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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jul 20 - 04:54 PM Could you define 'normal' for us please, Bonz? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:50 AM There is an ever increasing number of people who are simply not normal - they are stark raving bonkers and a pain in the neck!!! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM Hi Dick There is actually a world of difference between 'made to feel welcome' and 'proactive in recruitment'. The latter can actually be a form of discrimination within itself. It can and does lead to situations where a particular group/committee/team are forced into having a set percentage of female/gay/trans/ethnic/religious members. I joined a political party a couple of years ago and attended a meeting where out of 8 candidates 3 were being selected for council and 2 of them had to be female, so 2 separate votes had to be taken, the first only consisting of female candidates. To me this in itself was discrimination, but my protests were brushed aside. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jul 20 - 06:54 AM Racism has also been directed at irish football players. it would be much more progressive if the morris ring and other morris federations made proactive attempts to encourage dancers of all nationalities, in my opinion that would be more effective at discouraging racism and would be a step towards integration of cultures anddifferent racial groups, the same applies to encouragement of transgender dancers they need to be made to feel welcome that means being proactive in recruitment |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: peteglasgow Date: 15 Jul 20 - 06:23 AM it would not do anyone any harm and would be a progressive sign of accepting the new realities. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 15 Jul 20 - 05:45 AM But it's nothing but an emperor's new clothes reason. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: peteglasgow Date: 15 Jul 20 - 05:06 AM i've always thought that football was ahead of the game with racism. there isn't a football fan in the country whose club hasn't had a black hero. are there any football fans who would not celebrate if a black guy scored for their team? well, they aren't football fans - they are just racist. while there is plenty of stupidity too - when your hero is mane, henry or larsson to give racist abuse to other team's black players. (and wtf is going on in the pretty little heads of 'the democratic lads football alliance?) with morris - many of us have favourites - i remember seeing rag morris (i think) (and thought they were great) 30 years ago at the trowbridge festival. as i recall, they had black faces then. had i seen them this year at shrewsbury and they had changed to - say - red and yellow, i'd be delighted. What is the problem with responding to change - particularly for such a good reason? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Jul 20 - 04:30 AM Bit defeatist, Bonzo. Just think about when we were little lads. Not one black footballer in the top leagues. Now see what we have... Nothing's perfect and there's still racism attached to footie, but every player now takes the knee at the start of every Premier League game... Things can and do move on. And everyone knows that the Senegalese player Sadio Mané of Liverpool is the world's greatest player at the world's greatest club... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 15 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM It is a bit ironic but also confusing that "traditional" means "that which was done for many years" and therefore acceptable to the public, and some descritive phrases that are therefore "traditional" are now no longer acceptable. So traditional is no longer neccessarily acceptable, but things are changing so fast that I find it hard to keep up! Robin |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jul 20 - 03:49 AM this is the situation , it is acceptable to disguise but not full face disguise, the irony of all this is that it is now acceptable according to the new guidelines... to disguise as a black and white minstrel,which has racist connotations, on a white face all that has to be done now is copy the black and white minstrel design in a patternblack to quote Snuffy who is quoting the new guidelines If you want to use only black, including smudgy or streaky designs, that is fine too – just keep it to less than half of the visible skin on your face. Obvious patterns and designs are also a good way of using black without the potential to cause problems. Obvious patterns and designs are also a good way of using black without the potential to cause problems. I dont suppose anyone other than a racist would want to imitate black and white minstrel design, but those racists who apparently have infiltrated morris dancing could now proceed to cause further trouble if they so wish. the whole area is now a minefield. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jul 20 - 02:07 AM stilly, i am talking about disguise on peoples face. half black half white disguise on peoples faces is sensible enough. Bonzo. people who are of different nationalities need to be encouraged to take part in morris dancing, its perhaps a question of being proactive about it, |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jul 20 - 07:23 PM Stop with the nonsense, Dick. Mixed-race is an acceptable term, as in "my children are mixed race." Forget the measurements and colors and caste stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jul 20 - 04:23 PM fair enough snuffy, that seems sensible. so half black half white is no problem. