This land is WHOSE land?

Subject: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 09:43 AM

Out of interest, did anyone every question Guthrie on his famous 'This land is your land' song?

Or, did anyone write a politically (more) correct version, on the basis that 'this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land, this land was stole for you and me'...?

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 09:50 AM

I think the aim of the author was to promote a little National pride into the listeners, something which is required today more than ever before.
Have a a bit of pride in your country and its heros.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 09:55 AM

True, and fair enough. But don't you see any connection between Black Lives Matter and (not that there is such a campaign!) Red Lives Matter?

You can't have pride in your heritage if you ignore bits of it!

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 09:58 AM

That is exactly why I never liked this ode to manifest destiny.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:07 AM

Thanks to the British folks for bringing this up.
You do realize the song is a protest song, and a couple of the verses were pretty clear on that topic?
The underlying feeling is that this land is ALL of our (Americans) land, and we should remember that.

These verses are left our of some versions. Thank goodness Pete Seeger sang them when he performed at Obama's inauguration.

As I went walking I saw a sign there,
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing.
That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:11 AM

Like it or loathe it the US is a new nation created by immigrants. these immigrants were in the most part forging new lives for themselves and needed songs to bond them together....sure there were casualties, but there will always be casualties in any society. A great number of Gaels from my country were forced away from their homes and helped to build you new nation....get a grip and look forward Guthrie was positive, not negative.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:23 AM

Okay, but not sure that those 'missing' verses refer to the people who a mere century before were being slaughtered like animals.

There was a big hole in 'protest' songs - in the States, it was always the 'Indian' people, and sometimes the black ones. In the UK, it was often the victims of this country's imperialism, of whatever colour. And of course in both cultures, women's interests have only crept in recently!

We are all capable of being criticised, however noble our intentions are - Woody Guthrie included. But this is not an attack on Guthrie, or US protest songs, just a plea for those that got left out.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:23 AM

Okay, Jeri made it into a music thread instead of a fighting thread, so it's back up top.

Keep it a music thread or it's going back down to the BS again.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:44 AM

I never looked at those a missing verses. I sang them every time I sang the song. Still do.

Don

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 10:48 AM

Don't understand this music vs BS business (not being a regular round here).

I have a point to make about a 'famous' protest song. Is that a 'musical' point, or, being a political point, relegated into BS (which I take it doesn't mean British Socialism)?

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:14 AM

If it is indeed a famous "Protest Song" then it is surely, by definition, impossible to separate the "Protest" from the "Song".

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,cnd
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

London Old Man, here at Mudcat we have 2 types of threads: those about music (above "the line") and thos about non-musical topics (below the line, also known as BS). Normally, a thread will be started intentionally as being one or the other (for example, BS threads will often be lists if jokes, political discussion, etc). However, if the tread or the discussion it generates is deemed to be not of a musical nature (due to either its content or the discussion it generates) it can be moved to the BS section. An important point here is that it's not necessarily your fault for starting the thread; it could have good intentions, but certain people can't seem to play nice, so it gets moved to BS because of that. It doesn't help that lately a number of threads masquerading as music posts have been started but generated by-and-large less-than-musical responses.

Here's an interesting link discussing Seeger's opinion in the song and much of what I think you're going for: https://theconversation.com/the-misguided-attacks-on-this-land-is-your-land-121169

From that article comes this additional stanza Seeger would sometimes add:

This land is your land, but it once was my land
    Before we sold you Manhattan Island
    You pushed my nation to the reservation,
    This land was stole by you from me.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Derriick
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

The verse quoted by cnd reminds me of a sketch in a tv comedy show,with Tracy Ulman and Lennie Henry.
It consisted of a TV interview with Chief Sitting Bull.
One of the questions was "What did your people call America before the
White man arrived.
The answer "Ours"

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:48 AM

I was at Resurrection City on The Poor Peoples Campaign in 1968 when Jimmy Collier asked Henry Crow Dog about the etiquette of singing this song. Pete Seeger, standing nearby was a little confounded by the question. He hadn't thought of the song in that respect.

Mar Ross

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:53 AM

When it becomes all about politics, it gets moved. If the discussion's related to the song, it stays above the line.
Stilly, I hadn't realized it was in BS, because GUESTs were posting.

This is a good article the Conversation - The misguided attacks on ‘This Land Is Your Land’

---

It was moved just as you posted, then moved back up after you posted. Odds are it will move once again. ---mudelf
I'll try to delete the political posts/fights fast enough. --another mod

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 12:57 PM

Are we talking about Guthrie's song or the abridged version by Seeger?
One bears no relationship to the other. Woody wrote a positive anthem to a new nation, Seeger used it to spread negativity and discord.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 01:32 PM

Here are the verses I know to be Woody's and they are the way I sing it. What are the verses Seeger did that were meant to be divisive.

