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BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party

punkfolkrocker 22 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jul 20 - 03:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jul 20 - 05:08 PM
robomatic 22 Jul 20 - 05:37 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 20 - 08:56 PM
robomatic 22 Jul 20 - 09:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jul 20 - 12:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 20 - 06:19 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 20 - 09:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jul 20 - 09:39 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM
robomatic 24 Jul 20 - 12:16 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jul 20 - 01:53 AM
robomatic 24 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM
DMcG 24 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jul 20 - 05:32 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 20 - 06:05 AM
Rain Dog 24 Jul 20 - 06:35 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 20 - 07:39 AM
Howard Jones 24 Jul 20 - 08:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jul 20 - 10:30 AM
robomatic 24 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM
robomatic 24 Jul 20 - 11:14 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jul 20 - 02:48 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Jul 20 - 03:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jul 20 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 20 - 04:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jul 20 - 03:16 AM
Mr Red 25 Jul 20 - 03:21 AM
Raggytash 25 Jul 20 - 10:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jul 20 - 12:11 PM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 03:55 AM
Acorn4 26 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 05:39 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 06:26 AM
The Sandman 26 Jul 20 - 08:07 AM
Raggytash 26 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 20 - 08:17 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 08:18 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 08:20 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jul 20 - 08:41 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 02:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jul 20 - 03:23 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Jul 20 - 04:04 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM

Labour pays damages for 'hurt' to whistleblowers


I'll keep the intro brief,
because "full disclosure"
I'm part Jewish by bloodline family tree,
and have a dog in this fight.. [or at least part of a dog..]

..and my own strong legitimate opinions on the matter...

Hence a deliberately simplistic question...

Is this court settlement a positive new beginning..
or the beginning of the end, for the UK Labour Party...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:09 PM

Your thread is doomed I'm aftraid, PFR. Take it from one who can predict these things!

The Gnomes gnomic prediction :-)

Jim is gone. He wore out his welcome one too many times. ---sad mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:08 PM

Saddened too but not surprised. As you can probably guess.

PFR. Trouble is there is no simple answer. It was wrong of the Labour party to try to defame the whistleblowers as they did. However, admitting that is not an admission of antisemitism. There is antisemitism in the Labour party. As there will be in any large organisation. It needs to be fought without pandering to the influence of Israel. And so on. Tough call :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:37 PM

I like (not really- just find it fascinating!) that the last UK political thread which was very interesting in parts your politics is so different from ours I haven't a clue a most times, got bollixed up on antisemitism, and even had a clear way through via Starmer, but the usual bigots got into it, and when challenged either ignored the challenge or exiled the challenger, then STILL got kiboshed by a mod who was ostensibly their friend. I held my breath but I almost posted a jesus wept but thought that might have been too on the nose to be understood.

And the problem isn't really antisemitism, it's class hatred and a rigid loyalty to Communism or Marxism or whatever you want to call it but it comes down to paralyzed neurons in hardshell noggins. That Israel really matters in this age of Brexit, Covid, Ukraine, HongKong shows the ludicrous lengths the dessicated guard goes to to simulate relevancy. Slap a liberationist label onto something and they salivate like a Pavlovian canid.

If you get enough of them together in a small room with enough combustibles, make the exits a little slow to open and hollar real loud: "Molotov-Ribbentrop" they might all just do a matter-antimatter thing...

This was probably not what you were looking for, but you're about to get another rehash of old prejudices in old bottles most likely so enjoy the ride!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:56 PM

And the so-called settlement with the so-called whistleblowers has solved nothing. In fact, it has reignited the possibility that rifts in the party will be perpetuated:Antisemitism settlement plunges Labour party into civil war (Guardian, Wednesday).

I told you. This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:13 PM

Steve: Thanks for pointing out what I should have seen since it was right in front of me.

My comment of course was based on the last thread sadly ended. I owe the OP an answer on the issue. Interested as I am in the subject, U.K. politics is pretty intricate in ways I don't really know. But, I did have a reaction to the way pfr posed his/her interest. Having a Jewish blood link. I'd like to think that in the U.S. we don't think in those terms. Simple interest should be enough.

