Tech: Digitising

Subject: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:38 PM

I'm thinking of buying a new turntable with a USB output so I can digify a load of vinyl albums.
There is a bewildering choice available,so can anyone recommend anything that is reasonably easy to use.
My budget is around 200 quid.
Thanks.
Roger.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:59 PM

https://www.whathifi.com/sony/ps-hx500/review

Price did come down a lot in sales, but seems to be going back up again to approx £299...

Worth reading about to set as a standard to judge others by.

Sony may by now have a budget version nearer your target...???

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 01:29 PM

Presumably they come with software to clean up the audio (crackles/pops etc.), split and name individual tracks, convert the reuslts to the format you’d like etc.? It’s hard to think of doing it without and, if you already have a turntable, you might like to investigate the software only route.

I use “Vinyl Studio” but I think it only comes in a Mac version. It’s equally capable of digitising tapes etc and the US price is currently $39.99.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

I looking at Acon Digital AudioLava 2

25 quid

https://acondigital.com/products/audiolava/


[click on "Features" tab..}...

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

"I'm".. oops...

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM

There are a variety of modern turntables that help with digitization to some extent, but I can't speak for most of them. In general, though, you have to be careful buying one. Anything under ~$100 as a general rule won't have good audio quality, and some brands that cost a lot of money are still terrible quality and just ripping people off on the gimmick of "vintage" looks, etc.

Of course, if you're more after being able to listen to analog-only songs on the go and the fidelity of the audio is secondary, then *most* turntables modern USB turntables you can buy will be acceptable in quality. In general, avoid anything over 5 years old. I'd also be leery of automatic noise reduction, personally, as most tends to be too aggressive and gives the song a "muted" feeling.

In my opinion, for the same cost as most modern turntables and guaranteed good audio quality, the best option is to buy a decent "authentic" turntable from the 70s-early 80s (later can be ok too, depending on what you get). Assuming you have a receiver already (and some/most(?) TV receivers will work), all you'd need to buy a cable that is an RCA male on one end and a 3mm jack on the other to run from the "output" of your receiver to plug into your laptop. Then download a free audio program, like Audacity, and you're set to record analog to digital.

Once you've got that setup, you have the advantage of owning a decent turntable setup and the ability to convert to digital with quality analogous to the real thing.

Of course, like I mentioned earlier, if audio quality isn't a huge concern, then I can help recommend newer ones too.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 03:20 PM

Many folks will argue the mini Jack audio input on a laptop or PC
is not particularly good quality analogue to digital conversion.
Some PC onboard sound cards used to include optical or RCA digital inputs
Which might have been better quality ?

This is easily solved by purchasing an affordable reasonable quality budget price USB audio interface.
The newer ones from Behringer are getting good reviews on the internet...

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:18 PM

This is an amazing deal for £9.25 and includes audio cleaning software amongst lots of other stuff

Audio Software

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:32 PM

I have two older turntables, one from the 1980s, one from the 1990s, and have the RCA plugs on the computer so can connect the turntable. I need to go about doing that one of these days, though first I need to digitize the cassette tapes. Once you figure out the best levels for volume make a note so you don't have to experiment all of the time. You can't just turn it on and play, when you record from the older device it's like drinking from a firehose; lots of distortion if it's too high. I suspect the new USB-built-in converters are less likely to do that.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:33 PM

Don’t forget that an old style turntable also requires the application of specific equalisation (known as a RIAA curve). Amplifiers produced after the demise of record decks don’t usually have this - look to see if the amp has a “phono” input. Plugging a deck into a flat “aux-type” input; the sort you’d plug your CD player or tape into will work but won’t sound right - it’ll sound thin and lacking on the bass end - and you can expect the same if you plug it straight into a computer.

