BS: I am no longer a criminal!

Subject: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:07 PM

At least, at last, pot weed grass marijuana decriminalized in Virginia!

Those of you murricans in legalizing states, how was your transition?

Those of you not murricans, does anybody even care?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:24 PM

I don't care. I've never used it. And I'm sane. As you yanks love to say, go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:38 PM

Have you ever noticed that people who exclaim they're sane...

Stable genius comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:41 PM

Hi Mrrzy,

If it works for you, that's good.

I tried it a couple of times when I was first at Uni back in the early '70's but my family's financial circumstances were that if I didn't make it through my studies on the teacher's scholarship I would miss out on a degree altogether so the fluffy-headedness of it didn't suit me at all, either personally, academically or financially.

I have read articles which show that it can help medicinally in some circumstances.

Medicinal cannabis is legal in Australia

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:44 PM

LOL, Donuel. Literally LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:58 PM

My only crime, although never charged, was avoiding the draft and we all received a Presidential pardon by Jimmy Carter.

As for pot, the cartoons on the eyelids are amusing but not worth the co$t.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:59 PM

Hmm... I was thinking recreational use, not medical, but I didn't specify.

So original questions reposed with that caveat.

Other than being in hospital, or when traveling across international borders, I've smoked pot pretty much daily since March 11, 1977. About a year later tobacco started making me ill. Quit smoking tobacco August '78, after a summer of trying to find a brand of cigarettes that didn't make me barf.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:02 PM

My problem has been that I (prepare to laugh) can't inhale.

When it was legal to buy MJ products in 'laska I showed up at one of the new shops and bought some very expensive cookies.

The plastic cookie containers were childproofed to the extent that I had to read a small pamphlet on how to open mine and a recommendation not to eat more than a half cookie (cookie the size of a ginger snap).

The result. Absolutely nothin'.

So I still regard myself as a marijuana virgin.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:18 PM

I remember a news article in Oz many years ago about an employee who was charged with an offence because s/he mixed up the hash cookies and the plain cookies s/he baked at home and took the wrong ones into work for the tea room. Maybe she sampled the baked goods and got her brain a bit befuddled.

I also remember not long after I started working at my last work place, I got in the lift and all I could smell was dope smoke. I'm fairly sure that I know who the person was.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:48 PM

"Have you ever noticed that people who exclaim they're sane...

Stable genius comes to mind"

Thing is, Donuel, is that you're an idiot. Whether you're a sane idiot, an insane idiot or a druggie idiot is moot. Perhaps you'd be honest enough to apprise us...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:48 PM

Smoked LSD - absolutely nuthin. Injecting Lysol was a bigger deal.
Available at your local Beth Lab, Hydroxyshaolinexodrine will kick your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:59 PM

Back in the mid 70s at 2nd job I got in with the very heavy drinking/cigarette smoking clique, & tried to be like them, drink in one hand & cigarette in the other (cough, cough)
So the only time I tried dope I really didn't inhale (cos I didn't like inhaling tobacco) & decided after that one "drag" it was too slow, & I remember thinking that it wasn't doing anything for me & got back to the wine. After a couple of years I decided excessive wine was not a good idea either & moved away from my "friends." Water is delicious & one does not feel unwell the following morning.

A couple of years back in winter I visited a friend who was a very heavy dope smoker & realised getting off the train at my normal station (Sydney's drinking & entertainment area) where police dogs sniffed at people, was probably not a good idea as I reeked of smoke & not just from his combustion fire, so I didn't get the train & walked directly to my street & avoided patrols!!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:02 PM

Idiot, imbecile, and moron were, not so long ago, used in a psychological classification system, and each one was assigned to a fairly specific range of abilities.
Idiots.—Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles.—Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons.—Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years, 1912

Of these three words moron is the newest (early 20th century), and the only one which was coined specifically for the purpose of medical diagnosis. The word comes from the Greek moros, meaning "foolish, stupid," and shares this etymology with words such as sophomore ("a student in the second year at college or a 4-year secondary school") and morosoph ("a learned fool").

Imbecile began its life in English in the 16th century as an adjective, and meant "weak, feeble" (the word comes from the Latin imbecillus, "weak, weak-minded"). It wasn't until the early 19th century that the word began to be used as a noun.

Order Murat to attack and d

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:08 PM

Howdoya know what high is without knowing what normal is about?
Pot is a Twinkie compared to magic mushroom surf and turf.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:31 PM

As a critical and creative thinker with a breadth of knowledge, Donuel, I think you have just effectively countered the previous claim. Well done!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:40 PM

Mushrooms. That reminds me of a near miss.

Again, back in the '70's someone I knew decided to cook up a small pot of magic mushies which he had obtained. I looked in the pot and saw a small maggot crawling out of one of the mushies and had a double-yuk moment. I don't like eating normal mushrooms - except in beef stroganoff camouflaged by the creamy sauce - and I don't think maggots are likely to be tasty.

The poor little man got his knickers in a twist when I refused to partake, and tried to convince me he had procured them just for me, but my distaste for mushrooms as well as for trying psychedelic concoctions, plus that heroic little maggot popping up and waving at me, meant he lost the whole trifecta. Funny!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:43 PM

He's taken drugs. Any "creativity" he's ever shown could be a result of that. Frankly, I prefer a clear head. I await any evidence that he has ever demonstrated that. I suppose there's always hope.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 09:14 PM

Massachusetts has legal cannabis now, I forget the restrictions
but it is carefully regulated here.
As opposed to being entirely illegal.

The state I hear the fuss about,
is the state of Colorado.
Are things really that bad in Colorado,
or is that anti-cannabis propaganda?

I am no smoker and have never tried smoking this stuff.
There are honest-to-God medical doctors who
recommend medicinal cannabis to some suffering patients,
I have heard of it happening here in Massachusetts,
and if it's carefully done, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 10:22 PM

There is a grain of truth in that personally and for society Steve.
While man made drugs or vaccines have saved many lives, life on Earth like the trees, grass grain, mushrooms and flowers have symbiotically evolved over millions of years or more. How we use them is key.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:37 AM

Taking cannabinoid
Turned me from a square
To a trapezoid
And the 'thorities
Were very annoyed.
But me I'm still no
paranoid on non sanity
vergin'
(Because I'm still a marijuana
-sturgeon-)

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:04 AM

Have you ever noticed that people who exclaim they're sane...

