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BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party

Rain Dog 06 Aug 20 - 11:38 AM
DMcG 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM
DMcG 06 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Aug 20 - 11:24 AM
DMcG 06 Aug 20 - 11:23 AM
Rain Dog 06 Aug 20 - 11:03 AM
DMcG 06 Aug 20 - 10:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM
Rain Dog 06 Aug 20 - 05:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 06 Aug 20 - 05:16 AM
DMcG 05 Aug 20 - 06:00 AM
DMcG 05 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 Jul 20 - 02:58 AM
Backwoodsman 31 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 30 Jul 20 - 05:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jul 20 - 10:38 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM
Raggytash 29 Jul 20 - 09:45 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Jul 20 - 08:06 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 04:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 20 - 02:24 PM
The Sandman 28 Jul 20 - 02:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 20 - 02:07 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 01:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 20 - 01:04 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 12:44 PM
Nigel Parsons 28 Jul 20 - 12:38 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 11:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jul 20 - 10:34 AM
The Sandman 28 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM
Acorn4 28 Jul 20 - 05:50 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 03:06 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Jul 20 - 03:01 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 20 - 07:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jul 20 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 20 - 06:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jul 20 - 02:49 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jul 20 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM
Acorn4 27 Jul 20 - 09:37 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:38 AM

It is highly unlikely that other routes will be used to reduce any delays at Dover. It has been a good few years since any services ran from Folkestone or Ramsgate. Even if they resurrected that half baked idea of running ferries from Ramsgate, you would still have the problem of the vehicles entering Kent.

Ports further west from Dover have the problem with the length of sailing time. They could in theory put on extra ferries but that will depend on costs etc.

When I first started in the business, ferries from Dover ran to Calais, Boulogne, Dunkerque, Zeebrugge, Ostend. Nowadays they just run to Calais and Dunkerque.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

To elaborate: what I meant when I said the cargo is not relevant I meant it did not matter whether the cargo is washing machines, or bedsheets, or other non-perishables (for low priority goods); it does matter that it is cargo: it does not matter what the cargo is (except for prioritisation for certain items.)

What the cargo is is covered by other legislation and regulation, not this document.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM

It is a permit for the vehicle to travel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:24 AM

All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it,
Try reading it again. It is not a 'permit to travel, having nothing to do with cargo". We are talking about paperwork completed by a "freight forwarder". The word "freight" refers to goods, not persons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:23 AM

I agree Dover is the main problem, Rain Dog. That does not mean the others will not be, especially if other routes are used to reduce any delays at Dover.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:03 AM

The fact is that the vast majority of ro/ro traffic comes/goes through Dover and Eurotunnel. With the other ports having to deal with much less traffic, they will not experience the same problems that are found in Kent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:33 AM

I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen.


All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it, except in so far it is determinations whether it is a priority permit or or normal one.    Secondly, this is an electronic system: the master is the electronic record - eg for ANPR - not the paper one.   In most cases, while the driver could write anything he or she fancies on any paper record, it is the electronic one that counts, and my guess is that very few of them have access to that. But even if they have, make it an offence to alter the record. Then the person who issues it gets fined if it is not issued correctly, and the driver gets fined if they commit the sort of offences you list. It may be ignorance or lack of imagination on my part, but I can't think of another case where the legal responsibility is on one person, and no penalty at all on them if they breach the rules, but there is a penalty on the person who may not even have a right of access to the system. It seems an exceptionally odd arrangement to me.


Think of a simple case: some admin clerk mistypes the licence plate. I pick that as an example because it happened to my wife her car insurance and she was detained for nearly two hours because she was thought to have no insurance. SO that can happen. The consequence under this law: the driver gets fined.

As for the Operation Brook comment: yes, I know it only details with Dover. That means similar things are needed for Portsmouth, and Southampton, and Liverpool and Shields and all the rest. My comment was not that the document is not wide enough. It was that many more such documents will also be required to adequately deal with congestion at ports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!
This is because the document that you cite: "Proposed legislative amendments on enforcing Operation Brock" is well titled. It deals with changes to "Operation Brock", which is the planned traffic management system in Kent for use in the event of a no-deal Brexit", and so is not relative to other areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:24 AM

Of course it should be noted:

"SF is an online service for the RoRo freight industry BEING
developed by the government. The service will help to simplify and automate the process of establishing the border-readiness of an HCV to help mitigate the risk of delays."

and

"While the SF portal’s traffic light system would be advisory across the country, we propose to make its use enforceable in Kent. This is because of the particular disruption risks at the Short Straits if levels of border-readiness are low – widespread use of SF has the potential to significantly to mitigate this risk."

and

"A viable border-readiness regime is critical to maintaining the flow of traffic at the border after the end of the transition period. While upstream declarations using the SF portal with compliance and enforcement in Kent is our preferred option, we must develop contingency plans in case the SF service is unavailable (for example, due to post-deployment IT failure in 2021)."

