Ewan MacColl Song Collecting

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:49 AM

You and Dave really have shown your true colours

Which Dave are you referring to, Jim? Seeing as I have not contributed to this thread I guess either a) It is not me or b) It is me and you just want to provoke a reaction.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:20 AM

I have to say it sometimes looks to me as if McColl and Seeger (and possibly Lloyd, who Jim appears to have taxied round) exploited Jim and his electric/technical skill. Expenses only. Was he paid the full union rate for all the re-wiring he did? Like the lady who was happy to be a childminder in return for lessons. She may have felt it a good deal, but it seems to me that this was because of some rather odd 'worship' or 'damn near deification' of the man as somebody above put it that seems to have gone on in some quarters.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:39 AM

" Was he paid the full union rate for all the re-wiring he did?"
I was paid in kind - they fed me, gave me a bed, paid my fare and tld me to help myself to copies of all the recordings I could manage
When I refused payment - they gave me a magnificent Appalachian Dulcimer belonging to their son Hamish who couldn't use it when he blew his fingers off in an accident
Ewan and Pegy threw their home open to wannabe singers like me monthly for nearly ten years Ewan sweated blood preparing the evenings (I saw him) and both of them exhausted themselves
The only charge was a levy to pay for group equipment and expenses
One of the first 'out of Group' activities I attended when I joined was a magnificent 2-hour lecture Peggy gave at the Union Tavern on accompaniment (I have the recording) - it cost nothing, though Peggy had obviouly put a great deal o research into preparing it
That type of things was common among the people I hung out with at one time until the Folk Scene became dominated by people who placed a placed a price-tag on everything - People who knew the price of everything and the value of nothing
I met a lot of people like that when I began to do electrical for some of the wealthiest people in London

People like that tend to think themselves as important but in fact they contribute nothing to their fellow human beings
Tell me what you think again Pseud ???

No-ne here deifies MacColl - he was a flawed human being who left behind a legacy of work and thought that has yet to be climbed
Pity there aren't too many climbers up to the job nowadays - it's still there
Why the **** aren't you people prepared to discuss his ideas rather than constantly side at someone who has been dead for three decades and can't answer back
What have you done to merit such arrogance ?
Jim ?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Phillip
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM

This is all why I put this in the BS section! I wish I hadn't bothered.
Because it was obvious that eventually we would get to a series of posts of which the underlying motive force is something similar to this: "What I do object to is your damned near goddizing of the man." Why on earth should anyone object to what someone else thinks about another person, none of whom have done any harm? Or if you do, why bother pursuing it in an internet forum, when it clearly won't make any difference and even if it did that wouldn't be important? (I believe Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Bill Gates and the ghost of Thomas Aquinas are not gagging desperately to see who gives in first on this massively popular "discussion" on this bleeding-edge of popular opinion during the time of coronavirus, me too, and black lives mattering.)

MacColl is dead, who cares if his shit stank? MacColl is dead and some of the people who really like him - Jim doesn't goddize him or anything like it, being a Catholic I can spot a believer when I see one - some of us who really like his work in theatre and folk song are heading more rapidly than we would like in that direction too, so maybe let us have some fun without trying to kick the shit out of us. MacColl is dead and his family almost certainly make far more from The First Time Ever I saw Your Face than they ever will from people on here sharing a few files. Maybe we should picket second hand record shops and stop them selling scratchy bits of vinyl because the MacColls want to sell copies of them instead? Although I suspect that the estates of the people whose record companies issued the vinyl in the first place might object to Bandcamp, actually. My son-in-law is a lawyer, I will ask him his learned opinion.

As the OP do I have copyright to delete this whole topic? I wish I did. Joe Offer has a lot to answer for. (That's a joke by the way, Joe.)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:45 AM

That's not really the point, Phillip. As I am sure your son-in-law will tell you, copyright is a legal minefield. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular issue, I would hate to see Mudcat closed down or have a cease and desist notice issued for assisting in breaches of copyright.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:47 AM

Just to pitch in - as a working musician, I'd rather my music was shared illegally amongst enthusiasts than listened via Spotify etc. The amount of money made from those places is ridiculously small.

