Songwriting skills: a new concept

Subject: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

Well several.
1) Vu Ja De - the effect of seeing the familiar with fresh eyes. - when in doubt, seize the vu ja de

2) Procrastination (divergence) - if the project is left open/unfinished for long enough, new ideas and thoughts come to mind. This is how I did a lot (not all) of my songs. I had an enveope or book with the (provisional) title encircled in the centre, with related words/phrases around it and more around them. Apparently we close our minds as the project finishes.

3) Rationalisation (convergence) - at some time verses/chorus can spring to mind and be written down, and inspected for scansion/rhythm, rhyme/better rhyme. After which the direction of the theme becomes clear and more text follows (ie 2)).

4) Fully Formed - Have you considered this may be a life long procrastination bursting out? It could be a project that has no theme only a goal, like writing a song that people would think was traditional. Then one day Vu Ja De happens and the collected knowledge on the theme presented comes pouring out.

Adam Grant on original thinkers at TED.com has a few insights one of which is that there is a sweet spot of procrastination that produces the most original and successful ideas. Too little and the result is predictable, too much and it never gets done. And it is the diversionary tactics that give us time and data and unconscious cogitation that feeds the creative process. When in doubt, seize the vu ja de

TED radio Hour (BBC.co.uk) (54 mins) which triggered my thoughts on the above. Some of it may be available in the USA at npr.org>originals ... how to spot one (20 mins). I can't find the other bits of it.

And throw in the Zeigarnik Effect that postulates we recall unfinished tasks better than completed ones.

Also In the mid of a master procrastinator Tim Urban on TED.com

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 11:45 AM

I've only written one set of lyrics, new words to 'Rocking My Baby to Sleep.' Anger was what drove me - I found the original lyrics brainless and destructive. I think a month passed between the time I started and the time I polished the last curlicue.

I also discovered the true usefulness of a rhyming dictionary for the first time. I'd heard of it, but never used it.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 01:53 PM

Let me see.......

to 1: There is the song which reached a point where the story could take a number of routes to the finish, so I decided to sleep on it, as one does. 27 years later I found the scrap of paper with the first few verses, could remember nothing about what the original story was and where it was supposed to go! So I slept on it again but this time, whilst I slept a verse occurred to me and so I was finally able to finish the song!

to 3: There are a couple of songs which resulted from seeing films. In the first case a verse came into my head whilst I was working. The problem was, this verse was in the middle of the song so I had to write in both directions!
The other song hit me on the way home from the cinema.

I started off writing pseudo-traditional songs but that slowly came to a halt after I left the UK. $0 years later I'm still getting around to premiering some of those songs from way back when even though my audience may not fully grasp what's going on!

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 10:53 AM

Good for you, Lynn. The world needs more good songs.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 03:42 AM

Sleeping on the problem is as powerful as procrastination, and in a way is a form of procrastination. If you have garnered 27 years worth of data, sleep will sieve for relevance and anything that pops out in the first few hours of waking is certain to have been planted during sleep. Though sometimes an event/object can trigger ideas after that during the day.

Anger is (can be) good motivation for creativity. It gives you a reason to "do". It focuses on the direction. But (IMHO) has a sweet spot just like procrastination.

Having said that, I haven't written more than one song in 20 years. I think my sweet spot is now a vanishing point!

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 11:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5QFj7mYSLc

14 minute narrative of the long evolution of a song,
from Andy Partridge,
one of the UK's finest Beatles/Beach Boys influenced songwriters.

The song "Easter Theatre"

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 11 Jul 20 - 01:05 PM

Bear in mind that most of us have to deal with things like daytime jobs, changes of job,moving house or even changing towns or countries. this means that finishing a song you decided to 'sleep on' is way, way down any list of priorities

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Jul 20 - 06:18 PM

Mr. Pink

As usual, thee and me .... falls somewhere inbetween.

You appear commercial ... I find all music public the first time performed.