You can overcome this in three ways. (1) plug the deck into an amp with a phono input and then plug the amp into the computer, (2) get yourself an RIAA eq gismo; looks like a small pre-amp, there are loads of them around or there used to be when I bought one or (3) most vinyl digitising software will have RIAA eq as a selectable option.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:41 PM

I'm running my equipment through Pioneer receiver of the same period as the 1980s turntable. Output from there. I didn't mention it above. That's where levels can be set.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:48 PM

Many thanks for all the replies.
The problem with the frozen north of Cumbria is that we seem to have either stores that sell cheap rubbish or ones that sell high end stuff with brain whithering prices and nothing in between so I have to trawl through the interweb for reviews etc.
Having grown up in the sixties I'm fairly familiar with record decks and the one that seems to fit the bill is a Lenco L 400 at about 180 quid, which leaves me 20 quid or so for software.
I'm not really a fanatic audiophile I just want reasonable quality sound and the ability to split and label tracks fairly simply.
I've downloaded Audacity but it makes my brain hurt!!
Is there anything a bit simpler out there?
Thanks.
Roger

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 06:51 PM

That package I mention includes, I believe, a version of Audio Cleaning Lab which I have used for years and is very straightforward. There are automatic tools to decrackle and denoise the track and for particularly bad clicks you can easily go in and edit them out. At under £10 for the whole package it's a bargain!

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM

Roger - take a look at the youtube review for Acon Digital AudioLava 2, I posted above..

It looks like powerful processing, but with easier user interface
than a lot of audio software..

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 09:45 PM

Roger, I can teach you how to use Audacity if you're having issues with it. Is there anything in particular troubling you?

The music is represented by the blue waves. Where it flat lines is silence. If you use your mouse to click and highlight a section of the music (just like highlighting text on a PC to make it turn blue) then you should be able to hit File, Export, Export Selected Audio and you can split the songs like that.

If you have another issue with using it though I'd be happy to help. I believe there's also some really good YouTube videos on it if you just search "how to use Audacity" on there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:04 AM

I would suggest checking out estate sales (if they ever start up again) - I see the nice equipment in homes and while estate sale folks like to price them high, you can negotiate, or go back on the last day and see if it is still there and marked down (that's the typical form here in the US - the last day everything is half-price).

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: DaveRo
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 02:35 AM

Look on Gumtree.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Phillip
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM

I would agree with the idea of using Audacity. It looks a bit intimidating at first but it is pretty easy to use once you are used to it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:40 AM

Has Audacity got specific algorithms to remove clicks and crackles like Audio Cleaning lab has? I've not used it as I have Cakewalk for music production and Audio Cleaning Lab for cleaning up vinyl and recording off the radio. Does the job very well and the new version is included in the package I linked to above for less than £10. It's pretty intuitive too

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:31 AM

Joe, Audacity does have functions to remove crackling, but they are rather primitive, and I wouldn't recommend using them in many cases.

You use Audacity's noise reduction like this:
1. select a section of only crackles/static (the longer the section, the better)
2. hit Effect, Noise Reduction
3. select the entire recording (hit CTRL+A)
4. hit "Get Noise Profile"
5. hit Effect, Noise Reduction again
6. select "OK"

You can mess around with the other settings a bit (for example select "residue" if you want it to be less aggressive) but that should get you there.

By default all the slider settings are left all the way up--if you don't reduce them, leaving the check box on "reduce" instead of residue will remove nearly all the audio from the track.

By lowering them you can reduce the impact of the scratches, but it also distorts the range of the audio and makes it sound like a warped cassette.

There's also a second way you can do it that yields much better results but is much more tedious. But, you can do it by finding the "pop," zoom in really close to it, highlight it and select Effect, Repair

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:32 AM

Oops, switch steps 3 and 4 in my first instructions!

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 11:41 AM

Thanks - Sounds a bit complicated! - Audio cleaning lab does it automatically through and algorithm though you can use noise profiling if you want it but I've always found the automatic denoising effects sufficient. For any particularly nasty clicks you just zoom in and snip out the offending click - a bit of trial and error involved but you can get really good results

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 11:52 AM

No problem, Joe. I should check out that Audio Cleaning Lab program, it sounds good.

As a side note, I have had a bad experience with ones that automatically trim the tracks. I can't remember the name of the one I used, but I had a problem where, in a quiet section of a song, it would constantly think the song had ended. You can, of course, turn that setting off, and few songs are going to be *that* quiet, but it's something you need to look out for.