The McColl kickers I just don't understand. If you're not interested in McColl, just do something more positive with your time. Go for a walk. Write a song. Phone your mum. Your trolling of Jim is SO obvious and dull.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

In the early 60s, as a regular visitor to Collett's record shop I came across MacColl & Seeger's work for Folkways. I bought a cardboard covered Folkways LP of the Elliotts of Birtley there.

It seems Folkways wanted material from the Durham mining industry & Johnny Handle pointed M & S to the family, some of whom who had been to the Newcastle folk club he'd set up in 1958 with Louis Killen.

I'd never heard of them, and owe a lifelong friendship with the Elliotts to that production to Johnny, of course, but also to MacColl & Seeger.
I also bought a Folkways LP called 'Bothy Ballads of Scotland' -the cover listed a lot of such songs I'd never heard of. However, although I did not expect that all the bothy ballads collected by M & S were not from the original singers.
MacColl actually sang HIMSELF what had been collected, which I found disappointing to say the least.
M & S had not done this with the Elliotts, and I have always been interested to know why they did this? I can't think of any other serious collector who has done this and, not being an aficionado, I don't know if this was a frequent practice afterwards?
I would hope the original recordings are available somewhere, but I'd have thought what they did would be anathema to any serious collector?
Did Folkways insist on it for some reason or is there another explanation?
there are a limited number of people who might know- any idea, Jim C?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

I's be perfectly happy to stick with this thread if it would continue on the title theme and not this old-usual shit
I wouldn't be too happy o see anything delete - won't repeat the old Liverpool saying of the advantage of knowing where the dog has been before you put your foot down
I know the Mod's rule of not opening a thread on a subject when one has been closed
This forum has far too many no-go areas without adding to the list
I would ask, with respect, that you withhold your copyright, otherwise it would be yet another notch on the belt of the corpse-knockers
It's heartening to have a 'fellow-feeler' on board - it's been quite a while
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Phillip
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 10:27 AM

Dave the Gnome, I disagree with you, in several ways and have lots to say about it. But deifying Jim as I do I will follow his line and shut up. Instead I will email him my answer so we can both nod our heads and say "Ah, good point well made."

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 11:51 AM

Phillip :-D

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 12:43 PM

Im not sure which album you're talking about Jim
Ewan did Bothy ballads of Scotland for Folkways which was, what is ays on the label - a collection of Bothy Ballads - not collected live but from Ord and Greig and other printed Scots collections maily - with some from the BBC singers like Jimmy McBeath - Ewan wasn't a 'serious collector' he was a serious singer - collecting was a by-product of that
He also edited the 'Elliots of Birtly' made up entirely of recordings from that family - a wonderful production
Thet was a follow-up to what I believe to be the best album ever of any tradional singer, Sam Larner's 'Now is the Time for Fishing' - an all-round picture of Sam singing and talking
Ewan and Peg wanted to do a third on The Stewarts but Folkways backed out - a shame
We have recordings of all these which I'm happy to let people have despite snides to the contrary
This stuff should be available to all interested - it was collected for posterity - not so disinterested family members could inherit the price of a couple of pints wen the collectors popped their clogs

