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BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?

Stilly River Sage 12 Jun 20 - 11:41 AM
Neil D 12 Jun 20 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 20 - 10:10 AM
Jeri 12 Jun 20 - 09:36 AM
Mrrzy 12 Jun 20 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 20 - 09:13 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM
Helen 12 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM
Donuel 12 Jun 20 - 05:42 AM
Neil D 12 Jun 20 - 02:00 AM
Donuel 11 Jun 20 - 03:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jun 20 - 02:55 PM
Donuel 11 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 20 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 20 - 01:26 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 20 - 01:17 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Jun 20 - 11:46 AM
Mrrzy 11 Jun 20 - 10:41 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 20 - 06:04 AM
Neil D 11 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM
Helen 11 Jun 20 - 01:19 AM
Donuel 11 Jun 20 - 12:56 AM
Donuel 10 Jun 20 - 10:01 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 20 - 08:41 PM
Donuel 10 Jun 20 - 08:33 PM
Helen 10 Jun 20 - 07:04 PM
Mossback 10 Jun 20 - 06:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM
Jeri 10 Jun 20 - 09:26 AM
Neil D 10 Jun 20 - 07:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM
Donuel 10 Jun 20 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 20 - 06:25 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM
Helen 09 Jun 20 - 11:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 20 - 10:31 PM
Helen 09 Jun 20 - 09:53 PM
Helen 09 Jun 20 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 20 - 08:04 PM
Jeri 09 Jun 20 - 08:00 PM
Helen 09 Jun 20 - 06:38 PM
Mrrzy 09 Jun 20 - 06:25 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 PM
Mossback 09 Jun 20 - 06:14 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 09 Jun 20 - 06:05 PM
Jeri 09 Jun 20 - 05:54 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Jun 20 - 05:50 PM
Mossback 09 Jun 20 - 05:49 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 09 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM
Helen 09 Jun 20 - 04:52 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 11:41 AM

Trump flew to Dallas, Texas, yesterday to "discuss race issues" with locals. Yet he excluded the top three African American officials:

"The White House defended the snub of Dallas Police Chief U. Reneé Hall, [Dallas County] Sheriff Marian Brown and [Dallas County] District Attorney John Creuzot, insisting the president would still hear a diversity of views." (from the Dallas Morning News) These are the people who were on the ground, making the decisions.

Police Chief Vernell Dooley of Glenn Heights, a town of about 13,000 south of Dallas, urged the president to support national standards on use of force by police, and databases on use of force and terminations, because “we need to be able to get those bad apples out of our industry, so what happened will never happen again."

The visit was built around a $10 million campaign dinner at the Preston Hollow mansion of billionaire Kelcy Warren, CEO of Energy Transfer, which built the Dakota Access crude oil pipeline. Two dozen donors ponied up at least $580,600 per couple for a meal and souvenir photo with Trump.

And it came amid heightened tensions nationwide since the May 25 death of George Floyd, a black suspect pinned by the neck for nearly nine minutes under the knee of a white Minneapolis police officer now facing a murder charge.

“What happened two weeks ago was a disgrace,” Trump said — immediately adding that protests and looting in the days that followed Floyd’s death also were a “disgrace” that would have been averted with a more forceful response. His vision, he said, is “force with compassion.”

Digging in on a stance that he acknowledged infuriates critics, he added that “we have to dominate the streets,” prompting applause from an audience curated by the White House.

Trump has demanded a military crackdown on protests, boasting again on Thursday morning about his stroll last week to a church near the White House, where he brandished a Bible as cameras clicked, after military and federal police used pepper gas and rubber pellets to clear protesters.

He's still working on branding, so he throws ideas against the wall to see what will stick. That "force with compassion" is the latest bullshit attempt.

Trump's real reason to be here was the campaign fundraiser, of course, he tacked on the "talks" to disguise that real reason. He spoke to a bunch of people in a prosperous area of town in a large church - churches are one of the main vectors for COVID-19, so maybe he'll finally get some first-hand experience with the novel coronavirus.

