LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?

Subject: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 11:05 AM

As a queer transgender folkie myself, I'm curious as to whether there are many (out) LGBT+ folk musicians that someone here could point me to (esp. those who sing about LGBT+ experiences)? I know of only very few myself, but I'd find a great deal of value in discovering more. I'm also interested in songs about LGBT+ themes/characters (I love traditional narrative folk songs like child ballads, primarily), if anyone has any they know!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 01:31 PM

Try Janis Ian.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:38 PM

Phranc.. may be folkie enough...???

Subject: ADD: Let the Rainbow Shine (Judy Small)
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 03:03 PM

An Australian singer songwriter Judy Small was well known in the '80's. She later became a judge of the Federal Circuit Court of Australia and is now retired.

I saw her perform live a few times. She was brilliant, funny, inspiring, and a force to be reckoned with (in my opinion) about the issues she was passionate about.

Judy Small - Let the Rainbow Shine

LET THE RAINBOW SHINE
(Judy Small)

Let the rainbow shine, let the rainbow shine
At the end of the storm, let it light up the sky
No more hiding in fear, no more secrets and lies
We open our hearts and the rainbow shines.
Red for the blood, red for the shame
Red for the fire at the faggots flame
Red for the anger, red for the pain
Orange for a new day dawning
Orange for t he bitterness of hatred we know
Orange for the warmth of the fireside glow
Orange for the passion of love running wild
Yellow for the golden moments let the rainbow shine
repeat
Yellow for the cowards who won't understand
Yellow for the roses I place in your hand
Yellow for the citrus taste of goodbye
Green for the peace of a free soul
Green for the springtime green for the young
Green for the songs waiting to be sung
Green for the garden fresh from the rain
Blue for the sky on a clear day
let the rainbow shine
Blue for the grief and blue for the tears
Blue for the chill of the winters fears
Blue for the moonlight in my lovers eyes
Purple for the lilac flowers
Purple for the lavender ribbons we wear
Purple for the richness of moments we share
Purple for the sky at the end of the day
red for the blush of new love
Let the rainbow shine
repeat

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Elmore
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:36 PM

There was Louisa Jo Killen, but she died. She sang the same songs, mostly traditional, as Louis (formerly of the late Clancy Brothers) Killen as far as I know.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Bainbo
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:44 PM

Some of Mary Gauthier’s songs, such as Drag Queens in Limousines, reflect her own experience.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: RTim
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:52 PM

Try The Vox Hunters...wonderful music and song....in Rhode Island and beyond!

https://thevoxhunters.com/

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 08:16 PM

I would've mentioned Mary Gauthier or the Indigo Girlscc. They're good, but they don't do traditional music.
I agree with Tim about the Vox Hunters. They're very informed, and enjoyable, and they love music.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:13 AM

I seem to recall that Ronnie Taheny (Aus/NZ) has written a few songs with LGBT content.

Try Gina Le Faux for traditional tunes.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:08 AM

Not really folk, idk if Fascinating Aida might have any relevant songs?
Adèle Anderson who writes a lot of the lyrics is transgender.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A8le_Anderson


Rackabello, what/who are the songs or people you've already come across?

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM

"formerly of the late Clancy Brothers"
Don't thinks so, he'd never have slipped under the wire with that Geordie accent
Great singer, at his best
Not sure a person's gender matters really
Jim

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:13 AM

Unless it becomes a problem - that is
Jim

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:28 AM

There were actually a couple lps released with the Clancy Brothers and Louis Killen. I knew Louisa, when she was still Louis, living and the US and it was mentioned.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

Hi Jim
I seem to remember Louisa did perform with the Clancy's in New York before she came back to the UK. Big mates with Mike Waterson, both now sadly departed. Both had quite a lot of influence on my singing.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 09:12 AM

Ashley McIsaac (Cape Breton fiddler)
Marit Falt and Rona Wilkie (Scandi/Scottish instrumental duo)
Ian Bruce (Scottish singer)

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Elmore
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM

Louis Killen made albums and did concerts with the Clancy Brothers minus Tommy Makem for 2-3 years starting in 1971.Sorry I even mentioned it in the first place.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 01:20 PM

Hey all, thanks for so many great suggestions!