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Snuffy Date: 14 Jul 20 - 09:52 AM Here's the guidance recently circulated by the Morris Ring, which indicates that you can still have black (or any other colour) on your face, but not 100%. Sounds fine to me. What do you mean by “full face black or other skin tone makeup?” Any solid full face coloured make up which could be taken by an observer as likely to imitate or parody a skin colour different from your own. ‘Make up’ is used here as a general term to mean any kind of stage make up, face paint, soot, charcoal, or similar. Although we acknowledge that our member teams are not intentionally racist, this practice has long been associated with making fun of other races, through the portrayal of memes and stereotypes. Since these historical portrayals most often used “blacking” of various sorts, full face black make up is now irrevocably associated with giving offence. It does not matter that it is not meant in that way. It is the effect on others – not the intent – which could give rise to a legal challenge for racial harassment under the Equality Act. The key words are “solid” and “full face”. If you want black to be part of your makeup or disguise, that is fine. If you want to use only black, including smudgy or streaky designs, that is fine too – just keep it to less than half of the visible skin on your face. Obvious patterns and designs are also a good way of using black without the potential to cause problems. If you want to use a mask or face covering, please make sure that it doesn’t imitate full face black or other skin tone. We want teams to honour the spirit of the request, not to worry about the minutiae of what is and is not allowed. In short, we are asking teams to work with us on this matter, to help protect themselves and their fellow member teams from unintended problems. Please contact your Area Rep or a Ring Officer to discuss. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM Most ritual dance sides are constantly scratching around for new recruits. I can't imagine for one moment any decent side turning anyone away, other than those who exercise a gender preference. However, it would be good to see at least some mixed race sides, or even sides of other ethnicities. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Modette Date: 14 Jul 20 - 09:01 AM ... and 'non-white'! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 14 Jul 20 - 09:01 AM https://genius.com/John-agard-half-caste-annotated Nice poem. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 14 Jul 20 - 08:59 AM Sad to see the term 'half caste' used here. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 Jul 20 - 08:41 AM Bonz - there may at present be some truth in what you say.. But given time and positive encouragement, and a welcoming environment.. You might be surprised... There have already been notable experiments in cross-cultural folk music/dance collaboration, to varying degrees of success.. But obviously, diversity and inclusivity can not be forced on folk in a rigid formal doctrinaire 'quota' manner.. That would be self defeating, and definitely would not work... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 14 Jul 20 - 08:25 AM The problem with making morris dancing more diverse is that non white people have no interest in English traditions whatsoever, so little chance of recruitment from that sector!' |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM if morros dancing federations want to combat racism , they should make serious attempts to encourage black brown and half caste and yellow dancers and dancers of all nationailities. banning things never works, prohibition of alcohol is an example |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Stewie Date: 13 Jul 20 - 09:17 PM Sandman reflected above on what would be the result of black or brown people performing in blackface. The majority of Mudcatters would probably be unaware of the cult New Zealand comedy series, 'Seven Periods with Mr Gormsby', that was aired on NZ and Australian television some 14 years ago. The penultimate episode of the first series was entitled 'Coon Tunes' and featured a version of 'Uncle Ned' performed at the school concert. Here is a thoughtful commentary on the episode and the series: 2005 article in The Age Here is youtube clip of the concert scene: Old Matua Ned I would be interested in comments on The Age article's analysis of comedy in the context of this thread and current thinking. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jul 20 - 04:53 PM Bonz - guess what.. folks can be responsible and considerate, and still have bags of fun... ..unless you're the kind of bloke with a kink for selfish harmful to other people fun...??? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 13 Jul 20 - 04:27 PM I thought morris was supposed to be fun!! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jul 20 - 02:14 PM Howard - absolutely.. But Morris needs to be honest and transparent, not evasive and in denial... 'Inclusive' will be a bonus... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Jul 20 - 01:58 PM PFR, I think we are dancing on the head of a pin. We are both agreed that morris has to change. Whether or not it is racist, too many people are offended by it and trying to explain it is no longer sufficient. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jul 20 - 11:31 AM "That doesn't make the morris itself racist" Apart from your keen compulsion to deny it, I don't recall anyone actually claiming that morris is intrinsically racist, in this thread...??? Though, more learned folkies than me have pointed out far too plausible factors that can link certain blackface morris 'tradition's to historic and present racism... ..and.. constant repeated self defensive denial itself does tend to raise suspicions that might not otherwise have occurred... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM Morris dancers come from all walks of life, and it is to be expected that you will find a wide range of views amongst them. I don't doubt that includes some who are racist, it's a statistical probability. That doesn't make the morris itself racist. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Jul 20 - 09:09 AM Howard - No racism in morris...??? you are asking us to suspend disbelief too far.... Pull t'other one...!!! Most of us are over 60, and have spent at least four of those decades enjoying/enduring convivial social situations and informal conversation with our fellow provincial small town 'white' British public... Even our 'liberal' mates have after a few pints sometimes surprisingly expressed their most dodgy misconceptions and ingrained negative attitudes regarding race issues... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 13 Jul 20 - 05:16 AM My point is about context. A morris dancer putting on kit and make-up is preparing for a performance, no less than an actor. In the examples I gave, people can see from the context that the purpose of blacking up is not racist, so no offence is taken. With morris, despite this being a clear enough context with nothing else in it to suggest any caricaturing of black people, the presumption seems to be that blacking up is racist and is offensive. Perhaps this is because morris is an unfamiliar context to most people. The reality is that this interpretation appears to be resistant to any explanation, so (as I conceded earlier) this move is probably necessary. It is the path of least resistance, but I refute the suggestion that it is because morris contains "problematic attitudes". |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jul 20 - 04:23 AM yes it.does make sense. what happens if a black or brown morris dancer uses a colour to disguise his or her face? i think it is rather unfortunate that there are not more black brown or half caste morrisdancers, if there were this might not be a problem at all. morris dancing tends to be a white persons hobby at the moment more non white people doing it and disguising up would be interesting, a much easier way to defeat racism , |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Jul 20 - 06:03 PM Howard, you surprise me! A coal miner and a chimney sweep do not black up, they become black because of their work, no choice. Anyone acting as such in a play would be just that, acting, with a very valid reason for using greasepaint. Similarly the commando is trying to avoid detection at night and the disguise is very necessary. No comparison at all. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jul 20 - 04:50 PM "It's only a problematic attitude if you believe that blacking up for any purpose is totally unacceptable in all circumstances. " err... no... does that really make sense...????? Surely you realise this problem is more complex than how you seem to want to see it, or rationalise it away... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 12 Jul 20 - 04:39 PM Exactly |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 12 Jul 20 - 04:31 PM It's only a problematic attitude if you believe that blacking up for any purpose is totally unacceptable in all circumstances. Obviously it is now unacceptable for a white a Tory to blak up to play a a black person. But how about playing a coal miner, or a chimney sweep, or a commando? If they are acceptable, why not a morris dancer? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jul 20 - 04:05 PM "The reason this has become so contentious is that its supporters genuinely believe that the tradition does not have racist origins and cannot understand why people cannot see that they are not caricaturing black people." Even if as many are as completely innocent as you describe, such extensive naive blissful lack of awareness would still make them essentially a significant factor in perpetuating problematic attitudes...??? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: RTim Date: 12 Jul 20 - 03:34 PM I would like to add something to Howard's post below...... “Jingle Bells” is a classic song sung at Christmas time, but it didn't start out that way. First published in 1857, it was written by James Lord Pierpont, to be sung on Thanksgiving — not Christmas. There is some question as to where it was written — Massachusetts and Georgia both are plausible. Medford, Mass., where sleigh races were popular in the 1800s, claims itself as the birthplace of the song. There is a plaque at 19 High Street, the site of the former Simpson Tavern, where Pierpont was said to have penned the ditty in 1850. The original title of the song was “One Horse Open Sleigh,” but that was changed to “Jingle Bells, or the One Horse Open Sleigh” when it was reprinted in 1859. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: RTim Date: 12 Jul 20 - 03:20 PM Although some historical writings suggest early Morris teams "Blacked Up" - until the no Cotswold or North West Morris teams did so (except Bacup Coconut Dancers....). That is still true today. Border Morris (that collected on the Welsh Borders) was so named by E.C.Cawte in 1963, and before then there were only 13 Border Dances collected. In some cases it was called locally "Niggering". In the early 1970's two teams led the trends - Silurian Morris and the joint teams led by John Kirkpatrick - The Shropshire Bedlams (Male) and Martha Rhoden's Tuppenny Dish (Female) - began dancing - Both the Men's teams Blacked Up. This started a trend and there was an explosion all over the UK of Border Morris teams..mostly copying the costume of two male teams above...of Black Faces and Rag Jackets...Even though not all the earlier teams had this costume. It was claimed that is was essential to wear a Disguise to dance, hence the Black face...generally done by using Burnt Cork. Eventually, many teams started using Black (pancake) Make up. This is how we got to where we are today. Although a large percentage of teams have moved away from Black..and are now using other colours and Masks (for example - the Shropshire Bedlams now wear Masks) Opponents of Blacking Up suggest Now is the time to find a different form of Disguise. Tim Radford (Sorry if this has been fully covered before on this thread) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 12 Jul 20 - 03:11 PM It is a feature of Border morris and Molly, both of which are largely modern inventions reconstructed from a few fragments. Nevertheless, so far as I am aware, blacking up and other elements of the costume are based on the original traditions. Some claim this came from Minstrelsy. Minstrelsy was a huge part of popular culture for well over a hundred years and its impact is still felt today (how many people are aware that "Jingle Bells" was a minstrel song?). Minstrel tunes found their way into traditional music, including Cotswold morris. What I find interesting is that despite minstrelsy's massive popularity blacking up is not found more widely. If it was derived from minstrelsy surely it would be more widespread? What seems more likely to me is that elements of minstrelsy attached themselves most readily to those traditions where blacking up was already a feature. The reason this has become so contentious is that its supporters genuinely believe that the tradition does not have racist origins and cannot understand why people cannot see that they are not caricaturing black people. