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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Jos Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:01 PM DMcG - Is "black or skin tone makeup" the exact wording used? If so, it does seem rather confusing. Does it mean that "black" is not a skin tone? Does it mean that people cannot even use makeup the colour (tone) of their own skin? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Captain Swing Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:16 PM Well said Joe. To my mind, this has been an open and interesting discussion - no personal remarks or insults but robust challenge on both sides. One of the points that gets missed is the notion of trust. If people feel threatened they are more likely to feel offended or act defensively. It's clear, certainly in the US, that many many black people (with good reason) do not trust the authorities and particularly the police. I think that the situation in the UK is better but still has a long way to go. The small considerations, such as the topic of this thread, that we can show can help to rectify the deficit of trust. Bonzo, you suggest that most black folks will not be offended at all. Sure, there will be many black people who are extremely secure in their environment and trusting of the white people they encounter. In those cases there will often be banter on both sides as Senoufu describes. No one will be offended because the trust is there. Would that were the case universally. As a white, heterosexual, English man I've never suffered prejudice. However, a friend of mine, a white, heterosexual man suffered considerable prejudice over the years at work ...... because he was Irish. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Brian Peters Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:32 PM Lots of Border Morris sides are doing imaginative and spectacular things with alternative face paint designs or masks. Who would choose to die in a ditch for blackface? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:37 PM Absolutely Brian - having some respect for other's sensitivities costs absolutely nothing. It's not like demanding teams do not dance - just use a different colour - if disguise is the intent (as so many people state in defence) that works equally well! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM Well here's a few thoughts. First, "This goes back centuries, it's tradition, therefore leave us alone." Tradition dictated that young lads who stole a sheep could be hanged. Tradition dictated that women suspected of being witches could be ducked until they drowned. Tradition dictated that chaps accused of treason could be strung up on the gallows and their guts cut out and spread on the ground before they were dead. Tradition is a wonderful thing... Second, "I know this black chap who doesn't object..." If you say this, or even think this, you are the worst kind of racist. You really do need to have a good think. Third, don't be so pig-headed. If you claim that the blacking up was to do with hiding your face from your boss, then you must accept that any other bloody colour will also do the job. 99 per cent of people who see your dance wouldn't give a damn if you used pink instead. Therein lies another potential piece of.... The resort to "tradition" has made this world a much worse place. Billions of people are repressed by their religion via "tradition." You are supposed to be folkies, ladies and gents who are of the people. Well just try to be of ALL the people, not just of us palefaces... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Captain Swing Date: 04 Jul 20 - 07:25 PM Could do with a 'Like' or 'Agree' button here Steve. Well said. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Jul 20 - 07:39 PM Sorry, I did go a bit off on one there. But I really do feel that there's something horribly hypocritical about people who refuse to move on whilst clinging to "tradition" no matter what. We live in a western world that has made at least some progress in confronting racism, misogyny and homophobia, always recognising that we still have a long way to go. The point about blacking up is that you don't have to do it and that it would cause an absolute minimum of inconvenience if you ditched it. So, if you arrogantly wish to cling to it, pause for a minute and just ask yourself why.... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 04 Jul 20 - 08:08 PM Absolutely spot on Steve! Unfortunately there is a reactionary element to the folk scene who think tradition is everything and will not move on to embrace our more enlightened and progressive times - whether it be in musical interpretation or shaking off racist and other discriminatory behaviours Just change the face colouring - its not that hard really..and I will find and kill the next person who says that blue face colour is discriminatory against Smurfs ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: RTim Date: 04 Jul 20 - 09:58 PM The problem is they can only equate "Disguise" as Black Face! Many teams have come to the correct conclusion in this modern age that there are other means of Disguise that will not upset portions of society. I would calculate that at most there are less than 200 or 300 Border Morris dancers who stick to this unnecessary practice....and Why is Disguise even needed today??? All for the want of a different Disguise!! Tim Radford (who really is fed up with making the same point for years!) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Jul 20 - 10:36 PM People make traditions and laws - People can change traditions and laws.. Traditions and Laws are not handed down and set forever by almighty Gods... .. and for the religious oddballs amongst us, I'd seriously question the credibility of a god who insisted on worshippers blacking themselves up...!!!??? Also - following up Steve's point.. If you look on far right n@tionalist chat sites *.. It's amazing how many of the posters all deny they are the slightest bit racist, and have even a convenient 'black mate' who isn't offended and agrees whole-heartily with every word they spout of white nationalist rhetoric...??? [* which I'm certain some of you do.. probably on a daily basis...] |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: DMcG Date: 05 Jul 20 - 02:00 AM DMcG - Is "black or skin tone makeup" the exact wording used? If so, it does seem rather confusing. Does it mean that "black" is not a skin tone? It is the exact wording. I put the link to the statement in my opening post so people can read the whole thing. Personally, I don't find that confusing at all. Again, we are not talking about a legal text, hammered through Parliament and review committees to ensure that it is absolutely clear. Even actual laws can't do that, or we would have fewer lawyers and judicial interpretations of laws. What we are talking about is a number of organisations, aware of the BLM issues, and asking what, if anything, they should do about it. To me, that doesn't even hinge on whether anyone is offended or not: it is simply asking is this a tradition we should cling to, given there are other alternatives? As for whether black is a skin tone: that seems a diversion. I think that choice of words is, as I said, to discourage a side deciding to adopt Holywood's idea of American Indians, or suchlike. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Manitas_at_home Date: 05 Jul 20 - 02:03 AM Most Border and Molly sides aren't that traditional anyway. Most perform dances that are recently created, dance to recently composed tunes played by large bands of instruments that were not used traditionally. If they are willing to break with tradition in those aspects then why not in regards to facial decoration? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: theleveller Date: 05 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM Black lives matter. Blackface morris doesn't. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Cj Date: 05 Jul 20 - 04:08 AM leveller, agreed. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Jul 20 - 05:01 AM Steve Shaw Date: 04 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM - The best post on this thread. Completely correct on every point. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Observer Date: 05 Jul 20 - 05:34 AM "Tradition dictated that young lads who stole a sheep could be hanged. Tradition dictated that women suspected of being witches could be ducked until they drowned. Tradition dictated that chaps accused of treason could be strung up on the gallows and their guts cut out and spread on the ground before they were dead. Tradition is a wonderful thing..." Sorry but "Tradition" had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any of the above: 1. The sheep stealer, way back in the day, was breaking the law [If you stole a sheep today you still would be breaking the law], his crime of robbery affected the lives of not only the owner of the sheep and his family, but the lives of a number of other families in times when life was a great deal more fragile than it is now - hence the severity of the punishment. Historical Note: Lots of crimes carried the death penalty, court records show that roughly only one in ten were ever carried out. Sentences were commuted to Hard Labour for life or Transportation for life. 2. Witchcraft was viewed by the Church as being punishable by death. Counter to what many believe no witches were burned at the stake in England, that fate was reserved for the religious crime of heracy, witches in England were tried for and punished in accordance with the crimes they committed - but again it was LAW not Tradition. 3. Treason/Sedition along with Murder has always been viewed as the most serious of crimes and as such carried with them the harshest sentences. Last group of people sentenced to the end described were a group of weavers from Larkhall in Scotland in the 1830s - they were to be publicly executed on Glasgow Green and in Stirling to serve as an example - They were hanged by the neck until dead because the authorities could not find anyone who was prepared to carry-out the rest of the sentence. Nothing to do with Tradition. As to "blacking up" to serve as a disguise? Very effective, special forces soldiers throughout the world of all races, creeds and hues do so and are taught to do so for that very good reason. As for using any other colour back in the past? Well that might have proved difficult and counter-productive, having said that I dare say that it might have been done, but it would have been nowhere near as effective and besides soot from a fireplace would always have been ready to hand whereas colouring your face with clay or earth would indicate very clearly to any local where you came from in a district or in an area as small as a parish. Go for other means of colouring up and that would have involved some sort of expense which rather defeats the object if the reason you "blacked up" in the first place was to beg or "guise" for money. Always found that long standing "traditions" centre around the history and cultures of the indigenous population so it should come as no surprise to anybody that the older traditions of the British Isles and indeed of Europe are rather "white". The world does change and newer "traditions" are adopted the one that immediately springs to mind here in the UK in my lifetime is the Nottinghill Carnival, which is now - Yep ya got it, it's a tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM It wasn't black people being offended that prompted this decision. It was white nationalists using blackface morris as a symbol of their shitty ideology. The intangible cultural heritage version of "statue defending". The morris organizations couldn't possibly want to be associated with violent fascist thuggery like that, and fair play to them for responding quickly and decisively. I see the hacked "Dave Hanson" account is posting again. Block it please, mods. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Billy Suggers Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM I never supported the move to blackface. There was nowt wrong with woad |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: DMcG Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:08 AM Exactly, Jack C. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:35 AM I can't help noting the arguments used here in defense of blackface are eerily similar to the ones used in defence of the 'Zwarte Piet' (Black Pete) figure in the Netherlands. A tradition that for all its denial has a clear and obvious racist element. Over there the defence has become entrenched, 'our culture' and all that. There's no reason why these traditions shouldn't adapt and change with the times, no excuse for rabidly clinging to it. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Dave Hanson Date: 05 Jul 20 - 07:07 AM Stop jumping the gun Jack Campin, all on here under my name has been posted by ME get it Jack ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 05 Jul 20 - 08:39 AM The obvious difference is that "Black Piet" is intended to represent a black person, a blacked-up morris dancer isn't. I realise this is a battle which has probably been lost, but I am disappointed that the morris movement has surrendered to the far right over this. I was also disappointed when EFDSS caved in, but as they are now dependent on Arts Council money that was to be expected. In the Guardian article which followed David Cameron being photographed with a morris side in 2014 the writer Lola Okolosie said she was aware of the complex history of morris sides blacking up, but went on to equate it with minstrelsy and golliwogs. This resulted in a comment from a reader which said, "I am black and very proud of it but in this case I'm not offended in the least by the Morris dancers. Why? Because I understand the history behind them and it has got bugger all to do with black people or portraying them in a certain light. This tradition came about when most people in England had not even seen a black person. So why spend time looking for racist connotations where there are none?" It is not racist to wish to preserve our traditions, and neither should it be seen as right-wing to want to do so. It is true that Border and Molly are both largely modern reconstructions, but blacking-up is one of the few authentic elements of them. I understand the wish to avoid giving offence. However where offence is taken because of a misunderstanding the answer is to explain and educate, not surrender. If sides choose to use different colours, for any reason, that is of course up to them. However there is an element of bullying and group-think in this latest decision which I find objectionable. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:04 AM I don't see any bullying, Howard. Nobody has passed a law. Representative organisations can follow their own paths as can individual morris sides. It's certainly a complex issue, and if I was still dancing I wouldn't want to spend my afternoon explaining why I was wearing blackface to everybody who asked. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM "The point about blacking up is that you don't have to do it and that it would cause an absolute minimum of inconvenience if you ditched it. So, if you arrogantly wish to cling to it, pause for a minute and just ask yourself why...." Because I enjoy watching it, and for no other reason. I enjoy watching well performed Cotswold style morris more however, especially the brilliant but sadly now defunct Morris Offspring with Faustus |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM The obvious difference is that "Black Piet" is intended to represent a black person, His defenders would often argue he's black because of the soot encountered going up and down chimneys. Somewhat in contradiction to the broken speech and accents (often like a Surinam creole)he widely speaks/spoke in. But the point was ofcourse the arguments used , tradition, it's 'ours', it's been always like that, it's PC, who are they coming here telling us our traditions are racist etc etc are very similar. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM Cotswold, blacking up? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Captain Swing Date: 05 Jul 20 - 09:33 AM Peter Laban, playing the PC Card from either side of the argument is not helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 05 Jul 20 - 10:40 AM Exactly my point Captain. Perhaps I should have said the argument was 'PC gone mad' |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Andrew W-R Date: 05 Jul 20 - 12:26 PM As I understand it, Morris is a mutation of the word Moorish. I.e. Dancing in the style of the Moors who, to most people's understanding in the mid 15th century were black. I have also been given to understand that that is the origin of guising and that it was intentionally 'blackface' in the same way Al Jolson was. Doing something for 500 years may make it traditional, but it doesn't make it right. An opinion shared by the Bard of Avon: HORATIO Is it a custom? HAMLET Ay, marry, is ’t. But to my mind, though I am native here And to the manner born, it is a custom More honored in the breach than the observance. Nor should this decision be about political correctness (mad or otherwise). Article 1 of the UDHR begins: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Note the word dignity. Blackface is a caricature of black people's physical appearance and as such impinges upon their dignity, irrespective of whether insult is intended or felt. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Jul 20 - 01:00 PM What absolute drivel guest Andrew W-R Long may blacked up morris be performed. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 05 Jul 20 - 01:11 PM FWIW, 'Black Pete' is also supposedly Moorish in origin. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Jul 20 - 01:24 PM Yes that is correct. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Raggytash Date: 05 Jul 20 - 01:44 PM Speaking as a born and bred Smurf I find it offensive when people paint their faces blue. Shouldn't be allowed. Now most of you are saying "what an idiot" and I have to say I agree with you. As far as I am aware painting faces black was merely done to avoid "those in power" from recognising those who were dancing. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST Date: 05 Jul 20 - 05:14 PM In my area the “dancers” danced through the villages around Christmas and put soot on their faces so they could cause mishchief and also the landowners wouldn’t know who it was as they had just been set on for the year at the Michaelmas Fair. But every one knew who it was , this was told to me about 20 years ago by a lady who was 97 and my neighbours mother . Make of it what you will |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:08 PM It may well have been used as disguise by poachers, machine breakers or whatever. That is irrelevant to the predicament of the morris organizations. Read what the Morris Ring actually wrote. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:23 PM It's irrelevant, full stop, Jack! No dancer nowadays needs to disguise himself/herself for any sort of anonimity issue. (As a morris dancer myself I'm avoiding making the usual wisecrack here). The cheapness of blacking materials is no longer relevant. Most use greasepaint nowadays anyway. Continuing any activity solely because 'it is traditional' is ridiculous in the extreme. For any tradition to survive in the modern world it needs to be adaptable. Christ, even religious leaders are beginning to realise this! Okay, well some of them. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 05 Jul 20 - 07:25 PM Nick - you obviously didn't see my warning - I have a vague idea where you live too :-) 'I will find and kill the next person who says that blue face colour is discriminatory against Smurfs ;-)' |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Captain Swing Date: 05 Jul 20 - 08:06 PM Well said Steve Gardham 5.26 and 6.23 Bonzo: "all these nutty "must not do blackface morris" herberts are mentally ill, just like the vegan obsessives!!!" If you are going to make statements as above you do really need to provide some evidence or people will just dismiss what you say in the same way one would the ramblings of a person weaving their sad somnolent sway down the street swigging from a bottle of Buckfast or White Lightning. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jul 20 - 08:19 PM There's no question that here in the US, blackface was used to ridicule Black people in a very denigrating way. Wearing blackface here is now completely unacceptable. When Americans see blackface Morris dancers, they read racism - whether or not racism is intended. And I think we're at a point where many people in the UK read racism in blackface, whether or not that is the intent. Changing to other colors seems to be a good compromise. Here in the US, there are people who think that every song sung by blackface minstrels must be suppressed. I read a long diatribe against "I've Been Working on the Railroad," and I just can't buy it. I still sing "Old Black Joe" and see nothing wrong with it, but that's another song that is under attack. These are hard decisions to make. I got my head chewed off by somebody who was offended that I read the lyrics of a "John Chinaman" song to demonstrate the racism of such songs. I think if I don't give graphic examples, people don't understand that even "cute" songs can be racist. So, I guess that even if you don't mean it, wearing blackface sends hurtful, racist messages to at least some people. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Jul 20 - 03:35 AM In a very measured way, Joe has exactly nailed why we should call time on blackface. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 06 Jul 20 - 05:43 AM Yes well said Joe |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM Joe?? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Dave Hanson Date: 06 Jul 20 - 07:31 AM That was Joe Grint methinks. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:07 AM "So, I guess that even if you don't mean it, wearing blackface sends hurtful, racist messages to at least some people." That is their problem, if they don't like it don't watch. The very thought of yoghurt makes me want to puke, so I don't do it!!! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:15 AM Yep Dave is correct. If that is what you were asking Steve? My well said was in response to Joe Offer's comments on blackface |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Doug Chadwick Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:28 AM The idea of putting soot on the face, so that landowners didn't know what their labourers were up to or middle class professionals could indulge in rustic pursuits without damaging their reputation, seems like a back story to me. The local population must have been easily confused. As disguise, it's right up there with Clark Kent's glasses. DC |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jul 20 - 11:36 AM Clark Kent Wasn't he an illegal immigrant from Krypton? How he got a green card and that job on the Daily Planet I'll never know. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM Oh no.. Don't get bonz started on space aliens coming here with their faces painted, disguised as human beings, taking our jobs and our women... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Jul 20 - 12:00 PM Prime suspects are Cummings and Gove.. No amount of Caucasian flesh tone makeup can hide their oddly shaped alien heads... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Date: 06 Jul 20 - 01:18 PM [quote] The idea of putting soot on the face, so that landowners didn't know what their labourers were up to or middle class professionals could indulge in rustic pursuits without damaging their reputation, seems like a back story to me. The local population must have been easily confused. As disguise, it's right up there with Clark Kent's glasses. [/quote] I wonder why the Rebbeca rioters bothered with blacking their faces then? Somehow I think that you have never watched a black faced side containing people who you know. |
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