Dave
You joined Rag in saying I shouldn't pass stuff on - have you never received recordings you shouldn't have or dubbed records for friends   
You weren't quite as vicious as he was but it hurt just the same
I really don't give a shit - I do what I do for the reasons I gave - I told you how I believed Ewan would have responded
Ewan gave all his time sharing his talent - money was the last thing that entered any of our minds then - nor was it an issue with anybody we ever collected from
They got our guarantees that the proceeds of anyything we issued was automatically theirs - not their graet aunts or their grandmother's brother in law - theirs
Christ knows it was litle enough when it happened - most of the time it amounted to SFA
Whwen we die the Clare and Travellers CDs we weer given half a dozen free copies to share our among the singers (about 10 singers per album) - you work it out - we had to burn off copies to make up the gap
Now, if we want more copied - they still sell well - we have to buy them at cost and pay for the postage
You know what - we're happy to do so idf it means people can still listen to Mikeen and Mart and Nora Cleary and Tom Lenihan....
It's a privilege to be a part of keeping this music alive in a worls that prefers Ed Shearan
Onwards and upward - a iave one or ten articles to write
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:38 PM

FWIW, and this does not happen very often, I am, on the points being raised here, 100% in agreement with JimC.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:38 PM

You joined Rag in saying I shouldn't pass stuff on

I made no contribution to this thread prior to you mentioning me. I had left any other thread behind. Why bring me into it?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

" I had left any other thread behind."
What's the difference which thread you contributed to - you said what you said ?
You brought yourself into it
This insulting nonsense about "thieving from the family" began on the other thread
Thank you Steve
I knew we'd find something to agree on if we went at it long enough :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:05 PM

You brought yourself into it

It's there for all to see, Jim. My first contribution to the thread was asking which Dave you were referring to. The simple fact that you wanted to dredge up old arguments underlines that fact that you simply want to fight. The number of threads you have ruined in this manner is growing by the day. I shall not fuel your need for conflict any further on this thread.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 03:59 PM

Just to be clear, and I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong, the only scholarly collected book Ewan and Peggy had published was Travellers Songs from England and Scotland 1977. The rest were all anthologies or autobiographies.

However, the Radio Ballads were pioneering and something else entirely: For me at least the peak of Ewan's creative output.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 02:59 AM

Steve
Ewan wrote very little - articles maybe, that's all, he preferred word-of-mouth to express his ideas
Some of those ideas are to be found in the series of interviews published 25 years after his death 'Legacies of Ewan MacColl, The Last Interviews'
In my opinion, despite the somewhat unavoidable problems (in the circumstances), Ewan and Paggy's book, 'Doomsay in the Afternoon' is the most important book on source singers ever to have been published - traditional singers talking about their art is the biggest gap in our knowledge of folk song - this book goes further in filling that gap than has any other work
Gower and Porter's book on Jeannie Roberson should have done that - Gower did a magnificent job with Jeannnie's personal life; unfortunately, the discussion of the songs was done by Porter rather than the singer, which I thought was a missed opportunity

I have gathered many more exaples of his expressing his ideas on singing, dozens of seminars and lectures, many interviews, detailed song notes for albums and over 200 tapes of recorded Critics Group meetings - when put together, he probably had more to say on the subject than any other researcher on the subject of the folk arts
After the Acting Group which broke away from the Critics Group folded, Ewan had a breakdown
We were not part of that unpleasantness (on either side) and kept in touch and, when we judged the time right asked him would he be interviewed - we ere staggered when he jumped at the opportunity
I had decided I didn't want to cover the same old-same biographical path and directed the interview(s) around Ewan's ideas on singing - those interviews lasted around a year and went into some detail
THere was a misunderstanding between us - Ewan kept asking us what we were going to do with his 'biography' - that was the last thing on my mind
When we finished - he went off and wrote 'Journeyman', which, in my opinion, although less detailed, was a far more accurate picture of Ewan that the dreadful 'Class Act'

I have over 200 tapes of Critics Group meetings to transcribe and annotate one day , when I retire from an extremely busy retirement
At the end of those meetings - which were a Group exercise (not Ewan "telling us how folk songs should be sung", Ewan would flop back in his chair, say, "I'm exhausted Peg, I'm going to bed, then launch into hour-long monologues on what had gone before, linking folk song to literature, theatre, comparisons to other musics... anything that had come to mind over the last three hours - the tape recorded was left running till Charlie Parker left - that was the nearest Ewan ever came to meeting the requests that first set up the Critics Group - that he should "teach folk song"
One of the greatest problems of listing and annotating those tapes is that time and again, when I should be typing, I find myself listening and enjoying what is being said - it still inspires and makes me want to know more
I've decided to mke sure all those recordings and writings that have been arcived here don't disappear - that's why I make myself the pain in the arse I do