Well, when I look in a mirror there are no tell tale signs. But do I see someone definitely on the sane side of pot luck!

There is a researched artifact that shows there is a tendency to aggression peaking 7 days after imbibing. Everybodys' different but I have had it proved to me when on colleague was questioning in a confused way 8 days later. And a friend who had to go out and buy some more for hubby who was too aggressive to handle (and that gave her 2 episodes). There was a radio presenter colleague who was quite paranoiac at odd times (another potential symptom), she smoked skunk. Another friend/colleague claimed no effect, I never saw him vary. But the warning is there, you don't know your genes. We, the sane, inevitably find out!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM

I haven't tried smoking pot mostly because I don't like the smell. Skunk roadkill is a common smell in Oregon- believe me, you don't want to get it on your tires.

But one night here in Juneau I went to dinner with two guys at the home of one of them and his guest promised he had brought something for me.

After a delicious dinner he brought me a dessert cookie and I ate it. We sat around chatting and I felt nothing and eventually my host took me home.

I was on the computer when I suddenly realized that I was high. It took me aback- I was alone and there was no fun involved. So I went to bed and to sleep. And that is the only time I have had pot.

I like wine.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jos
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 04:46 AM

When youngsters smoke pot in the garage block near my house the smoke invades my house. I don't want the second-hand smoke and the smell is unpleasant, so I go out and ask them to do it somewhere else. They apologise meekly and go away. If it is made legal they may not be so obliging.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:48 AM

My perspective is shaped by the fact that pot only made my migrain pain worse.
If it is a delight to migraine free folks it should at least have no criminal punishment. It also has some synthete qualities in its effects which is interesting

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 08:32 AM

What a Nixonian thread title.
Here in Florida marijuana is illegal without a prescription, you can do you up to 5 years in prison for possession of more than 20 grams. However, you can use it and buy it here from state-sanctioned dispensaries if you have a medical card for it and pretty much anybody can get a card. The product available includes high THC content in an ever-increasing number of strains so we're talking some kickass bud with a variety of effects according to what you're looking for.
I imagine that decriminalization means you can transition to not having the specter of prison looming over you when you toke up on illicit weed.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:52 AM

My goodness, the prisoners I visited had all been on drugs. Many still were while in prison (the prisons here are awash with drugs)
Those on cannabis (ordinary, skunk and other stronger forms) were demotivated, their mental health in shreds and actually in a sense addicted.
I wouldn't recommend cannabis to anyone. It messes up ones head permanently in many cases. Very very dodgy...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:59 AM

I've never taken an illicit drug in my life, but when it comes to cannabis I've never seen why you can't grow a natural plant in your garden and smoke it or do whatever you do with it. I'd definitely draw the line at selling it or otherwise trading it with anyone else, and I don't think we should ever be legalising stuff that has to be processed or purified. I'll stick to drinking wine, beer and single malts if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:13 AM

Cannabis has been legal in Canada for a while now, but the change has made zero personal difference to me or to Himself, my better half.

Himself's professional life is another matter. Y'see, he's a criminal lawyer.

As a long-time asthmatic, I prefer not to inhale anything more complicated than country air, which is quite complicated enough, thank you. Himself is one of those people who tried it in youth and perceived no effect, so did not bother further. I spent the most risk-prone years of my youth in the armed forces, so not bothering with or deliberately avoiding a substance that could land me in front of a court-martial was basic common sense. Himself served 30 years as a legal officer, so that went doubled and in spades for him.

Now that we're well over sixty, our preferred mind-altering substance is alcohol, in the form of riesling or perhaps a nice pinot noir, or maybe the local brewery's IPA. Whatever goes best with supper.

Decriminalization of cannabis in Canada has not been simple; in fact, where once we had a few criminal charges (possession, trafficking, cultivation), we now have more than forty. (Criminal law in Canada is federal, BTW.) Federal, provincial and municipal governments alike are striving to control, tax and generally discourage the use of a substance that is now legal to possess (in certain quantities) and use, and easy to produce at home for personal consumption. So that part is not going well.

Veterans' groups concerned with the welfare of PTSD sufferers report that those who use cannabis to control their disease, especially to promote sleep, have trouble securing their preferred form of the herb from official vendors, who are typically out of stock. People who live in the country or in small towns have to travel considerable distances to visit a pot shop because the provincial regulations require a substantial population density to ... ah ... cushion the blow that a pot shop might deliver to a community. (I hope you catch the whiff of hypocrisy here.)

Meanwhile, in real life, the unofficial cannabis market is thriving. Since possession of small quantities for personal use is not an offence, how does the cop arresting you tell that you bought your little stash from your country cousin and not from the provincially licensed pot shop? Short answer, she can't. So the domestic unofficial growers are producing more than they ever did, and selling briskly to their massive customer base, while agribusiness is tip-toeing into the officially sanctioned part of the trade.

How do I know this? Well, I have some country cousins who have been in the pot business since the 1970s, and one of them has been to prison twice on cultivation and trafficking charges. When we visit them, we say nothing about their casual consumption of the herb, and they politely offer and take no offence when we politely decline to partake ourselves. In fact, it works out much like the adaptation of teetotalers to friends and relatives who take a drop, on the principle that it's your life and no skin off my nose as long as you're sober when you operate heavy machinery in my presence.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:37 AM

My first night in Anchorage many years ago I was sitting in a circle of artists as they passed a joint around. At that point in Alaska history it was legal. When the dutchie was passed to me I realized this was an opportunity to celebrate the end of a very long run up the Alcan in my old Toyota, raised it to my lips then realized that I had never inhaled smoke. My lungs clamped as if I was under water and to avoid conspicuous embarassment I sadly passed the unit on. Another example of an incomplete education. At the time growing MJ as a houseplant and doing what you wanted with it in the state was totally one's own business. I had a housemate who had such plants but I think they were mostly ornamental. The leaves are quite striking, kind of like having a poinsettia with an even sunnier personality. Replicants took over the politics of my State and our laws changed to look like everyone else's in the lower 49 until later in the following millenium (2014).
When the referendum won to make pot products of all sorts legal, one of our local news television broadcasters announced she was going to depart the newsdesk and start her own company.
The municipality took months to lay down a complicated series of rules and regs for anyone establishing their own company. Still there are probably a dozen such companies around at present. I'm guessing they've done well with the coming of covid and wondering if mj would augment a rhubarb crisp.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:33 PM