In terms of who I'm familiar with, I came across Louisa Killen quite recently and really love her music. She had a beautiful voice. I also know of Peggy Seeger, Grace Petrie, O'Hooley and Tidow. I have come across others on the more singer-songwriter, pop, and indie side of things, but that's often not so much to my taste (I like more traditional music, or music with a bit of a distinctive character). Hence the thread.

Re. Jim on gender not mattering: it can matter to see people like yourself being accepted within a space, and it's good to connect with singers/musicians on that level too.

If anyone knows of any (traditional) folk songs with LGBT+ characters that would be particularly exciting for me! So far I can't think of one!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:25 PM

Dolly Parton came out to marry her woman partner not long ago.

You might want to look up the "femminielli" of Vesuvius - they predate categories like "LGBT" by millennia, so don't expect your Anglo-American labels to fit. They are the focus of a lot of festive music like "tammuriata" dances.

There is a video on YouTube of a guy singing the start of the Epic of Gilgamesh in the original Sumerian. That's the world's oldest gay love story.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

Dolly Parton came out to marry her woman partner not long ago.

A quick Google search suggests that she is still married to her husband of 53 years, Carl Dean. The only references that I could find to her being gay, were rumours which have been denied.

DC

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:47 PM

Doug's version of Parton's life story looks right. I wonder where the lesbian yarn came from?

I doubt Parton was mortally insulted by it.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:08 AM

Try Maddie Morris, the current BBC Young Folk Award holder. She sings both traditional and newly written songs that relate to her own experience, and has put a lot of thought into how LGBT+ people are represented in tradition and how she can engage with it.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:05 AM

You might want to try contacting the organiser of the “Queer Folk Session on Zoom” (see link below) that was announced on Facebook. It looks as though it was held on May 23rd and June 6th, I don’t know if there have been any more or if any more are planned. Link

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:16 AM

An important one I forgot about: Hamish Henderson was bisexual. This seems to have been helpful to his collecting, giving him an angle on male-only spaces like the army that nobody else exploited.

There must have been lesbian song collectors too.

I think Johnny Cunningham was bisexual too - met him a few times but he never talked about it.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 10:19 AM

Lesbian, folksinger and much more.

Maria Elena Walsh

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:25 PM

I don't know what genre Meg Christian would be categorised under, but she is a singer/songwriter whose sexuality is central to her music.

I bought one of her vinyl albums back in the '70's and loved it. Beautiful music, beautiful arrangements and beautiful songs.

I doubt whether you will find much in the traditional folk songs because it was never talked about openly, and never accepted in open society.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM

Now that I think about it, Shakespeare's sonnets are interesting. Not folk, not songs, but from the early 1600's. If you read all the sonnets from start to finish there is a sort of story unfolding and there is speculation that Shakespeare developed feelings for the young man to whom he addresses many of the sonnets.

One of my fave books.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:21 PM

So Campin is allowed to insult the memory of a great Scottish musician, and my complaint is deleted. I would appreciate an explanation, if that's not too much to politely request.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 05:35 PM

I didn't insult anybody. I am aware that some people (I know not who) didn't like having Hamish Henderson's sexuality made public; that was their problem. And if you think it's an insult now, get help.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Joe G
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 06:50 PM

I assume you already know O'Hooley & Tidow and Grace Petrie? Their songs are contemporary and by no means all involve reference to LGBT+ issues but several do and they come at issues from experience in the community

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jun 20 - 08:11 PM

What Jack said.

I have to wonder what century and types of people folks have to hang around with to think saying someone is/was LGBTQ is some sort of an insult. They're back in school playing "lets get the queers!" Your day is past. Hamish was bisexual. Big freakin' deal.

And this is a music thread. You want to pick fights, go to BS. Or just go. And additionally, Mudcat is not a place that protects sensitive souls from objectionable opinions. You can go, too, if that's what you want. "Hate" and "stupid" are completely different things.

I don't think there are a whole lot of overt traditional songs. I think a lot of the handsome-cabin-boy songs may have just disguised the trans-ness of said boy. Being a woman, I think it's more likely the protagonists just wanted to do the job, no matter what their orientation. I think looking for one's true love would get very old after the first couple of years. Of course, there's no proof any of those songs weren't simply fiction.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

Roy Bailey "came out" in later life. Did both trad and contemporary extremely well.