Ewan eschewed academia - he refused to be a 'folk luvvie' and chose to work with less experienced singers
He often said he had learned as much as any other member of The Critics Group by being part of it, and when you listen through the tapes you realise that was a fact - we all developed by learning from one another - Ewan included

I don't 'Idolise', Ewan - I enjoyed his company and I like his singing most of the time - not always
Anybody who ever worked with MacColl for a length of time, whatever their personal feeling, had to admire his ability to analise what he did and his willingness to share what he found out and believed
When he was out of his comfort zone, he tended to withdraw and listen - shy rather than stand-offish
He enjoyed company - any company - when I lived with them for a short period we sat in the garden for hours, he would pump me about my background and pour out things he never mentioned in public - I'd much rather have done that than wasting my time on frivoulous things like looking for a job and somewhere to live, any-day

Dave
"to the thread was asking which Dave you were referring to"
As I said Dave, your first comments on my giving MacColl's albums away came on a previous thread when you joined with Rag in criticising my doin it
I don't wan't topo "fight" anybody, on the contrary
I wish to continue promoting folk song the way I have chosen to do without being accused of being a "thief"
If that is "ruining threads" go look in the mirror - I argue for my views of folk songs to the best of my ability - in the folk world we now live in where folk song proper has been brushed aside to make toom for something else, that has become "trouble-causing"
Challenging what drove many thousands like me is not "picking a fight - it's standing your ground
I have made my arguments for what happened and ruffled more than a few feathers in doing so
If you disagree with what I argue - tear those arguments down - "picking a fight" doesn't hack it in my book
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 03:30 AM

If you disagree with what I argue - tear those arguments down

You launched an attack on me in a thread I had not even posted in before. If that is not picking a fight, then I don't know what is. But we all know how this goes. You love to fight and hate to lose so you will bring in new arguments until everyone gets fed up of it and goes away or the thread gets closed at which point you will blame everyone but yourself.

So be it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 04:02 AM

Stop this Dave - did you not join Rag in criticising my handing out records because they were "copyrighted" ?
You accepted a bundle of copyrighted stuff from me some time ago, were grateful for getting them and saked whether you could pass them on - I have your messages
What's the difference ?
now leave me alone to get on with what's important rather than enter yet another of oyur Black Holes
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

I am not disputing that I am uncomfortable with the copyright issues. The only point I am making is that you launched an attack on me in a thread that I previously had nothing to do with. That is indisputable so what you are doing is making excuses for it instead. Simply accept that it is something you should not have done and that will be the end of it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 04:54 AM

"The only point I am making is that you launched an attack on me in a thread that I previously had nothing to do with"
It was on the subject Dave - I described the nature of yours and Rags behaviour - did I misrepresent you
You have just confirmed that I didn't
"I am uncomfortable with the copyright issues."
You are "uncomfortable with something you are happy to benefit from personally and pass on to others
What kind of double-think is that ?
I'm moving on - you stay were you are if you wish
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:34 AM

Once again, the only point I am making is that you launched an attack on me in a thread that I previously had nothing to do with. Absolutely nothing to do with any other argument. You know you were in the wrong so you are trying a smokescreen. I'm sure everyone else has seen my point and is now bored with it. If you want to continue a completely different argument on another thread or by PM, feel free.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:43 AM

"Once again, the only point I am making is that you launched an attack on me in a thread"
For the lat time - you started it on the other thread - doeesn't matter were it bagan
Blame your mate - he moved the sunject onto this thread from the other - not me
He also dropped you in the Klarts - when I pointed out that one of the people who were making a copyright issue out of my passing Ewan's stuff areound was happy to accept and hand around such material, his response was "Not me"
I hadn't mentioned names up to then - you were the only other making an issue of ownership - ker-plunk - in you went
I'm only continuing this in the hope of stopping Rag's crusade and being allowed to do what I do without snide attacks from hypocrites
Done, I think
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

PM sent.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 02:29 PM

Jim,
Last I heard you were preparing some of your stuff to go in the BL Sound Archive. How is this going?

