Apache recorded 60 years ago!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 08:23 AM

Just heard the sad news that Brian ‘Licorice’ Locking, long-time bass player with The Shadows, has passed away.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Captain Swing
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:27 PM

Anyone remember this version?

Apache Dropout - Edgar Broughton Band

I'll get me coat!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 05:42 PM

I've been trying to remember 60s groups whose guitarists used a DeArmond volume/tone pedal the ones that came to mind were The Hunters, Neil Christian & the Crusaders (Jimmy Page) and Tony Rivers & the Casterways.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 03:21 PM

For a few months in the early 80s when I was a student,
my landlady was the ex-wife of one of Cliff Richard's live tour bass players..

I sneaked a look at his bass guitars once,
when he left them in the house overnight.
Amazing top quality session musician's instruments...

One of them might have been the bass guitar,
he played on the recording session of the theme for Postman Pat...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 03:05 PM

And in keeping with the 'sort of' Shadows theme Mr. Rivers sang back up with Cliff Richard for many years. And he's from Shildon.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 01:51 PM

Who remembers Tony Rivers & the Castaways - absolutely brilliant band!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 02:44 PM

thats 30

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 01:09 PM

Over the years I've had my 'Joe Meek Produced' bands and solo artists phases..

I'm the only person I know who likes Heinz Burt...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 12:52 PM

Or how it's performed!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 12:45 PM

btw.. I'm not having a dig at any of my mudcat folkie mates,
WE enjoy good music, irrespective of genre or vintage...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 12:22 PM

Mods - sorry, i couldn't resist...

Maybe I should start a new thread

"So, how many self-identifying folkies actually enjoy music...???"

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 12:05 PM

Meanwhile, early 1960s pop and beat music still inspires far more serious musicians
than even the good acoustic folk music ever will...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 06:06 AM

Trad Jazz night was Tuesdays for Barnet Jazz Club there - deafening banjo pumping trad !!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 05:50 AM

Try going to the Mother of all Bullsh*t thread then

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 05:30 AM

There was always loads of folks there Dave

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 03:29 AM

But was it a folk club? ;-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 01:53 AM

It was the Union Hall in Barnet that housed band nights, where I first saw Sutch and others, not the Assembly Hall, which must have been somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:31 PM

There is indeed, Gerry! Terry Sampson used to run Saturday night dances at all three venues - all the top bands.

I’ll wait for an email about the Malt Shovel sessions - Sunday’s not a great night for me but it would be good to get out and have a play/sing.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:59 PM

You've got me baffled now BWM "the one in between? Is there a drill hall in Gainsborough?
Don't know whats happening with the Malt Shovel session at the moment but it would be great to see you again
Gerry

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:53 PM

Neither! The one between those two.

I saw the Rolling Stones at Lincoln Drill Hall on New Year’s Eve, 1963 - stood front row dead centre, Jagger strutted his stuff about six feet in front of me. And I played in the support band for the Big Three there around that time. Never played Scunny Drill Hall, but I’ve played at The Baths Hall a few times, as well as the Café Dansante in Cleethorpes, and pretty much every club in Grimsby!

It’s been a grand life!

I’ll try to get to the Malt Shovel again when things are back to normal...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:33 PM

Just googled Cafe Dansant Cleethorpes
Can't remember it but went to quite a few festivals and events at the Winter Gardens over the years

Bwm did you mean the Drill hall Scunthorpe or the Drill Hall Lincoln?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 10:02 AM

Neil Christian & the Crusaders was another band on the same circuit as Sutch, which often included ex Savages or musicians who became Savages at one time or another. The only time I saw them had Jimmy Page on guitar!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:42 AM

Ah yes, I remember seeing Cyril Davies in London but his Savages line up had been changed, I think they fell out with him. Andy Wren was on piano when I saw the first Blackmore line up.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:19 AM

I saw Sutch at The Café Dansant, Cleethorpes in 1962. Bernie 'Strawberry' Watson on guitar, Carlo Little on drums, Ricky Fenson on bass and Nicky Hopkins on piano. As a curtain operator I was at the side of the stage as Lord Sutch came off wearing a pair of false breasts (him, not me) I bumped into him and accidentally cracked his costume "you'll ruin all the bladdy gear!" he said. The next time he came he must have forgotten as he was quite friendly. This time he had a whole new band as the original Savages had gone off to play with Cyril Davies.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM

I still have Sutch's first 6 singles. I first saw Sutch in September 1962 in I think The Assembly Hall in Barnet, with what I consider to be the best line up of the Savages which included a scrawny shy 17 year old Ritchie Blackmore on guitar. The following year The Savages included Geoff Mew on guitar and Freddie Fingers Lee on piano in the Territorial Army Hall in Barnet, a huge cavern of a place. By the next time I saw Sutch he had recruited most of Paul Dean & the Dreamers as Savages with original bass player Rick Brown - they were a good line up. Next was the 4 saxes Savages with Ritchie Blackmore once again who I saw at a cinema in Potters Bar, I never thought Sutch came over too well in a large venue. Final time in 60s was at a club in East London as Lord Caesar Sutch & the Roman Empire, Ritchie Blackmore had just left unfortunately and his replacement on guitar was not up to standard.

Never saw him again until early 1980s with Glen Stoner on guitar who was good but the others were forgettable.

Only Sutch could get away with performing on stage with a lavatory seat around his neck!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:20 AM

Saw them a few times at the Drill Hall, BF. Back in the days when he was carried on to the stage in a coffin.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Banjo flower
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM

One of the best live acts back then was Screaming Lord Sutch and the Savages but you had to see them live what a fantastic showman he was

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Did he play on anything else memorable?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:05 AM

I love "Move It" especially the guitar of Ernie Shear.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:47 AM

Fantastic! I played a couple of gigs with a rockabilly band in the 1980s but I was told off for bending strings - not something you stop doing easily!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:20 PM

Good man!

My last electric band, which I was in from 1997 to 2005, played nothing but R&R from the years 1957 to 1961. We had the Teddy-Boy suits with drape-coats, bootlace ties, brothel-creepers, the lot. The only thing I didn’t have was the quiff and the DA (insufficient raw material!).

‘Move It’ was on the set list for every gig.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:50 PM

BWM - I could just have easily called myself prebeatlesbritrocknrollfolkrocker..

I have a seriously extensive CD collection..

It's addictive...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:06 PM

Here ya go... ignore the naff video, it’s got sod all to do with the recording.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:58 PM

Try ‘Apron Strings’ pfr - another great rocker.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

Rossey - sorry, I didn't check back well enough to make sure I wasn't duplicating another post..

I first heard the Cliff live in the studio LP with Move it around 1980,
when I was coming out of punk/ new wave,
and looking back on Brit rock history..

I immediately though it was surprisingly excellent, and needed to rethink my ingrained prejudice
regarding Cliff the smarmy born again god botherer...

The movie "Expresso Bongo" definitely helps...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:29 PM

Hi Punkfolkrocker.. I posted the sloppy 1961 performance a couple of threads above as well. It was just Cliff playing in a spoof.. dropping notes etc. It was all live so no doubt he was a bit nervous. Proof that not everybody can play it well. A shame that Hank never got the honour of being the original guitar player on 'Move It'. No matter what we think of Cliff's later singing work and acquired cheesy image, that is one of the all time seminal British rock n'roll singles. The Beatles did a sloppy version of 'Move it' during the 'Let it Be' Sessions (where almost everything was sloppy!). The Beatles also threw in Apache during their long sets in Hamburg days c1960. (even if they were at times dismissive of the Shadows).

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 02:41 PM

GUEST POST, 12 20 was not me check the computer ips

---

That may be correct, but you logged out and posted an anonymous troll message above - and I caught it and marked you as the sender. This is it. If you and Mr. Carroll cannot stop trolling threads at Mudcat, we will stop you. We don't want your complaints and excuses and threats any more. We are done with this. If you want to continue posting at Mudcat, then join in the discussion in a civil manner. Other people are having a good time, and you two keep dumping garbage on us. Stop it. Now.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:53 PM

That's classic!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:33 PM

Bonz - apologies if this clip has already been posted here..

The Shadows "Apache" live 1961, complete with sloppy lead guitar bum notes..

Hank wasn't himself on that performance, that's for sure...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Aha it's disappeared!!

Hank plays gypsy jazz finger busting solo!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:05 PM

Gone. And still watching, Dick.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:00 PM

That guest at 12:20pm is Dick Miles again talking drivel on something he knows nothing about.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,bernieandred
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:38 PM

There's a great podcast called A History of Rock Music in 500 songs. This weeks episode is about Apache. Very good with lots of details you may not know.
If you're interested in the tune and not a bunch of off-topic squabbling, give the podcast a listen. https://www.500songs.com/

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:28 PM

More than one player here has said that Apache proved hard to play. I can believe it. Is it that do do-du do do-du do do-du DUH part in the middle? I've been trying it on air guitar, and it takes real finger independence.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 06:25 PM

Quite heavy for that time!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

The Shadows Shadoogie ( live at the ABC Kingston 1962 )

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM

I bought a CD earlier this century of Cliff and the Shads live at the ABC..

It was intended for release back in the early 60s,
but shelved at the last moment for 'technical reasons'..

Maybe the Shads were a bit too rockin' and maybe distorted their amps ever so slightly too much
for early 60s EMI sound engineers..

I thought it was a good live album...

But eventually forgot I had it, or which box it is in,
and have not listened to it for too many years...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

Sorry the link didn't work! Cliff being a Shadow.. not totally successful, but nerves no doubt played a part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

Guest, did say that Hank Marvin stuck with one sound.. this is actually not quite true. Though we have the stereotype signature sound of the Shadows.. they actually introduced one of the first acoustic guitar pieces of its type into the high ends of the UK charts with the simple, but effective 'Guitar Tango'.. and also later used various guitar effects with less success, before moving back into the more MOR market with covers using the old sound.   This is Cliff playing Apache live with three of the Shadows in a spoof... (slightly nervously, with stumbles and dropped notes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM

..and their tamer reverb drenched surf version back in the 60s...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7KkYSFCpJs

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM

I dictated "happily" but google voice input was obviously vibing too much on the flower power sunshine groove
and decided it was a "Happening"..

fair enough...


ahem...