A number of legally available items can be abused to a person's detriment. Food, alcohol and tobacco spring to mind. It's up to the individual to use them responsibly, or not. I abstained from pot and other illicit drugs for about 45 years, save for a drag on a joint at 2 or 3 social gatherings in all that time. Last December I got a MM card for arthritis and cannabis has proven to be a gawdsend for me. Celebrex and Aleve did absolutely nothing to alleviate my pain but the right amount of the right strain of cannabis has made it bearable and allowed me to get out and hike, play tennis (that's on hold until I get a new hip), play music, etc. whereas otherwise I might have just sat at home. Uplifted spirits and increased energy are just the cherry on the sundae. It's criminal that the blue hairs have kept this drug out of the hands of so many people who could have benefited from it's use.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 04:54 PM

In Oz, different states have different rules but mostly MJ is still illegal except for medical uses. I'm not sure because I don't use it, but I think that a person having a limited amount is ok as long as s/he doesn't sell it. This allows the police to get on with more important issues.

However, having THC in your system while driving is illegal and because it stays in your system for a day or more, some drivers are getting caught out without realising they were at risk.

I watch the Oz TV show called RBT sometimes. RBT = random breath testing, but they also do drug tests these days. One funny situation on the show was a carful of people coming back from a Nimbin MardiGrass festival and the driver was done for having THC in his system. The police officers were discussing whether it was secondhand smoke from the passengers but the driver had partaken of the weed the day before and it was still in his system.

Note: Nimbin is hippie-central in NSW. The Nimbin Aquarius Festival was a counter-cultural arts and music festival in 1973. I was in first year at Uni and travelled up the coast with a few fellow students. It was a fun festival, but our group were not into drugs. After the festival a lot of counter-culture people moved to the area and set up communal farms etc. Although MJ is not legal in NSW it would be hard to police it so the illegal consequences of using it is policed.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 05:15 PM

I think in Mass and DC it is legal to buy but not to sell. Love that little weirdness.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:30 PM

Celebrex has been implicated in significantly increasing the risk of heart attacks. For my sins I've been suffering with my back for at least fifteen years. During most of that time I've been taking diclofenac sodium (aka Voltarol this end), along with a low dose of a proton pump inhibitor to stop the diclofenac from attacking my gut. Magic. Celebrex did nothing at all for me, as did Naproxen, and I can't tolerate ibuprofen at all. Keep pestering your doc until you find your nirvana. Thing is, it's all free this end....

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:12 PM

I have a major sensory nerve that was cut and has tried to grow back but ends in clump of nerve tissue, so it sends phantom pain I can control with Lidocaine a half hour at a time. I've thought that botox in the nerve ending might be a longer lasting solution. (once a month)
Of course all the things that really work are addictive and not for me.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 03:54 AM

the smoke invades my house.

Second hand smoke is all the more annoying knowing it is psychoactive. I get irritated by the wisps of vape in the air, the strawberry may be acceptable to the vaper but it is not the kind of strawberry that I want to smell. It isn't strawberry and you can tell. There is precious little research into the vape additives and if they are benign.

Nicotine is immuno-suppressive, that much is known, regardless of how it enters the body. Throw in a pandemic and retire to a safe distance!

FWIW CBD is regarded as psychoactive because it is considered to have a calming influence. As opposed to the high of the THC (that is not present). It is anti-inflammatory.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:35 AM

Vile stuff. It always made me hypochondriacally anxious, and getting glandular fever (infectious mononucleosis, Epstein-Barr virus) made that vastly worse and caused burning pain in lymph nodes all over my body. That was 40 years ago and it would take something like terminal cancer with no other medical options to persuade me to take it again.

On the other hand, I took LSD when it was still legal. Please bring THAT back.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 05:28 AM

AFAIK ergot is not illegal. All you need is rye seeds and patience.
Though I wouldn't recommend it, not just because the dosage is not controlled, but also because from what I have read and watched.

ergot is the nearest natural mind altering substance to LSD.

The UK law is weird in that fresh magic mushrooms are not illegal but once dried they are (ie processed). Again from what I have seen of people who have eaten, not recommended.

Personally, alcohol (4.5% ABV) is the only & most potent mind alterer for my tastes, and then sufficient to re-hydrate while dancing.

FWIW codeine is an opiate and addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM

My husband uses Voltarol sometimes for muscle-strain (his job is very strenuous) But he WILL call it 'Voldemort'. He'll go into a pharmacy and ask for "A tube of Voldemort please Madame!" Always raises a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:02 AM

Personally, alcohol (4.5% ABV) is the only & most potent mind alterer for my tastes, and then sufficient to re-hydrate while dancing.

Caffeine, while not as potent as alcohol, is nevertheless an addictive, mind altering drug. If you feel the need for a good cup of tea or coffee, then alcohol is not your only drug of choice. It is found in a range of foods and beverages and is hard to avoid.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:38 AM

A few years ago when I was in a lot of pain from arthritis my doctor prescribed codeine, saying that if it cured the pain I wouldn't get addicted.
What rubbish. It did very little for me in the way of curing the pain (I heard somewhere, probably Radio 4, that the way it works as a pain killer by making you not care about the pain). It made me feel so weird that in less than a week I stopped taking it, only to discover that I was addicted, not that I was craving it, but my body wasn't functioning properly without it. I returned the rest of the pills to the chemist and after about another week my body adjusted and I was back to normal (apart from the pain, which was eventually cured by a new hip).