I think one of your problems lies in sheer quantity from what you say. In 200 reels, there will be some overlap and repetition. The number of archivists and annotaters needed to deal with this quantity would exclude most archives from taking it on.

The ideal would be public funding of a team of youngsters led by yourself.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:57 AM

It's on hold, like everything else at present
Our archive exceeds far more than 200 reels - that's just the Critics Group meetings
The actual connection goes into the thousands - our own personal collection is around 1000, then there is tha material people have put in our care
It's taken ten years to index this material and put it into a usable order (nearly)
What I have to find immediately from NSA is whether they are going to use the interviews
The songs are repeated, of course, but that was deliberate - if you are going to go beyond head-hunting, each different performance of a song contains information, especially with singers like Mary Delaney

AS far as getting help, I can't see a problem in Ireland
There is a growing interest in songs, which looks as if it iht catch up with the music
The Clare Library Website has drawn youngsters in - we keep being contacted by them
Limerick Uni once mooted the idea o a Traveller's web-site - they've already doe magnificent work with musicians
The articles I put up on Academia, which I did for diversion, have 'taken feet of their own'
In preparing the next, on Local Songs, I contacted local history groups - there might be a possibility of publishing a collection of local songs and republishing an important long-out-of-print one - more hands and heads
I wouldn't know where to start in th UK - I can't see the beginnings of a re-stirring over there
That we should all live long enough eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM

I know you don't mean it Jim but " I wouldn't know where to start in th Uk - I can't see the beginnings of a re-start over there " is more than a little insulting to the likes of Steve Gardham and others who have done and are doing good work. There's lots of excellent young singers and musicians about who are helped and inspired by shall we say the more senior players. It just seems as if they're not too keen on the outdated concept of folk clubs.Just as well for I think there won't be a awful lot left when they sound the all clear.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 06:50 AM

"is more than a little insulting to the likes of Steve Gardham and others who have done and are doing good work. "
Far from it - while I strongly disagree with many of Steve's conclusions, his work on earliest printed versions is invaluable
I find his attitude to the revival somewhat at odds with that of the tradition, but that's for him to sort out
We have no longer a folk base for our folk song revival and never will have while people wandering around tapping white sticks and wailing "we don't know what folk song is anymore"
You may as well go to Hindustan zoo and study elephants
What we (Pat and I) have done has a future in Ireland now - it has no future in Britain (England) other than posterity
I want to be around to see people discovering and enjoying Walter, harry and Sam the way many of us did
Jim

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 03:16 AM

why are folk clubs an outdated concept, what complete bollocks, the concept that people can go to a venue a specifically to listen to a certain type of music and allow performers to be shown respect is not an outdated concept.As a performer folk clubs are my favourite place to performmuch more satisfying than open mics.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl Song Collecting
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:50 AM

Clubs breathed life int a dying art form - they began to die when people forgot what that art form was, or even that it was an art form
If they are an "out dated concept"
then so are jazz venues and classical concerts
Folk clubs are an urban compromise on how fol songs were once sung - and a phenomenal successful one
One of the main things they managed to retain was the human discourse and exchange of ideas
That some people now seem to prefer the herding together 'cattle market' atmosphere of festivals or electronic alienation is their choice - a strange one, in my opinion
There again, I prefer surrounding myself with books rather than having to switch something on first
I can see no alternative to the successful format of the clubs and the enjoyment they brought yet
As Old Bill used to say during WW! - "If you knows of a better 'ole, go to it"
Jim