DAVIE ALLAN + THE ARROWS - "APACHE '65"

still rockin' live in 2009...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:20 AM

Well, for all the thread spoiling moaners stating the obvious
that the Shadows were only an anodyne family entertainment pop group.

I'm now happening enjoying the sunshine listening to my favourite 1960s instrumental guitar group..

Davie Allan and the Arrows..

Most noted for scoring the groovy rocking fuzzbox mayhem soundtracks
of cheap nasty 1960s exploitation biker movies..

The Shadows and the Ventures are the entry drug...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:06 AM

Yeah, PFR, the writing is on the wall for all to see. Stay or go? At least he was on topic, dismissive as it was.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

I think the fact that it’s written in intelligible English, and incorporating proper punctuation precludes it from being one particular member notorious for his rudeness and thread-wrecking behaviour, pfr.

But I could hazard a guess at who else it might be, and I’d probably be right first time...

Or it could just be a non-member passer-by, poking his shirt-stirring stick in. Either way, it’s not worth responding to.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:10 AM

I bet that anonymous GUEST was Hank himself having a laugh with us...

I mean, surely no mudcat member would log out just to post that..
Why on earth would he.. errrmmm.. they...???

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM

Isn't that the point? It's pop music.. 'popular', this just started off as a thread about the 60th anniversary of a great, catchy and influential instrumental pop tune. Not about the technical art of the guitarist, analysed to death by guitar anoraks. They were never meant to be rock, or R and b gods. They were initially youths playing catchy themed tunes - though they later veered off into experimental areas. That was the point, the popular perceived simplicity of their work was a factor in people picking up guitars.. as much as many others of the time in the pre-Beatle hit days. Hank is now playing Gypsy Jazz.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:39 AM

Hank Marvin is one of the most over-rated guitarists that ever walked a stage. I'm not saying he wasn't a good guitarist. Indeed, I have heard a fair bit of his playing, and it is clear that the bloke is more than competent. But I cannot accept that he is a great guitarist. Apart from some very ordinary and extremely simplistic guitar songs, Hank Marvin has done absolutely nothing to advance electric guitar technique, or to make me sit back and exclaim "wow!" That's exactly what I expect from a great guitarist.
      Chuck Berry had a far greater influence on rock music than Hank Marvin ever did. His licks can be heard in the early stuff of Clapton, Page, Keith Richards, Pete Townsend, and many others. And Chuck Berry nicked his stuff from the great black blues guitarists!

All Hank Marvin did was take the stuff that the truly great (black) guitarists were playing, slow it down, and add a quirky repetitive dance routine.What Hank had was good simple tunes played well.
   He inspired others to play guitar because the sound was obtainable. You could hum the tune, you could pick it out on one or two strings in ten minutes.
I can remember friends going home from school and playing his records in their lunch hour
He was a good guitarist and had a good ear for a catchy tune. But he developed his one sound and stuck with it.


The Shadows didn't start having hits until 1960 - I believe Apache was the first one. There had been a whole range of 50's rock'n'roll guitarists beforehand who had far more technique and ability.

---

This GUEST goes by the name of Dick Miles. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

But they did form Marvin welch and Farrar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66HgVOlOYg

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

I had a poster of Hank in my bedroom he was gorgeous.
However, Hank Marvin has revealed that The Beatles' electric guitar player George Harrison encouraged them to change their approach following the release of Don't Make My Baby Blue.

"He told me how much he loved the single,"Hank Marvin commented.

"'Take my advice,' he said - 'forget about being an instrumental group and follow up on the vocals'."

However, The Shadows did not take this advice - a decision that Hank Marvin said he now regrets.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

For guitar anoraks 22 minute analysis of Apache. (I don't play - but can mime, badly).    Coming up 25 years in July since Jerry Lordan died - so in another 45 years, the tune will be a trad. work! The original recording itself is out of EU copyright, having been made pre-1962. Wonderful rhythm guitar by Bruce Welch.

Guitar Teacher reacts The Shadows Apache

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

Define "best" :-D

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

Marvin is simply the best guitarist there ever was.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:16 PM

Wasn't the Hoffnung cartoon vacuum cleaner in the key of Bb?
We're on 50hz in the UK.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger.
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

Apache certainly influenced me to take up the gitter, and I'm still struggling.
17/06/1960, my 11th birthday!!
Good to see Hank still going strong at 78.
Good thread- back to sanity!
Roger.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

Joe - if I remember correctly, I used to tune to a G off our phone,
if I just picked the handset up and didn't dial anything.

Also my electric shaver hummed a constant note, again G.. or maybe D...???

Too long ago to remember..

It was brilliant when our band got a Vox organ, and we no longer had to tune off
whatever piano we could find at any gig venue...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

"I suspect the popular acts at the time influenced the source singers ;-)"

well as I mentioned earlier in a now disappeared post

At 60, Apache is older than most folk revival LPs...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM

What's the frequency of alternating current in England, Dave. It's 60 Hz. in the US, so we've very familiar with a 60-cycle hum, a tone almost exactly halfway between A? and B. So, what's your frequency and its tone? Would an A be 44 Hz?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:57 PM

ears

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:31 PM

The things we did to get ‘em n tune before electronic tuners were invented! ;-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:25 PM

I had a friend used to tune his D string to the hum an IBM tape drive made!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

I used to tune my guitar to Apache, trouble was we had a gramophone built by my Dad which had an ex GPO turntable marked for 33 1/3 and 78rpm. We made a mark for 45rpm but the belt was worn and so it was different every time!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:51 PM

First tune I learned to play, Al. Long before I even knew how to play E, A and B7!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:49 PM

i don't find Apache all that easy to play

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM

The Tremeloes! Another band we played support for when Brian Poole was with them and their single of Twist & Shout’ was No. 1 in the chart. A damn fine band and good guys - Alan Blakley lent me his Strat, it was the first one I ever played. At the time it was the biggest crowd I’d played to, about a thousand at a dance-hall gig.

This thread has dredged up some great memories, I’m sure there’s more to come...

https://youtu.be/IAUFQQeZuFk

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM

I never realised the influence that the Four Seasons had on the Tremeloes but once I knew it was obvious. There's a lot of it about! I suspect the popular acts at the time influenced the source singers ;-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:21 PM

That Hank Wangford Band link plays for me in VLC.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:02 PM

Jeri - careful.. I might go off on a jimdick* tirade about how 'punk'
is the beating primordial heart of all good folk traditions with rebel attitude..

[* a new word, if anyone wants it...]

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:54 PM

.. and we all know [yes we do...???] how significant an influence
the Searchers were on the Byrds,
and as a consequence, the entire future of western civilization folk rock...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

Yes, thanks Stilly. I've seen too much "what is folk", AND the usual combatants to want to deal with it.

I've heard Gaughan sing "Ruby Tuesday", and all the Tin Pan Alley and music hall hits-of-the-day, now done as folk to not think the horse thing is something people do when they don't want ANY new songs to get into the "tradition". That said, I don't think Apache will ever be traditional...not unless someone records it on an acoustic guitar. (Yeahbut guitars technically aren't traditional, but so what?)

The point is that, in between fights about everything that anyone could possibly disagree with, and actual folk music, an occasional thread about pop isn't a big deal. No punk, though - that would really be too much. ;)

Oddly, I'd heard Apache before, but the name didn't ring a bell. Had to go YouTube it.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:38 PM

DtG - I saw Joe Brown at a west country theater about 10 years ago.. Excellent show..

Also around the same time, the Searchers - top class nostalgia, and still then a good band..

Didn't get Lonnie Donnegan tickets, then sadly it was too late to ever see him at all...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

I met Bruce Welch (and Jet), at a Joe Meek tribute night. I wish I could have thought of something intelligent to say to him.. but I was dumbstruck. I should have asked about his songwriting, or production work for Cliff and Olivia Newton John, but nope. In the other end of the pub was Jet Harris, once the cool Shadow..with the quiff..(when I met him he'd lost that).

Ok the film the 'Young Ones' seems creaky and uncool now.. but one brief scene captures the pre-Beatles instrumental group sound and stage presentation. When they play the Savage, and do the Shadows walk, pointing their guitars in the air..creating screams and a wonderful climax.   Apache was part their creation in a way, as they turned a simple Jerry Lordan ukulele tune into a realised work. And it did influence other players all over the world during that period when instrumentals were making the charts. The Shadows themselves did go into other forms of music, and Hank has been working with Gypsy Jazz for a while. Respect due for their influence and place in UK music history, even if you don't get it! I'll shut up now..

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:07 PM

Punkfolkrocker - Just a thought for you to see an original in action. Joe Brown is still touring. Well, he will be when venues open again I suppose! He does a good show with many recollections of the 50s and 60s. Here are his tour dates.

https://www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/joe-brown

I know I keep mentioning him but I'm not on his payroll, honest! I just really enjoyed his show a couple of years back.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:18 PM

That worried me too, so I didn’t download it.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:10 PM

Take a look again at that link, Bonzo. It's something that wants to download instead of open. Can you find a different way to share it?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:29 PM

Here's Gary Taylor in The Hank Wangford Band!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:23 PM

Thanks Stilly: well moderated!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

Great stuff from a Yeller-Belly, Dave!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Thanks, Stilly.

Here's a rock and roller playing something that may meet with the approval of the traditionalists :-)

Sicilian tarantella

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 11:11 AM

I'm the one who HAS been weeding this thread, and I'm frankly disappointed and disgusted with the nonsense that Jim and Dick, in particular, have visited upon a music thread that doesn't meet their smell test.