[Dallas] Mayor Eric Johnson declined an invitation from the White House. Other black officials in the area were not invited, including the three Democrats in Congress who represent parts of Dallas: Reps. Eddie Bernice Johnson and Colin Allred of Dallas, and Veasey of Fort Worth.

Allred, whose district includes the Gateway campus that hosted Trump, noted that high rollers at the campaign dinner would get coronavirus tests from White House medical personnel that aren’t universally available at long-term care facilities or for business owners and customers.

“This is a slap in the face to Texans and people across the country who are still struggling because of our failure to have a national strategy," he said. . . .

Many prominent African American leaders in Dallas were not invited, despite the event being billed as a diverse gathering of faith leaders and law enforcement, among them the Rev. Frederick Douglass Haynes III, senior pastor at the influential Friendship-West Baptist Church.

Citing the scene at St. John’s Church last week, Haynes said he wouldn’t want to be part of a “dog and pony show."

The White House did ask David Wilson, a Dallas pastor and president of the Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance, if he was willing "to be vetted” to meet with the president. He declined.

“I just can’t do it,” he said. “I really don’t want to hear the lies or be used as a prop.”

Trump lives in a world of "haves" and visited a place where most people are "have-nots." The optics of that visit aren't lost on people. In Trump's world, the only lives that matter are his own and members of his family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 11:12 AM

Excellent show Helen. I like watching foreign news programs like BBC America News, seeing our situation from a different vantage point. Before my wife switched cable services I also had access to a French news channel and Al Jazeera.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 10:10 AM

Trump's new 'Klanlike' crusade on 'righting' history to show that America is historically white and blacks re "intruders" on that culture seem to have gone a step too far, even for the right
I listened to one of his supporters on Irish Radio this morning, first trying to justify it then throwing in the towel admitting that he was not only wrong, but is now losing the support of his party and those who voted them into office   
The interviewer's ability to reduce the Trumpeter to this made Carol Coleman's historical butchering of George W Bush at Dromoland a decade ago look like the blunderings of a cub reporter
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 09:36 AM

The people who are openly racist have been getting some positive strokes here in the US. Nothing happens in a society unless the majority of people want it to happen, and it seems like the tide has turned in many places. It seemed like that happened here when Obama was elected.
Twice
And then people weren't happy enough, so they didn't care about the slight inconvenience of having Trump as President. This is what apathy gets you. But perhaps, for big change to happen, we have to start from somewhere truly horrible. Most of the world seems to be coming together to make a stand about what's right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 09:19 AM

Here is an interesting map of the monuments...

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2020/06/mapping-hundreds-confederate-statues-200610103154036.html

Blicky


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 09:13 AM

USA or UK..

Folks who are still openly racist white supremacists
are at least, in a perverse way, to be acknowledged for their honesty..

Then there's the petty sneaky snide folks constantly mocking BLM's attempts
at protest for long overdue justice;
who are perhaps even more contemptible for their insidious need to diminish and obstruct positive progress.
While maintaining a public pretense facade that they care about all races...???

Those smug conservative "I'm not a racist.. but..." folks...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

I see the Boy Scouts have mounted a guard over Baden Powell's statue
The Tories, at the behest of Patel, have threatened fast- track justice or protesters - maybe the sentence will be to be hanged by the woggle till dead
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

Neil D, you have raised some worthwhile issues. Thanks.

I was just watching the latest episode of an Australian TV show called
Planet America's Fireside Chat and the presenters were saying much the same about confederate monuments and generals.

The show is related to Planet America

I don't know if the iView capability is available outside Australia so you may not be able to view it online.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 05:42 AM

Trump has grossly underestimated the thirst for another race based civil war and the BLM movement is the response. He will not have the support from the military and State based National Guards are in question. The only military parade he may have will be the one escorting him out of town to walk home from 120th st NYC.
The few militia morons willing to sacrifice their life for Donald will be dealt with quickly and decicisively.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Neil D
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 02:00 AM

