Apache recorded 60 years ago!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 09:40 PM

Peter Green loved the Shadows.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: cnd
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 10:07 PM

The Shadows and their style of music got me into instrumental music, which got me into surf rock, which eventually got me into bluegrass music and then folk. I always enjoyed Apache, though I admit I enjoy both Ingman's version and the one done by the Shadows.

(Should we even mention the version by the Sugarhill Gang or would that make things worse?!)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:37 PM

Yes.. a less obnoxiously opinionated self-important provocateur,
ie - a normal friendly positive sharing music enthusiast;

might have said..

"Hey mates, if you enjoy this classic Shadows hit,
you'll hopefully like these other vintage versions by Weedon and Ingmann.
Which some folks think are just as good, and perhaps even better in some ways.
Have a listen if you want, see what you think.."..

But.. no......

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM

Saw the Shadows on the Liverpool Empire playing this the week it came out, often wondered what happened to the other feller - didn't think he was good enough to make it anywhare
"self-important provocateur, ie - a normal friendly positive sharing music enthusiast;"
"Some got it bad, and that ain't good", as the lady sang
There's a pill for that sort of thing
Jim

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:36 AM

the idea is to discuss music without insulting other people, who have different opinions.
Tony Meehans limitations, that is partly what makes the shadows dated, plus from a video perspective their pathetic dance Routine straitlaced,its almost like they are playing with a stiff upper lip, very restrained.

IMAGINE IF JIMI HENDRIX HAD RECORDED APACHE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

"I wonder if he was there when Decca turned down The Beatles?"

On 1 January 1962 (!), the Beatles were auditioned at Decca by Meehan, performing a selection of covers they had performed in various clubs over the years, interspersed with three Lennon–McCartney originals. Decca rejected the Beatles choosing the Tremeloes, who auditioned the same day as the Beatles. Meehan expressed condescending comments about the Beatles’ audition with the meeting not going very well. Wikipedia

Love Me Do released on Parlophone in October 1962

Diamonds by Jet Harris and Tony Meehan released on Decca January 1963. Produced by Tony Meehan. Jimmy Page played rhythm on an acoustic guitar. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

Dick - you've barged into this thread like a most hypocritical evangelist music snob..

..and have the gall to preach to us about tolerance, listening without prejudice, and not insulting others..

pull the other one..

Have you actually read your posts in this thread [ and the Dylan thread..]..

Millions of discerning music fans 'get' the Shadows - you don't.. so what...

We don't care...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUltGH6ZLOE intersting one with harmonica, but this one just shows how an imaginative drummer makes a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBC1J9dfnog

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:40 AM

Two down.. how many more cover versions on youtube to go...???

This is going to be a very long day...


Dick - we don't need you to educate us to make us see your superior light..

It's blindingly obvious one of the most popular instrumentals ever,
will have been covered in thousands of diverse stylistic variations;
by beginners, master musicians, and all levels in between, since 19 bleedin' 60...

Gawd knows how many better or worse versions just the Shadows have recorded with all their different line-ups...!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM

some of us are trying to discuss music, different clips illustrate different musical approaches. if i find any other musical clips that have a different take on the music i will put them up, regardless of your objections.
this is just ready for a 21st century hit.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:13 AM

Another very good UK instrumental band from that time was The Fentones, never saw them, although they played a few times at a church hall in the Barnet area. They were of course Shane Fenton's backing group, and Shane Fenton reinvented himself as Alvin Stardust in 1970's. We chatted to him and his wife one Sunday lunchtime at Kenny Jones's polo club, he was a really nice guy and loved talking about the old days.