Tough. If you don't know that blues is the roots of rock, then that's your problem. Go away and talk on other threads about topics that interest you. This is a music thread about a sixty year old song. I learned something from it and enjoyed all of the covers once I started down that YouTube rabbit hole.

I just deleted 26 (TODAY ONLY) bickering off topic posts. I've deleted similar numbers in the last couple of days. This may not be a purist lyrics/history thread, but it is a music thread, and it shouldn't need to be down in the BS area.

SRS

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM

I wouldn’t have recognised him, Bonz - Peter Frampton and Andy Brown are the onlybfaces I recall from The Herd. The only other person I know who played with Hank Wangford is Reg Meuross, although Reg is better known nowadays as a solo singer/songwriter.

Here’s one of Reg’s goodies...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:28 AM

And back to the topic of the thread...

Hank Marvin Gypsy-Jazzz - ‘Apache’

Who recognised Gary Taylor on second guitar - formerly of The Herd and later The Hank Wangford Band?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 07:17 AM

.....Freddie & The Dreamers.....
LITTLE KNOWN FACT
I bought a 200 watt Carlsboro Amp second hand in 1975 for the first barn dance band that I was in and I bought it from Freddie Garrity and, no, it wasn't a dream!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM

And back to the topic of the thread...

Hank Marvin Gypsy-Jazzz - ‘Apache’

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:46 AM

Jim - I am one of the few mudcatters who will still defend you..

But in this thread you are acting as out of order intrusively disruptive
as Dick was,
and now also this anonymous shit stirring Guest [any guesses who...???]...

Mods with Max's authority, are telling you this thread is OK at mudcat.

REPEAT

Mods with Max's authority, are telling you this thread is OK at mudcat.


.. got it...

Please leave it at that...

I along with other mudcatters who'd like to be left alone to enjoythis thread,
understand and feel BWMs increasing justifiable anger with you folks
who are trying to spoil this thread out of your own petty personal resentment..

Please show your mudcat mates proper consideration, and stop invading this thread with peevish negativity...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:22 AM

Anyway, I like everything except for most j*zz. It all started for me with Hildegard of Bingen... And the older I get the less inclined I am to categorise...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:19 AM

When Alan Merrill (writer of I Love Rock n' roll) popped off due to CV19; I put a tribute thread on, as others had done so with musicians and singers of all genres. It was also to highlight, how CV19 was affecting musicians. If it is a fixed rule for the community, that musicians, singers, and writers - are to only be put on here if they are of a certain profile, then I will hold to that. It frequently seems to stray into other areas of music, and often you get grey areas as to where some artists and writers belong, as they may have had varied careers playing and recording in different fields. Recordings may be fluid as to where they fit in genres (Does Country Music get banned?).

Anniversaries are generally no big deal in the scheme of things, just an arbitrary imposition.   A load of them will be coming along due to the 60's and 70's being a golden age of music. If Hank, Bruce, or Brian Bennett of the Shadows one day pop off..and other genres separate to strict folk are still allowed, I would hope that a respectful tribute thread would be posted giving their place in the history of music, without unnecessary disparaging comments from people whose taste is out of step with popular music.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:43 PM

Bit before my time, Bonzo, but good music from any era will survive. It was probably 67 before I started taking notice. In later times I discovered the timeless Buddy Holly and many others including The Four Seasons, the Everly brothers and Joe Brown! All eras, genres and cultures have their good and bad music. The good always lasts while the bad falls by the wayside.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:11 PM

A few 45s were candidates for playing over and over again - like Kon Tiki by the Shadows, Peter Gunn by Duane Eddy, Son of a Gun by Sandford Clark, Susie Darlin' by Robin Luke, Somethin' Else & My Way by Eddie Cochran, Good Golly Miss Molly by Screaming Lord Sutch & The Savages, many by Buddy Holly, The Train Kept a Rollin' by Johnny Burnette Rock N Roll Trio

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM

Well calling Apache a pop song doesn't do it for me at all. There must be thousands of sixties pop songs that are so forgettable that I've forgotten them all. But I can honestly say that if you say "Shads Apache" it triggers an immediate pleasurable earworm in me, and I can equally honestly say that it's been like that with me for about sixty years. Certain tracks are seminal, iconic, or whatever other tiredly pretentious words one could apply, and Apache is right up there. I'll make a list of some others some time. That'll cause a fight...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:03 PM

Amen to that, Jeri.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

The heading is "Unclassified/general music". People complaining about it not being folk music are on the wrong forum. And for the record, when it was started, Mudcat was about blues. One thread about a pop song isn't going to end the world. Might put a big bunch in someone's panties, but that's life.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:47 PM

As far as I recall, absolutely nobody on this thread has suggested that ‘Apache’ falls into the genre of ‘Folk-Music’. The only people mentioning folk-music and ‘Apache’ as though they are connected in some way are those who appear to object to ‘Apache’ being discussed at all. Very strange....

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

"Apache, Folk Music?"


we'll let you know 200 years from now...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:41 PM

Apache, Folk Music?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 12:31 PM

Talking about Hank's "sound", I've always thought that Hank must have been influenced by electric Hawaiian guitar players who were still plentiful in the UK in the 1950s.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM

I've just deleted a bunch of off-topic squabbling dovetailed into this thread to do with this subject:

Today, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".

Perhaps this will serve as a reset button.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:39 AM

I've said this a few times here, but my respect for what we call "pop" music soared after I'd cut 'n' spliced several hundred "pop songs" for our local dance teacher (anyone wanna hear my 3-minute version of American Pie? I promise you can't see the join...) :-) I had to do a lot of very close listening, and I realised that in many cases (not all, but 'twas ever thus...) the composition, arrangements, balance, recording quality and overall production values were often staggeringly good...There was a lot of genuine talent on show too.. I even got to like a good few, and I hadn't listened to any "pop" music since the Beatles broke up...

"Pop," to define a genre (or bunch of genres) of music can be used as a very handy pejorative. "Pop." Daft little word. Bottle of pop. Lollipop. Pop goes the weasel. You don't get that with "jazz", "folk" or "classical." And note that with those three they are not just one thing, just like "pop" isn't just one thing. You can nitpick about classical to say that it started with Bach's son and ended pre-Beethoven, but most people hearing you say that wouldn't know what you were talking about. Music is a huge mystery (said Vladimir Ashkenazy). We should celebrate it and enjoy the fact that its boundaries are irredeemably fuzzy-wuzzy. I don't even think I know what pop music is.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:13 AM

Joe Offer: Yer Tis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElRIjwFVkoA

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:03 AM

Just found a good version here by The Rockets

Enjoy

PFR - If no-one else was abbout Jim would fight with himself ;-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:57 AM

There are probably numerous dodgy cover versions and cash-in parodies of Apache
lost in time..

It's very plausible Joe heard one...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM

Scrolled on by.......!

As for grunty noises, Joe: the one I remember that had that in it was "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston (1959). I don't remember it on any of the Shadows' tracks or Telstar.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:20 AM

"explain why a pop musician has a place on a forum about folklore and folk music"

Jim - apart from any reasons of respect and tolerance for diversity,

a simple explanation is mudcat admin do not BAN foklies talking about other forms of music
which bring joy to their lives...

We could guess that over the last 60 years
more amateur musicians started off by playing this tune,
than any trad ballads or jigs...???

Many of these amateurs who now 60 years later are the life blood of folk clubs...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:09 AM

This is one single bloody thread in an entire forum
which is trying to celebrate a record of monumental importance in UK, even worldwide, music culture history.

YOU might not have cared much for it, but millions of other folk did and still do.

A vast number of folks who it helped inspire to become life long musicians in ALL genres of music,
cite this record and others by The Shadows as a significant inspiration..

Including many notable folk artists...


Well balanced, well informed and educated music enthusiasts can enjoy this record...

Liking this record does not cause a folk song, or a kitten, to die...

But unwelcome miserable killjoys can bore and antagonise other folk to death...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 07:29 AM

Just thinking. Although much loved by those of us of a certain age, Apache is a patchy tune at best (pun intended) - a simple chord led (almost arpeggiated) melody line in the key of A minor, with the f note sometimes sharpened. Does this make it the first chart hit in the Dorian mode? Moreover, was it also instrumental (sorry) in spawning a legacy of other more adventurous guitar tunes in A minor - Anji, Classical Gas, Judy, Windy and Warm, Tangerine Puppet, etc? It seems all guitar pickers at one time had Am tunes.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:19 AM

Backwoodsman - I'm not enough of an expert (or any amount of an expert) to say if that's a John Le Voi. In Australia, which is where Hank's based I believe, it's perhaps unlikely.
A comment on the YouTube video led me
here, so it's probably a Rob Aylward.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

Man Of Mystery... I heard that quite a few times earlier in the year as we watched a set of Edgar Wallace mysteries which use that as the theme together with a rotating bust of EW in a misty background. The theme started there with the melody played on flute before moving to guitar lead in later episodes.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:26 AM

Yet, being the operative word
That's what we said about the clubs
Maybe it's ok to talk fanzine from 2 meters away wearing masks !
Jim

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:21 AM

I'm not sure if this is the case with the recording you heard, Joe, but local DJs have been known to "enhance" records they air here in the states.

Jim, a glance at the thread titles in the Music section should indicate that this place hasn't turned into Tiger Beat,...............yet.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:12 AM

So, anyhow, does anybody know about the recording of"Apache" with the grunts? They're almost percussion. I never thought of it before today because I didn't know the name of the piece despite having heard it hundreds of times.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM

Wonder if that’s a JLV he’s playing, Mark?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:08 AM

Regarding "swing", I understand that Hank Marvin is an accomplished gipsy jazz player these days (
Here's an example. ), so at some point he must have acquired some :-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

Jim, it would have been a very enjoyable thread for many of us, were it not for the idiotic antics of someone with a reputation for rudeness, SHOUTING, a poor grasp of English,, and an unfeasibly high opinion of himself. If that clown hadn’t started his belligerent horse-shit, none of the squabbling would have happened.