A word on the related issues of taking down Confederate monuments and renaming military bases named after Confederate generals. Trump is against both and today paraphrased the Santayana quote about those forgetting the past being doomed to repeat it, showing that he isn't literate enough to understand the quote. Nevertheless, let's review a bit of history. Those monuments were not erected in the aftermath of the Civil War. Some were erected in the aftermath of WWII when black soldiers coming home from Europe felt entitled to better treatment. Erecting Confederate statues was a subtle way of saying "guess again". The massacre in and destruction of the Greenwood district of Tulsa was less subtle. Many other Confederate monuments were erected in the fifties, clearly a white reaction to desegregation and voter registration drives. Similarly the naming of bases came during the World Wars after laws were passed allowing for the recruitment pf black soldiers. With a need for more bases because of the wars, many were built in the South because land was cheap. The government named them after local CSA generals as an appeasement to white southerners who were less than enthusiastic about "Yankee" bases being built in their backyards. Trump claims that they were named for leaders who have been admired by modern military leaders for their brilliance in battle. Actually many of them, Bragg, Pickens and Polk, are more remembered for their blunders.
To look at the issue in another perspective, there's a reason we would never allow Germans to build monuments to Hitler and Goebbels or name our bases there Fort Rommel and Airbase Goring. The idea of not giving modern day fascists and white nationalists rallying points is just as valid here as it is there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 03:20 PM

All this really sounds like a global 'We The People' momment while some politicians are mere statues of the old world like Apostles of Forgetfullness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 02:55 PM

Here is what you sound like, WAV:


Imagine your child has died and you
are giving a eulogy explaining what your
own child meant to you and how special
your child was, and then someone (perhaps
WAV or Bonzo) grabs the mic and says,
"Actually, all children are special . . . "

That's what "all lives matter" sounds like.


Does this illustration help? Tone-deafness is treatable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM

:This could be the start of something big:
written by Steve Allen for Eddie and Robert Goulet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 02:12 PM

"Deja vu all over again."
I tend to think things are somewhat different now Mossy "There comes a time in men's lives, as The Kingston Trio were fond of singing (MTA)
Hopefully, Covid will bring changes that the sinking of the Titanic did to the class nature of shipping and W.W I should have to many other things - if people lay their cards right, "this could be the start of something big" as somebody else sang
I'm hoping to see Travellers out on the streets demanding to be recognised as human beings - that was something suggested by The Lord Mayor of Dublin a couple of hours ago on the radio
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 01:26 PM

No
They certainly shouldn't erect statues to people who believe they should
People who joined the resitance were Terrorists, as were those who fought for Israel, Ireland India..... and every country who ever gained independence from the British, German, French - even Roman Empire
Terrorism his a word big countries apply to anybody who opposes them
Like Antisemitism, it has been conveniently rendered meaningless
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 01:17 PM

There was good & bad (resorting to terrorism) in Mandela as well, so should his statues around the world also come down? My poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, on Masai land rights, "Out of Place"


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 11:46 AM

In response to Neil's post:

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/10/874339995/doj-cases-brought-over-protests-show-no-links-to-antifa-so-far

"Attorney General William Barr has blamed anti-fascist activists for violence during protests over George Floyd's death. But records show no sign of antifa links in Justice Department cases."

Quite the opposite, in fact. It's just more Trump and Barr lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 10:41 AM

I've been dating for *years* that if the press reported that cops had killed another *citizen* rather than another [insert color of skin here], the outrage would have started a lot sooner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 06:04 AM

"We cheered when the Berlin Wall was torn down"
Can we assume that those outraged at the removal of slave-owners statues are giving their support to the many who are demanding the re-establishment of the monuments to THEIR NATIONAL HERO
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM

In my last post I cited a Reuters article that showed a scan of federal arrest records found no evidence of antifa involvement in the current unrest. Since then, police depts in several major cities including NYC & LA have made basically the same statement: the vast majority of looting is being done by previously known gangs opportunistically using protests as cover for criminal activity. So, surprise, the thieving is being done by career thieves. Let me be clear, these are criminal enterprises with NO political affiliation. No anarchists, no left-wingers and certainly no antifa. This won't keep the government from continuing to misplace the blame. The FBI director recently accused antifa of inciting violence, but when pressed, he couldn't even define antifa. Trump himself, with no evidence, made this claim about a 75 yr old man who was shoved to the ground by riot police and suffered a fractured skull: “Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?". Me-heavy sigh. Mr Gugino is a devout Catholic and life-long peace advocate, scanning police equipment to cause a communication blackout is pure Sci-Fi and, really, how hard do two burly cops have shove a slight 75 yr old to cause him to fall over backwards. Twitter didn't block or flag this tweet, saying it was phrased as speculation. So, as long as you make a slimy insinuation instead of an outright accusation, it isn't libel. The problem with a specious claim like this is that it spreads and mutates, like Rashomon to the 100th power, until it gains traction and even people who aren't Trumpists start to believe it.
Helen, you are absolutely right about the campaign rally. As soon as I heard the date and site I didn't need the newsreaders to tell me this was racial provocation. Also, thank you for providing the Kimberly Jones link.
Here is another example of Trump's lack of empathy for black Americans. For three days the top leadership of our military have been discussing renaming military bases that honor Confederate generals, Ft Bragg, Ft Hood etc. Yesterday Trump said no way, we're not renaming anything. His convoluted logic was that because soldiers trained at these facilities for WWII, Korea, VN and our current wars, they can't have new names.
I apologize that my last couple posts have been a bit long-winded. I put it down to 10 weeks of self-quarantine, watching the news and reading stories on the net for hours a day and having only my wife and son to talk to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 01:19 AM

If you were unsure of Trump's motivations around racial tensions before, maybe this gives a clearer picture:

Donald Trump says campaign rallies will resume next week despite US coronavirus fears

"The first rally is likely to be in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on June 19, despite fears over the spread of COVID-19 which has caused more than 115,000 deaths in the US."

......

"The projected rally's June 19 date is potentially racially charged.

"June 19 is known as Juneteenth, a day to commemorate the emancipation of the last slaves at the end of the American Civil War in 1865.

"The city of Tulsa is where black residents and businesses were attacked by whites in 1921 in what is known as the Tulsa Race Massacre.

"Kamau Marshall, a spokesman for the presidential campaign of Mr Trump's Democratic rival Joe Biden, condemned the choice of venue as "racist" on Twitter."


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jun 20 - 12:56 AM

I'm dead chuffed the UK is sharing BLM


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 10:01 PM

Mono culture proves to be a disaster in society and agriculture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 08:41 PM

Grand letter in the Guardian:

"We cheered when the Berlin Wall was torn down. We cheered when statues of Gaddafi were torn down. We cheered when statues of Saddam Hussein were torn down. We are called thugs when we tear down statues of slave traders."


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 08:33 PM

Dats fur shur mossback butt da prez wants da millyterry basses named aftur confederate genrals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:04 PM

Thanks Jeri. I totally agree with your comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:41 PM

It is the End Times for sure ..........

NASCAR has banned the Confederate flag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

so whitehouse and longford and all their censorious tut tutting victorian kind
were woke lefties...


.. well I never...!!!


Bonz - if you still want to use the old fashioned hilarius race related language from 1970s TV shows
like "Love Thy Neighbour"..

It's a free world..

Call black folks those humerous names, as much as you like, in public,
if it'll make you feel better...

You are free to do so..
The only person who can stop you, is yourself...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 09:26 AM

We give idiocy too much air, but whatever floats your boat.

Helen, whoever gets shot by police for no reason is a tragedy. With Black Lives Matter, it's about racism. Those people are black, so no one will care much. We won't get into trouble. It's how the wild west mentality plays out. Justin Damond's murder wasn't less tragic. I don't know what the cop's excuse was in her case.

What it all comes down to is that wild west mentality. To poor training, and to police not being held accountable for murdering people. When people here say "defund the police", I don't think that's a good idea. I think that all police ought to have the same training, which ought to be overseen by people who know what they're doing. That social programs ought to be funded, so cops didn't have to be social workers, or EMTs, or any of the other jobs that are foisted on them now. That all that military-style equipment be sold so maybe we could buy some food for people. And that cops with balls turn their backs on that blue line of ass-covering and prosecute the shit out of the bad ones.