The other UK instrumental band I recommend from that time is The Hunters who I believe backed Cliff Richard a few times when the Shadows were not available. I love the sound of the DeArmond tone pedal on that track!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:18 AM

didn't you know that black is white in the world of Dick Miles- remember that & you'll see why he's out of step with almost everybody.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

My band did the support for Shane Fenton and The Fentones at dance-hall gigs a couple of times back in the ‘60s. He was a nice guy, and they were a great band. Being from Mansfield, they very popular in the East Midlands area where I was living.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM

Pfr - you know what my advice would be, don’t you? :-)

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:04 AM

I believe that the Fentones were different from the norm because they used Fender amps instead of the usual obligatory Vox AC30!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:16 AM

I seem to recall they did. I never owned an AC30 myself, I used Selmers, then moved on to Carlsbro, then Marshall, then Peavey. I have a cheapo Fender ChampIon 40 now, but I only use it for driving the neighbours nuts at home.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:22 AM

Cliff Richard playing Apache!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:32 AM

Here ya go, Andrew...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE

I remember watching that show!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:52 AM

My first amp was a 2nd hand 1960s AC30..
50 quid from a local music shop, about 1975 when I was 16..

Multiple inputs, our band could all plug in and gig local halls with it.
It lasted a few months before something blew up.

I'm very sad now, rathe than repair, I was persuaded to put it in part exchange
for deposit on a modern spage age sci fi looking solid state HH combo,
with green glowing control panel..

I was too young and inexperienced to know how to get good tone out of,
and maintain, the Vox;
and though the HH was bloody loud, it never sounded any good.
Just flat and sterile..

At that early stage our band mostly played Shadows, Eddie Cochran, and T.Rex covers,
at family and friends social functions..

In our youthful shambolic stupidity, it never occurred to us that our audience might not like any of these..
Fortunately they seemed to, or at least tolerated and indulged our enthusiasm and self taught rudimentary musicianship
Proud mums and dads...

The Shadows can be blamed/thanked for many thousands of local teen bands like us, even still long into the 1970s...

In many ways, we were still so very much like a typical provincial late 1950s/early 60s youth club band..

But Punk Rock was about to call us...

.. and we still continued playing a few Shads tunes.. though much faster and nastier...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 10:54 AM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly - PM
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:18 AM

didn't you know that black is white in the world of Dick Miles- remember that & you'll see why he's out of step with almost everybody.
over 3 thousand people like jorgens version
you are wrong grumbly

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,crumbly
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM

no, not grumbly, that's you- how many copies did Apache sell- a few more than 3000!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM

3000 likes sounds a lot beyond wildest dreams to many an old folkie...

Millions of sales for pop records don't count in folk world,
it's just a measure of how despairingly musically illiterate the masses are..

That's why the philistine proles need saving from their state of ignorance by evangelical acoustic folkies...

It's Dick's moral duty, and we should open our ears and thank him for saving us...

Hallelujah...!!!

[oops.. that's another big selling pop song...]

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:34 AM

Apache was at number 1 for 5 weeks, and Wonderful Land for 8 weeks, That must have shifted a lot of records in 1960-62 era. At the time The Shadows were the most popular instrumental group on the planet. Comparing Messrs Weedon and Ingmann with Hank Marvin is rather like comparing someone like Annie Briggs with Nancy Kerr!!!!!!!!

You could always knew who played the guitar solo on early British rock n roll records - if the guitar solo was dreadful, it was Bert Weedon and if it was good then it was someone like Joe Moretti!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Bonz - I'm into Shane Fenton compilations..

I love the dodgy naff nature of vintage British attempts at rock n roll..

But we did produce rare moments of brilliance even better than the yanks..

Some Fenton tracks aren't that far behind the highest level of "Shaking All Over"...

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM

Ah yes, the brilliant guitar solo done by Joe Moretti - would have been even better if his guitar was properly in tune!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:35 PM

I would have been 14 when Apache came out, and I heard it on the top 40 station. Now, when I was that age, I hated most of what was on the top 40 station. Instrumentals were few, and the singers were variously whiny, hoarse, nasal or chesty. Accompaniments were simple.

(Of course there were exceptions. Adult stuff such as Frank Sinatra or Doris Day was played sometimes.)

To a lot of young fans, Apache was a new experience. Instrumental, in tune, with a good melody. And the musicians weren't old guys. No wonder the song inspired a lot of young players.