This forum is big enough for discussion on other forms of music, and anyone who isn’t interested in the form being discussed in the thread is perfectly at liberty to scroll on by.

IMHO, of course.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM

I wonder if all those who have told be that dead folk singers no longer have a place in today's world, feel the same about long rejected pop musicians
I wouldn't have thought it had much relevance on a site dedicated to
Just a thought it had much relevance on a site supposedly dedicated to "Traditional Music Folklore Collecting and Folklore"
Great thing in life - you never stop learning
Jim

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:50 PM

Joe - the Shadows dance was popular then, and still enjoyable now..

Though not necessarily for the same reasons,
in our knowing sophisticated 21st Century post modernist
cool kitsch and exotica appreciating culture...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:12 PM

There were certain songs, usually instrumentals, that were used to close out AM radio shows in the US at the end of the disc jockey's shift. "Apache" was one one such song. Telstar was another. I swear that the version I heard in the US was punctuated with grunts that were supposed to sound like "Indian braves." Anybody know who did that tacky version?

I added a YouTube link to the first post, but I'll add it here, also. It's the Shadows, complete with go-go dancers. Interesting how the guitarists all half-dance, swaying in unison. Did we really like that stuff when we were young?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:31 PM

Trump's shining example of 'sense of fair play' conflict resolution,
when he declared murderous KKK militia and peace loving anti racists
as..

"Just as bad as each other..",

seems to have set a universal good precedent we all should thank him for...

Every one of us good guys must strive harder to be just as bad as the bad guys...??????


Sounds like that could have been the story outline for a 1960s rock opera...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:03 PM

Well I'm glad that my Freddie sidetrack struck a chord (which is more than the Dreamers struck...) I'm thinking of a Herman's Hermits diversion... My dad was the manager at Stretford Road Burtons branch and once measured Peter Noone for a suit...

But excuse me...

"You're all badly behaved in this thread, and if you'd taken a look, a bunch of the off-topic squabbling was removed, from several parties. Stop the bickering, the bunch of you, you should be embarrassed by your behavior."

Well I don't know who you think you're talking to, moderator, but I have been very well behaved all through this thread, and I'm not alone. How dare you make such a sweeping statement. I think you should retract and apologise, though, as I think I know which mod you are, you won't, as you never do, and you'll probably delete this. Yes I'm outraged. Cop yourself on, will you.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:39 PM

Been following this tangled thread, if not saying much, but now prompted to pull out my copy of "The Shadows' Greatest Hits" - a compilation of those recorded between 1960 and 1962, with Apache is the first track on side 1.
I was 14 then, and as I said in a post above, and others have said too, it was like nothing ever heard before. Plenty of time, if I really have to, to develop more sophisticated tastes in guitarists in my next 60 years. 10 years on, I would have been listening to the likes of John Renbourn, Bert Jansch, Davy Graham, Ralph McTell. But at age 14, I was most likely more concerned with which one of the Shads was the best-looking (OK, Tony Meehan) than what guitar they played or tech stuff they used. I just LIKED IT!
FWIW the track list in this LP is:
Side 1
1. Apache
2. Man of Mystery
3. The Stranger
4. F.B.I.
5. Midnight
6. The Frightened City
7. Kon-Tiki
Side 2
1. 36-24-36.    (I was once!)
2. The Savage
3. Peace Pipe
4. Wonderful Land
5. Stars Fell on Stockton.      (Place name chosen as they were in panto there!!)
6. Guitar Tango
7. The Boys
8. Dance On

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: JHW
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 04:50 PM

Aye it may have been a bit basic but I can still remember the melody. Can't do that with 'Murder Most Foul', which I heard last week.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM

Their brilliant guitarist Micky King apparently didn't want to go to Germany with the Rebel Rousers, so he joined James Royal and The Hawks who had a long residency at the Big Beat Club in Harrow around 1964 - same guitar bass & drums line up and supported all the guest bands. Micky had mastered the Mick Green style and performed many JK & the Pirates songs. The bass player held his bass almost level with his chin!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM

Some long time ago I read a statistic that on average more than 70 singles a week,
were released.
Most of 'em lost to oblivion until serious specialist nostalgia CD boxsets
were marketed to us music obsessives...

My memory of the exact number is a bit hazy now,
"70" will do for my immediate purpose,
unless a top mudcat musicology expert contradicts me;
but it accounts for how us 1970s teenagers were only aware of the tip of the colossal 1960s UK music iceberg...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:39 PM

Ha! We also played a couple of support gigs wIth Cliff Bennett and the Rebel Rousers! Now that was a band! And once again, nice blokes. Chas Hodges was with them at the time.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM

Yes Freddie and the Dreamers were great, my personal favourite was "If you gotta make a fool of somebody" which I first heard done by Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers at The Big Beat Club in Harrow!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 02:47 PM

I would welcome a Freddie and the Dreamers thread. I'm telling you now, I like it! As a Mancunian I do not appreciate them being lumped in with the Scousers though :-(

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 02:42 PM

When I first got into music aged 12 in 1971,
I somehow developed an equally keen enthusiasm for contemporary rock and folk,
and 1960s pop and rock...

But at that time, even though the 60s music was still not that old,
most of it had passed out of circulation, even been deleted..

Unless you had older siblings and their record collection,
which i didn't,
it was extremely difficult even knowing what 60s music had ever existed.

All we had were the biggest 3 or 4 1960s bands still stocked in local record shops,
or occasional greatest hits LPs slipping out at xmas...

So thank the music gods for Record Collector mag many years later,
and then the internet...

My personal biased old blokey opinion is that
very little music since the golden era of mid 50s to early 80s
is worth bothering with...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:32 PM

BWM & Bonz - personally, I'd happily prefer to read a full blog of your informal reminiscences
on this vitally important era in UK music culture heritage;
than much of what passes as 'interesting' music discussion at mudcat...

Keep going mates, defy the miseries who want to shut you down...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:30 PM

We played a few ‘dance’ gigs with The Casuals, who we got on very well with. We also auditioned for ‘Opportunity Knocks’ with them at a cinema in Gainsborough - they got on the show, we didn’t! I became somewhat friendly with Howard Newcombe and John Tebb for a short while but, after their success on ‘Op. Knocks’ they moved to Italy, and I never saw them again, although I used to hear about them from time to time via other local musicians.

They were a very good band, and a good bunch of lads.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:16 PM

I saw Johnny Gustafson in The Pirates during 1985 in London!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:11 PM

I used to go to Lincoln for about 7 days to do an audit of a hire purchase company. I remember going to see The Casuals with some of the girls from the client's office. It would have been around 1965.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:06 PM

”Much rather it be a Big Three thread - the most accomplished band to come out of Merseyside!!“

My band supported The Big Three at Lincoln Drill Hall in 1963 - a great band, fronted by ‘Griff’ Griffiths and Johnny Gustafson. Technically highly accomplished musicians, they were one of the most aggressive bands, performance-wise, I ever had the pleasure of playing alongside. It was only a few months later that Griff and Johnny left the band, I guess around the time of the bust-up with Epstein.

An excellent band which never really achieved its considerable potential, IMHO, although Griff and Johnny went on to work with other very successful musicians and bands.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM

I'm rather keen on the fuzz guitar riffs and solos
on Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich records...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:42 PM

That guitar solo on "Do the Freddy" was wicked, man.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:19 PM

"Would it be OK then if I started a Freddie And The Dreamers thread? :-)"

Much rather it be a Big Three thread - the most accomplished band to come out of Merseyside!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 12:00 PM

Seeing as my reasonable justified sarcastic posts have been deleted,
I'll guess dick went whining to a mod...?????

Dick - my Clapton comment was obviously a tongue in cheek 'in joke'
which would be clearly understood by anyone who
knew anything meaningful about the history of 'guitar hero worship'...

So before you declare victory and continue portraying yourself as a poor innocent victim
of cruel punk folk rock bullying...


All you are doing is further exposing yourself as a vain petty minded phony expert
on a subject you are obviously clueless about...

If I have time, I might rework my deleted posts regarding your persistent deliberate bad conduct in this thread,
to make them more acceptable to whichever mod
[probably reluctantly]
took pity on you...

---

You're all badly behaved in this thread, and if you'd taken a look, a bunch of the off-topic squabbling was removed, from several parties. Stop the bickering, the bunch of you, you should be embarrassed by your behavior.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM

Would it be OK then if I started a Freddie And The Dreamers thread? :-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:23 AM

Yep! I’d almost forgotten how much I loved them ‘back then’, and some great memories have been revived!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 08:46 AM

Fantastic!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 08:17 AM

Indeed, Bonz. Everyone else understood.
Thanks for starting the thread, BTW - it’s been ‘ShadowsFest’ in my house this weekend!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM

It's all a question of guitarists' banter which perhaps you wouldn't understand!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:45 AM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:07 PM

Bollocks to Clapton...

Marvin is god...!!!
that post was made, before i entered this discussion, punk folk rocker made a comparison.
his hypocrisy is staggering, yet no one has a go at him for making comparisons.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

Oddly enough, I used to have a 10" LP of Jorgen which I can't find this morning. Pity, it could be worth a few £s now!