So it's not ONLY racism, but the combination with bad-cop-ism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Neil D
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:36 AM

SRS, thanks for the tip on the URLs. Thanks also for pointing out the role being played by right-wing extremists in much of the violence occurring at these protests. This has been very much underreported by the media. The aspect of the Republican response to the unrest that has been most puzzling and disturbing to me from the start has been how they keep blaming Antifa for looting and vandalism. It started with Trump saying he was going to have "ANTIFA" declared a terrorist organization. In the first place we don't even have a procedure for declaring any organization terrorist in this country. In the second place Antifa isn't even an organization, it is a philosophy. People who identify as Antifascist do not loot and vandalize. What they do do is fight Neo-nazis, KKK and other fascist groups, in the street if necessary. And that's pretty much all they do, yet Trump has laid nearly all violent protests at there door. Then Republican senators picked up the ball. One even proposed hunting them down and killing them.
None of the American news media has looked into this but Reuters investigated by checking the arrest records of every single person arrested by federal law enforcement since the protests begin. I'm sure they will eventually get to those arrested by local police, but for now they have not found one single suspect with any affiliation or self-identity with Antifa. (There was only one arrestee who even claimed anarchist beliefs but he had no affiliation with any left-wing groups.) So no Antifa, very little anarchist or other left-wing affiliation, but armed Boogaloo Boys have been arrested in at least 6 cities. Boogaloo Boys, some call themselves the Boogahedin, are an extreme right-wing organization calling for a second Civil War. There name actually comes from an early slogan, Civil War 2, Electric Boogaloo which was a mocking take-off on a break dancing movie from'82 called "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo". Three of them arrested in Las Vegas were caught in the act of instigating violence, shouting stuff like peaceful protest doesn't work, we need to tear this shit down. They got no takers from among the peaceful protesters. Police found gasoline bottles and rags in their car. Three more of this group were arrested for three separate acts of violence in Columbia SC.
As I said, this has been underreported, and the problem with Trumps scurrilous and entirely groundless accusations against Antifascists is that once it gets in the wind it spreads far and wide and people begin to accept it as fact without knowing the source. My own son, who is very much FOR Black Lives Matter and very much against Trump, said the other day that it was a shame Antifa was starting all this trouble that BLM was getting blamed for. I said "No, no, no, no, no!" and went on to explain everything I just stated here. He wasn't even aware that the canard originated in Trump's feverish imagination.
I'm not even sure what made Trump glom onto Antifascists as scapegoats. Is is a carryover from Charlotteville when they stood up to his White Nationalist friends or is it even more basic. After all, if you claim to be Anti-antifascist, doesn't that, logically, make you a fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

It's a fair guess Orwell would be spinning [and puking] in his grave
every time a hard-line right winger misappropriates and cynically distorts the meaning
of his words...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:44 AM

the 75 year old Buffalo man who was pushed and injured is reported by TRUMP to be an Antifa provocateur. Who knew? A reporter at OAS J Rouse, ,former reporter for Sputnik, apparently knew this without evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:25 AM

Here's the thing about statues, Bonzo. The people who are represented by statues in public places are people who we are supposed to celebrate, who are supposed to have achieved great things. But the people who decide who's worthy of the accolade are generally the establishment. So the statues are put up, often with a little plaque telling us of the great achievements. Any plaque accompanying any statue of Churchill will say what a great war leader he was. What it won't tell us is that he was also a racist, a little Englander and an arch-misogynist who was responsible for the Dardanelles fiasco that killed tens of thousands of our young men (including my great uncle Jimmy, so call me biased). The statue of Colston in Bristol had four plaques depicting various heroic scenes, but one of them bore the words "Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city". Well he founded schools and almshouses and was generally a fine philanthropist (so was Jimmy Savile, I should like to remind you). What the plaque doesn't tell you was that he made his money to pay for those things via his slaving company, an enterprise that enslaved at least 100,000 people into misery and killed around 20,000 of them who were unceremoniously pitched overboard when they died. For years there has been argument in Bristol as to how the plaque should be reworded, but nothing has happened. There has also been a petition signed by tens of thousands to have the statue removed. No response to that either. Frustrating, innit.

