'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song

Subject: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:25 AM

The recording to which this post will provide a link
dates from 1963, and was released by Smithsonian on its
Ethnic Folkways series;
the full album was called "Lullabies of the World."

The anonymous Dutch singer on this track sings
two lullabies, actually, one after the other;
and "En over de Weide" is the second one,
you have to get through the first lullaby to get to
"En over de Weide."
This second tune begins at about 1:10 (one minute, ten seconds).

In fact, although "En over de Weide" appears in many Dutch-language songbooks
and has entered the repertoire of, as Anna Russell says when quoting the Encyclopedia Britannica,
"... vocal utterances of the people",

this is a published song dating back to the 1870's.
Composer: Richard Hol (born Rijk Holle)
Text: Gentil Theodoor Antheunis


Holland: lullaby medley including 'En over de Weide'

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM

Remains to be pointed out that "Als jude kindren slape jahn" ("When good children go to sleep") may well be from the Netherlands, but definitely not from Holland. I guess the dialect is of the very south-east corner.

"En over de Weide" is of course in the Standard Dutch used by poets in the 1870s. As folkish as, say, Brahms's lullaby.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 09:26 AM

I am not sure there's a touch of an accent from the southern provinces,the first 'goede' and 'gaan' are perhaps ambigious in their pronunciation, later in the songs 'g' sounds are not quite the 'soft G' associated with Limburg and Branbant.The title strikes me more as something taken down by someone with little or no knowledge of the Dutch language ; 'Als goede kinderen slapen gaan / En over de weide daar blonk de zon' would probably have been a more sensible rendition.

The Folkways recordings of the period have form for that sort of thing, a number of Irish recordings are prime examples of misapprehended titles for example. Willie Clancy's rendition of the 'Shaskeen' published as the 'Shakescone' is only one out of a good few examples from a set of three lps from the early sixties. 'Caoineadh Uí Dhomhnaill' played by Denis Murphy ended up as 'The Queen of O'Donnell'.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 11:56 AM

Hi, keb. Thanks for sharing this beautiful song. Here's a page that plays the song by itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLxCZz2BAwM

I think I'll transcribe the melody if I don't find it on the net already.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Plenty of sheet music available on the net for both songs, upon simple Googling.

As for "Als jude kindren slape jahn", the composer of the melody we heard is Catharina van Rennes (1858-1940), genuinely from Holland like Richard Hol, but even less "traditional". The lyrics are said to belong to an older song (- who finds out more? -) known in many German and neighbouring dialects. Van Rennes published her version in standard Dutch. The singer in keb's link seems to "compromise" (- as Peter rightly pointed out, her "God" is pretty Hollandish), and so did the transcriber of the title, borrowing the "h" in "jahn" from German spelling.

Moreover, Gentil Theodoor Antheunis was Belgian!

The only thing that worries me is that some ethnomusicologists don't feel obliged to research the exact geography of their findings, to the point that they ignore the difference between Holland, Neatherlands, Dutch and common Western Germanic language domains.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:33 AM

If you have found sheet music for the beautiful melody I linked above, please provide the link.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: Monique
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:59 AM

Sheet music. It's the only one I've found so far.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: Monique
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:14 AM

You have the original sheet music here, #87, on the "Digitale Bibliotheek voor de Nederlandse Letteren" (The Digital Library of Dutch Literature)

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:26 AM

Here's adirect link link to the song, 'cradle song' : Wiegelied.

That bundle 'Kun je nog zingen, zing dan mee' (if you can sing, sing along) was standard issue for primary schools. Contrary to its subtitle these were not generally wellknown songs and if they were it was because children were forced to sing them. Many of the songs were/are set in an archaic language of the 19th century and there's a great deal of flagwaving and nationalism wafting off the pages. Everything was bright, heroic and happy in the Nethercountries, enough to put you off singing for life.

As Grishka pointed out, Antheunis was a Belgian and the use of words is distinctly Flemish.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:31 PM

Thanks for the sheet music, Monique. It's not the same, but I can modify it.

I wonder who thought a baby would go to sleep as its mother shot up to high F. On the video, the singer goes up to C there.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:40 PM

Right now I can't pull it off,
but online there is an edition of the composer's original, from before 1880.

