BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM

By independent bodies I mean people who are distanced from the emotions of a case, that's all. I get sick to death of sensationalist and teary interviews of victims on the telly, not to speak of police officers of the Cressida Dick ilk pontificating on the morals of cases (the woman responsible for the death of Jean-Paul Menezes, lest we forget)... Justice is not served by things like that. Dick's comment didn't dot the "i"s or cross the "t"s but it did sort of hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:38 PM

And my point is that ‘independent bodies’ - juries, as suggested by Dick - have no influence on the sentence handed down to a convicted offender, that is the judge’s responsibility guided, informed, and limited by statute. Thank goodness too - I find the concept of an unqualified jury being involved in the setting of sentences, and thus making the possibility of Daily Mail justice even more likely, very worrying indeed.

If, by ‘independent bodies’, you mean a panel of suitably professionally-qualified individuals whose responsibility is to make decisions on sentencing based on the offender’s past record, behaviour whilst detained, response to education/treatment, etc., don’t we already have that very thing in the form of parole-boards?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

I did say that release should not be automatic, and that there will always be a few people who can never be released. I am railing against an emotional approach to sentencing and punishment. Dick's point was that we remove the subjectivity by handing decisions to independent bodies. At least, that's how I read it. Dick will correct me if I've got that wrong. It can't be perfect, but at least we can avoid Daily Mail justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:51 PM

‘Return-offend’? Bloody predictive text! Re-offend!!

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:49 PM

I get what you said, Steve, but protection of potential victims has to come first - it’s not ‘vengeance and lynch mentality’ to want to protect children from kidnap, rape, torture and murder, surely?

The kind of people who commit that kind of heinous crime seldom do it ‘just the once’, they Often re-offend repeatedly. Unless and until some suitable ‘treatment’ is found - whatever it may consist of - to ensure they don’t return-offend, what other alternative is there to ‘throwing the keys away?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:26 PM

I read the sentiment of Dick's comment as saying that we remove the anger, the vengeance and the lynch mentality from the way we treat perpetrators by resort to as objective a system as we can muster. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM

So the jury system has little or no relevance to your ‘let’s throw the keys away brigade’ comment does it, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:41 PM

But sentences aren’t set by juries, they are set by statute and dispensed by judges. So the jury system has little or no relevance to your ‘let’s throw the keys away brigade’ does it, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:43 PM

That is exactly right, Dick. When I posted what I did I was scared of a backlash, but you have said just the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:56 PM

"I wonder if paedophilia could be classed as a psychotic mental illness?"

This may be unfair to psychotic people. Some psychoses are inherited disorders of the brain, but the sufferer would never sexually attack a child.

The best way to answer this question would be to read books where experts study the life histories of a good many pedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:22 PM

and I do have to ask meself whether I'd feel the same way were a loved one of mine to be a victim... quote
that is why we have a jury system to try and get objectivity and impartiality

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:19 PM

Civilised countries can't have justice systems predicated on anger, vengeance or a lynch mentality. For me, the bottom line when it comes to keeping people in prison is twofold: would release endanger the public, and would release threaten the convict? If no to both, then release should always be a possibility. I didn't say automatic. We have to accept two things, that we don't always know what motivates the worst kinds of offenders to do what they do (someone mentioned mental illness...), and we do know that there are examples of perpetrators of the most vicious crimes who have turned themselves round and even made contributions towards reducing crime, especially among the young. So I'm not a member of the let's-throw-the keys-away brigade. There will always be a few people who we can never let out, and I do have to ask meself whether I'd feel the same way were a loved one of mine to be a victim...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:57 AM

When I was a Prison Visitor and visited in many prisons around the UK, including Category 'A' ones (for serious offenders) the Prison Officers told me often that they had several mentally ill inmates who in their opinion should have been in a different type of Institution such as Broadmoor (a secure hospital for the 'criminally insane').

HMP Parkhurst ('A' Cat.) in particular was awash with mentally ill men, and on visits, nurses were in evidence with small canvas bags over their shoulders, containing hypodermic needles and 'knockout' drugs in case one of these men should kick off and go dangerously haywire.