Back to Apache, I believe there was an early pressing which had a mistake on the label, possibly when Columbia 45s changed from green to black.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:31 AM

guest rossey, fair enough
. Jörgen Ingmann recorded this 1961 version of "Apache" that became an international hit reaching the #2 spot on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100, which the Shadows did not, the Shadows had a uk hit,
regardless of popularity, two different versions show different musical approaches.it is not snobbish to prefer one version to another.
Bonzo prefers one version, i do not call him a snob because of that

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:29 AM

It's funny Pete. I would have had the same list of "just before my time" until a couple of years back. I was 7 in 1960 so didn't really get into music until the late 60s. But I saw Joe Brown live 2 or 3 years ago and found his music, or maybe his style, has changed with the times. He was very good and I would recommend him to anyone.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:11 AM

i could never understand the appeal of the shadows, certaiinly not cliff richard, bill haley or the joe brown types and crooners of the times. that's fine though - they were just a wee bit before my time. my own first enthusiasms were in the '70s = the who, ISB, then john martyn, sandy denny (and shaw!) and the west coast superstars of neil young, joni, leonard and van. this took me through to the damned, clash, specials and elvis etc etc....anyway the 70s stuff is what i listen to most these days - in strange and boring times it's good to have neil and joni rounf doe an evening. you'll always love the music that first affected you eh? we may be missing friends and family but mostly we just miss our youth

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 05:08 AM

My bad typing earlier.. man of hystery (sic). Should have been mystery. Whoops! Apache was just a tune originally played on a ukulele, not a tchaikovsky symphony. But it kick started many a cover and other groups of similar type. Marvin's sound reverberated down the decades. Of course there are many great R and B, Rock, jazz and folk guitarists before and after.. but it's got nothing much to do with the release of a million selling pop record 60 years ago. Occasionally well known guitar players will admit that they were influenced by watching the Shads. and their success through Apache etc, some having passed through instrumental or beat groups! Otherwise chalk and cheese! #folk snobs do you know one?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 04:48 AM

But to directly compare other styles and playing is nuts. quote
no.
i compared it to other popular guitarsts like jorgen ingmann, bert weedon with clips
i subsequently mentioned jim hendrix.
how is that nust?,i preferred jorgen ingmanns version, so did a lot of americans apparently
music is about interpretation and comparison of interpretation
reviewers, also have no trouble comparing different conductors interpreation of classical music
people had no trouble comparing cilla blacks version of walk on by
and dionne warwick version
what is the difference they are popular music.
or another example the rolling stones version of not fade away and buddy hollys not fade away, they are different takes of popular music, with different interpretations
i take dave sutherlands point about the shadows being of their time and dated

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

What a load of pretentious twaddle has arisen out of the commemoration of an innovative and influential instrumental of its period. God knows what sick crap will come out when Hank or Bruce dies. They'll be moving on to Mike Oldfield next. Get a grip. Though Jerry Lordan wrote it, the Shads came up with the intro etc. translating a simple idea into the product. Also of course their producer Norrie Paramour. Just one of many great hits they had, 'Man of Hystery' 'FBI' ;The Savage' etc. Paramour later sent them on the smooth route with orchestration.. Numerous changes of line up on the bass but later the likes of Rostill and Welch also worked as writer/producers with Olivia Newton John (they'll be slagging her off next) responsible for her country period. But one thing begets another. It's just become a series of snobbish, irrelevant comments. No matter what you think it is a record released 60 years ago.. and like Beatles releases, had a lasting effect on other musicians. But to directly compare other styles and playing is nuts.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:59 AM

what makes greatness in other music genres, in classical music we can turn to beethoven bach mozart , their music is not dated
i put up a clip recorderd in 1961 [only one year after the shadows]recorded it]
by jorgen ingmann, this is a jazz influenced guitarist, it is a little more imaginative and adventurous than the shadows, this version was also popular
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXLJsO_ulDanish jazz guitarist Jörgen Ingmann recorded this 1961 version of "Apache" that became an international hit reaching the #2 spot on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100, #9 on the R&B chart, and #1 in Canada. Ingmann used his own multi-track home recording studio laying down multiple layers of twang mutated through echo, reverb, speed controls, and his own accompaniment on bass and drums.
guest Roger, i too like a lot of different music, when it is played with passion imagination, i would love to hear apache played with more imagination passion and verve and even imporovisation.
Dave Sutherland you are right the Shadows represent commercial pop music are of their time and are dated, that is why in the early sixties. I sought out other music genres such as folkmusic and jazz which brings us on to davy graham
David Michael Gordon "Davey" Graham (originally spelled Davy Graham) (26 November 1940 – 15 December 2008) was a British guitarist and one of the most influential figures in the 1960s British folk revival. He inspired many famous practitioners of the fingerstyle acoustic guitar such as Bert Jansch, Wizz Jones, John Renbourn, Martin Carthy, John Martyn, Paul Simon and Jimmy Page, who based his solo "White Summer" on Graham's "She Moved Through the Fair". Graham is probably best known for his acoustic instrumental, "Anji" and for popularizing DADGAD tuning, later widely adopted by acoustic guitarists.Davy Graham came to the attention of guitarists through his appearance in a 1959 broadcast of the BBC TV arts series Monitor, produced by Ken Russell and titled Hound Dogs and Bach Addicts: The Guitar Craze, in which he played an acoustic instrumental version of "Cry Me a River". this was the same time that the Shadows were recording APACHE
During the 1960s, Graham released a string of albums of music from all around the world in all kinds of genres.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:47 AM

Of course the Shadows's music is dated, it's 60 years ago! But it wasn't dated at the time. I was 4 years old at the time and even then I recognised how different it was to other music. TBH, I still think it stands apart even now.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:24 AM

although in 1964 i had discovered through stefan grossman and john pearse , melody pickers like john hurt, and blues guitarists like robert johnson, for me those guys and their instrumentals andsoony tery and brownie mcghee were more inspiring than the shadows
but to me hank looked like an anorak and they were even then strait laced and safe.
and in retrospect and two years later in 1966 i saw jimi hendrix , the shadows in comparison were safe relatively unimaginative and straitlaced and unadventurous ,what young person today would choose the shadows instrumentals above jimi hendrix
,in my opinion their music is dated and relatively uninspiring.
i walked in to a folk club at that time and heard ralph mctell playing blind blake and wizz jones playing big bill broonzy guitar instrumentals. in my opinion more exciting than hank and his shadows and that unimaginative drummer god he was boring, buddy rich could show him a thing or two
Dave, you are right as i said earlier their music is dated.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 07:03 PM

Hank did fluff a couple of notes in the final take that made the single, and the current tribute bands like the excellent Rapiers reproduce them!! Incidentally the Rapiers do a very good Johnny Kidd & the Pirates set!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:57 PM

I love all forms of music, folk music, blues, jazz, classical, opera, you name it. It all has value to the person who listens to it, and yes, I liked the Shads and still do.
I kind of fell out with the folk scene some years ago, the reason? Too many people with their heads up their own arses.
If the cap fits, wear it.
There.
Said my piece.
Roger.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:48 PM

Bonz - cheers.. this thread prompted me to ask Alexa for Screaming Lord Sutch...

I don't think I ever took him seriously enough to be bothered
buying and listening to his LPs...

One of his tracks with Jimmy Page "Flashing Lights" is my new favourite for this weekend...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:33 PM

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 12:37 PM

Dick - a reasonable person would state their opinion in a reasonable manner..

A reasonable person would have some sensible self-awareness
and become embarrassed,
if they realised they were behaving as petty and anti sociably as you are here...

All you are doing is repetitively spamming the thread
with your egotistical bloated sense of self-importance..

Most of what you insist on repeating multiple times over.
is blindingly obvious to any of us
who have decades of understanding of popular music culture..

Yes, the Shadows were not trying to be the Jimi Hendrix Experience..

Who ever said they were..

We don't need telling processed cheese triangles are not the same as mature farmhouse Cheddar..

WE don't care, too many of us enjoyed both...!!!

You are not impressing us with your superior expert knowledge and taste,
Far from it, dick...

You are just coming across to the rest of us as a puffed up wind bag snob..

You obviously care so little for your personal public reputation,
or are too blinded by your own false sense of brilliance,
that you can't see what a immature nuisance you are being...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Andrew e

I’ll check my files to see if I still have a copy ...

Regards

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:58 AM

Jet Harris's drummer was a bit more Rocky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk8H1aKABvs

Guest Martyn Ryan. What was that Laudate Dominum piece you sang?
I'm a choir director, would like one of my choirs to sing it! Yes, we just got going again after months of lockdown, Qld, Australia.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roderick A. Warner
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:23 AM

I know that a lot of musicians credit the Shadows as a gateway which is fair enough. But I agree with Dick, tbh, for me they were pretty lame at the time, couldn’t have imagined buying one of their records when I was saving up for jazz records. The guitars I was listening to were in the mighty hands of Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Kenny Burrell et al. Took me a while to get into blues because jazz seemed so much more accomplished (until I saw the lineage more clearly). The Shadows always seemed on a par with other novelty records of the time. When I moved from piano to learning guitar it was similar to Dick, maybe, via people like Dave Evans, then Bert Jansch etc down at Cousins and beyond. For me, the Shadows existed on a level similar to the music hall extension that trad jazz was, except performed by younger, more wholesome lads. White bread indeed.
Point of this is it’s just my opinion, which for once agrees with Dick. What other people believe will be different - I’ve no interest in trying to tell others what to believe. I leave that to the retrodogmatics of all stripes. As for selling lots of records - so did Ken Dodd, bless him.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:19 AM

i am explining why do not like it, and then explaining my criticism. we do not all have to like the same thing.
Adults who are not puerile, understand this, and realise on a musical forum, aimed at folk afficianados , there is a likelihood that some popular music may not be to everyones taste.
if you want a a fanzine and hero worship thread start it and make it clear no criticism of the shadows is allowed.
music is about styles,IT IS ABOUT PASSION EXPRESSION
   comparing different clips illustrates different STYLES ways of playing,
if it means your boyhood heroes are diminished by someone who has a different OPINION tough, get over it.it is only an opinion,

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 09:12 AM

Nobody here seems to object to you having an opinion, Sandman, what's objectionable is your strenuous efforts to force it on every one else.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:05 AM

A few years ago, singing with our local choir, I found myself singing one part of a rather nice Latin hymn called “Laudate Dominum”. There wasn't much of a text beyond that phrase - but the melody seemed familiar ... Yep - it was the “Apache” riff, near as dammit!