But a lot can be learned about ourselves and sidestepping the supposed topic of antisemitism and observing that between the U.K. and U.S. we have differences in the way we think that transcend our labels. I've met plenty of European Christians and they are not like U.S. Christians. Same goes for Jews. I'll never forget meeting a Cockney Jew in Auckland. Not like any American Jews I knew. I'm pretty sure the Irish I knew in Boston were not like the Irish in Ireland. They told me as much.

So- It may be very well that Labour has been diverted by enemies inside and outside with 'antisemitism' being a very big stalking horse. The BBC article linked by PFR calls that into question (or maybe indicates that the strategy was highly successful), but this is where my ignorance keeps me from going beyond that. In the UK thread now closed there was continual reference to the Israel Lobby which means to me that indeed there is a problem and it is either being suppressed or non-addressed. My analogy would be that it's a festering bullet in a wound that has to be removed whatsoever the pain.

It's an interesting subject which 'catters have addressed and readdressed and beyond the usual frustrations I hope they don't give up. When I read you guys whether or not I agree, I end up interested and maybe understanding a bit more better. I'm a big believer that we get out of the morass working from the bottom 80% and maybe getting a little help from those above with a lot of mistrust on both sides. But we have to trust somebody some time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 12:27 AM

robo - I am appalled and angered by cynical tactics the Pro-Israel Lobby,
opportunist UK right wing mass media,
and tory / far right adversaries,
have allegedly been deploying in order to assert undue influence on the UK Labour Party.

If I raised my head too high in vocal opposition to this,
it seems I could at worst be accused of being antisemitic and/or a self hating Jew...!!!???

It's this anxiety of not knowing where the goal posts of definitions of antisemitism are being shifted,
that is successfully silencing dissent...

You've probably seen yourself in recent years,
how freely such accusations have been gratuitously dished out,
by mostly non Jewish right wingers,
right here in mudcat BS threads...

It is the weaponisation of blatant false accusations of antisemitism,
that I am absolutely opposed to.

The Israel issue has assumed far to much prominence out of all proportion
in regard to UK domestic politics and elections.
But merely stating that could be sufficient to trigger hostile accusations...?????

Whatever starmer's longer term strategy might be,
right now his easy capitulation has legitimised too many highly dubious accusations
against the party he has been voted leader of..

He is a lawyer, and probably professionally accepting of plea bargains;
persuading innocent defendants to plead guilty to lesser crimes
in order to avoid the risk of protracted trials,
and potentially heavier sentences..

He is also a politician plotting an expedient course he hopes will work out for his objectives..

So who knows how his mind is working since he took over control of the party...???

I don't know enough about the facts of this court case,
regarding the Panorama TV program whistle blowers.
So will refrain from stating any gut feeling opinion,
or unreasonable preconceived bias.

I value objectivity, and real justice too much...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM

And the so-called settlement with the so-called whistleblowers has solved nothing. In fact, it has reignited the possibility that rifts in the party will be perpetuated:Antisemitism settlement plunges Labour party into civil war (Guardian, Wednesday).

I told you. This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue.


"So called"? The media seem to agree that these people were 'whistle-blowers', and that there has been a payout.

"This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue."
The sweeping under the carpet was done last year, under Corbyn.
If you sweep enough crap under the carpet eventually it will come out and cause problems. It is not reasonable to blame the person who then has to clean up someone else's mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:19 AM

Not a great analysis, Nigel. Dig deeper and ditch your prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM

No, you don't have that depth. You just post crap on the understanding that you can later say it was lies, whimsey, or misunderstood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 09:17 AM

Nigel, there have been many posts in several threads on alleged antisemitism in Labour. What you alleged in your earlier post has been done to death in minute detail. It behoves you to go and look it up before you spout about it, lest you be seen as a buffoon. And whenever you see me "spouting crap", do apprise me of your opinion in detail. When you've done that in the past I've routinely and easily refuted what you've said. That isn't me being clever, that's you not checking things out first. And this thread started well and got better until your intervention. Reflect on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 09:39 AM