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 08:16 AM

Senoufou, I am stealing that nickname!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 09:20 AM

Ergot is not mind altering, except insofar as having limbs rot off with gangrene would alter anybody's mind. Making LSD from it requires very complicated chemistry. There is a book called The Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist that says how (it must be on the web somewhere). Precise temperature control with explosive reagents under spectrally filtered light in a darkroom while keeping everything in fume cabinets. Not in my attic.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 09:35 AM

Jos, I've posted before about my experience with Tramadol, another opioid, which I was given for back pain. That didn't do much good either, and made me feel odd; I didn't feel safe to drive and would lose my footing going downstairs, for example. After I'd been taking it for just a couple of weeks, we went out for the day so I decided to manage without it so that I'd feel OK. Well that was some mistake. I became incredibly ill on the way home, and, when we arrived home and I resumed the tablets, I recovered completely within the hour. In just two weeks I had become physically dependent. In spite of all the advice I'd read about what to do to get off the drug, I just stopped taking it. I didn't sleep for three nights and was completely doolally-tap. Bloody opioids. I'd rather suffer. Never again.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 10:16 AM

Hermann Goering spent most of his career addicted to codeine and Rush Limbaugh has done the same on oxycodone. So for one kind of career it doesn't seem to get in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 10:42 AM

I had a knee replaced in 2015 and told the Doc that I didn't want to use oxycodone or oxycontin (the TR version of it) as when I had rotator cuff surgery 10 years prior to that it took me 6 torturous weeks to wean myself off it after using it twice daily in order to get through PT. To that end he prescribed Tramadol and I took one dose after surgery and decided that I'd just have to deal with the pain because it made me feel lousy. Fortunately when the nerve block from the operation wore off the pain was minimal.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 11:40 AM

Stable genius comes to mind.

You're good with horses, Don, is that what you're telling us? Or just great at horse sh... ;-)

Mrrzy - I never liked you, you drug baroness. Only teasing! ;-) I'm immune to the stuff, basically; have tried it (at friends' insistence), and it never had any noticeable effect on me. After a few sessions, I turned round & said so, and told them to stop wasting it on me. The response was something along the lines of "Your brother's the same, all it does it make him feel ill", so perhaps it's genetic? If (in moderation! ;-) ) it makes the world a better place for you, then I am delighted to hear that you can now use it freely. Just no going into business or I shall add you to my Xmas card list just so's I can cross you off! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 12:24 PM

I had a very bad ankle fracture when I was in my mid-30s, on crutches for weeks and lots of surgery. The surgeon prescribed codeine for the pain, but I stopped taking it when I realized that it left me too uncoordinated to crutch my way to the bathroom, let alone hoist myself out of the bathtub.

Codeine used to be prescribed to suppress the ferocious coughing of patients with tuberculosis and other major lung diseases, and only the invention of antibiotics and steroids caused the practice to be abandoned. My mother suffered from severe lung illness throughout her adult life, and I remember her swigging Benylin cough mixture straight from the bottle just to get through a sentence. (In those days, Benylin syrup came in a version with 8 or 10 mg of codeine per teaspoon, and in Ontario you could just pick it off the shelf at the drugstore.) Needless to say, Mum was frequently rather spaced out but, without it, she would hack all day and all night.

One of her doctors tried to cure her severe chronic bronchitis with a very crude early version of Prednisone circa 1969, but that did not go well; in those days, the side effects of long-term steroid use had yet to be documented. So my Mum had the dubious privilege of contributing to medical science in the role of an unconsulted test subject.

Incidentally, because of my mother's lung problems, I got to grow up in a tobacco-free home. That wasn't common back in the '60s, when forbidding smoking was taken as, at best, needlessly rude, but more often as downright anti-social. My father's family were total abstainers, so he came to booze and tobacco as an adult -- in fact, as a 1939 conscript in the Royal Navy, where rum and tobacco were on the ration. He told me once that he "tried to learn" to smoke, but never picked up the habit because he kept forgetting his cigarettes. My brothers and I were similarly resistant to tobacco addiction, although we were all in the ciggie-loving armed forces ("Smoke 'em if you got 'em!") by the time we were old enough to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 01:04 PM

Oh, lots of people care. There are constant headlines about police triumphs in seizing millions of euros/dollars/pounds/yen worth of cannabis in its various forms. One of the triumphs of the French and Netherlands sting on users of a private phone network for criminal purposes was huge seizures of cannabis as well as other drugs. (And, however, bless them, dismantling a network responsible for many murders and vicious cruelty.)

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM

Back in the '70's when I was working in a mental hospital, my fellow staffers and I used to retire to the home of one of them and partake of some reefer. One of our group commented to me that it was a waste of good stuff because I just became more like myself.

As far as painkillers go, I don't use NSAIDs as Naproxan caused my last few ulcers. My drug of choice is Tylenol 3 but at a lower than recommended dose. The last time I took 2 pills together I had what felt very close to an overdose.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 03:39 PM

Raedwulf, not female here, baron to you [grin]!

Surprisingly many of my friends can't get high on pot if they try. A few of them get sick. Where were all the people like that when I was growing up?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 03:48 PM

I just looked up The Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist. Holy shit, $250? (I think I may still have mine, but the binding came unglued).

AbeBooks search

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:01 PM

By the way, Michael Pollan, in The Botany of Desire says that modern cannabis is the most genetically modified plant on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:29 PM

A botany book by a man called Pollan?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 20 - 11:00 PM

Also the earliest cultivated nonfood plant.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 05:22 AM

Yes, Jack Campin. Nominative determinism. You can write a book about tents.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:45 AM

But you can't run through a camground, you can only have run... Because it's past tents.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 11:50 AM

CBD has the best medicinal use in treating seizures in children.
Nothing else is as beneficial.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 04:25 PM

Caffeine, while not as potent as alcohol,

Mostly decaff (never tea) because the caffeine was affecting my heart as I tried to go to sleep. But, yes, the first of the day I allow one coffinated coffee. And only ever instant, which as we all know has less caffeine than tea. Yes, Yes, filter coffee has five times the caffeine than instant.

The addiction of caffeine is evident if you ever tried not drinking coffee. Headaches by 11am would be normal. Decaff avoids that................. Eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:23 PM

I drink 5 or 6 cups of coffee a day made Bosnian style in a copper pot. That's about twice the strength of Italian coffee and maybe five times as strong as Anglo-American.