But until this sad case of little Madeleine is resolved (if ever) it's a bit premature to consider what to do with the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:46 AM

Can't disagree with that Baccie - my reservation would only be the woeful inadequacy of mental health treatment, or even taken seriously
The bumwipe press regards it as a let-out, and to a degree, takes the public with them, wealthy villains who can afford good legal assistance often use it to escape their crimes
As t stands at present, it's the best we can expect
Castration is not unlike capital punishment - too permanent to be feasible should it be found to have been applied to the innocent
Chemical castration was once the choice a homosexual was given as an alternative to prison - well within all out lifetimes - one of Briatin's great wartime saviours, Alan Turing's acceptance of this led eventually to his suicide

Capital Punishment was never anything more than institutionalised murder
My favourite quote on the barbaric practice, from 'The New Statesman', ends a brilliant little book on its history. 'The Fatal Gallows Tree' by Jonn Dean Potter, 1965   

Its description of how Britain's, 'great and good' gathered their forces to retain it has never been bettered

"From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten — the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution."
    It took nearly another 10 years to get the Bill passed. While the last Bill for abolition was placed before the House of Commons hanging was suspended—and never renewed.

This book should be compulsory school reading (still available with a little effort)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

”Locking sick people up with hardened criminals should never have been an option“

Which is why I talk about ‘whole-life detention’, Jim. Brady was held in a psychiatric facility, not in a standard high-security prison, because he was judged to be ‘insane’ (whatever that may mean). Hindley, however, was not classed as ‘insane’, so went to a prison.

We can argue the toss about what kind of detention child-abductors/torturers/murderers should be subjected to, but what is an unarguable fact, AFAIC, is that the public have to be protected from these people, and long-term detention is a proven way of achieving that protection. Until anything more sophisticated or effective comes along...’we have what we have’.

Dick talks about ‘chemical castration’, and that’s been tried before, with varying levels of success. It depends on the co-operation of the offender, something that cannot be guaranteed, and I seem to recall instances of ‘chemically-castrated’ pædophile offenders going on to offend again.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

"Well Jim, we have what we have."
Doesn't mean it can't be changed Baccie - I can remember the time of 'Lunatic asylums' and people were considered mentally ill for anything from getting pregnant to being gay or writing war poetry
If things need changing, they sould be changed
Locking sick people up with hardened criminals should never have been an option
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

castration might be a good idea.

That has the same problem as capital punishment - it can't be undone if the convicted person is later proved to be innocent.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:13 AM

castration might be a good idea. no offence to any of our members or guests who may be involved in folk music and who are lurking on this site, they have been here and in one case still are, but it is not for me to start a witch hunt and name them.
if there is a way of removing their sexual urges medically it might be a good idea for it to be done. however, it is debatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

”No solution has ever been found to the problem of what to do with sick people who commit crimes“

Well Jim, we have what we have. Capital punishment is, AFAIC, out of the question - State-sanctioned murder is no better than any other murder - but people, especially children, need to be protected from those who would abuse them and take their lives.

Brady never harmed anyone after his conviction, he spent the rest of his life in what was effectively his prison. I’m not so sure that Hindley died in prison, she was very close to parole when she mysteriously and suddenly ‘died’, and I’ve always held a strong suspicion that, in order to avoid the public outrage that granting her parole would have caused, she was spirited away and given a new identity and a new life (but I have a suspicious nature anyway, so I could be well wide of the mark on that).

Whatever, whole-life detention for those who abduct and murder children seems a reasonable solution to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:55 AM

I agree Backwoodsman. Like you I don't support capital punishment, but life imprisonment is the only way to protect society from child abductors, paedophiles and child rapists/murderers.
Those folk who grant Parole for offenders such as these must have no common sense at all. How could they risk another atrocity by freeing such monsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:57 AM

"but whole life imprisonment - absolutely."
No solution has ever been found to the problem of what to do with sick people who commit crimes
Insanity is a mental illness in any medical dictionary - "criminal insanity" is a contradiction in terms, surely ?
Society's revenge against those who don't live up to our expectations seems nearer the mark
Society has yet to come to terms with the contradictions of how it treats sex, per se
A woman who brings a rape accusation is often judged on how she dresses when reaching a verdict, yet we live in a society that pressurises women to dress to please and titlate men
A wonan is condemned if she likes sex "too much" - sexual history is a major ploy in any defence arguments
A man is admired for his ability to "pull birds"
Pornography is a salable commodity - divided into "hard" and "soft" and the barrier between toe two is narrowing
Gibbon could have managed another six volumes with his hands in his pockets
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

Obviously I don’t know if that’s the evidence the German police have, but it just struck me as very possible - after all, it was the photos they took of their victims’ burial sites that helped the police in Lancashire and eventually dammed Brady and Hindley.