Mary Asquith had a large lesbian following but not don't know if she was herself.

Both very talented and sadly no longer with us.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Johnny J
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:37 AM

I agree with Kenny here.

Jack himself said "he never talked about it" . So either it was never true or Johnny didn't want people to know if it was.
In that case, why bring it up now?

Hamish is a different matter. He didn't worry in more recent years about people being aware of his sexuality although he would obviously felt differently in less enlightened times.

Basically, I'm a little uncomfortable about this thread. If someone who is in the public eye has openly come out as gay or is/has been comfortable with people being aware of the fact, then there's not the samr issue. However, we shouldn't be "outing" people who are either dead or alive.

Also, even those musicians who are gay don't necessarily want the whole world to know who their partners are and/or or their living arrangements. Same goes for the majority of heterosexual people too.
However, privacy is no longer respected in this day and age.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:35 AM

Johnny Cunningham was so laid back about almost everything that it would never have occurred to me that he'd have cared about who knew or guessed. Did he?

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM

GUESTkenny - I don't know that Jack Campin's mention of Hamish Henderson's bisexuality is 'a completely unsubstantiated allegation'. As I recall, it's mentioned in Timothy Neat's biography of Hamish Henderson.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:55 AM

" it's mentioned in Timothy Neat's biography of Hamish Henderson."
It is
Jim

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 09:56 AM

I'm not a troll, I just realised (it being pride month) that I'm not aware of enough LGBT+ songs or musicians and wanted to correct that! I'm not sure what I can do to convince of this fact. I have noticed that the previous threads about LGBT+ issues have been in less than good faith often. Perhaps that's why you have that interpretation.

I appreciate all the suggestions too, I particularly enjoyed 'Let The Rainbow Shine'. It's also a real shame I missed that Queer Folk session - I'll look out for more to be sure.

I did specify 'out' musicians, because I would not be happy outing people or having people be outed. But it certainly isn't an insult for someone to say you're bisexual or otherwise LGBT+.
It appears Hamish Henderson specifically was quite vocal about being bi, and about gay rights from a cursory google (obviously the internet can be wrong).

With the amount of social taboos present in folk songs, I am surprised at the lack of specifically LGBT+ themes. One can't help wondering if that's partly down to which ones get recorded/collected. I do enjoy modern (re)writes in the traditional style, but even there LGBT+ themes aren't easy to find. Perhaps that's something I'd have to contribute myself! I wish there were more younger folks like myself involved folk music.

Regardless of all of this, I very much appreciate all of the suggestions, and am happy to know about a whole bunch of people I didn't before!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 10:36 AM

With regards to akenaton saying:

"Gender swopping seems to be the antithesis of most folk music, which deals with the joy , hardships and the natural world. Mostly it concerns the past when selecting ones gender was rightly regarded as ridiculous."

I would have to strongly disagree. Folk concerns itself as much with human inventions and such as much as the natural world. Plus, trans people have always existed, and being trans certainly comes with its own joys and hardships. Plus there's a good deal of crossdressing in folk songs, as well as a many things you might find 'ridiculous'. Hardly far-fetched to think that a genre of music that can be relatively sympathetic about other very controversial things might have something to say about LGBT issues. But I suppose so much of LGBT history is lost due to bigotry and the need for secrecy that such could also be the case in folk. I'm surprised at the current lack of it in modern takes on trad folk, however.
It's certainly disappointing to see you call a group of people like myself 'ridiculous', and proves the need for explicit inclusion of trans (and LGB+) people and narratives in the folk scene. One could say not getting with the times and making an effort to understand and be compassionate to those unlike yourself is far more 'ridiculous'.

Regardless, I love trad folk/ballads. If I have to write the songs myself in order to sing them, then I suppose I'll learn how to write songs.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM

I think "gender swopping[sic]" used to be in a different form, because there was no surgical possibility, ans no hormone therapy. Used to be, it was only cross-dressing.

For the record, I knew the objection was to the possibility of Cunningham being bi. I just couldn't figure out why it would bother anyone. Let's keep the discussion about music, and not bunches in people's panties. It's not a BS fight thread.

Rackabello, write songs. I bet you used to do it when you were kid (most of us did, I believe), before someone told you it was only professionals that should be doing it.