Regards

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:01 AM

i never said that it was not ok to like anybody.
i gave my opinion. as jerry, said they are of their time. just like pepsodent toothpaste spaghetti in tins and procea sliced bread, and orange jubblies
do they stand the test of time ?, the drummer is unimaginative , the dance routine dated and timid,the guitar playing rstrained and repetitive, no improvisation,nopassion souless
can you imagine hank burning the star spangled banner while playing apache,[the apaches were a native usa tribe cleared off the lands by white settlers]
we have a title apache, yet the instrumental has no resemblance to native indian music
it sounds as if it is being played by white middle class strait laced acoountants from penge or south cheam, that is my opinion.
if you want a fanzine hero worship thread make it clear in the title, admirers of shadows only,
i am happy that you like them, we do not all have to like the same thing , but i have a right to say that i disagree and find their music dated, furthermore it is my opinion it does not stand the test of time   it is unadventurous and unimaginative

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:45 AM

Thank you Steve. That gives a new meaning to the word precision.
Must be a bugger to measure.
Roger.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:32 AM

And I forgot my schooldays-friend’s cousin, Paul Brett - a great player and composer, 12-string wizard, studio session-musician, and member of numerous successful bands including The Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Lonnie Donegan’s band, The Overlanders, and of course Paul Brett’s Sage.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM

Ah Billy Strings has incredible flying fingers, he has duetted with Molly Tuttle! Terry Gibson of the Downliners Sect was very fast too back in 1964 time. Also, Colin Green who played lead on Czardas by Nero & the Gladiators was amazingly fast!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:03 AM

Dick,to quote from your post at 1.28am today.
You must learn to tolerate different opinion,whatever you think of The Shadows and their version of Apache,others like it.
Your personal likes and dislikes are not superior to other peoples likes,just different whatever your ego tells you to the contrary.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

"I wonder if that geezer with the gob iron got his 'tache caught in it?"

Well, as a 'tache-sporting gob iron player, I can tell you that nothing makes you fly into an eye-wateringly painful rage more than getting a moustache hair caught in the gob iron cover plate. The only solution is to keep the lower edge of the 'tache trimmed to no less than 7.835mm above the start of the fleshy part of the top lip. This also serves to prevent bits of kipper from getting caught in the hairs. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

Excellent post, GUEST Jerry, 20 Jun 20 - 05:35 AM!
Well spoken.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

1. the shadows were boring players

2. the idea is to discuss music without insulting other people

Posted from the same keyboard without a hint of irony. I guess in some dictionaries boring is not an insult?

Maybe the Shadows were middle of the road but they were very popular. While I would agree that popular does not always equate to good, it does equate to likeable. If a lot of people like something and it gives them pleasure then why insult their preferences? There is a lot I do not like but I would not dream of saying it was boring. Just not to my taste.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:46 AM

"Its OK to like Hank and Hendrix"....well Neil Young did!
(All right not that Hank before some pedant decends)

Dave Sutherland

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:35 AM

Back to the item in question though, surely you have to view the recording and their performance of it in the context of the time. It looks a bit cheesy and strait laced to our eyes and ears now, but at the time it was almost revolutionary to see chart artists playing their own instruments, and actually to hear any bass and drums in the mix. Check out the rest of the charts at that time.

From what I can remember of that time, the Shadows certainly did not appeal to your parents brought up on a diet of solo crooners, backed by unseen dance bands, which was another reason that teenagers would have taken to them. It was many years before my parents saw any merit in the Beatles recordings, but to modern ears their early stuff now sounds too accessible (easy listening) to be considered cool, notwithstanding the recent fashion for retro cool and tribute bands.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:08 AM

“...well guess what Dick, it's ok to like both Hank and Hendrix.“

Absolutely true, pfr. I like Hank, Hendrix, and lots of others - James Burton, Scotty Moore, Molly Tuttle, Martin Simpson, Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton, Billy Strings, Chet, Jeff Beck...far, far too may to list them all. They all have their strengths and (comparative) weaknesses, but they all have ‘something’ that I enjoy

Other people like players who don’t ‘do it’ for me - that’s fine, it’s their right, and I allow them their preferences without comment. That’s what reasonable people do. There’s no reason to heap shit on something someone else finds enjoyable, and a self-professed ‘professional musician’ slagging off other, highly respected, professional musicians is just....unprofessional.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:55 AM

we can like them both or dislike them both or one of each-

what we don't need is the Sandman laying down the law about what we SHOULD like

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

Dick - you are talking a lot of petty irrelevant wank in this thread.

..it's so hilarious reading a blatant hypocrite like
you
whine on about tolerating other folk's opinions;
when you only come here to shit all over a thread
about a massively popular band you don't like..

We all see you acting like a bratty obnoxious teenager,
childishly bickering his favourite rock stars are awesome,
but everyone else's suck arse..

WE are enjoying a nostalgic reminder of inspiring pop music from half a century ago,
but you just seem to still cling onto an obsessive long entrenched grudge against Hank and the Shadows...!!!????

.. well guess what Dick, it's ok to like both Hank and Hendrix..

Normal positive open minded music fans can easily do that.....

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:13 AM

Yes, the switch to those Burns guitars definitely detracted from the sound and, quite frankly, they looked completely naff - none of the innate sexiness of the Strat, and definitely very little of that Strat tone.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM

One needs to appreciate "that sound" - Fender Strat - Meazzi Echo - Vox AC15 or AC30, a combination Hank used for just a short period of time, first few singles and first LP. I have no interest once they changed to Burns guitars.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

of course i am wrong the shadows were fantastic their dance routine was mesmerising,
tonys drumming was imaginative and really feisty and as good as buddy rich or gene krupa .
noboody could have bettered them not jimi hendrix, keith moon, sonny boy williamson,
the shadows are fab and hank marvins teeh and glasses are really sexy, almost as sexy as cliff pilchard

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 01:28 AM

he may have listened, as he said in the interview , but that recording of apache is dated straitlaced has no swing and the drumming particularly is unimaginative,and the dancing says it all it reflects the lack of passion in the music, its like pepsodent toothpaste
i would love to have heard jimihendrix make something of this
punk folk you must learn to tolerate different opinion, if you want this just to be afanzine worship, then bonzo has to retitle it fan worship of the shadows apache

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:36 PM

I wonder if that geezer with the gob iron got his 'tache caught in it?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Another hank interview...

https://recordcollectormag.com/articles/182413


"By the age of 14 his taste in music was being shaped by the radio.
“I listened to New Orleans jazz and swing music, and folk-blues like Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy, and Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee.
This was pre-rock’n’roll of course, but I was so excited by what was hardly a new form of music that I wanted to play,
either in a jazz band or a folk-blues band, or both if possible.”"

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:43 PM

2 days ago, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".

The rest, as they say, is history!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:32 PM

Has this thread been retitled "Dick, a celebration of me and my influential opinions.." yet...???

If not, can I just manage to sneak in a Hank Marvin interview from last year...

https://guitar.com/features/interviews/hank-marvin-gold/

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:23 PM

no guest.. quite wrong
i delberately chose a form of minority music because that was what i wanted to do , i knew it would not make as much money , that was a conscious, deliberate decision.
ido not begrudge other popular perforners who were quality their success, such as dusty springfield roy orbison ray davies the beatles[who were turned down at decca by one of the shadows. complete bollocks from anonymous coward guest 4.19pm
   comment from bonzo is expected, of course its not shadows style that is why it is interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI the shadows lacked swing imagination four respectable looking guys in suits playing safe music that mums and daddys would approve of, none of those nasty long haired beats who might smoke drugs

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:38 PM

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI listen to this guitar solo in 1968
if hank could have a bit of swing, he might come near this"

Sorry, awful guitar solo. Not Shadows style at all. Bill Haley was on the way out by then.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:19 PM

The Shadows played music people enjoyed and were in the hit parade for many weeks at a time. They were a success and also made money. The same cannot be said for many folkies. The criticism levelled at the Shadows smacks of sour grapes, emanating from those who boast a lesser career path.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:44 PM

iam not lecturing, i am giving a different opinion, hank had no swing

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:22 PM

Dick - why do you persist on lecturing us on a lot or things we mostly already know...???

It's really irritating and patronising of you...!!!

You are an annoying music snob,
and you not know more about music history than us.
As your ego deludes you into believing you do..


..and it may surprise you that some of us are actually sophisticated enough to enjoy all those you reel off at us..

.. and at the same time .. The Shadows.. and all sorts of cheesy fun pop records...

It's not as black or white, either / or, as you insist on seeing the world of music...

You create these pointless 'better than' conflicts inside your own head.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI listen to this guitar solo in 1968
if hank could have a bit of swing, he might come near this

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:11 PM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

Since when has how much something sells been an indication of quality, silly post from crumbly
lily the pink sold a lot so did glad all over it doesnt mean it was any good. what rubbish from bonzo as if there were only 2 guitarists joe and bert,
however if you want good rock and roll guitrists look no further than the two who worked for bill haley
lead guitarist Danny Cedrone and Franny Beecher, who had been a session musician for Haley since Danny Cedrone's death in the spring of 1954, they were not british but they were streets ahead of joe and bert so was the danish guitrist jorgen

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:58 PM

ok at the time it might have been an inspiration to some,
that in my opinion reflects the paucity of available instrumentals available for young guitarists
although in 1964 i had discovered through stefan grossman and john pearse , melody pickers like john hurt, and blues guitarists like robert johnson, for me those guys and their instrumentals andsoony tery and brownie mcghee were more inspiring than the shadows
but to me hank looked like an anorak and they were even then strait laced and safe.
and in retrospect and two years later in 1966 i saw jimi hendrix , the shadows in comparison were safe relatively unimaginative and straitlaced and unadventurous ,what young person today would choose the shadows instrumentals above jimi hendrix
,in my opinion their music is dated and relatively uninspiring.
i walked in to a folk club at that time and heard ralph mctell playing blind blake and wizz jones playing big bill broonzy guitar instrumentals. in my opinion more exciting than hank and his shadows and that unimaginative drummer god he was boring, buddy rich could show him a thing or two

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:35 PM

I would have been 14 when Apache came out, and I heard it on the top 40 station. Now, when I was that age, I hated most of what was on the top 40 station. Instrumentals were few, and the singers were variously whiny, hoarse, nasal or chesty. Accompaniments were simple.