Sen - my view is that anybody who sets out to kidnap, sexually abuse, and murder a child has a very serious, and almost certainly incurable and untreatable, mental illness, and should be incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives. I hold no truck with capital punishment, but whole life imprisonment - absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:39 AM

You have a point, Backwoodsman, perhaps photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:15 PM

That's true I suppose Backwoodsman, but isn't it appalling that anyone would commit such crimes? I wonder if paedophilia could be classed as a psychotic mental illness?
Apparently, the Portuguese Police and the German Police are at odds, and won't share evidence or information. The Portuguese found some saliva at the apartment to which they refuse to allow the Germans access to test for DNA. The Germans are demanding in a high-handed manner that they co-operate, which has alienated them.
The whole thing is a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:05 PM

”Common sense says that the only real evidence that M is dead would be the discovery of her body“

Or photographs perhaps? It’s not unknown, I believe, for paedophiles to photograph their victims post-mortem?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:54 PM

Senoufou, I agree with you that something is wrong with this situation.   Common sense says that the only real evidence that M is dead would be the discovery of her body, and if that happened, there would be no reason to keep it secret.

Statements by felons and perverts are so likely to be half-baked or self-serving that they can hardly be called evidence. An exception would be when the informant knows some insider detail that shows he was on-scene. I think we can assume that hasn't happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

"You should just be thankful that Israeli's have not been brought into it."
There really is no need for that on a thread like this Rag - please take your revenge somewhere else

Back to what matters
The suspect has now been linked to another murder and disappearance - possible murder with pedophilic overtones - a horde of stolen girls swimsuits were found in his caravan
The mother of the missing child has pleaded with the McCanns not to give up on their missing child
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:14 AM

We already have a thread in which memorials, etc, can be bantered about, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

I'm the world's worst thread-drifter.

I see that the German Police have told the Press they have 'evidence' that the poor child is dead. However, they won't disclose the reason for this conclusion. And they say they've informed the McCanns, but the couple deny that they have received any such information.
This doesn't sound above board to me. It doesn't add up does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:58 AM

It's called thread drift Steve, I've been told not to worry about it.

In fact it is highly amusing that one of the worst culprits backs you up.

You should just be thankful that Israeli's have not been brought into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

I agree with Steve - we should leave this one to the pigeons - that's what we pay them to do, after all
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:12 PM

This diversion could be in a different thread. Let's drop it in this one. We all have our own opinions, but opinions are all that they be...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:59 PM

So did the defendant, and he pissed on the wrong one...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:35 PM

After 16 pints I'd see two monuments...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jos
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:32 PM

After 16 pints I wouldn't be able to see a monument, never mind reading it.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

I've had another look at a photograph of the incident.

The memorial to PC Palmer is sited in front of another piece of masonry which looks to be part of the fencing surrounding the land behind it.

The man is not urinating on the memorial but on the stone work to the side and behind it.

It people would care to look at the evidence available themselves instead of accepting what they are told by the media this man would have received a fine ……..no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 12:07 PM

Let's just ask what the level of outrage would have been
if a lefty demonstrator had pissed so close to that fallen cop's memorial...?????

I'd guess probably fewer mudcat apologists feeling sorry for the offender...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

The name of the police officer was very clear on the memorial, as can be seen in that photo. It was right and proper that the magistrate took not just the context of the offence but also public outrage into account, as well as the man's remorse. I tend to think that justice was fairly well served on this occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:52 AM

Now I've only had a very quick glimpse at one photograph of the offence.

It was clear to me that he was standing to one side of the memorial. I doubt if there was any intention to actually pee on it.

I suspect that is media hype, the sort of hype that would get him a beating in some quarters.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:45 AM

His defense was lucky he was far too inebriated
to have accurately hit his 'alleged' memorial target in front of cameras...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:35 AM

Context is everything. Whilst what he did was hardly a flogging offence, the picture of him urinating next to the memorial to a very brave man did cause massive outrage in the country. It was an aggravation to the part he played in a far-right, racist semi-riot.   My opinion is that his punishment, taking into account the remorse he showed which I took at face value, was proportionate. It wasn't so much the peeing as the outrage to public decency that he caused.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 07:21 AM

I think the "normal" sanction for peeing in the street is an £80 fine.

Make what you will of a fourteen day prison sentence and the accompanying criminal record.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

Looks like France has been presumed guilty without evidence, despite having signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and having on statute, since 1789, that men are innocent "until evidence comes forward to prove otherwise". Don't know what it said about women, though (probably nothing).

Certainly, I have no problem with how I was treated when arrested by the French dibble, but then I'm a bloke.