This Land,

From the California, to the New York Island
From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I went walking that ribbon of highway
I saw above me that endless skyway
I saw below me that golden valley
This land was made for you and me

I've roamed and rambled, and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
All around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

When the sun comes shining as I was strolling
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling
The fog was lifting a voice came chanting
This land was made for you and me

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said "No trespassin'"
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

In the squares of the city - In the shadow of the steeple
Near the relief office - I see my people
And some are grumblin' and some are wonderin'
If this land's still made for you and me

Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me


Seeger added this verse:

    This land is your land, but it once was my land
    Before we sold you Manhattan Island
    You pushed my nation to the reservation,
    This land was stole by you from me.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 03:18 PM

I am bemused when people who are UK citizens and residents sing the song.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 03:48 PM

It was a revival thing...man.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 04:05 PM

This land is my land
It is not your land
If you don't get off
I'll blow your head off
I've got a shotgun
And it is loaded
This land was made for me alone

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 04:07 PM

This land is my land
get off my land
ooh arr ooh arr
ooh arr ooh arr...


Rural British version...

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 05:13 PM

It would be a mistake to divide Americans into categories of white, Black, and Native American, and to put all the blame on whites. Until 1850, white Americans were primarily Protestants from the British Isles, with some French areas. The Manifest Destiny was carried out mostly by white Americans of British descent. The Irish started arriving in the 1820s, Germans in the 1870s, and Italians in the 1890s - and Irish, Germans, and especially Italians were despised and impoverished minorities until maybe 1950.

Woody wasn't singing for the wealthy and powerful white people who believed that conquest of the Americas was their Manifest Destiny. He sang for the working people, the immigrants who came later and had to submit to domination of the wealthy class. His song was for the working people of all ethnicities, not the wealthy.

Akenaton writes: Are we talking about Guthrie's song or the abridged version by Seeger?
One bears no relationship to the other. Woody wrote a positive anthem to a new nation, Seeger used it to spread negativity and discord.

Can't say I know what you're talking about, Ake. I did find one recording where Pete sang the three "travelogue" verses made popular by Peter, Paul and Mary and the Weavers and published in school songbooks; but mostly Pete sang all the verses that Woody wrote - including the so-called "Communist" verses.

The song is an anthem of the working class, not an homage to Manifest Destiny.

-Joe-

There's a thorough article on the song in Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 07:14 PM

One throwaway line at 1:45 - This land was my land.
JibJab.com "This Land!"

North America, like Africa, a continent, not a people:

Woody Guthrie grew up in Comanche territory but the 'tribe' is an American federal government/European construct.

The 'Last Chief of the Comanches,' Quanah Parker (1845 – 1911) died just one year before Woody was born. Quanah's mother was Cynthia Ann Parker (Narua)(1827 – 1871).

Cynthia Ann's family, young and old, was murdered and she was taken captive by a band of Quanah's tribe in the 1830s. It was an ancient & brutal tradition that had nothing to do with the arrival of Europeans save for the previous (re)introduction of Equus ferus by the Spanish & Portuguese.

Great-grandfather William Edward “Pap” Guthrie (1809 – 1891) moved the Guthrie family to the Territories in the 1840s at the very peak of the culture clash.

S. C. Gwynne's Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, 2011 is the best read you'll find on the particulars.

TL/DR: By Comanche 'old ways' – Might Makes Right. Whining about it is for losers.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 11:32 PM

The very first post in this thread asked,

"Out of interest, did anyone every question Guthrie on his famous 'This land is your land' song?

"Or, did anyone write a politically (more) correct version, on the basis that 'this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land, this land was stole for you and me'...?"

And the answer yes, there are several versions out there that make that point. You can probably find some of them in the "Related threads" that are linked on this page.

It may be worth pointing out the Guthrie wrote the song as a reply to God Bless America.

The funny thing about the "private property" and "relief office" stanzas is the Guthrie himself didn't always sing them. When I first learned about those verses, I had a listen to my Guthrie CDs, and was surprised to find he didn't sing them on those recordings. So it's not necessarily the case that later singers deliberately omitted those stanzas – it may be that they learned the song from recordings where Guthrie didn't include them.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:23 AM

Topical political protest songs,
may only be performed a few times in a short time period.
Or they might become celebrated standard repertoire like this one has..

But it's best to consider this kind of song as a fluid work in progress;
occasionally/frequently needing essential revision,
as time goes by and circumstances change...

If I think back to protest songs our band wrote when we were immature teenagers in the late 1970s,
They'd need to be completely rewritten to be relevant now.