Except when I don't. I randomly don't get around to having any about every two weeks. No withdrawal symptoms whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 02:55 AM

Lucky you, but it will be exercising yer heart. And not necessarily in a beneficial way. Caffeiene makes the heart pump faster.
I have heard of people who own a coffee shop who found out about the headaches. It is all about how the body clock pumps out compensatory hormones to counteract the caffeine, and they constrict blood vessels, which without caffeine in the brain, become a headache. I got the effect with mere instant coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:30 AM

Caffeine is sometimes used as an anti-migraine drug. It isn't very effective.

It's pretty solidly established now that (non-decaf) coffee reduces your chance of getting heart disease, by a fairly substantial amount.

The next "maybe we shouldn't have banned that" drugs are going to be psychedelics. Ketamine (NMDA receptor blocker) is the fastest-acting antidepressant there is (taking effect within minutes ans the effect lasting for weeks) and the LSD/mescaline/psilocybin family seem to be effective as antidepressants for months or years after you've taken them.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 08:52 AM

The psychedelic drugs also show promise for PTSD.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 04:41 PM

Mrrzy - dammit, all this time I thought you were... It's that bloody username, that's what it is! :p No... whateveritwassing! ;-)

Unfortunately, many drugs show promise for something. And 10 - 20 - 30 years down the line, folk are yelling at drugs companies for protecting their investment (which is huge), without any idea of what it takes to bring a drug safely to market.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 09:54 PM

Mwah, dearie!

LSD showed great promise in the 60's, but the [fun] Drugs are bad, mkay? squad got all over its ass. So I'm glad it looks good this time too.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jos
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:04 AM

"the LSD/mescaline/psilocybin family seem to be effective as antidepressants for months or years after you've taken them"

Unfortunate, however, if unwanted or harmful effects also last for months or years.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 04:05 AM

Those effects are rare, nowhere near in the same hazard league as bleeding and ulcers from aspirin or penicillin allergy. Compared with the risks of untreated depression, or of the standard treatments for it, they're acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 10:08 AM

Jack Campin, several NATO nations have plenty of comparatively young war veterans who would agree with your last point. One of the most powerful arguments for legalizing cannabis in Canada is its use by PTSD sufferers to help them sleep; nobody wants to sling a legless ex-soldier in jail on drug charges because he smokes a spliff at night so he doesn't have to dream about the IED blast he barely survived.

Wounded veterans are among the most effective advocates for cannabis reform because they are so obviously owed something by the so-called establishment. ("Thank you for your service!") They are often very articulate and not at all scared to say what they think -- what's the worst that can happen when you've already lost a body part and you haven't had a decent night's sleep for years? And they have plenty of pertinent experience with conventional drugs and their side effects that they're only too willing to share.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 01:06 PM

Not that LSD, mescaline and psylocybin are the triumpherant of psychedelics but if I were to compare them, LSD opens every circuit in the brain simultaneously and what prevails is left to chance.
Mescaline has a definitive organic quality and psilocybin has a personal relationship with neural pathways and has a get together in the amygdala. These psychadelics generally flow the same direction down the active Associative river current but Ketamine is a dissociative and goes the other direction. Less will be remembered from the experience but some imagery and memory can be recovered from the strange sleep.

Ayehuesca has its own organic MAOI inhibitors that sustain a hallucinatory state. No one knows how ancient the unintuitive recipe is.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:07 PM

Worth mentioning; drugs like opiates, meth and to a lesser degree Exctasy have addictive qualities while the states of remarkable consciousness from psychedelic drugs do not. In fact there is a certain boring quality about repeating the experience no matter how fantastic. Psychedelics are self limiting possibly because they are challenging but of course one can will themselves to over ride their own instincts.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:50 PM

I remember *really* liking X in college. Really.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM

X enhances personal interaction and communication that therapists and psychologists would love to use with clients. Current laws takes beneficial treatments out of the hands of professionals and leaves it to amateurs. Maybe a good thing but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:54 AM

Psychedelics were fun and revelatory back in the day, especially mescaline, but now J.S. Bach and a little pot do the trick for me, but beware, Bach can be highly addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 11:36 AM

Beethoven's Ninth on acid. Couldn't be beat.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:12 PM

You just gave me a flashback (sort of), Mrrzy, to Bernstein and NY Phil doing the 9th and we, off work, doing orange sunshine on the day Hurricane Dave dumped some heavy rains on Kensington Md. and trying to swim upstream like salmon in the swale behind the house. Every time I hear it it conjures up some warm memories.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:53 PM

Orange Sunshine was the most wonderful mistake by the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 07:53 PM

I find it rather amusing that a couple of the guys on here who advocate mind-altering substances are the self-same guys who would have us thinking that they're, well, not perfectly all right in the head...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 08:47 PM

Don't mind old grease trap, he just needs to be the center of attention.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 20 - 10:33 AM

People who smoke pot, cannabis and the like always speak drivel to justify its use!!!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 20 - 07:59 PM

You could have a point, but, bejaysus, I have to ask meself whether I should ever agree with blokes from Croydon...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:57 AM

Whoa bonzo dude, like you're really harshing my buzz, man.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 11:52 AM

Truly.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 05:58 PM

I'm a user of the juice of the grape and barley. Nothing else. I can moderate that use to keep it within the realms of social life and I sleep well and get up well. So I'm somewhat bemused to read the posts of one or two people here who have in the recent past described their mental/emotional crises and asked for support but who now enthusiastically tell us about the joys of illegal, unregulated and mind-altering substances. I find myself losing sympathy at times, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 06:19 PM

Angry drunk alert.
Mellow dude (who got stoned and missed it) alert.
Consciousness expansion alert.

Stereotype alert.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 08:07 PM

Absolutely inadequate insane alert. Absolutely man full of pathetic complexes alert. Absolute idiot alert.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 09:10 PM

One thing I try to keep in mind when reading Mudcat: there are a lot of people around here who talk out of their asses. In other words, their opinions are based on their own personal prejudices. Just let that stuff go.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 09:17 PM

Yep. And someone thousands of miles away who accuses a bloke who hasn't touched a bloody drop of being a drunk should be banned from this forum. It isn't the first time, Jeri. It's Donuel's routine last-ditch.