So to those people who bleat that tearing down statues is destroying history, etc., I'd say that real history is a damn sight more honest than those statues which are essentially saying that the good that men do lives after them but the evil is oft interred with their bones. You'd take your child out of any school that proudly insisted on teaching history in that extremely partial way. It's a thoroughly disingenuous claim propagated by mostly people on the right. I've repeatedly asked about what you thought of Saddam's statue being torn down. I wonder what you might have thought if those huge street portraits of Mao or Stalin, confronting you round every corner, had been vandalised or torn down by protesters. They would have needed to be a damn sight braver than the Bristol protesters. And that's something to contemplate as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue & street building has been renamed, every date has been altered & the process is continuing day by day & minute by minute. History has stopped."
GeorgeOrwell

This is what the left appear to want!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 11:15 PM

Well, pfr, the statement itself, taken in isolation from the current context, is a good one. All lives matter. Yes, they do. If someone had said that to me two weeks ago I'd have thought it was a good empathetic statement with broadly beneficial intentions.

However, within the implied meanings attributed to the statement now there is a whole 'nother world of intentions, and I think those are the intentions which need to be outed and pulled apart and examined, and the people making the statement need to be held accountable for their intentions towards all other people sharing this planet.

In fact, I think - or in fact, I hope - that the people who spout this slogan may be "hoist by their own petard" because if someone started to reason with them (assuming that they can be reasoned with, which for some people I seriously doubt) then they may just have to admit that "all lives matter" also encompasses lives of people who are not white, not equal in society, not equal in financial status, not equal in educational or career opportunities, not equal in housing opportunities etc etc etc.


People who live their lives within that bubble of privileges that they take for granted could benefit from a wider world view.

I'm not holding my breath for that to happen to all of them, but it is a possibility for some people mindlessly spouting the slogan to open their minds to a new perspective on the world around them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 10:31 PM

Any antagonist folks who right now are still so block headed ignorant,
they stubbornly willfully contest that "All lives matter"..

well.. nope.. their's don't...

In fact the world could be much better of without 'em...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 09:53 PM

A priority at the present time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:06 PM

Thanks Jeri. But I echo your comment: One white woman? Really?

To me as an Australian it is an embarrassment that one white Australian woman's life is valued more highly than all the non-white lives lost or destroyed over the decades and centuries. Not just in the US, but here as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:04 PM

"...that's why black lives matter at the present time..."

For the life of me I can't work out what this means...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:00 PM

Helen: "Jeri, if this was aimed at me then I think you may have missed my point"

I did- my apology.

When somebody follows "black lives matter" with "all lives matter", what I'm hearing is "F.U. I'm just as important as a black person whom I personally couldn't care less about because he was black, who was just murdered by a cop". Or in other words, "I don't care about THEM".


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:38 PM

Jeri, if this was aimed at me then I think you may have missed my point:

"Can we quit the "whataboutism" now?"

What I was trying to point out was that so many black people are killed or assaulted or incarcerated by police and little or no action is taken against the police officers, however when the roles are reversed suddenly the full force of "justice" is brought into play and the black police officer is charged and convicted within two short years. The whataboutism is, what about all of those injured or killed or incarcerated black people whose lives mean nothing to the people in power?

And if some people are saying, "All lives matter equally" then it is time to level out the imbalance and that's why black lives matter at the present time because the inequality between black and white people is huge and all of the elements contributing to this inequality need to be resolved as a matter of urgency.

Bring all people to an equal footing in terms of education, social situations, justice, health, and all of the contributing factors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:25 PM

Saying All lives matter is being the child who insists on presents when it's someone else's birthday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 PM

You're playing games and wasting your logical fallacies here, ABCD. To cut to the chase, you're pulling up shit excuses to try to diminish the circumstances as they are now, and like I said, blame the victim. Go away, if this is your position. You're not contributing to a discussion of what change is on the way. You're in the dark ages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:14 PM

More irrelevancies.yet still, it probably deserves two - no wait!- THREE Confederate flags.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:05 PM

What? Not blaming any victims, but pointing out that those human beings enslaved years ago in the continent of Africa were enslaved by people of their own race. Slave Traders and Slave Owners saw these human beings as disposable economic units to be exploited and replaced. The same could be said of those Slave Dealers who supplied them. Differences in skin colour seem less important than similarity of attitude. Concepts of racial inferiority are normally related to later justifications based on some peoples' use of early work on genetics. I do prefer to be consistent, and would no more "blame" the ancestors of many black people in America for being enslaved than I would "blame" the ancestors of many white people in Australia for their having been transported. It's the Power Relationships that matter, though I appreciate that a derisory parrotting of "Blame the victim!" is convenient, and certainly more attuned to the spirit of the age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:54 PM

I couldn't find comprehensive statistics, but police killed over 100 black people in 2015. One white Australian woman is bad too, but really.