In fact the original is a melody with one harmony line beneath it;
thus, two part harmony, unaccompanied. And it does go up to that F-natural, while the other line stays beneath at all times.

The song is part of a large collection, all by the same composer,
of musical settings of different Authors' poetry;
and the format appears the same throughout --
an unaccompanied melody, with a second harmonizing part below.

When that more recent website included the tune by itself on its pages,
one or two very slight tweaks were made to the melodic line, to compensate, I suppose, for the absence of that other harmonic line. But the high notes are the same high notes.

I don't know which library has this online digital file, must look that up --
I accessed the file through Google Books.
So it is listed under the composer, Richard Hol.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:56 PM

Indeed, leeneia, I cannot find the tune sung by Cilla Grossmeyer anywhere else, not even the composer's name. It may well be unpublished, definitely not "folk" in any sense. If she sings or sang it to her baby, she can call it a "lullaby of the world" alright.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:59 PM

The book mentioned by keb is probably the one to which Monique and Peter posted the links?

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:15 PM

Er, no, that it is not.
The linked book, from Peter Laban and Monique, is of more recent vintage.

I'll attempt a link now.
This collection has a very ponderous title.
Liederkrans: nederlandsche Dichtbloemen in Noord en Zuid Gegaard, Richard Hol, 75ste Werk (which is to say, Opus 75), 1877.

Because this digital file is through Google Books,
I fear that viewers outside the USA
may find that the link does not work for them.
And the rest of us:
use the Google Books page-turning feature
to move from the front cover to Page 24.


page 24: "Wiegelied," no. XI in the first volume

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:15 PM

The link is to a bundle of songs for primary schools. A different one.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 05:19 PM

I see, keb; thanks for finding the very root of the matter. The Google scan is perfectly visible here in Germany, being from 1877 and thus safely out of copyright.

The book contains exclusively original compositions by Richard Hol, upon "Netherlandish flowers of poetry gathered in the North and South". Some patriotic thistles among these as well; we Mudcatters have grown sufficient callus on our hands. The composer displays good craftsmanship, though not in the Brahms and Dvořák league.

This original version of "En over de weide" (lowercase w), with both voice parts, is reproduced in the 1908 book..

Duets for Soprano and Alto are a staple of the 19th century sheet music business, meant to be sung in the living room, the cradle being imaginary. A piano accompaniment would be expected, particularly for those ladies who would otherwise drop at the rate of one semitone per verse, but it may in this case be left for improvisation. You can simply invite the local church organist to your evening "salon" party.

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:34 PM

Thanks, Grishka, for that very helpful context.
Richard Hol was unknown to me, until I encountered this very song.
So I had to look him up to find out anything about him.
To follow on from your posts:

Catharina van Rennes (1858 - 1940) has been mentioned
with regard to the other lullaby tune,
for which maybe I ought to start a separate thread.
Van Rennes was a composition student, I read,
of Richard Hol, himself with dates of 1825 - 1904.
So by the time Composer Hol's Opus 75 was published, in 1877,
he was over fifty years of age.
And thus he would be roughly contemporary, as Grishka points out,
with Dvorak (1841 - 1904)
and Brahms (1833 - 1897).

And as to Brahms:
Composer Hol's career as a conductor and concert organizer shows,
according to Hol's Wikipedia bio,
that Hol did much to promote the music of Brahms being heard
in the Netherlands for the first time.

Yes, about the 19th century,
and making music at home:
one reason that, during this century, there were so many makers of pianos,
was that EVERY home had a piano of some kind in it.
Don't the Germans speak of "Hausmusik"
as a genre of music that can be enjoyed at home?

Subject: RE: 'En over de Weide' charming Dutch song
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 10:11 AM

Brahms and Dvořák wrote duets in broadly folkish styles with sophisticated piano accompaniments, which sold like mad. Typical customers in the Netherlands (and elsewhere) were rich merchants who organized private concerts ("salons") to showcase their daughters for matchmaking among carefully selected guests of equal status. Fishermen rarely owned pianos.

The era of widespread "huismuziek" would be the 20th century, pre-'68. In fact I am pretty sure that nowadays more pianos are being produced than ever before, although it is no longer in vogue to force one's daughters on the piano stool. (Still, music is a matchmaker, for both sexes.)