To answer Roger's original question, though (which I've avoided so far! Sorry Roger!), some of my relatives recently bought a LP&No.1 turntable. It's cheap (under $100) and feels rather cheap (the tone arm mechanism has a good deal of play in it), but it has a built-in speaker if you don't want to buy a whole set-up, and it has built-in vinyl to digital technology. The sound quality is pretty good for the cost, too. Its one downside is that you'd need to learn Audacity

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 12:30 PM

Folks need to carefully research the best of affordable ,
or even free, new up to date audio clean-up software..
Then learn to use it..

Not just stick stubbornly to old software [and equipment] they know,
and have firm opinions on..

There are terrible amateurish uploads on the internet,
where clueless hobbyist 'know it all experts',
have butchered old recordings
with 'noise reduction' that makes vintage archive LPs and tapes sound far wore...

If it's for your own amusement, and no one else ever hears the results;
fair enough, carry on as you were..

But if the 'cleaned-up' recordings are intended for distribution to other enthusiasts,
then there is no excuse for shoddy results...

That's not just imho..
but expected audio standards amongst serious music obsessives of all diverse genres.....

"It's good enough for folk music" just won't do...!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:03 PM

Good point cnd re settings on recording software that stop recording when it goes quiet - I once had that experience with Audio Cleaning Lab so turned the setting off

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:38 PM

Joe G - btw.. thanks for that link of yours to the Magix bundle..

I wasn't aware of that "keys" site before, it'll get added to my regulars..
cheers...

These ultra cheap deals are how I usually get on the upgrade ladder
for newer cuting edge software I usually can't afford..

I didn't know sony had sold Acid to magix..
This past 8 years my music life has got buried looking after my old mum..
All I mostly seem to do is de-stress late at night catching up on youtube reviews and tutorials;
then buying online bargains that don't get used often enough..
My way of pretending I'm still an active musician...
Maybe I will be again before I'm 70...?????

Acid was one of the first two music tech softwares I ever purchased
back around 1998..
It was truly world changing back then..

So I'm obviously tempted to get reacquainted..

The sound edit programme Audio Studio 12
is a consumer version of Sound Forge, another classic original from the old days when computer music
was still exciting in it's toddler years of development..

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM

Some years ago I bought an ion lp2cd turntable that digitises, sends the output via USB, and also saves it to temporary memory from which the same device can then burn it to a CD. All fine in principle, NBG in practice. Burning each LP in turn to a CD seemed too much faff, and the output on the USB port turned out to be mono. The same model is probably no longer on sale, but I would be wary of any other model of the same brand.

So I put my old conventional turntable back into service. My current setup has it connected to an amplifier that is old enough to have an RIAA input, and thence to a portable digital recorder (TASCAM DR-40). Alternatively I also have a USB PhonoPlus external USB audio interface that has an RIAA input.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:22 PM

Illustrating that what was old is new again. Those of us lucky enough to have the older equipment are now exploring ways to use it to get the best result, when compared to new products.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:45 PM

Trouble is, a lot of the old classic gear needs expensive refurbishment,
and rarely obtainable replacement parts..

I'd like to get some of mine [and my dad's] back in use,
but know realistically it'll probably end up being sold for parts,
or scrapped..

Even if I'm still breathing...

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 06:16 PM

If you find another one on eBay you might combine the working portions and come up with a working version.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:52 PM

Several years ago I successfully digitized some classical music reel-to-reels. That included having to 'bake' some of the tapes which suffered from the sticky shed phenomenon. Finding a working reel-to-reel player was tough but a radio station had superannuated several of them and I found one in good condition.
I did the same with a cassette deck.
Most of the time I took the analog output of the tape player and input it to a desktop computer with a sound card with stereo inputs. Older laptops often have an analog input, but the modern ones tend not to. I have an older laptop which does a good job.

When it came to LPs, my standard record deck required a pre-amplifier before it would 'match' to the computer analog inputs. Unfortunately it was hard to get a good signal from the pre-amp because of grounding issues. Ultimately I fed the record player output to a regular amplifier and took the signal from the headphone jack. The material I was converting was consumer grade to begin with and I got good quality music or audio out for my ear.

