Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)

Subject: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:42 PM

More trouble in my native land. Well ensconced in the tradition, collected by Roy Palmer and yours truly (twice) however I cannot find a reference to it anywhere. It seems too recent for street literature and does not fit in with the Music Hall, unless it's a patriotic song referring to a particular conflict. Does anybody have any knowledge of the song. You will find it on the B.L. Sound Archive under my collection or Roy Palmers. I remember Mike Yates telling me it was a very common song in his collection. Where did it originate?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:12 AM

Have a look in Roud. It is number 5386 in his index. There are several late 19th century printings listed, plus mention of the Music Hall singer Dan Crawley.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:26 AM

Incredibly interesting historical song
We recorded it from Walter Pardon
Jim

MORE TROUBLE IN MY NATIVE LAND
From the singing of Walter Pardon

It was far, far away on the banks of the Nile,
Some thousands of miles from his own green Isle,
A brave Irish soldier, a gallant dragoon
Read his mother’s letter by the light of the moon,

He stole from the camp, that little note to read,
The news that it brought made his stout heart bleed,
While Pat was fighting at the head of his band
His mother was evicted by the laws of the land.

And the tears rolled down his sunburnt cheeks,
To drop on the letter in his hand.
Is it true, too true,
More trouble in my native land.

It told how the widow could not pay her way,
There came the agent one dark dreary day,
To burn down the cabin for the trifle she owed,
The widow and her children were cast on the road.

Though she’d one son a tar, afloat on the foam,
Another a soldier, both far from home,
Carrying your colours against the dusky foe,
While the warm-hearted mother lies starving in the snow

And the tears………………         

It told how a neigbour, a kind friend indeed,
As if sent from heaven to the outcasts in need,
Took them to her cabin where the fire was burning bright,
The widow and her children wept tears of delight.

I know I’m doing wrong, the poor creature said,
By giving you a shelter in this humble shed,
But such laws of these, gladly will I spurn,
My home, it shall be your home till your son shall return.

And the tears………………

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:39 AM

I have just checked my note to this song on the CD 'I Wish There Was No Prisons' (MTCD372), where George Spicer's version is included. Part of the note reads:

This song, under the title Trouble in Your Native Land, was written by an Irishman called Tom McGuire and popularised on the Music Hall stage by Dan Crawley (1872-1912). It is interesting to see how popular this song became with English singers, who often called it The Banks of the Nile or else The Gallant Dragoon, especially at a time when Irish emigrants to England were struggling to find accommodation ('No Irish Need Apply') and work. I don’t know whether or not the song’s popularity indicates a feeling of understanding (and sympathy?) between working class people from Ireland and England, or whether it simply suggests that sentimental songs, no matter what the subject, were highly popular in the latter half of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 26 May 20 - 06:43 AM

This is the George Spicer text:

Far, far away, on the banks of the Nile
Thousands of miles from his own green isle
A brave Irish soldier, a gallant dragoon,
Read his mother’s letter by the light of the moon
He stole from his camp, this message to read
The words that were in it made his stout heart bleed
For while Pat was fighting with the rest of his band
His mother was evicted by the laws of the land

Chorus: And the tears rolled down his sunburnt cheeks
Dropped upon/on the letter in his hand
“Is it true, too true?
There’s more trouble in our native land?”

It told how a widow who couldn’t pay her way
Was turned in the street on a cold winter’s day
It told how another, a true friend in need
Offered her a shelter she surely did need
“I know I’m doing wrong” this poor old creature said
“By finding you a shelter in this poor old humble shed
It’s against the laws of Ireland, such laws as those I spurn
My home shall be your home ‘til your son shall return”

Chorus

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:50 PM

Thank you both very much for taking the time and trouble. I am slowly ploughing through all my recordings with a view to publication, So I may need your help again. Please keep safe.
Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 26 May 20 - 02:52 PM

Some minor differences in wording, but nowt major.

https://sussextraditions.org/record/banks-of-the-nile-the-far-far-away/

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 May 20 - 03:00 PM

I've managed to track down Dan Crawley's grandson Fenton Gray, who still sings music hall songs. This might be interesting. I'll get back with any news.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 26 May 20 - 03:18 PM

Printed in one or more of the little song books titled 'Come-all-ye' or 'Old Come all-ye's' and printed by the Derry Journal at intervals from 1916 to the 1950s. Some pdf copies are within the Inishowen Song Tradition microsite at itma.ie. The essay I wrote describing them has been superceded because more editions have been discovered.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 26 May 20 - 07:09 PM

Loads of info now thanks to you all. I've followed it up and traced the sheet music through Fenton Gray's website, and it transpires that Harry Castling wrote the song. I've swiped a bit of info from a website and I think Jim might be interested Castling also wrote 'Put a bit of Powder on it'.

HARRY CASTLING (with thanks to Fenton Gray)