Racism isn't the only problem, but it is one huge problem. I think cops are less likely to murder white people and get away with it. Noor was sentenced to 12 1/2 years in prison. Many of the murderers of unarmed blacks don't even get prosecuted, let alone convicted.

Can we quit the "whataboutism" now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:50 PM

that European traders were supplied with human beings by other people born in Africa,

Ah - I see you like to play Blame the Victim.

It won't wash. Peddle it someplace else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:49 PM

And the first prize for totally irrelevant nonsense goes to:

An Buachaill Caol Dubh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

The conflation of Slavery and what is now termed "Race" is unfortunate, but lucky for some. Since it is well attested* that European traders were supplied with human beings by other people born in Africa, it's remarkable that so many otherwise perceptive people are - I assume sincerely - content to concentrate on the relevant matter of "Race", while at the same time being deaf to those who emphasise the real, fundamental issue, that of Power. While the Aboriginal peoples in other colonized lands are - or were, in some cases - of a different racial group from those wielding power, the instance I have given of oppression, exploitation and not-infrequent slaughter of Scottish people cannot conveniently be attributed to "Racism". There are, naturally, plenty other examples.

A useful question, "cui bono", is generally relevant. Who benefits from people arguing among themselves, or fighting like savages, about one aspect of Power Relationships, without ever looking more broadly at "The Big Picture"? Another useful wee Latin tag is, "divide et impera", which could usefully be contrasted with, "E pluribus unum". Wasn't there an American politician more than a century ago who said, or wrote, something about your Slavery question being a form of "unfinished business" from your War of Independence? Eight score and so years ago a sort of "second round" was fought.
There used to be a slogan here about "Black and White unite and fight". But why should one agenda - important though it be - allow the real issue (Power) to be concealed?
Look --- distraction!


* "Travels in ... Africa" by Mungo Park, c.1800, is a reliable and detailed source to start with, though in the current environment I know he could be termed a "dead white male" and his works dismissed accordingly (and conveniently, for some).


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 04:52 PM

A white Australian woman was shot by a police officer in 2017 who was charged in 2018 and convicted in 2019.

What's different to the George Floyd murder? The woman was white. The police officer was not white. There was an international uproar and the police officer was convicted.

Justine Damond

"On July 15, 2017, Justine Damond (née Ruszczyk) a 40-year-old Australian-American woman, was fatally shot by a 33-year-old Mohamed Noor, a Somali-American Minneapolis Police Department officer, after she had called 9-1-1 to report the possible assault of a woman in an alley behind her house. Occurring weeks after a high-profile manslaughter trial acquittal in the 2016 police shooting of Philando Castile, also in the Twin Cities metro area, the shooting exacerbated existing tensions and attracted national and international press.

"On March 20, 2018, Noor was charged with second-degree manslaughter and third-degree murder. Prosecutors later upgraded the charges against Noor to second-degree intentional murder. In April 2019, Noor was convicted of third-degree murder and manslaughter, but acquitted of intentional second-degree murder. In June 2019, Noor was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison. Damond's family brought a civil lawsuit against the City of Minneapolis alleging violation of Damond's civil rights, which the city settled for $US20 million, one of the largest-ever settlements in a suit involving a police killing."

Also, I read one of the many articles on Oz's ABC News site - www.abc.net.au - and a comment stood out to me. An indigenous Australian was commenting on the number of white people who were involved in the peaceful protests and said that if police started looking threatening towards the black people, some of the white people would move in front of them because they were confident that the police would be less likely to go for them. That is a heroic thing to do, IMO, but also a sad indictment of the way the world works at present.


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