I originally used Cool Edit software. There was an affordable version until Adobe purchased it and made only the most expensive 'pro' version available. I have since used Audacity, which is less intuitive but not too bad.

I did not try to edit out clicks and record noises. I was willing to live with it back when and still now.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: DaveRo
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 10:07 AM

On software, the parts that take the time and effort, in my experience, is track splitting and adding metadata (artist, track names) to the files.

For track splitting I used an ancient program called Gramofile. It worked well on some LPs and poorly on others. If that didn't work (about a third of the time) I did it visually with Audacity. Any software that's good at track splitting is worth paying for.

On adding metadata I used Easytag. Sometimes I could find an equivalent CD and it would fill in the tracks automatically using CDDB or similar - though the CD versions were often different. Quite often I had to find the LP on discogs or some other website and copy/paste the track names across. Sometimes I had to read them off the LP label: tracks with multiple tunes with foreign names with accents are the worst.

Gramofile did de-hissing and de-clicking too, but towards the end I didn't bother. Some LPs sounded odd without their usual scatches.

It's a lot of work. I wouldn't base it all on a cheap USB turntable

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 01:19 PM

I've been trying to remember methods I considered were positive options,
in previous threads on this subject..

[Too many family distractions for too long a time..]


GUEST mentioned portable digital recorders,
which reminded me of my plan to digitise fragile old cassette tapes.
In particular tapes which look worryingly like they might not survive
more than one or two playbacks and rewinds..

This require a good quality analog audio splitter.
Some USB interfaces and mini mixers provide plenty of options.

Thus allowing recording direct to the computer,
while at the same time taking a split safety signal to the portable digital recorder..

Why..? because it covers the possible problem of unexpected glitches, drop outs, signal corruption, etc
which can happen during real time playback USB transfer..

This presumes the analog to digital converter of the USB interface
is superior quality than the portable digital recorder.

However, if folks reasonably believe there is no discernible difference,
or they know their portable recorder is the better device..

[Can we at least agree most lossy mini disc recorders, are not as good...]

Then obviously just record to only the portable recorder,
and transfer the recorded wav file to a computer instead...

It's all about keeping our best options open...

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 01:29 PM

ps.. by "most" I mean "all"..

but I don't need a row with any fanatical mudcat mini disc zealots..

[yes, ok some of you could afford the later lossless Hi-MD mini disc recorders..
nice one, if they still function properly..]

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:07 PM

First of all many thanks to all of you.
What a can of bloody worms it seems to be.
I have a couple of albums on my computer without any track breaks so I've been experimenting with various different types of software and they all seem to work in the same basic way.
Getting the track breaks is fairly straightforward but I've realised that you have to label them differently if you don't want them to overwrite. That was a lesson learned and an afternoon of my life I'll never get back!!
So I've got a shiny new album of Scott Joplin piano rags all correctly titled and in the proper order now.
The new turntable is on its way, so I can look forward to trying to digify 300 odd albums!!
Thanks again.
Roger.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: cnd
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 04:17 PM

Glad to hear your getting started. Tough luck on your afternoon, but thankfully that's generally the kind of mistake you only make once! (I know I never did something like that...!)

As you alluded, I've found organizing things to be one of the main challenges in digitizing my collection. I personally keep mine in individual file folders by album, with folders named ARTIST NAME - ALBUM NAME (or VARIOUS ARTISTS - ALBUM NAME) and inside use a .txt file to contain relevant info like liner notes, year produced, artists, etc; this system keeps them easy to look through by name but also lets the folders be easily searchable.

Inside each folder I split the songs and name them like on the album, with the prefix of A1, A2, A3, etc, so they maintain the same order. Of course, you don't have to do it exactly like that, but it's a system I've found after some trial and error that I like a lot.