One suggestion is, if you're on Facebook, to look for a Facebook group. There are groups for everything. I'll dangle a line on Facebook, and let you know if I come up with anything.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM

Let's see.....LGBT Genres(?):

             The Handsome cabinboy
               
             The Female Drummer

             The Beggar Wench of Hull

             Patrick Street

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:30 AM

The Dandy Man
From the singing of Walter Pardon.

When I was twenty years of age a-courting I did go,
All with a dandy barber’s clerk, he filled my heart with woe,
I never ceased to rue the day when I became his wife,
He can’t do right by day nor night, ‘tis true upon my life.

Young women all, take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you’ll ever rue the day.

And when he goes to bed at night like an elephant he lays,
He never takes his britches off, he sleeps in women’s stays,
His mouth is like a turnpike gate, his nose a yard and a half,
And if you saw his dandy legs I’m sure they’d make you laugh.

Young women all……………….            

It was upon last Christmas day, as true as I’m a sinner,
And as he stayed at home that day he swore he’d cook the dinner,
He took out all the plums and flour and mixed them in his hat,
And in the pot upon the lot, the rogue he boiled some fat.

Young women all………………..         

It was last Sunday morning, all by his own desire,
My leghorn bonnet and my cap he took to light the fire,
He took the tea things off the shelf to clean off all the dirt,
He washed them in the chamber pot and wiped them on his shirt.

Young women all…………………         

One day, when I was very ill he went to buy a fowl,
He bought a pair, I don’t know where, a magpie and an owl,
He put them in the pot to boil tied in a dirty cloth,
He boiled the lot, all feathers and guts and called it famous broth.

Young women all………………………            

As we were walking up the street, ‘twas arm in arm together,
It very first began to snow, he said, what rainy weather,
And if he saw a hackney coach he’d swear it was a gig,
He cannot tell, I do declare, a donkey from a pig.

Young women all……………………..

Now you may talk of dandy wives, but tell me if you can,
Where there’s a dandy woman who can match a dandy man,
He’s a dirty rogue and a lazy fool, and how I bless the day,
If they would send my dandy man straight off to Botany Bay.

Young women all take my advice and mark what I do say,
If ever you wed with a dandy man you’ll ever rue the day.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:35 AM

Jim - Great!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:04 AM

He was, wasn't he Lynn (Walter - not the husband)
Jim

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:23 AM

Perhaps I missed it being mentioned here but a song that seems to be relevant here is 'Be the Man' by Sean Cooney - sung regularly, well and with feeling by a gay friend of mine.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:38 AM

Strange that my post about Hamish Henderson's sexuality being discussed in Timothy Neat's biography of him was removed - I didn't think there was anything at all contentious in what I said. A bit of heavy-handed web-policing, it seems. Anyway, I'll reiterate that there's a bit of discussion on Henderson's sexuality in Mr Neat's book. Not that it should matter to anyone other than Hamish Henderson.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM

Amen to all that Guest RA
Hamish was quite 'in your face' about his 'change of heart' (as is Peggy Seeger, by the way)
Hamish made a biggish thing of it when he spoke at Ewan's 70th birthday symposium
Jim

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Joe G
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:00 AM

Guardian article on the issue

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:39 PM

Thanks - I've noted a few names.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

"Everything Possible" by Fred Small
"Love Makes a Family" sung by Two of a Kind

Saul

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:25 PM

Bogha-Frois - there's an interesting little video on YouTube where the various participants talk about how they see themselves and folk music.

Lynn

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 09:38 PM

Annie
Fred Small

Annie's up at seven on a work day
Brewing up a cup of peppermint tea
Gathering her papers and lesson plans
She grabs her keys
Teaching arithmetic and Africa
Geology and girls' basketball
All the kids in her class will tell you she's the best
But she's heard other teachers in the hall saying
Chorus:
"What are we going to do about Annie
Pretty girl like her shouldn't be alone
If she took our advice, dressed up real nice
She'd find a man to take her home"

Mondays come with questions of couples
Where and with whom did you go
Avoiding the personal pronoun
She hopes it doesn't show
Shopping with her lover in the city
Two women holding hands don't get a stare
If the kids at school knew, what would they do
Would they hate her, why should they care, tell me

Repeat chorus.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: oldhippie
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 09:39 PM

The above "guest" was me, had to reset my cookie.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:10 PM

You might find interesting ALIX DOBKIN's memoir MY RED BLOOD.

