'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895

Subject: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 09:31 PM

For those who share my interest, examples of “hillbilly” blues musicians who were born before 1895:

Shelly Lee Alley
Bert Bilbro
Charlie Bowman
Samantha Bumgarner
Dick Burnett
Nora Carpenter
John Carson
Warner Carver
Cleve Chaffin
Ben Christian
Tom Darby
Ollie Debrow
Van Edwards
Tom Freeman
Ollie Gilbert
Banmon Grayson
Clarence Greene
Roy Harvey
John Hatcher
Marvin Head
Louise Henson
Charlie Higgins
Theophilus Hoskins
Molly Jackson
Ben Jarrell
Earl Johnson
Dallas Jones
Frank Kamplain
Stella Kimble
Bert Layne
Margaret Lillie
Jimmy Long
Bascom Lunsford
Dave Macon
Palmer McAbee
Sam McGee
Tyler Meeks
David Miller
Sam Moore
Jess Morris
Oscar Mosley
Willie Narmour
Preston Nester
Tex Owens
Charlie Poole
Riley Puckett
Ike Reaves
Pender Rector
Henry Reed
Carson Robison
Posey Rorer
Billy Smythe
Manco Sneed
Pete Steele
Bunt Stephens
Ernest Stoneman
Cleve Sutphin
Gid Tanner
Jimmie Tarlton
Ben Tinnon
Marion Underwood
George Walburn
Wade Ward
Henry Whitter
George Wise
Dacosta Woltz
Jess Young

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: cnd
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 09:46 PM

That's quite a list!

Most people in my experience define hillbilly music as the music that pre-dated modern country and had more elements of bluegrass/folk music. Usually the music by definition was performed before the 1950s, but some musicians continued to have success in the sort of hinterland between modern country and bluegrass after that time.

Is that the definition you're using? Any criteria you use for selecting musicians?

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 10:42 PM

Mine are similar to Tony Russell's.

These people were all from south of Pennsylvania (not that they'd automatically have to be to my way of thinking, but in practice these folks were) and pursued pre-Monroe-meets-Scruggs style "hillbilly" music. Only a few of them were big on "western" music as distinct from "hillbilly," even. An inclusion that might surprise Tony is Billy Smythe, but he sang on a hillbilly show and had a special interest in writing blues songs.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 04:16 AM

Can you clarify your definition please. Why do you include the word Blues?

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 04:56 AM

And what is the significance of the year 1895?

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: cnd
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:35 PM

I recognize and agree with several of the names from your list in terms of hillbilly artists: Samantha Bumgarner, "Fiddlin' John" Carson, Banmon Grayson (of Grayson and Whitter), Ben Jarrell (did you mean Tommy Jarrell?), Bascom Lunsford, Dave Macon, Sam McGee (of Brownie & McGee), Charlie Poole, Riley Puckett (of the Skillet Lickers), Carson Robison, Pete Steele, Ernest Stoneman (the Stoneman Family and, briefly, The Bluegrass Champs), Gid Tanner, Jimmie Tarlton (of Darby and Tarlton), Wade Ward, and Henry Whitter.

I noticed a few people missing from this list: A. P. Carter (1891) and other members of the Carter family, along with Bradley Kincaid (1895). Could this be where the "blues" part of the name comes in?

Notably the Monroe Brothers (1901 - Birch, 1903 - Charlie, and 1911 - Bill), the Morris Brothers (1916 - Zeke, and 1919 - Wiley), "Fiddlin'" Steve Ledford (1906), Dorsey Dixon (1897, of the Dixon Brothers), J. E. Mainer (1898, primarily with Mainer's Mountaineers), the Delmore Brothers (1908 - Alton, 1916 - Rabon), the Carlisle Brothers (1903 - Cliff, 1908 - Bill), Texas Jim Robertson (1909), Roy Acuff (1903), and the Blue Sky Boys (1919 - Earl Bolick, 1917 - Bill Bolick) all miss the 1895 gap, but many of the tunes these groups performed I think would fit. Because of this, I would also like an explanation of the 1895 date.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 04:42 AM

"Why do you include the word Blues?" That's what that list is about, for those who share my interest. They all performed blues material.

"And what is the significance of the year 1895?" It's a cutoff to get early-born people, for those who share my interest in the early "hillbilly" artists who took up blues. We know songs similar to "Poor Boy, Long Ways From Home" were around in about 1900, so people Samantha Bumgarner's or Tom Darby's age generally could remember how that early blues was performed roughly then better than a Bill Monroe could. Even Charlie Monroe could better than Bill, judging from Charlie's "Red Rocking Chair."