I'd feel a right pillock if they'd become famous records,
and audiences demanded I still sing the exact version they first took to their hearts..

.. just saying...

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM

Thanks for the information. Didn't realise the above-the-line/below-the-line split, so I will observe it in future. Apologies.

Pete Seeger a communist? Lummy, which he had been!

And as regards protest songs which were wrong when they were penned and sung, the answer is no, we shouldn't sing them any more, except as curios from a different age. A bit like uprooting statues and moving them to museums, where they can be labelled 'this is the sort of man (usually a man) who did this, this and this, and was once revered; now we remember him in order not to make the same mistakes again.

Thanks for the 'Seeger' additional words to 'This land'. Good to know that others had similar reservations!

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: London OldMan
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 05:00 AM

Just read the 'conversation' link provided by guest.cnd. Very interesting, thanks, and enlightening on many levels, and makes me feel better about the song, Guthrie, et al - as if they're bothered! (Sorry, there should be an emoji for 'taking the piss out of oneself').


If anyone here hasn't, well worth a read.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:01 AM

The song has a nice tune and therefore nice to listen to.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: gillymor
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:18 AM

Woody borrowed it from The Carter Family's "Little Darling Pal of Mine" and who knows where A.P. Carter got it from.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:03 AM

This land is moi land
get orf moi land

Corrected it for you, pfr! ;-)

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:10 AM

The way I heard it (ca1969) was,

I got a shotgun,
And you ain't got one....

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:11 AM

Is that Wolverhampton or Brum?

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:19 AM

Joe:

It would be a mistake to divide Americans into categories of white, Black, and Native American, and to put all the blame on whites. Until 1850, white Americans were primarily Protestants from the British Isles, with some French areas. The Manifest Destiny was carried out mostly by white Americans of British descent. The Irish started arriving in the 1820s, Germans in the 1870s, and Italians in the 1890s - and Irish, Germans, and especially Italians were despised and impoverished minorities until maybe 1950.

Got any sources to back that up? Being a Yook, rather than a Yank, I'm obviously more conversant with UK / European history than yours. But I was under the impression that there were significant Dutch (New York was New Amsterdam originally) & German communities long before you lot ever seceded from the Rightful Rule* of His Gracious Majesty Etcetera. I also thought the major Irish immigration began some 25 years later than your date (Potato Famine)?

* Joe knows I'm only teasing, but just in case anyone else doesn't! I'm curious (alright, I'm weird; no, not peculiar!) as well. Joe's statement doesn't quite fit my somewhat hazy knowledge. Therefore, I'm asking... ;-)

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

Raedwulf - as I'm a West Country lad, that's how I first typed it..

but I then wasted a crucial few minutes debating if it would only confuse,
or hand a distraction, to the mudcat pedant squad..

Otherwise I'd have beat Susan of DT to the post by 2 minutes...

..oh well...

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 01:06 PM

:-D

Butt! Yew shoed no buy now that the peasant quod kneads know ex-choose! ;-)

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:00 PM

This is not in my brain as a *protest* song but as a plain old folk song. Great Plains, of course.
What I don't like about this song is that this land wasn't made, at all, let alone for you or me.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:43 PM

Way down yonder in the Indian nation
I rode my pony on the reservation
In the Oklahoma Hills where I was born...

Big continent and eleven centuries of Euros, counting from the Pagan & Roman Catholic Norse. First Euro-Protestant anywhere was the 1517 German model. The colonials were already at 20+ human generations, and counting.

“Six Flags,” mostly open borders & frontiers:
Conquistadors c.1500
French Texas 1684–1689
Spanish Texas 1690–1821
Mexican Texas 1821–1836
Rep. of Texas 1836–1845
U.S. Statehood 1845–1860
Confederacy    1861–1865

Oklahoma:
Indian Territory 1834–1907
U.S. Territory   1890–1907
U.S. Statehood   1907

Those exquisitely Catholic Inquisitions formally ended with the Mexican Era; full separation of Church from State not until 1836. Both institutions might as well have come from the planet Neptune where Native American Pagans were concerned.

Bringing it back to music:
fwiw: For you shanty fans, that's also the end of institutional Catholic work psalmody worldwide (celeusma, saloma, salomar, chiourme &c) in the various armies, navies, prisons and labour camps.

Fwiw II: The end of the sovereign American Indian Territories brought out the Indian Intermezzo and Indianist movement in the Yank pop and classical music genre.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: mg
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 10:29 PM

lots of scandinavians came. I had never heard of catholic norse...do you count normans of france with them?