Thomas.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Rackabello
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 08:21 PM

Jeri, Thanks very much, let me know if you come up with anything not visible in searches! I don't use facebook too much, but perhaps I should make an effort - I came across this from Dublin Pride already, which is pretty fantastic!

I do appreciate the support. I did go and put pen to paper! I write fiction often, and some poetry, so it's not too distant a thing to me (and I did do song rewrites a bunch as a kid); I could see myself taking to it well. Watch this space hah

And thanks everyone for all the great links and suggestions! It's really heartening to have a bunch more songs to put in my repertoire, or at least my music library

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 08:41 PM

I got a couple of likes, but no answers. I thought maybe people would answer with suggestion on Facebook AND off. Nope.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 12:46 AM

Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 05:27 AM

And I just remembered this one...

Eric Schwartz - Hattie and Mattie

Saul

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 07:59 AM

Jacken Elswyth is a folk musician from London whom I think might identify as LGBTQ+.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 10:15 AM

I'll second Jacken Elswyth. And the Shovel Dance Collective are brilliant.

https://shoveldancecollective.bandcamp.com/album/offcuts-and-oddities

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,CupOfTea without cookies
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 03:37 PM

Wittiest song about transgender romance in the contemporary folk vein is Mark Graham's Rufus & Beverly True love prevails!

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Ronnie Gilbert of the Weavers who came out many years ago, and toured with Holly Near, one of the first out lesbians in the contemporary folk scene.

Jamie Anderson is a fine performer I met in the early days of Folk Alliance, in a workshop about how difficult to get women folkies booked, when she testified how even MORE difficult it was for a lesbian to get booked anywhere that wasn't a strictly gay event.

A tiny bit of googling will get you a list of "LGBTQ Folk Music Singers" on queerbio.com. Then there are the loads of folks who don't have a big name nationally, but fill out the folk scene nicely in their home places. Quite a few gay/trans people in folk dancing circles and as musicians for the same. So much so that there is a whole movement in dance calling to be as gender-neutral as possible. It's a very difficult thing for many people to cope with, more for positional orientation than sexual orientation.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 04:00 PM

johnny cunningham bi sexual, i dont think so. not from what i saw .
it is not a question of insults, it is a question of being factually correct, also johnny has been dead a number of years, so why the devil is it brought up , he was a great musician . he has left us his music.
.....if someoneis alive and wants to come out that is their decision ,. if they are dead let them rest in peace.
i have not read through all this just happened to notice, jack campin uncalled for remark

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 06:42 PM

'Portmanteau - a queer folksong EP' by Ric Gareiss

Ric's notes to this EP were quite thought-provoking.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 08:31 PM

Didn't spot this thread the first time 'round, but I adapted "Do You Love an Apple" to celebrate the results of the Irish referendum on gay marriage, 22 May 2015 (by 62% of voters on a turnout of 61%), after a friend of mine said "I wish we had a song we could sing to celebrate this!"

Do You Love an Orange*?
to the tune of Do You Love an Apple?
new words by Vikki Appleton Fielden, May 2015
(*Yes, that's a nod to "Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit", by Jeanette Winterson)

Do you love an orange, do you love a pear?
Do you think allowing gay marriage is fair?
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

We used to be Catholic, at mass every day
But now the hypocrisy gets in our way
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

When we were all children, we bought what they said
That only a man and a woman could wed
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

Now that we're older, we're sure God must feel
That any love's worthy as long as it's real
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

And why should we say any love deserves shame
When hate, greed and cruelty cause so much pain
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

Do you love an orange, do you love a pear?
Do you think allowing gay marriage is fair?
Oh, yes we know love, We'll not deny love
We'll vote for love wherever it grows

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 May 21 - 02:57 AM

Alix Dobkin seems to be very seriously ill. Updates are on CaringBridge, a site that doesn't work on my phone: I heard this from the New York lesbian klezmer musician Eve Sicular.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:37 PM

Just found this again and wanted to mention Marc Block – a fine musician in West Yorkshire. Check him out!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 12 May 21 - 07:05 AM

One thing I've noticed, about British and Irish folk music at least, is that folk singers tend not to be too worried about the gender in which they sing. So you'll frequently hear male folk singers sing emotionally in the voice of a woman, describing how tall and handsome their beau is and how much they worry about him when he's away at sea. You don't really hear this so much in other forms of music, none that I can think of offhand anyway. So I've always thought of folk singers as being somewhat "gender fluid," in spirit anyway. In other words, it's not so important to assert your masculinity on the folk scene. For all the "woke-ness" of the young-uns today, I wonder how many current male pop artists would feel comfortable singing from the point of view of a woman? Folk is way ahead of its time!