There are anomalies, like everywhere. The prosecutors sit higher than the defending barristers due to a "carpenter's error", but in Britain in the eighteenth century "The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, and wretches hang that jurymen may dine".

Curiously enough, an article in an American academic law journal noted that the principle expressed in the French 1789 statute has still to be formally recognised in Anglo-American jurisprudence.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

whoever is guilty of the abduction and murder[if she is dead], should not be named until there is enough evidence for the DPP to prosecute, that is the law, for people to have faith in the law, justice has to be administered correctly, whatever the crime.
whoever are the victims of any crime, the law has to be adminstered in accordance with justice.
in the uk the system is innocent until PROVED guilty. IN FRANCE AND SOME OTHER COUNTRIES ITIS GUILTY UNTIL THE DEFENDANT PROVES INNOCENCE. wHATEVER THE SYSTEM THE DPP HAS TO DECIDE IF THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE. in reality if someone is named beforehand the mud sticks regardless of proven innocence or guilt,

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 02:35 AM

"safely' behind German bars,"
Germany has had a mention as one of the countries where evidence has been lost from this ase in the past
You seem to be making this a witch-hunt against this poor suspect, ignoring that the victims so far have been the missing girl and and her parents
If there has been any sign of "a lynch mob", I'm buggered if I have seen it - has anybody else ?
All I've read so far is the uncovering of fresh evidence and the disclosure of one blunder after another - no screams for blood have made it over here
Am I wrong ?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 10:27 AM

I wouldn't describe a big burly heavily intoxicated organised gang [football supporter] thug
riled up by far right propagandists,
to 'protest' in London during pandemic lockdown..

..as "that poor English guy"...

If he did do it deliberately, who knows what his distorted reasoning was...???

The facts are he got caught in the act, and would soon be identified
and vilified,
if he didn't hand himself in 'voluntarily' to face up to lesser trouble...

Who knows what else CCTV might have picked him up doing earlier...???


That mob of 'patriotic' statue protecting vigilantes he belonged to,
openly threatened and beat up news crews & photographers
who they identify as their enemy;
[trump scores that trans Atlantic victory]
and many of them also hate the police for various criminal and perverse ideological reasons...

The mainstream media does have some power for good,
but this power is too often abused for profit and sinister political motivation...

As I understand news reports, the new Maddy suspect is luckily 'safely' behind German bars,
where British paedo hunting vigilante mobs can't easily get to him...???

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 09:09 AM

He turned himself in after pressure from his own family. He got fourteen days, of which he will serve seven. He has been remorseful and apologetic, admitting ignorance of the significance of his action. I can't see much wrong with his fate myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:47 AM

The profit motive has become far too important in newspapers. Look at that poor English guy who decided to have a quiet pee at the side of the street, and unfortunately chose a monument to a brave man to pee beside. Apparently he's been jailed.
Now, I have no objection to jailing men for pissing on the street - YES! - but this man was virtually jailed at the request of screaming tabloids, from what I can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:06 AM

Incidentally Dick, your quote refers to the Press interfering with justice, not the people, per se
People rely on the press for their information on these things - that is their only source
It is the press who decides whether the accused is guilty and it is they who create "beasts" and "monsters" long before any verdict is reached - the public knows nothing until they are given what the press chooses them to know
There are exceptions of course - long term prejudices can come into play (the execution of a Traveller by a farmer who was later found "blameless" is one of the best examples I can think of

I was against the filming of trials at one time - now I am not too sure
The O J Simpson entertainment circus sickened me, but maybe it doesn't have to be like that
The plaintiff is as entitled as the accused and the public must be allowed to reach their own conclusion based on all the information
Many rape victims are now choosing to waive their anonymity on behalf of their fellow victims
The only ones who would benefit from the anonymity of the accused in cases like this would be the guilty - open trials might be a way of letting a public who was interested enough to decide for itself
There's a big Augian Stable desperatwly in need of a thorough scrub-down here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 05:12 PM

Dick
As you can see from the way rape is treated with only a miniscule number of cases being ever reported - the system is broken - if it was even working
Unless it is fixed you might as well wife it off the books as a report -worthy crime
This is not "my ppr misjudged mate, the victim" - it's and entire gender
Please address that one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

His treatment has nothing to do with his being identified - it is the populist whipping up by the press that creates the lynch mobs.
quote
, it is both, being identified by the press who then whip up a frenzy , the second does not happen without the suspect being identified. if you identify people you are in effect using a sytem of guilty until proved innocent and if the director of public prosecutions considers there is not enough evidence, the mud sticks, check out the murder case of sophie toscan du plantier and suspect ian bailey.
you cannot make exceptions for rape cases