The great majority of people above were pre-Jimmie-Rodgers in style, basically (which is just one issue); almost everyone who played on Rodgers' records or emulated him was born 1897 and later, and he was quite an original as far as blues goes -- other than liking to adopt chunks of idiomatic 1910s blues lyrics.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 04:49 AM

Ben Jarrell was Tommy Jarrell's dad. A.P. Carter I overlooked for no good reason.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 05:15 AM

One way to look at the years would be that there was an industry of sheet music of partly or wholly 12-bar "Blues" songs that only started up in 1912. So if someone turned 18 or older in 1912, which all those people did, and they were Southerners, which they were, they'd generally had a chance to hear folk blues before 1912. As Sam McGee e.g. recalled he did. Pete Steele was about 21 in 1912, Tom Darby was about 22, Bert Bilbro was about 23, etc.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 05:20 AM

Rather than just making lists of names - why not actually look at some of the blues that these people actually recorded? In the 1920's and '30's there were a goodly number of white blues recordings (not all by people who were born before 1895), so why not talk about these. You could look at 'K.C. Blues', 'Worried Blues' & 'Cannon Ball Blues' by Frank Hutchison, 'Mistreated Blues' by the Carolina Buddies, 'Ash Can Blues', Chicken Roost Blues' & 'Tom Cat Blues' by Cliff Carlisle, 'Lonesome Weary Blues' by Roy Harvey & Leonard Copeland. Then there is Clayton McMichen's 'Prohibition Blues' or Larry Henley's 'Matchbox Blues'. The list just goes on and on.
'Matchbox Blues' seems to be a straight copy from Blind Lemon Jefferson, but many white blues cannot be so easily traced. So, I repeat, why not look into the blues themselves, rather than just listing the names of singers and musicians (some of whom seem to have had very little to do with the blues.)

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 06:48 AM

So what this appears to be is just a list of people from a certain era who recorded material using particular chord sequences which were also used by blues singers.

Most interesting.

Wake me up when it's all over and the big picture starts.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,cnd
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 07:50 AM

GUEST, no need to be churlish. Just cause you don't find it interesting doesn't mean others don't.

Joseph, for whatever reason I initially fixated on hillbilly and less on blues; now, your explanation makes sense.

Would you care to name some particularly bkues-like songs from these artists? Charlie Poole and a few others in particular are known primarily for their "hillbilly" music rather than their blues music.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 08:23 AM

If you want to hear some Charlie Poole 'blues' then you could try listening to 'If the River was Whiskey' or 'Leaving Home'. The first is a version of 'Hesitation Blues', the second is a version of 'Frankie & Johnny'.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Brad Sondahl
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 10:06 AM

I'm a fan of both old-time and blues idioms. I think a lot of the "blues" recorded by hillbilly musicians reflected more an attempt to ride on the coattails of the popularity of blues and don't sound authentic to blues buffs. Although Blind Lemon Jefferson's records and tours influenced the Carters to take his tune from One Kind Favor for "Today has been a lonesome day (or whatever it's called)."   It think it's crucial as Joseph pointed out, to separate out the music before Jimmy Rodgers and after, as lots of folks put "Blue" in their titles and the giveaway yodels after that success... I don't know of any black blues recordings that incorporated yodeling but I guess that would be another topic.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 12:09 PM

My apologies the "churlish" guest above was me.

cnd, I am pretty sure that if you take a look at You Tube you would be able to find some of what you are looking for. Alternatively you could try finding a copy of the double CD issued on the Columbia Roots 'n' Blues series 472886 2 titled "White Country Blues (1926-1938)",48 tracks including the two referred to by Mike Yates above. Unfortunately the performer's dates of birth are not shown but hopefully that won't spoil things.

A similar double CD was issued in the UK on the Indigo label with 50 tracks "Drunk & Nutty - Hillbillies Foolin' With the Blues". Without checking I seem to remember that many of the tracks appear on both labels

Re black musicians yodelling, not very common but it did happen. There was much more crossing over of styles and "borrowing" than we once believed. Try Howling Wolf's "Smokestack Lightning". And of course Jimmy Rogers wasn't the first.