(Of course there were exceptions. Adult stuff such as Frank Sinatra or Doris Day was played sometimes.)

To a lot of young fans, Apache was a new experience. Instrumental, in tune, with a good melody. And the musicians weren't old guys. No wonder the song inspired a lot of young players.

I was not impressed with Apache to the point of spending a whole dollar on the 45, but when I saw the title in the OP, I remembered exactly how it goes.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM

Ah yes, the brilliant guitar solo done by Joe Moretti - would have been even better if his guitar was properly in tune!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Bonz - I'm into Shane Fenton compilations..

I love the dodgy naff nature of vintage British attempts at rock n roll..

But we did produce rare moments of brilliance even better than the yanks..

Some Fenton tracks aren't that far behind the highest level of "Shaking All Over"...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:34 AM

Apache was at number 1 for 5 weeks, and Wonderful Land for 8 weeks, That must have shifted a lot of records in 1960-62 era. At the time The Shadows were the most popular instrumental group on the planet. Comparing Messrs Weedon and Ingmann with Hank Marvin is rather like comparing someone like Annie Briggs with Nancy Kerr!!!!!!!!

You could always knew who played the guitar solo on early British rock n roll records - if the guitar solo was dreadful, it was Bert Weedon and if it was good then it was someone like Joe Moretti!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

3000 likes sounds a lot beyond wildest dreams to many an old folkie...

Millions of sales for pop records don't count in folk world,
it's just a measure of how despairingly musically illiterate the masses are..

That's why the philistine proles need saving from their state of ignorance by evangelical acoustic folkies...

It's Dick's moral duty, and we should open our ears and thank him for saving us...

Hallelujah...!!!

[oops.. that's another big selling pop song...]

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM

no, not grumbly, that's you- how many copies did Apache sell- a few more than 3000!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:54 AM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly - PM
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:18 AM

didn't you know that black is white in the world of Dick Miles- remember that & you'll see why he's out of step with almost everybody.
over 3 thousand people like jorgens version
you are wrong grumbly

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:52 AM

My first amp was a 2nd hand 1960s AC30..
50 quid from a local music shop, about 1975 when I was 16..

Multiple inputs, our band could all plug in and gig local halls with it.
It lasted a few months before something blew up.

I'm very sad now, rathe than repair, I was persuaded to put it in part exchange
for deposit on a modern spage age sci fi looking solid state HH combo,
with green glowing control panel..

I was too young and inexperienced to know how to get good tone out of,
and maintain, the Vox;
and though the HH was bloody loud, it never sounded any good.
Just flat and sterile..

At that early stage our band mostly played Shadows, Eddie Cochran, and T.Rex covers,
at family and friends social functions..

In our youthful shambolic stupidity, it never occurred to us that our audience might not like any of these..
Fortunately they seemed to, or at least tolerated and indulged our enthusiasm and self taught rudimentary musicianship
Proud mums and dads...

The Shadows can be blamed/thanked for many thousands of local teen bands like us, even still long into the 1970s...

In many ways, we were still so very much like a typical provincial late 1950s/early 60s youth club band..

But Punk Rock was about to call us...

.. and we still continued playing a few Shads tunes.. though much faster and nastier...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:32 AM

Here ya go, Andrew...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

I remember watching that show!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:22 AM

Cliff Richard playing Apache!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:16 AM

I seem to recall they did. I never owned an AC30 myself, I used Selmers, then moved on to Carlsbro, then Marshall, then Peavey. I have a cheapo Fender ChampIon 40 now, but I only use it for driving the neighbours nuts at home.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:04 AM

I believe that the Fentones were different from the norm because they used Fender amps instead of the usual obligatory Vox AC30!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

Pfr - you know what my advice would be, don’t you? :-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

My band did the support for Shane Fenton and The Fentones at dance-hall gigs a couple of times back in the ‘60s. He was a nice guy, and they were a great band. Being from Mansfield, they very popular in the East Midlands area where I was living.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:18 AM

didn't you know that black is white in the world of Dick Miles- remember that & you'll see why he's out of step with almost everybody.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:13 AM

Another very good UK instrumental band from that time was The Fentones, never saw them, although they played a few times at a church hall in the Barnet area. They were of course Shane Fenton's backing group, and Shane Fenton reinvented himself as Alvin Stardust in 1970's. We chatted to him and his wife one Sunday lunchtime at Kenny Jones's polo club, he was a really nice guy and loved talking about the old days.

The other UK instrumental band I recommend from that time is The Hunters who I believe backed Cliff Richard a few times when the Shadows were not available. I love the sound of the DeArmond tone pedal on that track!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM

some of us are trying to discuss music, different clips illustrate different musical approaches. if i find any other musical clips that have a different take on the music i will put them up, regardless of your objections.
this is just ready for a 21st century hit.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:40 AM

Two down.. how many more cover versions on youtube to go...???

This is going to be a very long day...


Dick - we don't need you to educate us to make us see your superior light..

It's blindingly obvious one of the most popular instrumentals ever,
will have been covered in thousands of diverse stylistic variations;
by beginners, master musicians, and all levels in between, since 19 bleedin' 60...

Gawd knows how many better or worse versions just the Shadows have recorded with all their different line-ups...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUltGH6ZLOE intersting one with harmonica, but this one just shows how an imaginative drummer makes a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBC1J9dfnog

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

Dick - you've barged into this thread like a most hypocritical evangelist music snob..

..and have the gall to preach to us about tolerance, listening without prejudice, and not insulting others..

pull the other one..

Have you actually read your posts in this thread [ and the Dylan thread..]..

Millions of discerning music fans 'get' the Shadows - you don't.. so what...

We don't care...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

"I wonder if he was there when Decca turned down The Beatles?"

On 1 January 1962 (!), the Beatles were auditioned at Decca by Meehan, performing a selection of covers they had performed in various clubs over the years, interspersed with three Lennon–McCartney originals. Decca rejected the Beatles choosing the Tremeloes, who auditioned the same day as the Beatles. Meehan expressed condescending comments about the Beatles’ audition with the meeting not going very well. Wikipedia

Love Me Do released on Parlophone in October 1962

Diamonds by Jet Harris and Tony Meehan released on Decca January 1963. Produced by Tony Meehan. Jimmy Page played rhythm on an acoustic guitar. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:36 AM

the idea is to discuss music without insulting other people, who have different opinions.
Tony Meehans limitations, that is partly what makes the shadows dated, plus from a video perspective their pathetic dance Routine straitlaced,its almost like they are playing with a stiff upper lip, very restrained.

IMAGINE IF JIMI HENDRIX HAD RECORDED APACHE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

Saw the Shadows on the Liverpool Empire playing this the week it came out, often wondered what happened to the other feller - didn't think he was good enough to make it anywhare
"self-important provocateur, ie - a normal friendly positive sharing music enthusiast;"
"Some got it bad, and that ain't good", as the lady sang
There's a pill for that sort of thing
Jim

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:37 PM

Yes.. a less obnoxiously opinionated self-important provocateur,
ie - a normal friendly positive sharing music enthusiast;

might have said..

"Hey mates, if you enjoy this classic Shadows hit,
you'll hopefully like these other vintage versions by Weedon and Ingmann.
Which some folks think are just as good, and perhaps even better in some ways.
Have a listen if you want, see what you think.."..

But.. no......

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: cnd
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 10:07 PM

The Shadows and their style of music got me into instrumental music, which got me into surf rock, which eventually got me into bluegrass music and then folk. I always enjoyed Apache, though I admit I enjoy both Ingman's version and the one done by the Shadows.

(Should we even mention the version by the Sugarhill Gang or would that make things worse?!)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:40 PM

Peter Green loved the Shadows.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 PM

Loved The Shadows and HBM. Listening to them now in the car makes me wonder how they would have sounded with a more Rocky drummer. The Shadows with Keith Moon! For me the drumming really dates them, compared to music a few years later. There's a video on YouTube with Jet Harris and a band playing Apache, and the drumming does sound like an Native American Indian sound. I read that Tony Meehan, after he left The Shadows [and had a couple of hits with Jet Harris on Decca], became an A and R manager for Decca records. I wonder if he was there when Decca turned down The Beatles?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:10 PM

I only ever used a Watkins Copicat for a short time, until we saw Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages in which a scrawny 17 year old Ritchie Blackmore was not allowed to use echo, just raw Vox AC30 on 11!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:06 PM

Here's an even better article about Hank's echo units with many photos! .

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM

Thanks Bonz, that’s a very interesting article, and very informative.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

But I don't have to agree with them.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:30 PM

many people online disagree with you, bonzo. jorgens clip has over 3 thousand likes.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:23 PM

They are so awful as to be laughable then and laughable now!!!!!!!!!!!

A reference to Hank Marvin's use of a Meazzi echo is here

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

I cannot listen to either of the two versions of Apache by Jorgen Ingmann & Bert Weedon simply because they are so awful.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:50 PM

There was a very good programme on BBC 4 recently about the Shadows at 60. Well worth a watch if you haven’t already.

https://youtu.be/wdU5BsKdGCc

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

Dick - Give it a rest.. we know what you are doing.. your pattern of behaviour..

..seen it too many times here before..