"Jeri, you don't agree with me, therefore you're a drunk." Not nice, is it? Have a bloody word, why don't you, instead of firing off in too many directions.,.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 09:41 PM

Why did you think I was talking to YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

I thought this sort of personal cattiness was what got people banned?

FWIW, the only mind-altering substance that had any lasting adverse effect on me was nitrous oxide. Though I did make the effort to inform myself about the risks of these substances in advance.

Right now, the only one I really have to worry about is G&Ts. It probably wouldn't take many more to be fatal (quinine allergy is rapidly progressive). Bummer, that's something I miss.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 06:21 AM

Jack, if it's the quinine that's the problem you don't need to give up the gin - just drink it with something else, or just with ice.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 09:22 AM

Nicotine should be illegal and pot should be legal.
Mexican tobbaco cartels be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 02:06 PM

I kinda liked whippets. And I like nitrous for dentistry.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 09:44 PM

Jack, you could always go with a Pink Gin instead of a G&T (I don't imbibe any more but that was my favorite summer cocktail). It's just gin, bitters
and a twist of lemon but you'll want to use the best gin you can afford for that one.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 04:57 AM

ECHO Echo eco, Nitrous trous tros Oxide oxide ide ide

When I tried to make NO2 in class I found that you can get 5 different nitrous oxides all if which are NOT laughing gas.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM

When I tried to make NO2 in class ...

If you were trying to make NO₂, you were not trying to make laughing gas. NO₂ is nitrogen dioxide, a yellowish-brown liquid/redish-brown acrid gas. Laughing gas is nitrous oxide, N₂O.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 06:35 AM

In character, Doug.

We had a chemistry teacher who made some nitrogen triiodide and we watched as he put bits of it in various places all round the lab. All of of sudden the whole bloody lot went off, which wasn't what he'd intended: he'd been hoping to show us that you can trigger the explosion by touching it with a feather. He didn't need the feather...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 11:21 AM

On a works first aid course, the participents were offered a few inhalations of Entonox (nitrous oxide gas and air), the main pain relief available at the medical centre, so that we would know what we were dealing with. It made me feel woozy and I declined the offer on subsequent refresher courses.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 11:44 AM

Donuelonuelnueluelell...

So right!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jul 20 - 12:00 PM

I’ve had Entonox several times during emergency ambulance-rides - no light-headedness or wooziness, but it did significantly reduce the (very considerable) pain I was suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 09:26 AM

I am no longer a criminal!

Well, I am. I am a bank robber. I put on my mask and went into a local branch and asked them to put their hands and hand over all the money. The cashier just laughed and called to the other staff saying, "I've got another joker here!" I shouted and waved my gun about but they all just creased up with laughter. In the end I just walked out in disgust.

This new government edict about wearing masks in shops is hitting some professions harder than others.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:02 AM

Snicker

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:04 AM

well back in the sixties i had 3 friends who all started smoking dope , they all said they could handle it they all ended up fixing heroin.
now this couldbe used as an argument for legalising pot, to take it out of the hands of criminals ,
personally i would legalise every drug, but then i am not in charge
it seems you have to be an idiot like trump or johnson to lead a country.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 05:22 PM

Almost all hard drug abusers started with pot as their first illegal drug.
Almost all hard drug abusers started with cigarettes and/or caffeine before trying pot.
Almost all people who do not abuse hard drugs started with pot as their first illegal drug.
Almost all people who do not abuse hard drugs started with nicotine and/or caffeine before trying pot.
Ah, maths. Statistics, too, are a marvy thing.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 05:35 PM

It’s not the smoking of cannabis per se that makes a person progress to hard(er) drugs, It’s the fact that it is used by dealers as a lever to draw people - often, perhaps usually, young and impressionable people - into a progression to hard(er) drugs.

As the parent of a son with a 20-year-long heroin addiction, I am only too well aware of how these people operate, how they are able to apply pressure by various means, and I’m in agreement with Dick, I strongly believe in the de-criminalisation of all drugs, which would serve to loosen the hold pushers have over their victims.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 05:40 PM

Correction - I should have said, “ I strongly believe in the de-criminalisation of the consumption by the individual of all drugs, and there should be resources for them to be legally obtained. Dealing should, of course, remain a criminal offence.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 05:57 PM

Almost all of my friends have used pot fairly often at some time. None has ever had an addiction problem, with one exception. She's never tried pot and has spent half her life addicted to codeine.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:14 AM

Quite so, Jack. It’s not that cannabis is especially physically addictive (although it is thought to be psychologically addictive), it is the way dealers use it, along with their well-documented manipulative ‘techniques’, in order to lead users - especially young, malleable, and often fearful users - down the road of ever-‘harder’ and, ultimately, more profitable, substances.

I see no worthwhile purpose served by the criminalisation of cannabis consumption or, for that matter, consumption of any of the ‘illegal’ substances. I’m convinced that decriminalisation and the setting up of legal sources of supply for those who choose to use would go a very long way towards winning the ‘war on drugs’, and would remove a great deal of the criminality involved in funding substance-abusers’ habits.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 09:18 AM

So it should be legal to buy pot but not tplo sell it?

Also, heroin pushers don't sell you pot to get you to try heroin. That is a long-debunked myth.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 09:19 AM

That should read TO sell it. Morning fingers, not breakfast bong-hits.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM

Mrrzy, don’t try to tell me how it works, I have 20 years’ experience, both with my son and 12 years working with young people, a significant number of whom were users, during a 12-year spell as a Youth Worker with our local Education Authority.

Please read my posts again - properly this time. I said that consumption should be decriminalised, and that legal (and therefore presumably licensed) suppliers only should be permitted to sell it.

The way dealers work - and this is from my actual experience of what happened with my son, and with several other ‘hard’ drug-users whom I worked with during my time as a Youth-Worker, not something I read somewhere - is that they employ a ‘carrot and stick’ technique to hook their victims. They give cannabis ‘free’ to young, gullible people for a while but then they ‘call in the debt’ by giving them cannabis and other substances to sell, on pain of getting a beating-up, or informing on them to the parents, or both. If the victim doesn’t sell the stuff, or fails to hand the requisite amount of money over to the dealer, they get the beating. The dealer then has the victim under control.