We live in interesting times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:16 AM

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen. Some responsibility must be with the driver. Otherwise the lorry driver who had 39 Vietnamese dead in his refrigerated lorry would not have been prosecuted.
The forwarder is responsible for completing the paperwork, but the driver is responsible for presenting it. I would imagine that the paperwork provided by the freight forwarder is done so electronically, and checked automatically at the time of completion. A paper copy would then accompany the shipment (driver).


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 06:00 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM

Proposed legislative amendments om enforcing Operation Brock

A very dull title, and I see they are proposals, not actual amendments, but there are some quite significant things in this. It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period. Some things, like a reduction in the capacity of the M20 to two lanes, with the other a queueing area, have been around a long time, but that it is proposed to last until October 2021 (and possibly renewed then) is confirmed here. The problems of dealing with "fresh and live products can lose between 30 to 60% of their value within 1 to 2 days)" is also recognised, as a priority system proposed (with, of course, a corresponding delay for other users.)

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

One Nun Dead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

..errrmm.. of course I meant Hadrian's Wall...

There's too many walls named after ancient blokes beginning with an H...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:58 AM

trump could claim to be the true King of Scotland,
and build an extension to Hannibal's Wall..


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM

”If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.“

I’ll also try again and, as you failed to understand last time, I’ll also keep it simple...

If, and it’s a very big ‘if’, Scotland left the Union, it wouldn’t be for at least a couple of years. A lot can happen in a couple of years, and forecasting the result of an ensuing general election at least two years ahead goes well beyond even the most optimistic crystal-ball-gazing.

I’m in Scotland on holiday next August. Could you weave your magical skills as a soothsayer and tell me what the weather will be doing - it’s only a year ahead, should be simple for someone with your powers. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

I've never had any inclination to play "Fantasy Football",
but if I get the gist of the basics..

What about an expedient Labour / SNP coalition Govt..

With Sturgeon as PM, and starmer as deputy PM..???


Is it feasible under the rules, and could it work, at least long enough,
to kick the tories out of power...??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 05:55 AM

Let me try again then, and keep it simple.
If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.
That would not be an easy task.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

A Labour coalition govt with a pack of dogs,
couldn't be worse than the current occupant of 10 downing st,
and his cabinet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

Fingers crossed, pfr! ;-)

Although to be fair, my Border Terrier talks more sense than the Fat Blond Buffoon currently occupying 10, Downing Street. And he’s a lot better looking than Johnson too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM

Are you getting a lot of gaslighting over in the UK like the Trump folks do routinely here in the US? Our latest illustration of this was AG Barr appearing before Congress and lying through his teeth about things they asked. I didn't watch the whole thing, just excerpts, but I'm guessing he wasn't sworn in or he'd have been perjuring himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:38 AM

Politicians are ambitious by definition and nature..

Wonder how Sturgeon would react to this offer..

"You can be leader of an independent Scotland, or PM of the entire UK"...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

Well I think you might be right, Raggy. But for different reasons to the one Nigel seemed to be suggesting.

If I read Nigel right, he was suggesting that the 59 Scottish MPs would simply disappear into a black hole, leaving the balance of power between the English, Welsh, and Northern Ireland MPs precisely as it currently is. I’m suggesting that Scotland leaving the Union would necessarily result in the Union’s dissolution, and that with the formation of a new Union between England, Wales and NI, there would have to be an election to form a government.

Whilst I agree that, for one reason and another, we are unlikely to see a Labour government for quite some time, I believe that to expect an even larger Tory majority (as Nigel is apparently suggesting will be the case) is to count the chickens before they hatch.

Politics is a funny old business. Who, for instance, would have expected a mass defection amongst traditional Labour voters to the Tories? Having defected once, they could quite easily defect back, especially when they’ve seen the Tories’ disastrous handling of Covid-19 with its hugely disproportionate death-toll and the unemployment it will bring, plus their reaction remains to be seen when the true scale of the horror of Brexit becomes clear in a year or two.