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 21 - 08:34 AM

Gender-swapping is common in Indonesian dance drama (see Colin McPhee's "A House in Bali"). And it was normal in Elizabethan English theatre. Panto does its own thing.

Shamans the world over were expected to be bisexual.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: John C. Bunnell
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:34 AM

Heather Alexander was very popular in both traditional folk music and the sf/fantasy "filk" community, with several albums to her credit, before transitioning some years ago, and has retained a following as Alexander James Adams. Base of operations is the Pacific Northwest US.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:53 AM

A couple more songs; "Rufus & Beverly" by the Rude Girls (in the DT), and "Emily & Katie" by Mary McGinnis, on her CD "Places InBetween".

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 21 - 10:12 AM

"If I were a woman, as I am a man, by bedfellow you would have been," admits the King to his prospective son-in-law 'Willie O' Winsbury' in the ballad of the same name.

This is the most overt declaration of same-sex desire I can think of in any traditional song.

Stewart Lee says as much, in the lengthy conversation he has about the song, which you can listen to here:
Stewart Lee talks at length about Willie O' Winsbury

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 21 - 10:18 AM

The post above, about Willie O' Winsbury was by me, by the way.

I'll also give another plug to Nic Gareiss' self-described 'queer folksong EP' called Portmanteau.
Portmanteau EP by Ric Gareiss

I think I'll quote Nic's notes because I found them very illuminating...

"There are two story songs on the EP that I chose to sing with male pronouns (Boney and Jimmy Wells). The rest of the songs also confront death, disorientation, and desire in ways that feel very queer to me.

A Dying Sailor to His Shipmates expresses heightened homonationalism at the end of the narrator's life after many years in homosocial conditions at sea.

Vernon (Wrestling Jacob) grapples with unseen forces of corporeal eros, reminding me of the process of discovering my own queerness.

Finally, In the Heat of the Day switches perspective halfway through in a way that feels both confusing and queer, ultimately leaving the subject unrequited, asking for more kisses she never gets."

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:06 PM

I Disagree Matt, about Willy ofWinsbiry imo all he is saying is is you are a fine looking man and if i was a womman i would be attracted to you.
however he is not a woman but the king and like most kings is trying to control everyone, but willy is not going to be controlled has none of this and rides off with the kings daughter willy is in control not the king.
the bit you refer to is about control not changes of sex or homosexualioty

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:20 PM

The king had been a prisoner
At a prison long in Spain
And Willie of the Winsbury
Has lain long with his daughter at home
"What ails you, what ails you, my daughter Janet
Why you look so pale and wan
Have you had any sore sickness
Or yet been sleeping with a man?"
"I have not had any sore sickness
Nor yet been sleeping with a man
It is for you, my father dear,
For biding so long in Spain"
"Cast off, cast off your berry-brown gown
You stand naked upon the stone
That I may know you by your shape
If you be a maiden or none"
And she's cast off her berry-brown gown
She stood naked upon the stone
Her apron was low and her haunches were round
Her face was pale and wan
"Was it with a lord or a duke or a knight
Or a man of birth and fame
Or was it with one of my serving men
That's lately come out of Spain?"
"No it wasn't with a lord nor a duke or a knight
Nor a man of birth and fame
But it was with Willie of Winsbury
I could bide no longer alone"
The king has called on his merry men all
By thirty and by three
Saying "Fetch me this Willie of Winsbury
For hanged he shall be"
But when he came the king before
He was clad all in the red silk
His hair was like the strands of gold
His skin was as white as the milk
"And it is no wonder, " said the king
"That my daughter's love you did win
For if I was a woman, as I am a man
My bedfellow you would have been"
"Now will you marry my daughter Janet
By the truth of your right hand?
Oh will you marry my daughter Janet
I'll make you lord of my land"
"Well yes, I'll marry your daughter Janet
By the truth of my right hand
Well yes I'll marry your daughter Janet
But I'll not be the lord of your land"
He's mounted her on a milk-white steed
Himself on a dapple grey
He has made her the lady of as much land
As she shall ride in a long summer's day