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 12:32 PM

Recently I read that back in the day, Madeleine's picture on the front page of a tabloid would sell 30,000 extra copies.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 03:09 AM

Incidentally, you brought up the case of someone you know being accused of rape and being ruined - you know as well as I do of the difficulty of proving these cases - you have decided the decision was a correct one; it is very seldom that the victim of cases like this admit they were lying - usually there is not enough evidence to back up the claim and the accsed is proven "innocent in the eyes of the law
TRY THIS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 20 - 03:01 AM

"he will get if the public ever get their hands on him."
The poor bastard - he has been implicated in several crimes, which now includes the rape of an Irish girl
His treatment has nothing to do with his being identified - it is the populist whipping up by the press that creates the lynch mobs
The whole justice system regarding such crimes is a mess
Maybe our justice system should be administered in secret by professionals
I remember the murder of the policeman, Keith Blakelock
When the suspect was arrested the press responded with a huge black-face mugshot of the suspect on most front pages
I can't remember a single protest about that one
Tragic crimes sell papers
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:51 PM

Raggy, I’ve seen his Given Name in the media, but not his surname. Clearly I have missed something!

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:17 PM

"Isn’t the identity of the new suspect being kept under wraps? Have I missed something?"

Meant to respond to this yesterday Backwoodsman.

The suspect has been named repeatedly in the media.

Irrespective of whether he is responsible or not you can imagine the treatment he will get if the public ever get their hands on him.

Now I realise that he is alleged to be a particularly nasty piece of work and some may say deserves everything that comes to him.

I believe any punishment or retribution HAS to come from the state authorities after a fair trial not from mindless thugs bent on reprisal.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 07:03 AM

Anonymity of suspects would not necessarily be needed if the media stop inciciting the public into hatred in order to sell papers
If thet just report that so-and-so is a suspect and leave it at that - where's the harm
They don't, they give these criminals hate-filled labels - "The beast of...,, the ..... monster, which turns human tragedies into lurid entertainment
The three Irish rugby stars who group shagged a drunk girl, filmed it and put it up for their mates to see - they were found not guilty - but they still behaved like predatory animals
If they had been anonymous they would have kept their jobs and been allowed to go on denigration and abusing women
At least they lost their stardom - a light sentence for bestial behaviour, I would suggest

The McCann investigation has uncovered that the suspect was reported to the German police in 2013 regarding the disappearance and that they lost the evidence, so it wasn't followed up
Worth knowing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 06:00 AM

I understand Jack's point now, and it's a valid one. Burying bad or awkward news is a time- honoured political trick. I didn't get it at its first showing, I must confess.

Whether or not suspects should be named is not a clear-cut matter. Many victims of crime against children and women (especially) come forward only when a serial suspected perpetrator is named. Their evidence helps to provide the necessary corroboration to get a conviction and to get justice for far more victims. There will be other circumstances when it isn't in the public interest to name suspects. I don't think there can be a broad-brush approach, and I think the decisions should be put in the hands of top legal eagles, if we can find any wise ones...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

According to probability theory, coincidences are statistically unlikely not occur. For every coincidence there are millions of non-coincidences, but nobody notices those.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:31 AM

it may be accidental. it may not be, i cannot be 100 per cent sure, but it is a useful political distraction,these distractions often involving the royal family happen regularly and at convenient times that suit the political establishment, coincidences that happen frequently, who knows, only the media barons the editors and the political establishment

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:17 AM

I really can't see that he does
Of course this bungled tragedy will be used as a diversion, as will Coronavirus when people are fighting the mass unemployment and the profiteering and opportunism we are about to have thrust on us, but it doesn't lessen the tragedy that surrounds the probable killing of this child
The British People are about to be asked to bit the bullet and submit to the hardships so the Government can "carry out the people's will and shake of the chains of Europe" - I'll put money on that
Those who will benefit rather than make sacrifices themselves will ask us to forget our own personal problems or "the greater good"
It seems this is what is being asked of the McCanns here - let's not talk about your child - it gets in the way of the important things
Life really isn't like that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 03:19 PM

Jim - actually Jack does have a fair point..
but it's the clumsy context insensitive way he expressed it
which has riled folks up against 'im...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 03:15 PM

"jack campin has a point"
Hmmmm - some people would say so has Trump
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 01:04 PM

jack campin has a point

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 12:35 PM

Senoufou, I have heard of trials being moved to a new district because of adverse publicity close to the crime site. This is called change of venue. But I have never heard of anybody getting out of being tried because of publicity.