The Tories’ tactics are always ‘Smash and Grab, then leave Labour to clear up the mess’ - I reckon we’re around half-way through the ‘Smash and Grab’ phase right about now, and the slide will begin after they’ve won the next GE, but with a reduced majority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:45 AM

I think in this instance Nigel is correct.

If Scotland were to leave the union we would see a conservative government in what remained of the UK for a considerable period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM

I mention it because the United Kingdom would no longer exist, nor would Great Britain. A new political union would, presumably, take the place of what we now recognise as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It seems reasonable to assume that a new political union would require a new government, does it not? In which case, you might be guilty above of counting your chickens before they hatch, don’cha think? If ‘a week is a long time in politics‘, you can be assured that several years is a very great deal longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

Wouldn’t there have to be a General Election in the remaining parts of the United Kingdom, Nigel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:06 AM

Nicola Sturgeon could also really help the Conservative party.
Although Th Conservative and Unionist Party doesn't want Scotland to separate from the UK (politically), if it did, The Conservatives would lose 6 MPs, but the total number of MPs would reduce by 59. That would make the Conservative majority in Parliament even greater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 04:47 PM

Yep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:24 PM

The [selfish...???] Scots gave Labour a nasty nationalist kicking,
and it's been all downhill from then on...

Funnily enough, my Welsh Valleys mrs,
who is well into Celtic Girl Power,
truly believes Nicola Sturgeon would be the best Labour PM we'll never have...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:11 PM

I am not convinced that Starmer will kick them out, does he appeal to sufficient working class voters, will blue collar brexiteers vote for him or johnson?i hope so but i would not put money on it, it could partly be how bad the economy is? then the system of voting does not help the labour party and liberal party split the centre and centre left and left vote in england in scotland how will the snp do will labour get back any scottish votes doubtful? or likely? hard to predioct at this stage


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:07 PM

BWM - you old punk hippy [slightly righty] lefty...!!!

Next, Nigel and bonz admit they aren't really that different to us..???

Then Nigel lists his favourite punk LPs..

Life is sometimes full of surprises...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:56 PM

I think you’re my brother by a different mother, pfr - you pretty much summed me up right there, on every point. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:04 PM

As I'm a product of 1960s and 70s hippy and punk counter culture,
I'm a bit allergic to being categorised..

I'm obviously some sort of lefty..

Voting Labour is in my old fashioned working class family DNA,
and reinforced by half a century of my own serious political analysis..

But my views vary in degrees of left or right depending
on each separate important issue...

I'm definitely very left on social and employment issues,
but my stance on law 'n' order is hardline severe enough
to make most tories uncomfortable...

The worst thing in my opinion about voting Labour,
the main impediment to getting Labour to kick the tories out of power,
is the Labour Party...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:44 PM

I’m going to have to be very careful, I’m beginning to find my centre-left views (or, as Jim would probably describe them, ‘Right-Wing) closer to Nigel’s than Steve’s, Jim’s, and Dick’s.

Very, very worrying...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:38 PM

Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask. As I said, they would grow into the jobs. There's no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy. Johnson is a misogynist, and, as such, he would be no match for them. Two good socialist women against a burnt-out Tory fatty? No contest.
I wouldn't agree that Boris is "burnt out", and even if he is, under the current system there is no way that the left would be able to put up two opponents.

Doubtless you will explain away your comments as 'whimsey', or my comments as being "too literal", but it won't stop me from stopping your outrageous claims being allowed to stand unchallenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 11:33 AM

”WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..“

Precisely, pfr, but that’s immaterial - I didn’t want him either, but he is the democratically-elected leader by what, by any standard, was a landslide.

I wonder if the members and supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party - you know, the party with a majority of 81 in the House of Commons, and which is funded by billionaire, tax-dodging ex-pats on a scale so enormous it puts Labour donations into the ‘sweetie-money’ category - are busily involving their party in public self-immolation over how their disgusting, racist, sexist leader and his stooge came to power?

Somehow, I doubt it. They’re too busy getting on with the business of crashing out of the EU without a trade deal, selling the NHS piecemeal, increasing austerity to further screw the ordinary Joes at the same time as they protect the interests of the immensely wealthy, collecting little nuggets to twist and use as ammunition in the inevitable pre-election Propaganda Campaign, yadda yadda. You know, all the important stuff...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 10:34 AM

Dick - you are not one of a special smug gang of three..

WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..

So please stop this divisive friction...

Other than that, WE are on the same side, and I agree with you on the very positive posts
you've made in this thread...

As for Jim, his analysis was usually spot on correct.
But sadly, his increasingly obsessive intolerant personality was his ultimate downfall...

I'll miss his knowledge and the links he posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

IF Starmer has Blairite support it seems like steve myself and jim , might have been right


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 05:50 AM

Details of Keir Starmer's donors for his campaign for leader are now beginning to emerge and it makes interesting reading.

Because he was well off he was able to provide the money for his own campaign but accepted donations to cover his own outlay, but was not obliged to declare these until after the election unlike the two other candidates:-


https://medium.com/@pitt_bob/who-funded-keir-starmers-campaign-170a42b43fc0

The phrase "usual suspects" comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:06 AM

Ooooops, pressed ‘Go’ too soon. Should have said....

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to. The time for challenging Israel will be when Labour is in Government and has some semblance of power. Right now, it’s just a toothless tiger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:01 AM

”So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John?“

I don’t know, Steve. I’m not a member of the PLP, I’m not even a member of the LP. I don’t know any Labour MPs personally, I have no knowledge of theIr true beliefs and private personal behaviours, I haven’t a clue about the things they say in private - have you?

“...unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...
.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???”


Precisely the reason why the leader of the party should clamp down on anyone who says anything that could conceivably be latched-onto by The Tory Propaganda Machine - the Goebbels Principle applies. Shit sticks, the disaster of the 2019 GE is undeniable proof of that. And I’ve lost count of the number of people who have told me they ‘couldn’t vote Labour at the last election because Corbyn is an anti-semite and a friend of the terrorists’. Yes, it’s shit, but shit sticks.

What I do know is that MPs are elected to serve the people of the United Kingdom, people who desperately need a Labour government. Labour MPs should be giving their full attention to the welfare of our own citizens and working towards ridding us of the worst, most corrupt, most destructive Tory government in living memory.

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:55 PM

You're not wrong, and that's precisely why we're in this global pickle...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:44 PM

.. unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...

.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???

wot a shite existence...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:15 PM

But you stuck to your principles.

So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John? It seems to me that the actions as well as the words of Keir Starmer amount to apologising for past "misdemeanours" in the party. My firm view is that he shouldn't be doing that. I'm a member of the party because, compared to other outfits, the Labour Party, in spite of its faults and frequent outbursts of naivety and amateurism, is a shining beacon of virtue and principle. And I note that the chief rabbi is out there today knocking social media. Watch that space. I've told you: these people don't go away. And start apologising for mythical issues and they'll go away all the slower.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:49 PM

.. just saying...


A couple of decades ago..
A weak cowardly Community Folk History project manager,
once tried to force me into making a public apology
to false allegations of verbal bullying,
contrived by a vain manipulative treacherous old tory and her henchwomen
on the volunteers committee..

The manager had previously confided to me,
she was being made ill by that old tory's constant complaints, interfering, and petty accusations...

I felt betrayed, and angry, so refused..

.. and the result of my defiance, was unemployment and loss of earnings...

The old tory got what she wanted, me replaced by a minion more to her political approval;
and her also taking credit and local glory for all my ideas and work..

.. and she still continued bullying the pathetic manager...

[that's my version of events, and I'm sticking to it...]


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Steve, read my post again - I never mentioned apologising ‘for something that doesn’t need apologising for’. I clearly and specifically spoke about apologising when one is in the wrong.

Please don’t twist my words, that’s one of Jim’s dishonest tactics - I like to think you’re better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

Apologising - or, worse, being forced to apologise - for something that doesn't need apologising for shows lack of courage. The pro-Israel lobbyists and the Board Of Deputies will soon cotton on to you for doing that, and will strike when the time is right, just before the next election, for example. Don't think that this "Labour antisemitism" stuff is going away any time soon. It's far too useful a weapon for keeping Labour out of power for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:46 PM

"Did you just call me a 'self hating' Jew...!!!???"


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

Being Jewish ain't sufficient...
Being Jewish on the left or right makes the real meaningful difference.

What Labour needed/needs is leftish Jews with real fighting spirit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 09:37 AM

On the anti-semitism question, wasn't the Labour leader before Corbyn Jewish?

Do we live in the age of short memories?


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Mudcat time: 6 August 9:53 PM EDT

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