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM Perhaps some discussion of what exactly Blackface Morris consists of might help to clarify. I have only ever danced Cotswold and honestly can't remember a team ever wearing blackface, except some very new teams. I have seen many Northwest teams but not for a few years so am not sure if any of them used bf or even some other colour. I know some modern teams, women's teams and mixed teams, who use it or some form of colouring. Which tradition/teams claim to use it as 'traditional'? Bacup is one-off, and I don't think any revival teams attempt to imitate. Ploughlads on Plough Monday certainly used it mainly as disguise because if you turned them away they were said to plough up your lawn. But there is some ambivalence here as some of them certainly sang Minstrel songs in the mid nineteenth century. Perhaps those in the know can enlighten us to who it is that persists in using it, and how their usage relates to tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jul 20 - 11:28 AM "It won't have any effect at all on combating racism" .. not necessarily... Baby steps are better than none at all.. If this wider debate can influence just a few innately conservative old folkies to question their lifelong attitudes to race issues, then it would at least count as some small increment of progress...??? Obviously it's too late for a lot of 'em to give a sh!t about BLM.. [as a number of stubbornly dismissive, and outright antagonistic, posts in this thread demonstrate..]... But there may be some positive hope for more enlightened attitudes informing the next generation of enthusiastic morris practitioners... Who knows, Blackface Morris could still have an acceptable performance place with a future better informed and sensibly tolerant audience...???????? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 12 Jul 20 - 11:12 AM 'but it won't make a scrap of difference in the real world' It will make a difference to the people who feel uneasy or mocked by seeing people blacked up. It may not change the overall picture of racism but it's a start. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 12 Jul 20 - 09:31 AM It won't have any effect at all on combating racism. As we've discussed at length, blacked-up morris isn't racist and neither are the majority of people who dance it. However compared with addressing real issues it's an easy win, and those who have been campaigning for it are no doubt congratulating themselves, but it won't make a scrap of difference in the real world. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM How effective will this be in combating racism?Time will tell If people are serious about combating racism, I would start with the uk police force, there was an interesting eye opening programme on radio 4 recently in which black brown and coloured policemen and women were talking about institutionalised racism in the uk police force, if we are to get to the root of the racism problem in the uk, in my opinion this would be a more appropriate place to start., especially in the context of the murder of G Floyd in America recently. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Jul 20 - 06:05 AM GUEST, please read the thread before posting. Your misgivings are fully explained and dealt with. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST Date: 11 Jul 20 - 05:20 PM Because racists have tried to hijack Morris’s why are we dropping blacking up if it was done for whatever reasons it has become tradition very much like Notting hill carnival the people of that area celebrate their culture why can’t we celebrate our culture . Obviously we have not started on mumming yet and then there is regional carols who are us tradionlists / folkies going to upset there. Next you will be telling me I can’t play Irish tunes on my English concertina . The world is a big place and I have done a fair bit of travelling I have learnt loads from people I have met and hopefully they have learnt from me |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 11 Jul 20 - 05:11 PM Yes, just so long as black morris dancers don't white-up!!! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 11 Jul 20 - 04:30 PM May I say I'm offended at the suggestion that Morris Dancers green-up instead of black-up. This is grossly insensitive to us True Gaels and our national vegetable of cabbage, our official uniform of Leprechaun suits and our ancient custom of wetting the shamrock in green beer on our national saint's day. St. Patrick himself was of course traditionally represented in green. :) Seriously though, Morris dancing will continue as entertaining as ever whatever the facial make-up. Keep the show going. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:33 PM Actually one more, if you don't mind: Though the Trump antics are what drew the most attention to yesterday's Supreme Court decisions, this one in the long run is far more substantial: Supreme Court says much of eastern Oklahoma remains Indian land The Supreme Court said Thursday that a large swath of eastern Oklahoma remains an American Indian reservation, a decision with potential implications for nearly 2?million residents and one of the most significant victories for tribal rights in years. Now back to Morris. Red face or black face would be fraught here in the US. Blue face seems most appropriate in the UK, but I imagine not everyone is in love with woad. Is it a throwback to the Picts? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:49 PM I bought plex app for my android tablet a few years ago, but it looked like too much faffin about.. They still send me emails trying to sell me updated services.. [which I don't bother reading...] So.. I'm a lefty who still enjoys old cowboy movies full of stock racial stereotype characters.. Who wants to make something of it then... I gave up trying to encourage folks not to PM me, about 35 messages ago.. I do reluctantly check now at least once a week... Btw.. the 1980s socialist skinhead band, "The Redskins" might now have a bit of a PR problem... END OF THREAD HIJACK... |
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