And whenever you see me "spouting crap", do apprise me of your opinion in detail. When you've done that in the past I've routinely and easily refuted what you've said.
I'll leave that to your very selective memory, and move on to allow this thread to continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM

That would be very welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 12:16 AM

PFR:
I've tried several times to put together a response to your post of Date: 23 Jul 20 - 12:27 AM
and I seem to climb on to my own hobby horse each time. Each time it's a different hobby horse, too.
So let me start with your last line:
"I value objectivity, and real justice too much..."
I think we all do, but that agreeing on just what that means is a task, and then agreeing on how to apply that to the facts is a second task, and then agreeing on what ARE the facts is a third task.
And now I'm tired.

I don't have a warm body up here in Alaska to explain UK politics to me. I may try some reading and maybe even ask some questions back here.
I may refer you back to the recently deceased UK politics thread where I involved myself a little bit towards the end. I was able to write a coherent response to a well written query from Dave the Gnome. In it I was able to distinguish between what I felt was a proper non-antisemitic approach and what was clearly a smear tactic.
Here in the U.S. there is a different legal approach to ethnic challenges. In theory we have Amendment One (to the American Constitution) Freedom of Speech. So whether or not it is anti-semitic is a non issue: the issue is what are the societal repercussions. Mel Gibson can get arrested and say a whole lot of nasty things to a Jewish cop and he can also make a movie about his not very Jew-friendly interpretation of the Crucifixion. And life goes on. Europe, England and Ireland included, have a different history with where words can lead, and it isn't actually centered on Jews at all. Jews are merely the latest incarnation of words leading to deeds. The invention of the printing press and events like the Thirty Years War and St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre laid a bloody groundwork to your whole continent. Over here we are by no means better people, far from it, but we are a bunch of minorities who in general are not going to start killing each other.
Okay, now I’m gonna climb down from my latest hobby horse and finish with:

The article you reference seems to me to be a frank acknowledgement that there is an issue. Maybe the issue got fomented from anti-Labourites. Maybe not. But the best way out is through. Talk it out. Talk some more. You’ve got some pretty erudite folks over there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 01:53 AM

Steve had it right when he said, “ Dig deeper and ditch your prejudices“. That’s essential if we are to ‘Talk it out. Talk some more’. And it applies to everyone on all sides. In my experience, those who scream ‘prejudice’ and ‘bigot’ are just as likely to be prejudiced and bigoted as anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM

Backwoodsman:
I agree. But it isn't easy and that's why a lot of talk goes by. It's better than hitting, most of the time. Reminds me of all those Confederate statues coming down about now. Part of me is thinking: "Hey it took 155 years after the end of the (American) Civil War to get those statues down, but at least it's being done without bloodshed". Another part of me is thinking, "Hey if we could have prevented the statues going up in the first place how good would that have been!".


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

I probably won't comment much in this thread, because it is, according to the title, about the Labour Party, not the wider issues, and by and large it is those wider issues that matter more to me.

For example, my daughter has joined the Women's Equality Party. This party is, to the best of my knowledge, unique in the UK because they are perfectly happy for you to be a member of another party as well. While they would love to see themselves with an MP, they think their primarily role is a sort of lobby group, and if another party wants to steal their ideas, great.

So they have written this response to the mini budget. If Labour or the Conservatives even formulate a sensible rejection of these ideas, they will be happy that a dialogue has at least started.

And I agree: Labour needs to be talking to them, and the Greens, and others with well thought areas of concern. Not obsessing over internal matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 05:32 AM

DMcG:
Don't hold back from posting because of the thread title.
As the previous thread has been closed this will become the de facto single UK politics thread. As such the title is immaterial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 06:05 AM

The important issue for me is that we put equality at the heart of our movement which has the largest membership of any political party in the UK. However, beneath this there are those who align themselves to factions who will attack any policy that leads to equality at the expense of their 'grievance'. The most obvious conflicting grievances should be clear to everyone - and I do not intend the fuel the debate on specifics. That is something for another thread.