However, in the case of the Madeleine McCann abduction, it would be hard to find anywhere in the western world where there hasn't been plenty of publicity.   

Now that I think about it, I doubt that mere publicity is enough of a factor. The last case I can think of in my region where there was change of venue was the trial of a woman whose two Rottweiler dogs killed a ten-year-old boy. Neighbors had been complaining about the dogs, and people had asked her to control them, and she had not. She wasn't just the object of publicity; the whole populace was in flames against her. The trial was moved maybe 150 miles west.
===================
About court cases in general: I read a good sentence years ago in a book about the Watergate scandal under Richard Nixon. When the burglars appealed their convictions, the appeals judge wrote, "The defendants are entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect one."

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 08:46 AM

I know of plenty of women whose lives and reputations have been ruined by being raped, raped again publicly in court and still not being able to recieve a fair hearing or verdict ecause of the heavily loaded scales against them
Anonymity for the accused while this goes on is only going to exacerbate that situation   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 08:44 AM

Isn’t the identity of the new suspect being kept under wraps? Have I missed something?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

You are quite correct Senoufou that someone could argue successfully that their case has been compromised by publicity.

Therefore if no publicity was given prior to a conviction, that is names where withheld, there is more chance of a conviction.

As Dick has said he knows someone who's life has been blighted by premature reporting. I too know someone who life was ruined by being named and then being found innocent.

The victims, quite rightly, maintain anonymity. This should also be applied to the alleged perpetrator until after a successful conviction.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 06:29 AM

" both posts "
Hoefully a third now
This story has reemerged because a new suspect has been discovered - not for the titlation or distraction of anybody
It's basically inhuman to pretend it's for any other reason
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 04:48 AM

Or if you prefer "Oh look, a squirrel!"

The point of the Maddie story has always been to provide a supply of distracting headlines for when the power elite and their media allies don't want us looking at something else. So, look at what stories disappeared off the front page when the Maddie story came round again.

As I have now posted twice, both posts deleted by some thick-as-pigshit American mod: don't think about Dominic Cummings.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 04:33 AM

THat will reduce the number of reported rapes to almost nil Dick - why should a woman face the humiliation she has to by reporting a rape in the present circumstances ?
Think of all the high-up fraud cases that have been let off through a technicality
Take a peek at the Dolphin Square history abandoned because of one bad witness, leaving all those other 'Fine upstanding politicians' unpunished
Our justice system is unjust, while it remains so we need checks and balances
"Justice not only needs to be done, but to be seen to be done" is not a bad guide to go by, if the victim is to get an equal bite of it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 04:27 AM

I'm no Law expert, but I believe that a person can mount a defence on the basis that their trial couldn't possibly be fair, due to the inordinate amount of adverse publicity bandied about before it took place? Also, potential jurors are often asked if they have been avidly following reportage about the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 03:20 AM

whatever the crime suspects should not be named until there is enough evidence to prosecute, better stilluntil they hasve been found guilty,i know someone whose life has been ruined because he was named and then the dpp did not prosecute. it could happen to you ,jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 03:14 AM


You can't really orchestrate news coverage; at least ordinary people can't

Max Clifford could. But his methods were his downfall. He had so many items of news he spoon-fed the tabloids with items that they were more likely to gobble up. Thus downgrading some news that he was trying to suppress. He won more than he lost until his antics caught up with him.

The McCanns' were not alone in pushing their story longer than the tabloids would normally have run with it. It made money that they spent on getting several investigations going.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 08:29 AM

Cases of rape are very much a two-way street in this respect
It is the least prosecuted of all crimes, the hardest to prove and one with the least successful prosecutions
Women bringing these cases are submitted to ordeals in excess of the rape itself
Men found guilty are seldom regarded as the villain of the piece, while women who win their cases are stigmatised because the defendant invariably claim "she wanted it to happen
In small towns where everybody knows everybody else, women who succeed in their claim are often forced to move
In my opinion, a woman prepared to submit herself to such a situation, almost certainly has grounds for doing to
The introduction of drugs like Rohypnol have worsened the chances of successful prosecutions considerably

Until the disgustingly unjust way of manner in which these cases are tried are thoughtfully cleansed, I believe they balance has to be shifted in some way - positive discrimination
Anonymity has exactly the opposite effect
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 08:05 AM

yes, a similiar case in ireland with the murder of sophie toscan du plantier in 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

"Suspects should not be named by the press [whatever they may have done in the past] until the prosecutors decide there is enough evidence to bring a case."