right from beginning the king is trying to control, he questions his daughter , then sends for willy to hang him, then when he sees how attractive he is he acknowledges that and says IF i was a woman, but he is not a woman so offers his daughters hand in marriage and lots of land willy will not be controlled and says i am going to marry your daughter stuff your land i have plenty of my own and roies away with daughter. your theory, matt, is out of charcter with rest of story

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:26 PM

They are great words, well worth sharing, though I know them very well having sung the song numerous times.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:42 PM

me too and that is how i interpret the song. i am pleased you like the

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 13 May 21 - 12:46 PM

I always took that lyric as the king acknowledging Willie’s beauty and get a bit hot under the collar himself.

I love that song. Always found the name Janet a little bit of a trip up, it brings to mind 1970’s Children’s TV presenters to me, not beautiful princesses from days of old.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 May 21 - 01:14 PM

Assuming a song means something it doesn't flat-out state is not good. I like having possibilities. There are nail-it-down types, and I don't understand that mind-set, but those folks exist.
So Willie o' Winsbury? Maybe, maybe not. I've heard straight guys say the same sort of thing. I think they were trying to signal open-mindedness and understanding. Again, an assumption.

I think there are very few nailed down LGBT-oriented songs.
But can anyone explain (yeah, Sam got a good gig, and they're all a little jealous. Unless they're being ironic, but I don't know.) how a bunch of men singing a wistful sea shanty about a departed man isn't homocentric? Sam's gone away (I looked for a version I liked, and I'm obviously irritated by a lot of things, so this one was one of the best. It's hard to ignore the weird owl calls ("WOO" in the chorus, but I'll just let it go.)

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 13 May 21 - 04:22 PM

unfortunately, Jack Campin's news about Alix Dobkin was correct. There is a new mudcat thread saying she has died https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169827

I heard an Alex Dobkin album many years ago and I particularly remember the songs "The Woman in Your Life is You" and "Because she's a woman [I didn't think I loved her]"

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 15 May 21 - 12:13 PM

I think the part about the king wanting to exert control is irrelevant here - the point is that blokes very rarely compliment the looks of a man, they remain silently impressed in fear of being suspected of being gay or making a pass at the other man in question. Can only imagine this was even more so in Willy O' Winsbury's time, so it's quite significant that the king expressed himself in the way he did (i.e. by offering the hypothetical "I would sleep with you if I were a woman"). He could have made the same point by saying "You're a fine looking chap, I'm not surprised my daughter likes you," but he didn't, he invited everyone to picture himself and Willy in bed together.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 May 21 - 12:41 PM

Latest on Alix Dobkin is that she is still alive but seriously ill after a stroke.

Somebody who can, look on CaringBridge?

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 21 - 04:08 PM

james phillips, if the king is not trying to exercise control tell me why he summons willy and threatens to hang him.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 15 May 21 - 05:04 PM

You can leave messages for Alix Dobkin at https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/alixdobkin
The prognosis for her longer-term recovery from the strokes is poor and is now only getting palliative care. Her family hopes to bring Alix home with hospice care for as much or as little time as she has left. When you think about the wording of your message, bear in mind that her family are reading messages out loud to Alex.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 May 21 - 06:09 PM

"If I were a woman, as I am a man,..." is indeed a striking line, but it is far from being an "overt declaration of same-sex desire". On the contrary, what is striking about it from the perspective of this century is that the king is confident enough of his heterosexuality and masculinity that he has no difficulty admiring the beauty of another man when the situation calls for that. An ordinary 20th-century American man would feel compromised if he expressed such an observation. There have always been exceptions, of course, and the taboo as a whole has weakened a good deal in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: LGBT+ Folk Songs and Musicians?
From: Felipa
Date: 20 May 21 - 07:57 AM

Alix Dobkin died at home n 19 May 2021 after a short illness (brain breed and stroke). You can sign up to leave condolences on her page at https://www.caringbridge.org/

You can also read quotations from it on the Mudcat thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169836&