Regarding Blind Lemon and One Kind Favour. Was he the first to use that tune? I have heard the song "Careless Love" sung to this tune.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 06:17 PM

The comment about chord progressions missed the point: it was common before 1920 for white blues musicians to learn songs, stanzas, melodies from black blues musicians. Sam McGee recalled that he was in about 1910, e.g. Very often we have no recordings of the same songs by black blues musicians. So even if you're only interested in black musicians (which is not true of me), we can learn a lot about early black blues from people like John Carson.

Here are some of the recordings of interest:

Bert Bilbro "Mohana Blues"
Samantha Bumgarner "The Worried Blues"
Dick Burnett "Curley-Headed Woman"
John Carson "Tom Watson Special," "Goin' Where The Climate Suits My Clothes"
Warner Carver "Sisco Harmonica Blues"
Cleve Chaffin "C & O Whistle" by the Fruit Jar Guzzlers
Tom Darby "Heavy Hearted Blues," "Goin' Down That Lonesome Frisco Line"
Van Edwards "Yodeling Blues" by the Buck Mt. Band
Ollie Gilbert "Good Mornin' Blues"
Banmon Grayson "Going Down The Lee Highway"
Roy Harvey "Steamboat Man," "Railroad Blues"
John Hatcher "Tishomingo County Blues"
Louise Henson "I'm A Stranger Here"
Molly Jackson "I Got Up This Morning, Put My Clothes On Wrong"
Earl Johnson "Wire Grass Drag"
Jimmy Long "Doggone Blues"
Bascom Lunsford "Hesitation Blues"
Dave Macon "Hill Billie Blues," "I've Got The Mourning Blues"
Palmer McAbee "Lost Boy Blues"
Sam McGee "Railroad Blues"
David Miller "Way Down In Jail On My Knees," "Jailhouse Rag"
Sam Moore "Chain Gang Blues"
Willie Narmour "Carroll County Blues"
Tex Owens "Train Whistle Blues"
Charlie Poole "If The River Was Whiskey"
Riley Puckett "K.C. Railroad"
Ike Reaves "Hesitation Blues"
Posey Rorer “The Cat's Got The Measles And The Dog's Got The Whooping Cough” by Walter Smith
Manco Sneed "Florida Blues"
Pete Steele "The Weary Blues," "Payday At Coal Creek"
Bunt Stephens "Louisburg Blues," "Left In The Dark Blues"
Cleve Sutphin "Lonesome Road Blues"
Jimmie Tarlton "Way Down In Florida On A Hog," "Put-Together Blues"
Ben Tinnon "Plow Boy Hop" by the Grinnel Giggers
Marion Underwood "All Night Long" by Byrd Moore
George Walburn "Dixie Flyer"
Wade Ward "Chilly Winds"
Henry Whitter "Lonesome Road Blues"
Jess Young "The Old K-C"

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 09:17 PM

If you are looking for collections that contain many of the above-mentioned recordings, there is the excellent 'White Country Blues' referred to above. Others that are worth seeking out include:

'Old-Time Mountain Blues' County CO-CD-3528
'Hillbilly Blues 1928-1946' Fremeaux & Associes FA 065 [double CD set]
'Prayers from Hell: White Gospel & Sinners Blues 1927-1940' Trikont US-0267
'Mountain Blues: Blues, Ballads & String Bands 1927-1938' JSP7740 [4-CD set]
'Worried Blues' JSP7743 [4-CD set that has complete output of Frank Hutchison and Kelly Harrell                                                                                                                                                      
et alia].

Tony Russell's seminal Studio Vista booklet 'Blacks, Whites and Blues' has been reissued with others essays from the same press in 'Yonder Come the Blues' Cambridge Uni Press

Lawrence Cohn's 'Nothing But the Blues' Abbeville Press includes an excellent essay by Charles Wolfe: 'A Lighter Shade of Blue: White Country Blues'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 09:59 PM

When it comes to white country blues, these are among my favourites:

Johnson City Blues
Cocaine
Down South Blues
Swanno Mountain

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 01:15 AM

"Swanno Mountain" -- relative of "Spike Driver Blues" by John Hurt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owCWOclu_lI

Subject: RE: 'Hillbilly' blues born before 1895
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:36 AM

Tony Russell edited a series of weekly magazines/CDs under the title 'The Blues Collection'. Issue number 70 was titled 'Hillbilly Blues' (Orbis publishers BLU NC 070) and contains 20 tracks of 'white blues'. No date given, but the set came out at least twenty years ago.