Well said Dick, I would fully agree with that. However I would go one step further and say suspects should not be names until actually convicted.

My reasons for saying this are numerous but one instance always comes to mind. I used to work in a pub. One of our customers was accused of rape. You can imagine how this was received in a small village. He was completely ostracised and could barely leave his house. He was eventually found innocent of the charges in a court of law.

However that made no difference to his position in the village. The mob had already put him on trial found him guilty and pronounced sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 05:20 AM

Not sure that's necessary Dick - far too often cases are dropped for lack of sufficient evidence making pursuing a case because it ould cost too much
Then, in some cases, we need to know why it was brought in the first place
i'm thinking of the Brexit fraud case where it was accepted that the accused was guilty of something but to expensive to prove it
There are many rape cases dropped because the victim has been bought off or declined to be humiliated in public

It has emerged that liason between the British and Portuguese police was virtually extremely poor
Are we entitled to know or discuss this, I wonder
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 05:03 AM

Suspects should not be named by the press [whatever they may have done in the past] until the prosecutors decide there is enough evidence to bring a case.
i feel sorry for the parents, and hope that there will be a resolution for them and that the person who has killed her if she has been killed has a proper trial and gets justice

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM

Powerful politicians don't have to manipulate the media - powerful media barons who support them make that unnecessary by doing it on their behalf
I wish people wouldn't keep referring to 'dignity' here - I see little evince of it so far - only compassion for the parents and criticism of what has gone before
"Conspiracy theories" are best dealt with when they actually put in an appearance - imagining them only serves to conjure them up
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 03:02 AM

You can't really orchestrate news coverage; at least ordinary people can't - maybe powerful politicians can, to an extent, but even they can't control everything.
It really sounds as if the poor little girl was killed. I hope so much for the sake of her unfortunate parents that her body is recovered.
Let's keep a little dignity in talking about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 03:00 AM

"Ye gods, the vultures gather."
Very true - we know full well from the Stephen Lawrence case and many many others, that investigations like this are in good hands and the likes of us shouldn't be meddling in their sterling work

Nobody is, as far as I can see, is screaming for blood - I detest that behaviour, but this case has been a series of blunders from day one
The parents, instead of being treated as parents of a lost child, have been regarded as chief suspects by police forces abroad and to a lesser degree, at home - the media went along with that and ran with the story until it stopped selling papers

Now a possible suspect and a mounting degree of circumstantial evidence has been found
So far, the only two postings I have made are on the treatment of the parents and the mounting circumstantial evidence

It is true that any suspect is entitled to justice - I can see nothing here that in any way breaches that right, but the notoriously heartless way the parents have been treated by the authorities puts a question mark over whether those involved so far are capable of delivering that fair trial, or even want to
If the present suspect turns out to be the killer, there will be a great deal of egg left on the faces of a fair number of law enforcers and news distributors
After over a decade of pressure ovr the Lawrence case, the British police force were finally forced to admit to gross incompetence, bias and eventually, institutional racism
The Bloody Sunday Massacre has taken three times that long to move from the ivory tower that the politicians placed it in - now those same politicians are fighting tooth and nail to see that justice will not be done, even though a verdict has been reached

The mob-howling populism that usually follows cases like the present one has no place in any decent society, but that doesn't mean that the the powers that be should not remain open to public scrutiny and be discussed rationally - as they have been here - not only permissible but, from what has transpired so far - essential - we are no loner in the tender hands of the Dixons of Dock Greens of the imagined past - politics looms over all international cases nowadays

There are parallels between this case and that of the murder of Sophie Toscan Du Plantier, which has now dragged on for over two dozen years and has finally arrived at the position where the parents of the murdered woman have forced re-investigation and the chief suspect is now fighting not to be tried in a French court
In cases like these, there are more than just the victim and the perpetrator involved
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

the relentless Press coverage at the time.

That coverage was orchestrated. Largely to garner funds to press for and pay for investigations. Getting into bed with the tabloids comes with huge caveats. The least irksome is the tendency to shorten anything that will allow larger font headlines. And don't expect them to print anything verbatim, it all has to be manipulated to the point that truth is barely represented. And the focus can swing from pity to vilification.

Because it sells.

Ask someone with experience of the verminous ratpack. Anyone of this parish who has had a smidgen of exposure to them eg.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 01:31 AM

Please don't talk about Dominic Cummings.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:52 PM

Ye gods, the vultures gather.

As Dick has clearly stated this man MAY be a suspect, until such times as he is charged AND convicted he is innocence.