Soon enough a mod will tell you to shut up..
that's what usually happens next...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM

dave sutherland , i do not care what nic jones liked, what an idiotic thing to say , i am supposed to like them because 60 years ago he liked them.
punk folk rocker, stop trolling.this is a music forum we are adults an should be able to tolerate differences of opinions. listen to all the clips, the last clip is in my opinion the most interesting

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:30 PM

I like Eddie Lang, the sides he did with Lonnie Johnson but even more so his recordings with Joe Venuti, but before I'd heard of either of them I was a fan of the Shadows and still am. It's not an either or situation.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:15 PM

His first idol was Ray Charles but, after acquiring his first guitar, he found new heroes."I loved the way Hank Marvin looked, the way he played, the way he walked around in circles while he was playing," he recalls.
Nic Jones interview Record Collector July 2019.
But he wouldn't know Jack Shit....would he?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:11 PM

I wish people wouldn't compare apples with oranges.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:58 PM

Dick - you've now done Dylan and the Shadows this week..

Have you got round to imposing your egotistical attention seeking musical bigotry
on the Vera Lynne appreciation thread yet...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

listen.. without prejudice, and make a musical judgement, this is a music forum, we should be able to listen to different versions , without you or anyone else making insulting comments, PFR take note.
such as
Dick - your presence in this thread is as laughably irrelevant as a flasher at a nudist camp..

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:47 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM

Dick...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:24 PM

look at all these comments agreeing with what i am saying that this clip is the most interesting, use you ears and stop hero worshipping for the sake of it.Mark Blitzer
Mark Blitzer
4 years ago
One of the best instrumentals of all time.
39
Francisco Zahradnik
Francisco Zahradnik
4 years ago
This was the theme they played over and over, between films when I was a kid, '55 years ago, in a small town...Peñaflor, Chile.
Curiosly, when you get old, you cheries your youth.
Sorry for my poor english.
49
firebase delta
firebase delta
2 years ago
best version ever -- link wray and the shadows were terrific but this is IT
28
Hanne jeppesen
Hanne jeppesen
1 year ago
Proud of my fellow Dane. I was 16 when this was a hit. I have lived in the US since I was 22, but never forgotten the music of my youth in Denmark
15
Jan Irhøj
Jan Irhøj
5 years ago
Jørgen Ingmann was the great, great danish guitarist, that early in the sixties promoted the electric guitars amazing possibilities (...in the right hands...) and inspired generations with his great tone and technics. RIP mr. guitarman!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM

this a more intersting version musically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXLJsO_ulw
yes. john, listen to all 3 have you ever considered you maybe wrong yourself , just listen with out prejudging.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:54 AM

Some people just won't even consider the fact that they may just possibly be wrong. As was said, everybody's out of step, except Dick

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM

here is mr weedon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovH62hdCZOY

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM

here is the clip they just repeat the same phrases no improvisation and their silly dance is really naff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvIYaYvVImc

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

Dick - your presence in this thread is as laughably irrelevant as a flasher at a nudist camp...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:16 AM

it aint about you pfr , so i am not allowed to have a different opinion to you, and it is not about grudges about popular culture , i have no problem with ray davies, the beatles, ian dury, eric clapton ,get lost you nitwit

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM

"Boring"? - "processed white bread"?
Well not in my book: I loved "Apache" and others of the Shadows' hits for the overall sound, which was something new in those days. It didn't matter if it wasn't as technically taxing as some other guitar tunes, and I couldn't anyway have hazarded a guess at how difficult or not it was to play - I just liked it!
It didn't inspire me to take up electric guitar, tho' I started on acoustic later, perhaps more inspired by the folk singers I'd heard. My main guitar tutor book was "American Folk Guitar" by Alan Lomax and Peggy Seeger: price 5 bob (25p)!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:42 AM

Bonz, pfr - I’ve always been under the impression that Hank Marvin originally used a Binson Echorec, which he later abandoned in favour of the Baby Binson. Could be wrong though - do either of you have a reference or a link to the info about him using the Meazzi?

My first echo was a Watkins Copycat tape unit. It was a bastard. The tape-loops stretched and made the guitar sound ‘wobbly’ in a not-very-nice way. I used to get through three or four tape-loops per gig - too expensive to use the proper pre-made Watkins loops, so I used to spend an evening now and then making my own loops from reel-to-reel recorder tape, jointing them with editing tape.

We eventually got a Meazzi PA, which had a built-in echo/reverb but, by that time, everyone had abandoned guitar-echo/reverb in favour of the ‘dry’ guitar sound of the Liverpool and Manchester bands.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

Dick - .. and here we go again..

..this thread ain't about you and your boring grudges against popular culture...!!!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM

nowhere is some imaginative guitar playing, molly tuttle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILG5szpf7ZM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:14 AM

the shadows playing is just rather unimaginative music, it is nothing to do with being grumpy, but more to do with being factual. i think the fact they inspired anyone is amusing , but if i was to accept your statement it does not mean that their music has any more worth,they were promoted and hyped and we were fed a diet of their music and were not able to discover better music until a later point. they were commercial, in culinary terms they were like spaghetti served in tins or white procea bread and of their time, just like the aforementioned food , unimaginative boring and bland
They remind me of stefan grossman a man who was technically good but lacked musical soul a mathematician posing as a musician
however grossman exposed guitarists to finer players like john hurt and robertjohnson, in my opinion he inspired more people to and exposed many europeans to brilliant guitarisrs such as missipi john hurt robert johnson.blind blake
the shadows were musicalprocessed white bread

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:48 AM

Crumbly - you just did.. thanks..

I think it's safe to presume a lot of us Shad's enthusiasts
are also into other pioneer electric guitar instrumental bands and solo artists...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM

"Maybe those who scoff at the Shadows, prefer the Bert Weedon"

The original recording was by British guitarist Bert Weedon in early 1960. It remained unreleased for several months. In mid-1960 the Shadows were on tour with Lordan as a supporting act. The band discovered "Apache" when Lordan played it on a ukulele. Lordan figured the tune would fit the Shadows; the band agreed. From Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:44 AM

Bonz - my two big addictions are fuzz boxes and echo/delay pedals...

I've never owned a real tape echo, I passed up on two affordable WEM copycats
because they needed too much refurb work.

I recently bought software Binson Disc Echo plugins for my laptop..

But don't know if any Meazzi digital emulations exist...???

Googling time...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM

I thought 'Apache' was a great effort, but surprised nobody has mentioned a pretty obvious influence- Duane Eddy- 'Forty miles of bad road' etc-
He was a regular in the OK pop charts in the late 50s

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:28 AM

BWM - even still in the prog rock dominated early 1970's,
me and my best mate at school,
taught ourselves guitar by copying Shad's tracks off LPs...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

The echo used on Apache was apparently a Meazzi Echomatic, which go for 1000s now !!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:06 AM

”Now let's cautiously guesstimate how many millions of discerning music enthusiasts,
a significant proportion of them being highly respected guitar virtuosos themselves,
would disagree with dick...?????“

Absolutely nail-head, pfr.

‘Apache’, and HBM’s guitar-sound are the sole reason I pestered my dad to buy me a guitar (a ‘Spanish’-style, no-name, which cost £3/17s/6d ‘on the knock’ at our local electrical shop and had a 12th-fret action of about 1/2”), and set me on the guitar-playing road that I’m still on sixty years later. My guitars are considerably higher quality now though!

Most of the guys I’ve played alongside over that time (and that’s a lot of players) were inspired in the same way.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:35 AM

"the shadows were boring players"

Now let's cautiously guesstimate how many millions of discerning music enthusiasts,
a significant proportion of them being highly respected guitar virtuosos themselves,
would disagree with dick...?????

Yes as usual, dick's grumpy opinions versus the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM

Maybe those who scoff at the Shadows, prefer the Bert Weedon, Play with Yourself in a Day method?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Dtm
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:45 AM

Apache was certainly instrumental (excuse the pun) in starting me off on a life-long love of playing the guitar so it's a big thank you from me to the Shads.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM

One thing begets another, the Shads./Marvin influenced many groups and players of different genres. Even the Beatles recorded an early tribute.. 'Cry for a Shadow'. So it may not be folk, but the Shads. effect influenced guitar players all over the place, especially in Britain. Apache was originally played by its composer Jerry Lordan on the Ukulele. TBH anniversaries don't mean a lot. But those who are still around from that time, will no doubt feel very old!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

I would agree that pioneers like Lang and Johnson have been hugely underestimated in the history of guitar playing, compared to the hero worship of more recent players. However, their music was probably less accessible and didn’t really inspire a whole generation of followers to pick up the instrument and have a go themselves. Let’s face it, Apache must be the world’s easiest guitar instrumental, with not many notes in it and some repeated almost endlessly.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:51 AM

eddie lang and lonnie johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q2YWl8GwQU - Midnight Call Blues

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:50 AM

the shadows were boring players if you want interesting guitar playing listen to this mor eimaginative and more musical

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 08:08 PM

Still have my Shadows LP! Saw Cliff when the band were still The Drifters: now that's showing my age!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:07 PM

Bollocks to Clapton...

Marvin is god...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:42 PM

The recording was done at the EMI Abbey Road Studio in London. Singer-guitarist Joe Brown had bought an Italian-built guitar echo chamber that he did not like and gave it to Hank Marvin, who developed a distinctive sound using it and the tremolo arm of his Fender Stratocaster.

Bruce Welch borrowed an acoustic Gibson J200 guitar from Cliff Richard, the heavy melodic bass was by Jet Harris, percussion was by Tony Meehan and Cliff Richard, who played a Chinese drum at the beginning and end to provide an atmosphere of stereotypically Native American music.

Record producer Norrie Paramor preferred the flip side, an instrumental of the army song "The Quartermaster's Stores", now called "The Quatermasster's Stores" after the TV series Quatermass. Paramor changed his mind after his daughter preferred "Apache". From Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:12 PM

Don't you worry Bonzo.
Them jam eaters in Workington thought guitars was shovels in 1960.
Mind, some of them still do!!
Roger.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM

so what? it's pish.

Subject: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:19 PM

Today, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".

The rest, as they say, is history.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoN6AKPGkBo