They problem is that because in our hearts we are an inclusive party, if we don't come across as perfect we are slated as an 'evil' and this results is people in the ballot box turning away.

In the end, it is easier to go down the line followed by the tories who gain political capital by promoting division. If Labour did that, then they lose one hard working activist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 06:35 AM

The vast majority of the electorate do not belong to any political party and probably have little interest in the internal shenanigans of any of the various parties.

Come an election, I am starting to think that a lot of people vote for the least worse party rather than the best party. I think it is definitely the case that a lot of voters do not agree with every item in a party's manifesto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 07:39 AM

The trouble with Labour obsessing over internal matters is that it's actually an external matter too, made so by the print media and the dark forces of the various advocates for Israel. Tony Blair overcame the first of those by getting into bed with Rupert Murdoch. He was helped by the fact that he was served up a string of fifth-rate Tory leaders for years. In addition, he was very pro-Israel, so there was no conflict in the party between the leadership and Labour Friends Of Israel (Does anyone really think that there were fewer "antisemites" in the party then than now?). You could wring your hands in despair, thinking that the only way to get Labour back in power is to do a total Blair sellout. Even if you did think that way, the current man is totally bereft of the personal attributes that made Blair successful, so not only would you not see Labour in power, you'd have ditched your principles as well. The Guardian article I referred to last week about Roy Jenkins' achievements as Home Secretary (I was no fan, but he did what he did...) got me thinking that Labour has simply got to show the country that there's a better and more civilised way. We don't need to talk about antisemitism any more. We don't need detailed and tightly-costed manifestos, backed by daft slogans, that are grist to the mill of the Daily Mail and Express. We need vision, and now above all is the time for a sea-change of direction. Don't ask me for details. I've just waved goodbye to my son and family after a full-on, noisy week, which was a real treat after the last few months, and I'm knackered...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 08:08 AM

It's certainly true that Labour has the largest party membership. This is from the House of Commons Library:

"As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members, compared to the Conservatives, who had 180,000 members. The SNP had around 125,500 members (December 2018), the Liberal Democrats 115,000 (August 2019), Green Party 48,500 (July 2019), UKIP 29,000 (April 2019) and Plaid Cymru 10,000 (October 2018)."

Obviously these numbers don't reflect how people voted at elections. Possibly Labour members have more of an emotional attachment to the "Movement" than do supporters of other parties, and are more likely to actually join the party.

These numbers are tiny compared with a total electorate of nearly 48 million. On the whole, most people aren't very interested in politics and certainly not in joining political parties. Perhaps we get the politicians we deserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 10:30 AM

I know the answer to all of it. Firstly, Get rid of party politics. Each MP should be elected on their own merits. Second, 25% of MPs need to go to the polls every year. Different ones of course! Finally, the electorate should have more say but only if they can prove they have a full understanding of the issues and repercussions. Referendums on important issues with a serious exam before being allowed to vote.

Either all that or me as a benign dictator.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM

I will come to the point of this thread in future. But I've GOT to tell you all here in the early morning with the local TV on I just saw a political ad for a local orthopedic surgeon who is challenging one of our conservative Senators in the coming election. Showed him in fishing attire and prologue was how "he killed a grizzly that was sneaking up on him." Had to think of Davy Crockett who killed him a bar when he was only three. (I suspect Canadian politics might run this way in the West also).

Some stuff just doesn't change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:14 AM

Steve:

Re your last post. I think most of us can agree most of the time that we need vision. There was a famous quote in the last millenium about Bush 1 and the "vision thing". As you know the devil is in the details. Not unlike belling the cat. But can we even agree on what is the cat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM

Dave, without parties, you don't have an indication about how representatives will align themselves in parliament. At least with party politics their is an agreed line that people may choose to support or reject. But that also implies that the parties are honest with their election promises.

