folk singers should take a leaf out of his book. Without getting shot of course.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 May 20 - 03:55 AM

'GUEST,Peter Laban - title of the thread is what? good aspects of UK folk clubs. That being so, it is irrelevant what happens, or used to happen, in Ireland.'

But is though, isn't it? It's a good example of support for the culture and how it makes it thrive. Hundreds of young people are playing this music in Ireland at a very high level and are supported by the Arts council to make recording.

Perhaps take a leaf out of that book, see what is possible in other countries than England (because that's what this is about rather than the whole UK).

Perhaps it's all political, this music is, always was and always will be a minority interest. But you can make choices, look what other countries do to support it or be insular and dismiss that as not relevant to your situation and bicker on ad nauseam about the same singer, thirty years dead and cherish your old grudges. Move on, encourage, stimulate and build on what is or was there, it seems an easy choice, looking in from the outside.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 May 20 - 04:52 AM

i agree Peter.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 20 - 04:56 AM

Yes you can do all those folksongs with two chords. You can do them with no accompaniment.

Accompanied or unaccompanied is immaterial. Only the completely ignorant would think that this was determining factor.

The point is that theres a lot in folksongs. Even if they look like nursery rhymes. They have depth.

Have you seen Ron Kavana's version of The Wild Rover? Its a song that is so much better than the rugby club give it.Perhaps the point we need to start from is deanding respect for our artform.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:09 AM

'Perhaps the point we need to start from is deanding respect for our artform.'

Somehow telling it has already been dismissed on this thread as 'hobbies and interests' , not deserving of any (state) support.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 May 20 - 07:43 AM

observer - you don't like Ewan , you don't like Dylan....

sort of begs the question, who is it you do like.
what paragon of folksong has blinded you to to the singing talents of these two.?

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 27 May 20 - 07:54 AM

Folk music Peter is NOT about people making money from it. If that is your metric then if in Ireland best start in on "Country & Western", you will enjoy a far better chance of success.

For the vast majority who are interested in "Folk music" IT IS an interest and a hobby and IN THESE CURRENT TIMES interests and hobbies do not deserve state support.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 20 - 08:09 AM

The same can be said of the Royal family Observer.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 20 - 08:20 AM

From my profile on TheSession. It's been up there for donkeys' years and I still agree with it.

I am an untutored harmonica player who loves Irish traditional music with a touch of Scottish and Northumbrian thrown in. I’m pretty serious about "doing it right" but this music was also my main outlet for having fun. I mean, if you’re not having fun, what’s the point. About 0.00237% of us can make a living out of it, so the rest of us had better accept that we are doing it for fun, I reckon.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 27 May 20 - 09:49 AM

you're right about folk music not being exclusively about making money.

however it is about giving respect to the origins of the song, and passing on a vision. otherwise its about nowt.

yes you can do Muirsheen Durkin fidgetting the two chords and playing them in the wrong places, reading it from a folder or a tablet.

But to communicate the 19th century performance style music hall brashness, ebullience and   optimism and the resonance to emigrant Irish families in all the countries of the world that Irish people were going to, after and during the famine years.......that is something to aim for. Moreover someone who can relate that to young lads coming over here to work in contemporary times....I reckon someone should entitled to charge for having developed those interpretative powers.

Of course if you haven't discerned any difference between the bloke with the ringbider and the serious doubts about G and D7. You won't
really understand why any folksingers occasionally get paid.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 27 May 20 - 12:07 PM

Didn't know that the Royal Family was keen on Country & Western music DtG ;{)

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 20 - 02:38 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 03:43 AM

I would have that that during lockdown hobbies and intersts were of very important mental health for people everywhere.
i have certainly found that the extensive media coverage of irish tradtional music on the irish radio stations comforting and uplifting

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Socialisation.
a good aspect that has not yet been mentioned, internet socialisation is different from actual socialisation,
clubs in my experiencein the past [and they all vary in this respect]on occasions offer group activities such as canal boat holiday sing songs, walking /singing holidays the club or some of the club go away and hire a cottage etc

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: JHW
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:02 AM

Some of the best nights at Folk Clubs are when there's a guest who doesn't turn up. The room is fuller than usual and there are more than enough good singers to fill the night. There is no need for a guest and indeed there wouldn't have been time.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 May 20 - 08:07 AM

'Folk music Peter is NOT about people making money from it. If that is your metric then if in Ireland best start in on "Country & Western", you will enjoy a far better chance of success.

For the vast majority who are interested in "Folk music" IT IS an interest and a hobby and IN THESE CURRENT TIMES interests and hobbies do not deserve state support. '

That's not my angle and I never suggested it was. Support for making recordings works in many ways, making music available, giving it circulation etc etc. It doesn't only support the musician, it ensures music is there for the listener, which I would suggest is important during the current lockdown, contrary to what you seem to think.#

The Arts Council is also, for example, supporting an initiative by Na Piobairi Uilleann, commissioning pipers to make videos during lockdown that are posted on social media and reaching a considerable audience. It's keeping music out there for those interested and gives, musicians the opportunity to play and have an audience. You may not think that important, a lot of people do.

And for feck's sake let's the old Country and Irish cliché out of it. Some people love that, so what?

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:42 AM

Well said Peter, the thing that gives meso much pleasure is that i can listen as i am right now 740am to RNG and hear non commercial trad music it is wonderful

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:40 AM

Coming late to this discussion, but back to the original question re good aspects of folk clubs. It may be stating the obvious, but they are, on the whole, friendly and welcoming community based places where like-minded (and even unlike-minded!) people can gather: I have made a good many friends through attending such clubs, and heard far more good music than bad (the latter, anyway being to some extent a matter of taste and opinion!) On attending a club that's new to you, usually someone will come and welcome you, ask how you are and where you're from, etc, and I hope I do the same for any new faces at our clubs.
The other good thing, on the whole, is price: 3 hours' entertainment for anything from £4 to £12 at the clubs I frequent: compare that to the cost of a night at the opera, ballet, theatre or a big sports match!
Regarding funding, in Scotland we have "Creative Scotland" which replaced the former Scottish Arts Council: musicians can apply to CS, but they tend to favour "innovative" projects and not support core funding, as the TMSA (Traditional Music and Song Association of Scotland) and Scots Music Group found to their cost when core funding was withdrawn after the changeover. There are other charitable trusts too who may help with one-off events. And Simon Thoumire of Hands Up for Trad (Scottish Trad Music Awards) in association with Stonehaven Folk Club have set up an appeal fund to help professional folk musicians who lost all of their income pretty well overnight with lockdown.

Subject: RE: good aspects of uk folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:11 PM

Tattie thats good.