The next step is to suggest to the victim to ‘try a bit of this’, the ‘this’ being something a little ‘stronger’, and again for ‘free’. Various techniques of ‘persuasion’, physical and psychological, are employed by the dealer to get the victim to comply once again. Sooner or later, the new ‘debt’ is called in, once again on pain of a beating or being informed on. Refusal to comply usually results in the aforementioned beating - as my son found out the hard way in the car park of the place where he worked when he tried to refuse to do what his supplier(s) wanted. His explanation for his injuries to his mother and me was that he “Fell off the top of a stack of pallets in the warehouse at work”.

And so it goes on, step by step, deeper and deeper, until the user becomes a part of the dealing network - whether willing or not. Once the victim becomes addicted to whichever drug - heroin in my son’s case - the dealer has a ready-made ‘employee’ whom he uses to move drugs around, sell drugs, engage in criminal activities, whatever.

So, whilst I agree that the idea that cannabis ‘automatically leads to hard-drug habit’ is nonsense and is not a valid reason for its use to be a criminal offence, there is no doubt that, for those who become hard-drug users, and definitely for the many users who find themselves part of a dealer’s network of mules, many, perhaps most, begin with cannabis.

As my son often says, “Nobody who’s a Smack-Head started with Heroin, he/she started, almost inevitably, with cannabis”, and I believe that the decriminalisation of all ‘illegal’ drugs, and the setting up of legal routes of supply, would go a long way to dis-arming the dealers of the psychological and physical weapons they use to control their dealing-network and their customers.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:51 AM

And, for the record, and in case anyone thinks I’m a closet-toker, I’ve never used any ‘illegal’ substances, never smoked cannabis, never even been a tobacco-smoker. My drugs have been caffeine (still is) and alcohol (but no longer, my last alcoholic drink was consumed on 20th December, 2005 - haven’t touched a drop since).

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:25 PM

Thats enough to make a parole officer proud :^>
But seriously, thanks for your efforts. There are people who need help with constructive moderation or sobriety. That being said I'm sure I would enjoy breakfast with Mrrzy after a bong hit or two.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 12:02 AM

I am reminded of the scene where somebody is court-ordered to rehab for pot, and all the addicts are, like, Did you ever turn tricks in the alley for pot?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 05:23 AM

In the UK, nobody is ‘court-ordered to rehab for pot’ or, for that matter, for any drug-use offences.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:24 AM

Right. Because with pot you don't get forced into crime. Exactly. The idea that pot dealers can try to hook you with freebies and then force you into anything has looong been debunked.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 10:04 AM

Well, before responding to that I've looked at a number of sources and I can say that the debate over whether cannabis is a "gateway" drug is far from settled. So I regard your assertion The idea that pot dealers can try to hook you with freebies and then force you into anything has looong been debunked, made with such comforting certainty, to be highly irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 10:37 AM

Hopefully, Steve, my post based on a very great deal of personal experience, some of it very bitter indeed, dealing with drug users and dealers first-hand and being made only too aware of how they operate, has to a great degree debunked that highly irresponsible statement.

For once, I do have to agree with Bonzo when he says that, “People who smoke pot, cannabis and the like.....speak drivel to justify its use“. However, I don’t see that as a justification for criticising their consumption - on the contrary, I’d far prefer it if consumption of cannabis was de-criminalised, in which case their need to justify its use would disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 10:39 AM

Sorry, should have ended -” in which case their need to justify its use would disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 10:42 AM

Bollocks! Try again - “In which case, their need to justify its use at all would disappear”.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 11:39 AM

I'm fortunate enough to live in a state where medical cannabis is legal so I don't feel compelled to justify my usage to anyone but I didn't even when I used it recreationally decades ago. What pisses me off are the social conservatives who have never used it and have no knowledge of it's benefits but still would deny it to folks whose lives would be improved by it's use. Bonzo is the one spewing drivel, as he often does on this site. (Still though, the guy is good for a laugh now and then.)

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 12:03 PM

Gilly, I don’t believe anyone here was talking about medical cannabis. That’s a different subject altogether, and I can’t imagine anyone criticising its use for medical purposes.

And, as I’ve said several times now, although I’ve never used cannabis recreationally (I do use cannabinoid-oil for arthritic pain relief), I don’t criticise those who do, and I support the de-criminalisation of the practice.

Just so we’re absolutely clear on that!

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 01:50 PM

As I wrote, BW, even when I was using illicit, recreational drugs I didn't feel the need to justify it to anyone and I never got the impression that Mrrzy or anyone else in this thread was either. I'll just chalk it up to Bonzo being Bonzo. Btw, I hope things work out okay with your family's situation.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 02:49 PM

There are lots of new criminals mushrooming up in the form of ununiformed police kidnapping demonstrators in unmarked SUVs detaining people in jails and later releasing them without records or reports.
This tactic reminds me of Putin Troops fighting in Ukraine without identification.

In ICE detention camps there are children treated much worse than criminals. I suppose kids who do not return to school will become the neo criminals.

Trump tried to criminalize Obama and Hillary and has decriminalized General Flynn and Stone.

Who will eventually pardon Trump?

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM

Thanks Mrrzy, things look better now and he’s working. But addiction is forever, it’s the controlling of that addiction that matters. One day at a time...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:51 AM

I took an addiction seminar in the 80's, in grad school at UVa, cognitive area, psych dept. The general consensus of published, peer-reviewed, scientific opinion, was that while pot was, indeed, almost always encountered before other drugs, there was no evidence -none- that it *led to* [eg was a gateway to] abusing harder drugs. More people go from mother's milk, cigarettes, and alcohol to heroin than pot to heroin. More people stop at pot than stop at mother's milk, cigarettes or alcohol.
The one thing that *did* correlate with hard drug use and addiction was inconsistent use of affection in upbringing, especially alternations of neglect and spoiling.
I know "general consensus of opinion" is doubly redundant.
I wish I still had the materials for that course.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:50 AM

Mrrzy, I think you’ve just confirmed my point!