I have never been to a tory party meeting, and have no intention of ever doing so, but it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall to listen to what they talk about - eg the vested interests of hedge fund investors, the interests of property portfolio owners, and s***ing off the opposition compared with LP meetings where we subject our representatives to questioning and scrutiny or discuss social issues.

Following this further - could part of the problem be that there is a lack of vested interest discussion by those who a personally most affected by tory policy, and too much coming from an intellectual angle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:48 PM

But if they had no party affiliation they could vote for their consience/constituents/country rather than for their party!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 03:15 PM

But without manifestos, how do people know what policy directions they are voting for. I am not convinced that in many cases people would not be electing people on the back of a single issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 03:45 PM

DtG - a simple obvious question..

What kind of people would most likely be able
to self-finance careers as independent MPs...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 04:45 PM

I think we need a party system, largely for the reasons given by SBS and pfr (bloody initials...). Without a decent party system you're in danger of throwing up a Putin or a Xi. I know they pretend to have parties, but they are not bona fide. One lot of pillocks genuinely holding another lot of pillocks to account is rather important I feel. In the perfect world, a Big Wise Person would be like a permanent referee, making sure that neither set of pillocks was cheating. We won't get that so we have to put up with something at least a bit devious and adversarial...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

Ah well. Back to my benign dictator dictatorship then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:16 AM

You can be a benign dictator - as long as you do what I tell you ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:21 AM

The problem with benign dictatorships is in choosing them.

I give you Corby, crowing. (sic) And what do you get? Anti-semitism is made that bit easier to infiltrate. (Did I say a bit?) And Brexshit.

Yea Yea, give a no-hoper a chance to at least sup at the trough. I bet Frank Field is regretting that. Such an intelligent man normally.

But as I said at the time "How many elections did Michael Foot ever win?" or the wrong Milliband for that matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 10:17 AM

Benign dictatorship eh?

No, what you actually need is a Benevolent Dictator.

I, of course, would be the obvious choice for this position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 12:11 PM

Which Miller Band should it have been? Glen or Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 03:55 AM

What is needed imo is a Labour party that can win an election and implement some aspects of socialism ,for example Railways and water company nationalisation., plus take us forward on green issues. I am not convinced that Starmer has the necessary charisma, he is good at debate, but that is about it imo


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM

I'm staying a member but rather fear we've just got Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Spot on. And look what happened to Miliband: in spite of all the hope invested in him, trounced by a man full of charisma. That is precisely what is likely to happen to Starmer. We've learned nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:39 AM

”We’ve learned nothing”

Speak for yourself.

Some of us have at least learned that Corbyn - himself extremely deficient in the charisma-department - was a disaster who took the LP to its worst defeat in living memory, and that replacing him with more of the same is very unlikely to bring any sort of improvement. To be fair, some of us knew it all along but, supported him out of respect for his being the democratically-elected leader.

None of the three candidates in the final vote for the leadership were exactly charismatic though, were they? Lisa Nandy - my preference - seems to be a good thinker, but comes across as ‘rather dull and boring‘, RL-B is undoubtedly a good Socialist but has the personality of a breeze-block, Starmer is sharp and incisive in debate, a thinker, but otherwise just a man in a (posh) suit.

So, if you’re suggesting that the leader’s charisma will be an important - perhaps the most important - element in the fight for success at the next election, and that Starmer lacks that level of charisma, then on the basis of charisma-content, who would you choose to replace him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM

the imporant issue is winning the next election and the tories losing it, they might do this because of economic situation [hard to predict precisely]i think the most likely otcome is a lib lab coaltion, that might suit starmer ,because in my opinion he belongs in the liberal party,i agree that is better than a conservative government, but it still[ i speculate] does not produce what i want to see renationalisation of railways nationalisation of water companies. ecological encouragement for alternative energy.
if i had a choice of long furlough bailey or starmer,, i suppose long bailey, but i do accept what you have to say about both being poor candidates[charisma and image wise].i make my decision on the basis that both have faults but long bailey even in coalition would push for more of what i want from the labour party.
i think they both are about equal in lack of charisma and both will do a little better than Corbyn because of the lack of interference from the brexit parties.Possibly a woman might be better than a man? i am not sur.
Corbyn was imo defeated mainly because the pact between ukip the tories and brexit party. Starmers stength is debate, but i doubt if that alone is sufficient, he may be lucky and do better because he will not be up against an electoral pact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:26 AM