Think I'll start a website selling wool and knitting needles and minature versions of a gallows.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:40 PM

It is reported in this morning Irish Times that an Irish rape victim is demanding an enquiry into her rape carried out in Portugal around the time of the girl's disappearance, by a man bearing similar scars to the arrested German and using the same methods of entrapment used on another of his victims
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM

The business with the German felon sounds like a tempest in a teapot. Evidently there is no fingerprint, blood or DNA evidence to put him on the scene.

Even if somebody photographed his van, they would have to photograph it near the apartment on the evening that Madeleine was captured. The photograph would have to include the date and time, but how could we be sure that the owner had set the date and time right?

And if the van were shown near the apartment, the felon could say that a friend had borrowed it.

As for the statement that poor Madeleine is dead, I'm sure that there are millions of people on this earth who are sure that Madeleine is dead. That statement is evidence of nothing, especially coming from the type of person who associates with criminals.

In my opinion the authorities have ripped the scab off a 13-year-old wound, and for no good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:56 AM

Showing compassion for one child does not infer any lack of compassion for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:36 AM

I'm reminded of the Moors murders. No-one has yet found the body of Keith Bennett, and Ian Brady declined to show Police where he had buried the boy. His parents have suffered for so long not having his remains to inter with dignity and find closure.
I agree that the correct verdict must be achieved by the abductor of Madeleine being properly investigated and tried.
I am full of compassion for any parents whose child has disappeared. One tragedy doesn't outdo another.
I have no children, but have worked with children (and their parents) for many years as a teacher/Guider. Every human being is precious. Evil must be hunted down and imprisoned for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 08:27 AM

a suspect is not guilty until their has been a trial. I FEEL SORRY FOR HER PARENTS BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE RIGHT PERSON IS CONVICTED

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jun 20 - 06:40 AM

Please can the media put an equal amount of attention to every other child who has gone missing over the last 13 years buit still haven't been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM

Me too, Sen. As a parent, I cannot imagine living with their pain and mental anguish for the past thirteen years.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jun 20 - 04:37 PM

I see that many people have come forward with various sightings and photos which may assist the Police in tracing the suspect's movements.
I do so hope this can be brought to a conclusion and the little girl's fate ascertained. Distressing of course for her parents, but necessary in many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:35 PM

possible suspect,at this point nothing more, he should not be identified at this moment in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 03:16 PM

If this turns out to be true, the appalling way these parents have been treated as suspects by the authorities and the media needs to be recompensed
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:57 PM

Ah yes Thompson, her twin siblings must also be carrying the burden of the grief and horror of it all.
Let's hope some solid evidence comes to light.

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:51 PM

Poor poor people. Her parents and her siblings. I pray they find her alive, or even find her little body to be able to put it to rest, for the sake of her family.
People who were on holidays in Portugal in 2007 are being asked to look through their holiday snaps to see if there's a yellow-and-white VW camper van and/or a Jaguar (pictures down towards the end in this article) or the German man - six feet tall, short-cropped hair - his picture is around the web. If enough people check their photos it's likely that police will be able to track the man's movements, and who else he met.

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:39 PM

I see Steve. I'm sorry, I didn't know that. Perhaps a helpful Mod could change the thread title to Madeleine McCann?
I agree that this might set off the conspiracy theorists, and the Press will have a field day. But my main concern is the poor McCanns and their suffering and lack of closure. After all these years of trying to cope, the whole can of worms is re-opening. Poor souls.
Also, if this man is indeed a child rapist and murderer, it's best that he's tried and convicted, then put away for life. Such people are not safe to let loose ever, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:56 PM

This will spark off a new twist of conspiracy theories...

The least far fetched, or offensive to the parents,
is euro/uk cops have found a convenient patsy for untidy unsolved crimes..

..before he is found hanged in his cell...???

Subject: RE: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:04 PM

Please allow me say that her parents did not call her "Maddie." That was pure invention on the part of the tabloids.

Subject: BS: Maddie McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:00 PM

There has been quite a lot in the news about a German, a convicted paedophile, who lived in the same resort in Portugal where the McCanns stayed when little Maddie disappeared. German Police are now investigating him, and while I believe in fair trials before convictions, and 'innocent until proven guilty', this does look a likely suspect.
The reason I'm interested is that I've always sincerely pitied the poor couple having had no closure, never knowing what became of their little girl and the relentless Press coverage at the time.
I hope enough evidence emerges for a conviction.
He has committed many extremely nasty offences, and in my view should never have been at large.