As I said earlier, I agree that there is no **automatic progression** from cannabis to hard drugs, and in that respect, it isn’t a ‘Gateway’. I know a number of cannabis-users who never progressed any further than a recreational spliff at the weekend. That’s not under any kind of debate AFAIC.

But, in my actual real-life experience, over many years, with my own son and working in a pastoral and educational role with a number of other hard-drug users, there is no doubt that cannabis is used as a ‘come-on’ by dealers when they target young people. So, AFAIC, in that sense, cannabis does represent a ‘Gateway’ - of a different kind, and dependent on the circumstances of the user’s introduction to it.

And I repeat, because I’m not sure you’re getting it - I do not criticise the consumption of cannabis or, for that matter, any drug, and I support the decriminalisation of consumption of all drugs. However I do support the setting up of legal, licensed supply routes, and the continued criminalisation of unauthorised supply.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 PM

I gave creedence to 'Love and other addictions' by Gail Sheehy

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:13 PM

Backwoodsman, me too, but the plural of anecdote is not data!

Once my pot dealer was out of pot and asked if I wanted "the other" which I assumed was hash. Opening the disappointingly tiny packet I found coke, not hash, which I had never bought, so I didn't, and still don't, understand why she thought I might have wanted it...
But she never otherwise tried to sell me anything else. That was a misunderstanding rather than a push.
Gave it to a cousin I knew would appreciate it. Still have never bought coke on purpose...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:06 AM

I guess she didn’t see you as a prospective recruit to the dealing team, Mrrzy! If she had, you might have found yourself in a different situation. Y’know, we actually agree, but there are two levels that have to be taken into consideration.

On the first level (and I **think** this is the level your ‘published, peer-reviewed scientific opinion’ was probably studying) there’s no evidence that the simple act of using cannabis, even on a regular basis, leads **automatically** to hard-drug usage and, in that respect, it most certainly is not the ‘gateway’ drug it’s been widely thought to be. There are plenty of cannabis users who never progressed from cannabis to other, ‘harder’ drugs to testify to that.

But, on the second level, it definitely is used as a ‘hook’ by high-level dealers in their recruitment process to their dealing network - that’s a hard fact in the area I live and worked in, and my (now 40 year-old, so no longer an impressionable kid) son’s experience, and the experience of the other user/dealers I worked with. Now, you can heap scorn on my ‘anecdotal evidence’ vs. your ‘published, peer-reviewed scientific opinion’, but my anecdote is fact-based, witnessed with my own eyes. An ‘opinion’ is just that, ‘peer-reviewed’ or not, and hard experience will always Trump ‘opinion’, at least for me.

But, as I say, we agree, to a great extent at least. I’m glad you’re no longer a criminal, and I look forward to the day when no-one is criminalised for their use of a drug which is no more dangerous, and probably less addictive, than nicotine and alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:56 AM

In the UK, cannabis is often a gateway to tobacco. The British thing (not done anywhere else I've been) is to smoke hash in cigarette roll-ups. I know a few people who got hooked on tobacco that way. Probably a higher death rate than moving on to heroin.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 09:59 AM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 10:38 AM

Never had any interest in either cannabis or tobacco.

Tried one cigarette, coughed up what felt like pieces of lung, almost vomited with the disgusting taste, thought “Bugger that”, and never bothered again.

Never even tried cannabis. Completely and irrevocably disinclined.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

I can't imagine that too many people who have never smoked a fag took their first puff on a rollup containing marijuana.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 11:23 AM

I can't imagine that too many people who have never smoked a fag took their first puff on a rollup containing marijuana.

I did. So did everybody I knew in New Zealand, Australia and the US.

The British approach is uniquely disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

It's weird in this day and age that the philosopy of "Reefer Madness" still hold some sway.
We have dispensories around here. Maybe "dealers" still exist, but I can drive to two different states and buy weed. I don't like it, though, but I know people who do, and that's fine. I think it's a matter of how my body chemistry reacts to it.

I smoked cigarettes for a long time, and din't really notice a correlation (desire, or addiction-wise) between weed and tobacco.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 12:23 PM

Still completely illegal to supply here, Jeri, although consumption is frequently ‘turned a blind eye to’. Your ‘dispensaries’ are what I’m advocating above, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:37 PM

It's not just the Brits who mix tobacvo and reefer... In North Africa and many Francophone places it's really hard to find pot, or hash, not already premixed with tobacco.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 07:00 PM

Hash Gauloises would be *really* hardcore.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 11:05 PM

[Shudder]

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 04:02 AM

Sounds like the true definition of whacky terbaccy.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 04:11 AM

One of my (cigarette-smoking) friends once described Gauloises as being ‘made from privet-leaves and dried dog-s**t’.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 05:04 AM

Not so much privet, though. Even wjen O smoked cigarettes, those were unconsumable.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 05:16 AM

Back in my smoking days I favored unfiltered cigs,Camels, Players,Luckies, but I damn near choked on the one and only drag I took off a Gauloise.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:18 AM

Camel cigarettes were described as the only cigarettes with a picture of the factory on the pack. :-)

I smoked for twelve years, giving up at the age of 26 (at 8.05 PM on 21 Feb 1978 with 17 Embassy left in the pack). I haven't touched tobacco ever since. I'd have been well dead by now had I carried on, as I was obsessively addicted. A night in the pub equalled twenty fags. I could smoke anything, including strong pipe baccy and cigars. I was a walking pollution hazard to all around me. It took three months of sighing agony to give up and I could still fancy a ciggy even today. Fortunately for me, Mrs Steve got pregnant with our first during that time so I had just the incentive I needed to ditch the fags. I still dream occasionally that I'm smoking. I remember the amazing hit you'd get if you'd deprived yourself for two or three days then lit up. Aaaahhhhh...

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:59 AM

You're bringing back memories, Steve. I was 27 when I kicked but I still can't turn down the occasional cigar, as long as it's a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 02:34 PM

If someone has smoked pot daily for a number of years and also drives a car, can they really be sure that they are no longer a criminal?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: I am no longer a criminal!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:06 AM

I drive over the speed limit, too. But in this one respect I have been declared not a criminal.