Sincerly,
Gargoyle

. True lyrics spring from one's soul...and cannot be contained

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 20 - 06:19 AM

Having a love of words and poetry helps, plus understanding chord progressions and music theory.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: mg
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 12:55 AM

i think the very most important component for me is a very strict rhythm with no awkward positioning of syllables etc.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: BobKnight
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM

Just do it - and the more you do it, the better you should get. Avoid cliches and trying to get too many words into a line. Sometimes words can be missed out without changing the meaning of the line.

Most people have their "song" and by that I mean a melody they favour which appears time and time again in their songs. Try to get away from it occasionally. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Jul 20 - 08:11 AM

Avoid cliches

Vu Ja De can be applied to cliches. Which then can be the launching pad for the song. & FWIW cliches are the stock in trade for comedy, because it promulgates brevity and humour doesn't ride well on wordiness. Unless the punchline is - a thesaurus.

I have long postulated that rhyme is the punctuation of lyrics & poetry. I hear a lot about poetry slams and modern poetry and there being no need for rhyme. Rhyme isn't essential, but you have to work a whole lot harder on the words, the scansion and the music without it.

Anglo-Saxon poetry did not use rhyme, but was strong on rhythm and story-telling.

A refused rhyme can be effective as a humerous device.

Cole Porter rejoiced in enjambed rhyme, it helps the words flow smoothly.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:53 AM

I don't remember who it was who said that poetry without rhyme is like playing tennis without a net.

I like rhyme, especially internally and especially unexpected ones. When I'm listening to someone sing, in my mind I always finish the rhyme and am inordinately pleased when it is an unexpected one.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 06:20 AM

As a 'filker' (writer of parodies, short one-offs, Fantasy & SF based, etc.) I often find hymn tunes very useful.
If I've got a partial song, with at least one verse, I try to set it to a hymn tune (almost 60 years in a church choir means I know a lot of them). That doesn't mean that the final song will use the hymn tune, but it does mean that as I add verses I have a quick mental check for rhythm and scansion by comparing the 'new' verse to the hymn tune. If it scans then I know the scansion also matches the 'proto' verse.
If a subsequent verse has wording which must change the scansion, I can see whether to do so by splitting/slurring a note, or by going back and re-writing the proto verse.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:53 AM

Most people have their "song" and by that I mean a melody they favour which appears time and time again in their songs. Try to get away from it occasionally. Good luck.
this can be avoided if you use different chord progressions. ihave just wriiten a song about swifts which starts off on the dominant chord but sounds to start minorish because it uses root seventhand fifth of dominant chord as its 3 starting notes, musical knowledge can help plus the ability to play an instrument.
i have wriiten a number of songs and tunes and a few people have remarked on them in a complimentarey way, but the head mod of this forum isnt having them EVER

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:08 AM

I try to set it to a hymn tune - implying the tune may change.

I first encountered this wheeze when I read "How to be a Succe$$ful Songwriter"**. Chapters written by successful songwriters. All I remember is Neil Sedaka, and the Sherman Brothers, but some of the songs credited were legendary (eg Midnight Train to Georgia). And the trick came up in several chapters, it was to write the words to a successful song, then write a tune to those words. It works the other way around too.

What you get is a familiar structure. You can see a structure permeating songs from any given era. Fashion?

**funny that but it looks right, yet doesn't mention the names I remember! Or the spelling or the aspect ratio of the book. Memory - eh? Out of print now, but used ones at inflated prices.

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:22 AM

MR RED,very interesting

Subject: RE: Songwriting skills: a new concept
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:08 PM

I don't write a sing regularly, When I do, I explore everything I can about the subject in the way I would write an article or essay. Then I let certain words dictate was sings and work for fresh rhymes. I try fo interior rhymes, irregular stanzas to get away from the sing-song iambic pentameter or other usual models. I work for specificity and attempt not to employ footnotes allowing the song to speak for itself. I attempt to follow the Guthrie model saying a lot in a few words (like Hammingway). I try to very choruses from verses in music and mood. I work for consistency in the voice. If it's an "I" song, I'll stick with that. I try to visualize for whom the song is to be sung.

If you really want to get into it, Sheila Davis's books, especially her Workbook is the most helpful I've found although the orientation is toward writing commercial songs. The other useful books are Jim Webb's book and Molly Leikin's "How To Write A Hit Song".