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:33 AM

mg, I think Phil is referring to Leif Erikson and his cronies, who had a settlement in Newfoundland 500 years before Columbus sailed the ocean blue. .

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM

Hi, Raedwulf - It's hard to study the ethnic makeup of the US in history. Most of the divisions are between white and black, but I think it's important to recognize that many of the working-class Europeans came after 1850, some as late as the 1920s. Yes, there was a small Dutch colony in New Amsterdam, and the descendants of those people became the elite in New York - but in general, almost all settlers in the United States before 1840, were English.

And yes, there were French here and there, but the French didn't fare very well.

Here's a reasonably good breakdown of the waves of immigration to the U.S.: https://www.businessinsider.com/largest-ethnic-groups-in-america-2013-8

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

Basically, what I am saying is that the song does not have the feel of a modern protest song, but rather a call for unity to make the country and people happy and prosperous, a gentle reminder that there are casualties to consider, but the ethos is on positivity and the overwhelming strength and good in humanity.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 05:13 AM

Cheers, Joe. I'm still not convinced by that "almost all...", not least because I read somewhere once (i.e. I can't remember where!) that there was a point at which German was nearly adopted as the national language! I was right about the Irish, at least...

Ake - one would think that you'd learn, then. Or are you trying to be the living embodiment of the auld dog who can't learn new tricks? ;-)

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 05:17 AM

Well, if nothing else, Woody is surely a learning opportunity...

Joe:
North America is a continent. The USA is a country. The “North American” census never happened. Different maths. Also, small point of order, British is not English.

MG: I had never heard of catholic norse...

Daaaaadun! Nooooooobody expects the Catholic NORSE!

For that “continental” feel:
Garðar, Greenland to London = 2900km
Garðar to Okemah, Oklahoma = 4500km

The “Norse colonies” were, at times, Icelandic, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Kalmariensic, Hanseatic, Basque and Acadian. Basques are French or Spanish, rock-paper-scissors. Acadians are French.

The Pagan Norse were just Iron Age 'White' Comanche with a side of capitalism. Those innocent looking Scots-Irish-Catholic pre-teen thralls were ticking mothers-in-law & Mothers Superior time bombs.

Greenland's royal family, such as it was, were famously split down the middle; the husbands Pagan; the wives Roman Catholic.

Roman Catholic Diocese of Skálholt, Iceland (c.1000AD)

Diocese of Hólar, Iceland (1106AD)

Garðar, Greenland (c.1125AD)

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 05:41 AM

"I read somewhere once (i.e. I can't remember where!) that there was a point at which German was nearly adopted as the national language!"

Seems unlikely. Perhaps you are thinking of the early Zionists, who seriously considered adopting German as their language in the Holy Land, before Hebrew won out. More than you would want to know at https://www.osmikon.de/en/thematic-dossiers/shared-histories/translate-to-english-zur-rolle-des-deutschen-im-zionismus-bis-zur-balfour-deklaration

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 05:44 AM

The myth of German as US offical language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States#German_as_the_official_US_language_myth

"An urban legend, sometimes called the Muhlenberg legend after Frederick Muhlenberg, states that English only narrowly defeated German as the U.S. official language. In reality, the proposal involved a requirement that government documents be translated into German."

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:20 AM

This land is your land, this land is my land From California to the New York island, From the redwood forest to the Gulf Stream waters...

Okemah to San Francisco = 2700km.

The post-Colombian racial histories the North American Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf coasts could hardly be more different. In the west:

For Native Americans the handwriting was on the wall, as they say, long before the Anglos even got there.

There was no African-American population, of any status, to speak of until the 20th century. Slavery was a political/moral abstraction tied to U.S. Statehood and a non-starter everywhere.

The people that really got trampled in the 1849 gold rush were the newly independent South & Central American nationals; Hispanics & Latinos many of whom would likely self-identify as White or use a different glossary altogether.

And Asians would quickly come to outnumber many of the lesser represented European nationalities.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:54 AM

Gerry - thanks for thoroughly debunking that! As I say, I can't remember where the hell I read it. As for Pennsylvania (mentioned in Gerry's wiki link), yes, I do also remember that as being mentioned as a centre of German-speakers. Though, oddly, I believe the American reference to them was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (and I know that at least one of those references is from Kipling's Captains Courageous).

---

Please try to focus on THE SONG. I don't want to close this, and I don't want to move it to BS.
If you want to, and can, start a thread in the BS section to talk about ethnicity, language, or whatever subject you wish to discuss, please do so. ~Mod

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 09:11 AM

There *is* no official language in the US.

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 11:47 AM

It's a nice song with a nice tune, I really cannot see the problem??

Subject: RE: This land is WHOSE land?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:43 PM

You were sayng? Raedwulf