One of the great lyricists of the Music Hall, Harry Castling could not play a note on the piano, according to his obituary in the Gloucester Citizen (28 December 1933). He nevertheless had many hits, including Charles Bignall’s What Ho, She Bumps (with A.J. Mills, 1901); Marie Kendall’s Just Like The Ivy (with A.J. Mills, 1903); Charles R. Whittle’s Let’s All Go Down The Strand (with C.W. Murphy, 1909); and Kate Carney’s Are We To Part Like This, Bill? (with Charles Collins, 1912). Lily Morris sang his and Herbert Rule’s Turned Up (1924); and Don’t Have Any More, Mrs. Moore (with J. Lloyd, as “James Walsh”, 1926).
Like many of the songwriters of those days, Castling was destitute in his later years. Fred Godfrey’s youngest daughter Peggie (1912–2001) remembered that she and her mother ran into him in 1933, much the worse for wear, in a Lyons Corner House in London and bought him something to eat. He died in a London hospital in December 1933, leaving three daughters (Nottingham Journal, 28 December 1933, p. 4).
Castling was one of Fred’s favourite collaborators. They were particularly active in 1907–08, but continued to work together sporadically into the 1930s. Several of their songs were substantial hits, including: I’ll Tell Tilly On The Telephone (1907); Meet Me Jenny When The Sun Goes Down (1907); I Want You To See My Girl (1908); When They Ask You What Your Name Is (Tell ’Em It’s Molloy) (1908); and Take Me Back To Yorkshire (1910), which Noël Coward selected for use as a typical Edwardian-era song in his Academy Award–winning 1933 film Cavalcade. Australian star Billy Williams, “The Man in the Velvet Suit,” successfully sang and recorded their It’s The Only Bit Of English That We’ve Got (1907); Put A Bit Of Powder On It, Father (1908) and Save A Little One For Me (1909); while Mark Sheridan scored with In The Days That Are Coming By-And-By (The Budget Song) (1909).

I'm a wiser man now. Keep safe
Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 20 - 03:11 AM

"I don’t know whether or not the song’s popularity indicates a feeling of understanding (and sympathy?) between working class people from Ireland and England,"
Apart from Walter's singing, I have no experience of this song - much of what has emerged here makes sense and I'm grateful for the information
It's not the type of song that I would have regarded as outstanding (over sentimental and music-hallish), but what immediately struck me was the similarity of sentiment between it and the Napoleonic songs, in that it suggested a sympathy for a cause espoused by two people, while being divided by politics, were united by their individual problems
The newly emigrated Irish were regarded as 'the enemy' because they were used by the employers to drive down the wages of the indigenous workers; the effects were dramatised superbly in Elizabeth Gaskell's 'North and South'
At the same time, there was a Europe-wide movement to improve the lot of the working man
This is not unlike what happened at the beginning of the 19th century when the French Revolution created similar parallels - Melville's story, 'Billy Budd' was one of the outcomes

The Irish Famine produced very few songs; as Nicholas Carolan once
said in a lecture on the subject, "People were too busy dying to sing and make songs"
The aftermath and the ongoing consequences of an at-least badly handled natural disaster produced many hundreds of songs throughout the rest of the century
I may be over-complicating a simple song, but I think this could well be one of them
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 27 May 20 - 04:20 AM

Interesting that Nick has traced this song to the composer Harry Castling, whose name appears on a music sheet. It may well be that Castling did write the song, but, on another sheet I came across the name Tom McGuire as the composer. Unfortunately, when it comes to sheet music from this period we can find all kinds of anomalies. For example, the sheet music to the song' Wait Till the Clouds Roll By' states that the song was written by J T Wood and H J Fulmer. But, in fact, these gentlemen did not exist. They were names used by an American called Charles Pratt. There is now quite a bit of evidence to suggest that the song was actually written by the same Irish singer and concertina player mentioned above, namely Tom McGuire.
Another song that I recently researched shows at least four separate composers, depending on which sheet you examine. In this case the four were all members of the same singing group and each one had individually claimed the song as their own.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 May 20 - 04:45 AM

I'll have a go at Tom McGuire and see what that turns up. Thank you again.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 May 20 - 07:38 AM

I've come up with Irish activist Tom Maguire (not McGuire) who also appears to have been an author penning 'The mind of Wolf Tone'.
Jim would certainly know more than I however at risk of allowing my imagination to run away with me, but also in light of Jim's post above, I can see how the song may have been attributed to Castling. If the song was current among the working class singers in the 1920's, to use the song in the Music Hall and associate it with the 'Stage' Irish songs of the period, would have toned down it's political sentiments.
I've probably produced a work of fiction here, but it's all that occurs to me. No doubt you will put me right.
Nick
P.S. Pop Maynard had the song as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 May 20 - 08:15 AM

OK Ignore that last post, I've just found Dan Worralls' article on Tom McGuire (Maguire) on the Musical Traditions website. Mystery solved. Thanks everybody.
Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 06:45 AM

The "Wolfe Tone' link makes sense Nick - he was the great 18th century Irish martyr (seen his death-mask in Bantry)
There were a spate of songs about the mistreatment of Irish soldiers or the contrast of Irishmen fighting British wars while their starving families were evicted back home in Ireland - amnt of them having been written deliberately as part of the 'anti-recruitment campaign'
The best known and still sung, 'Patrick Sheehan' (worth a study on its own) wade about a soldier blinded at Sebastopol being reduced to beg on the streets of Dublin when his pension ran out
One of the most bitter of these proved impossible to collect - though a few me met knew it - refused to sing it - "An Irish Father's Address to his Son, Who Joined the British Army"
THIS IS MY FAVOURITE- sung by the mate who gave it to me

I have tried desperately to trace my Irish ancestry (to get a 'Brexit Free passport) and have fallen short miserably
I suspect that the rumour that one of my Irish ancestors joined the army to feed his family during the Famine might have been true - they didn't like to talk about that sort of thing in my family :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Brave Irish soldier (Trouble in my land)
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:04 AM

No nor in my family! The stories of the famine were passed down, and I evidently had a terrifying matriarchal great Grand mother from Belfast, complete with black Victorian hat spotless white apron, a pipe and a nature that would curdle the milk. She certainly terrified my mother!
'Are you Alma? (terrified nod) 'Are you going to bed?' (another terrified nod) 'GOOD!!' End of relationship.
The family tried to forget the past, and ended up with a son who sings a number of Irish songs, and hangs around with Gypsies. That wasn't the plan.
Thanks for your help with the song Jim.