I was not impressed with Apache to the point of spending a whole dollar on the 45, but when I saw the title in the OP, I remembered exactly how it goes.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:58 PM

ok at the time it might have been an inspiration to some,
that in my opinion reflects the paucity of available instrumentals available for young guitarists
although in 1964 i had discovered through stefan grossman and john pearse , melody pickers like john hurt, and blues guitarists like robert johnson, for me those guys and their instrumentals andsoony tery and brownie mcghee were more inspiring than the shadows
but to me hank looked like an anorak and they were even then strait laced and safe.
and in retrospect and two years later in 1966 i saw jimi hendrix , the shadows in comparison were safe relatively unimaginative and straitlaced and unadventurous ,what young person today would choose the shadows instrumentals above jimi hendrix
,in my opinion their music is dated and relatively uninspiring.
i walked in to a folk club at that time and heard ralph mctell playing blind blake and wizz jones playing big bill broonzy guitar instrumentals. in my opinion more exciting than hank and his shadows and that unimaginative drummer god he was boring, buddy rich could show him a thing or two

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

Since when has how much something sells been an indication of quality, silly post from crumbly
lily the pink sold a lot so did glad all over it doesnt mean it was any good. what rubbish from bonzo as if there were only 2 guitarists joe and bert,
however if you want good rock and roll guitrists look no further than the two who worked for bill haley
lead guitarist Danny Cedrone and Franny Beecher, who had been a session musician for Haley since Danny Cedrone's death in the spring of 1954, they were not british but they were streets ahead of joe and bert so was the danish guitrist jorgen

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:11 PM

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI listen to this guitar solo in 1968
if hank could have a bit of swing, he might come near this

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:22 PM

Dick - why do you persist on lecturing us on a lot or things we mostly already know...???

It's really irritating and patronising of you...!!!

You are an annoying music snob,
and you not know more about music history than us.
As your ego deludes you into believing you do..


..and it may surprise you that some of us are actually sophisticated enough to enjoy all those you reel off at us..

.. and at the same time .. The Shadows.. and all sorts of cheesy fun pop records...

It's not as black or white, either / or, as you insist on seeing the world of music...

You create these pointless 'better than' conflicts inside your own head.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:44 PM

iam not lecturing, i am giving a different opinion, hank had no swing

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:19 PM

The Shadows played music people enjoyed and were in the hit parade for many weeks at a time. They were a success and also made money. The same cannot be said for many folkies. The criticism levelled at the Shadows smacks of sour grapes, emanating from those who boast a lesser career path.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:38 PM

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI listen to this guitar solo in 1968
if hank could have a bit of swing, he might come near this"

Sorry, awful guitar solo. Not Shadows style at all. Bill Haley was on the way out by then.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:23 PM

no guest.. quite wrong
i delberately chose a form of minority music because that was what i wanted to do , i knew it would not make as much money , that was a conscious, deliberate decision.
ido not begrudge other popular perforners who were quality their success, such as dusty springfield roy orbison ray davies the beatles[who were turned down at decca by one of the shadows. complete bollocks from anonymous coward guest 4.19pm
   comment from bonzo is expected, of course its not shadows style that is why it is interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CXFXB4uknI the shadows lacked swing imagination four respectable looking guys in suits playing safe music that mums and daddys would approve of, none of those nasty long haired beats who might smoke drugs

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:32 PM

Has this thread been retitled "Dick, a celebration of me and my influential opinions.." yet...???

If not, can I just manage to sneak in a Hank Marvin interview from last year...

https://guitar.com/features/interviews/hank-marvin-gold/

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:43 PM

2 days ago, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".

The rest, as they say, is history!!!

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Another hank interview...

https://recordcollectormag.com/articles/182413


"By the age of 14 his taste in music was being shaped by the radio.
“I listened to New Orleans jazz and swing music, and folk-blues like Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy, and Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee.
This was pre-rock’n’roll of course, but I was so excited by what was hardly a new form of music that I wanted to play,
either in a jazz band or a folk-blues band, or both if possible.”"

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:36 PM

I wonder if that geezer with the gob iron got his 'tache caught in it?