I know Audacity includes a way of automatically adding "tags" while you export songs, and other music players likely do as well. I prefer "Mp3tag," a free program you can download to add data to the files, but it's all a matter of opinion of course.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 05 Jun 20 - 07:37 PM

I remeber thinking that when I retire that I will digitise all my LP's - I did six many years ago before I retired and haven't done one since (and I have been retired 5 years now!) - though I do hope at some point to digitise the albums I cannot get via Spotify or Deezer - i suspect I will never get round to it as so much new music to explore

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:58 AM

We bought a new stylus for my Pioneer deck last year, which improved the sound of our LPs greatly. Any old LP that I want to hear on my car I download from Spotify, which is much quicker, then all I need to do is remove the annoying adverts.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:40 AM

I have now digitised many 100s of albums - enough to make it a routine process
A reasonable quality deck does a reasonable quality job, if that's what you want, if you want to archive your albums it takes a bit mote thought
After buying a 'reasonable quality' deck I found the styli too flimsy for constant use so I resurrected an ancient good quality Pioneer from the loft, my partner brought it into my life nearly fifty years ago and she had had it for some time, she acquired it from her workplace - Imhoff's (not many people around now who remember that outstanding firm) - perfick - as long as I can continue to get the stili (we now live on the West Coast of Ireland and have to travel to Dublin for that sort of thing
I would suggest search the net to see what's available 2nd hand
As far as cleaning up, I was immediately introduced to Adobe Audition and we've never parted - I use only part of what it offers and it's more tan adequate for my needs
Like everything else worthwhile, you get what you put in - a quick fix quick fixes - perfection takes time
At first it's a learning curve but when you arrive at something that suits you it becomes routine - short of turning plant-pots back into vinyl discs (do they still do that - my mother taught me that?)
I started with Adobe 1.5, tried a couple of later ones and eventually returned to 1.5 - "No matter what they say, it still suits me" (according to Paul Robeson)
Not sure where Adobe Audition is business-wise nowadays - it was being given away as a freebie for a time, usually a sign it was going belly-up

I'm happy to help further, with advice or possibly practically if you P.M. me
Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM

Crikey, we used to go to Imhoffs in New Oxford Street, London, where you could listen to an LP in a booth, where we would write down the song words!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,itstimupnorth
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:51 AM

Just seen this thread as I'm not a regular visitor.

You've obviously purchased your turntable, so I'll skip that. As far as software is concerned, I'd concur that Audacity is relatively simple to use in a basic form. It's also pretty good at taking out pops and crackles.

Also, you might like to investigate tagging software called mp3tag - freeware (donations welcomed) - https://www.mp3tag.de/en/ where it's much easier to add track details.

I think the thing you have to remember is that you are converting an analogue form to digital, so all the information that you might be used to getting in a digital file has to added manually.

I've digitised more than 300 of my old vinyl LP's. Most are still in form of a single Audacity file. Splitting them and cleaning them up is a job for cold and rainy days!

Good luck

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 07:36 AM

" we used to go to Imhoffs in New Oxford Street, Lond"
You must be very, very old Bonzo
Wonderful old-fashioned shop with an old fashioned umbrella shop opposite and Collet's record shop within walking distance
I almost liked London in those days - not quite !
Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:57 PM

It would have been around 1963-4 we went to Imhoffs.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 09:31 AM

Well.
The new turntable duly arrived and I,m starting to get my head around Audacity. I've tried a few of the other types of software but Audacity seems to be the most intuitive.
This digitising lark is great fun and I reckon its going to become habit forming!
Roger.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Joe G
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 09:59 AM

Good luck!

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 11:03 AM

Teaching yourself a useful new skill is always an interesting process. If you think of it, after a few weeks of work, drop in and share any insights you think might help the next person who reinvents this particular wheel.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 11:34 AM

One of the problems with Audacity, is that work yo do on a sound-file makes it unusable fon other systems (as I am finding at present)
Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 11:35 AM

Will do Stilly.

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: AKS
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 02:28 PM

Jim, yes it does – if you SAVE files in 'audacity project' format. But Audacity allows to EXPORT the "edited product" as mp3, wav and ogg as well (similar to Photoshop, which wants you to save in psd, but allows exporting in jpg, pdf etc).

AKS

Subject: RE: Tech: Digitising
From: GUEST,cnd
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM

Yes, AKS is right about that. Be sure to Export and not Save audacity files if you want other programs to be able to use them.

The only purpose of saving an audacity file is if you're not done editing it yet. It saves the program the hassle of re-converting it to Audacity's program.