I agree with you about the UKIP/Tory/BP pact, but Corbyn was also the architect of his own doom because - back to pfr’s theme for this thread - he failed to nail the ‘antisemitism’ accusations, failed to deal with the ‘friend of the Terrorists’ accusations, and failed to find a way to show the Tory Proaganda Campaign for what it was - character-assassination on a grand scale.

Well the ‘friend of the Terrorists’ nonsense has hopefully gone away with Corbyn, and Starmer appears to be trying to deal with the ‘antisemitism’ stuff by jumping on anyone and anything that could conceivably be hi-jacked by the Tories and their Israeli friends and used evidence of antisemitism within the party. That may not please the fans of those who are jumped on, but you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:07 AM

but you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg or two.
but you can make an eggshibition of oneself whilst so doing ., and geta potential rival on to the back benches... Starmer is exhibiting an image that he wants us to believe that he is a strong man, personally i think by the time the next election comes round this will be a red herring, and more important things will concern the electorate , of course i could be wrong. rebecca long furlough bailey could be in for a long furlough on the back benches


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

I think it is a sad fact that unless a prospective leader looks good on television and can operate almost entirely through "sound-bites" he or she has little chance of ending up as Prime Minister.

That, I'm afraid, is the reality of politics in the UK today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:17 AM

Saying that he failed to nail the antisemitism issue is like saying that he failed to nail jelly to the wall. So far, all the signs are that the antisemitism issue is fully in hands of the pro-Israel forces, mostly outside the party. He might manage to shut up the scumbags such as Smeeth, Hodge, Mann and Ellman, but you can bet your life that the Board of Deputies and the other pro-Israel groups are now rubbing their hands with glee now that the real power is in their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:18 AM

You could be right, Dick. But I strongly suspect that, after a suitable period In The Naughty Corner to allow her to, as my old mum used to say, “think about what she’s done”, he’ll have her back on the front bench. And quite right too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:20 AM

So Steve, your recommendation to replace him is...??


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:41 AM

My dream ticket months ago was all-women, Becky Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner. Neither is the finished article, but they are a damn sight fresher that Starmer and my strong feeling is that they would have rapidly grown into the jobs. And Boris doesn't like unpredictable women against him, if you know what I mean. Since you asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 02:33 PM

Yes Steve, I did ask, because identifying a problem is the easy bit - coming up with a solution is what’s difficult and what takes all the careful, unprejudiced consideration.

During fifty years in industry, mostly in senior financial and management positions, I insisted on one Golden Rule, given to me by my first MD back in the ‘60s, to be in operation in all my meetings - that anyone who brings a perceived problem to the table must also bring a proposed solution for discussion. No solution, no problem, period. And it was very successful in keeping the shit-stirrers under control.

So, presumably you’re content that RL-B and AR have the charisma to overcome the Tory Propaganda Machine (quiet at the moment but, trust me, ready and only too willing to crank up to full volume as the next GE looms) and the Boris-Bluster (which, judging by comments I’ve seen in the media, is regarded by some voters as one of Johnson’s best vote-catching characteristics)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 03:23 PM

"your recommendation to replace him is...??"

I'll kick off with...

A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...

might have a lot of the qualities and charisma needed to win back
working class ex Labour voters from the far right...

..though some of the constituent parts I suggest
might alienate a few potential converts back to labour...

.. and perhaps a few current Labour supporters...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:04 PM

”A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...“

Errrrmm...which regiment did you say you were in, pfr? ;-)


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