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 01:28 AM

he may have listened, as he said in the interview , but that recording of apache is dated straitlaced has no swing and the drumming particularly is unimaginative,and the dancing says it all it reflects the lack of passion in the music, its like pepsodent toothpaste
i would love to have heard jimihendrix make something of this
punk folk you must learn to tolerate different opinion, if you want this just to be afanzine worship, then bonzo has to retitle it fan worship of the shadows apache

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

of course i am wrong the shadows were fantastic their dance routine was mesmerising,
tonys drumming was imaginative and really feisty and as good as buddy rich or gene krupa .
noboody could have bettered them not jimi hendrix, keith moon, sonny boy williamson,
the shadows are fab and hank marvins teeh and glasses are really sexy, almost as sexy as cliff pilchard

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM

One needs to appreciate "that sound" - Fender Strat - Meazzi Echo - Vox AC15 or AC30, a combination Hank used for just a short period of time, first few singles and first LP. I have no interest once they changed to Burns guitars.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:13 AM

Yes, the switch to those Burns guitars definitely detracted from the sound and, quite frankly, they looked completely naff - none of the innate sexiness of the Strat, and definitely very little of that Strat tone.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

Dick - you are talking a lot of petty irrelevant wank in this thread.

..it's so hilarious reading a blatant hypocrite like
you
whine on about tolerating other folk's opinions;
when you only come here to shit all over a thread
about a massively popular band you don't like..

We all see you acting like a bratty obnoxious teenager,
childishly bickering his favourite rock stars are awesome,
but everyone else's suck arse..

WE are enjoying a nostalgic reminder of inspiring pop music from half a century ago,
but you just seem to still cling onto an obsessive long entrenched grudge against Hank and the Shadows...!!!????

.. well guess what Dick, it's ok to like both Hank and Hendrix..

Normal positive open minded music fans can easily do that.....

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 04:55 AM

we can like them both or dislike them both or one of each-

what we don't need is the Sandman laying down the law about what we SHOULD like

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:08 AM

“...well guess what Dick, it's ok to like both Hank and Hendrix.“

Absolutely true, pfr. I like Hank, Hendrix, and lots of others - James Burton, Scotty Moore, Molly Tuttle, Martin Simpson, Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton, Billy Strings, Chet, Jeff Beck...far, far too may to list them all. They all have their strengths and (comparative) weaknesses, but they all have ‘something’ that I enjoy

Other people like players who don’t ‘do it’ for me - that’s fine, it’s their right, and I allow them their preferences without comment. That’s what reasonable people do. There’s no reason to heap shit on something someone else finds enjoyable, and a self-professed ‘professional musician’ slagging off other, highly respected, professional musicians is just....unprofessional.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:35 AM

Back to the item in question though, surely you have to view the recording and their performance of it in the context of the time. It looks a bit cheesy and strait laced to our eyes and ears now, but at the time it was almost revolutionary to see chart artists playing their own instruments, and actually to hear any bass and drums in the mix. Check out the rest of the charts at that time.

From what I can remember of that time, the Shadows certainly did not appeal to your parents brought up on a diet of solo crooners, backed by unseen dance bands, which was another reason that teenagers would have taken to them. It was many years before my parents saw any merit in the Beatles recordings, but to modern ears their early stuff now sounds too accessible (easy listening) to be considered cool, notwithstanding the recent fashion for retro cool and tribute bands.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:46 AM

"Its OK to like Hank and Hendrix"....well Neil Young did!
(All right not that Hank before some pedant decends)

Dave Sutherland

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

1. the shadows were boring players

2. the idea is to discuss music without insulting other people

Posted from the same keyboard without a hint of irony. I guess in some dictionaries boring is not an insult?

Maybe the Shadows were middle of the road but they were very popular. While I would agree that popular does not always equate to good, it does equate to likeable. If a lot of people like something and it gives them pleasure then why insult their preferences? There is a lot I do not like but I would not dream of saying it was boring. Just not to my taste.

Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

Excellent post, GUEST Jerry, 20 Jun 20 - 05:35 AM!
Well spoken.