BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:02 PM

Labour pays damages for 'hurt' to whistleblowers


I'll keep the intro brief,
because "full disclosure"
I'm part Jewish by bloodline family tree,
and have a dog in this fight.. [or at least part of a dog..]

..and my own strong legitimate opinions on the matter...

Hence a deliberately simplistic question...

Is this court settlement a positive new beginning..
or the beginning of the end, for the UK Labour Party...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:09 PM

Your thread is doomed I'm aftraid, PFR. Take it from one who can predict these things!

The Gnomes gnomic prediction :-)

---

Jim is gone. He wore out his welcome one too many times. ---sad mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:08 PM

Saddened too but not surprised. As you can probably guess.

PFR. Trouble is there is no simple answer. It was wrong of the Labour party to try to defame the whistleblowers as they did. However, admitting that is not an admission of antisemitism. There is antisemitism in the Labour party. As there will be in any large organisation. It needs to be fought without pandering to the influence of Israel. And so on. Tough call :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:37 PM

I like (not really- just find it fascinating!) that the last UK political thread which was very interesting in parts your politics is so different from ours I haven't a clue a most times, got bollixed up on antisemitism, and even had a clear way through via Starmer, but the usual bigots got into it, and when challenged either ignored the challenge or exiled the challenger, then STILL got kiboshed by a mod who was ostensibly their friend. I held my breath but I almost posted a jesus wept but thought that might have been too on the nose to be understood.

And the problem isn't really antisemitism, it's class hatred and a rigid loyalty to Communism or Marxism or whatever you want to call it but it comes down to paralyzed neurons in hardshell noggins. That Israel really matters in this age of Brexit, Covid, Ukraine, HongKong shows the ludicrous lengths the dessicated guard goes to to simulate relevancy. Slap a liberationist label onto something and they salivate like a Pavlovian canid.

If you get enough of them together in a small room with enough combustibles, make the exits a little slow to open and hollar real loud: "Molotov-Ribbentrop" they might all just do a matter-antimatter thing...

This was probably not what you were looking for, but you're about to get another rehash of old prejudices in old bottles most likely so enjoy the ride!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:56 PM

And the so-called settlement with the so-called whistleblowers has solved nothing. In fact, it has reignited the possibility that rifts in the party will be perpetuated:Antisemitism settlement plunges Labour party into civil war (Guardian, Wednesday).

I told you. This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:13 PM

Steve: Thanks for pointing out what I should have seen since it was right in front of me.

My comment of course was based on the last thread sadly ended. I owe the OP an answer on the issue. Interested as I am in the subject, U.K. politics is pretty intricate in ways I don't really know. But, I did have a reaction to the way pfr posed his/her interest. Having a Jewish blood link. I'd like to think that in the U.S. we don't think in those terms. Simple interest should be enough.

But a lot can be learned about ourselves and sidestepping the supposed topic of antisemitism and observing that between the U.K. and U.S. we have differences in the way we think that transcend our labels. I've met plenty of European Christians and they are not like U.S. Christians. Same goes for Jews. I'll never forget meeting a Cockney Jew in Auckland. Not like any American Jews I knew. I'm pretty sure the Irish I knew in Boston were not like the Irish in Ireland. They told me as much.

So- It may be very well that Labour has been diverted by enemies inside and outside with 'antisemitism' being a very big stalking horse. The BBC article linked by PFR calls that into question (or maybe indicates that the strategy was highly successful), but this is where my ignorance keeps me from going beyond that. In the UK thread now closed there was continual reference to the Israel Lobby which means to me that indeed there is a problem and it is either being suppressed or non-addressed. My analogy would be that it's a festering bullet in a wound that has to be removed whatsoever the pain.

It's an interesting subject which 'catters have addressed and readdressed and beyond the usual frustrations I hope they don't give up. When I read you guys whether or not I agree, I end up interested and maybe understanding a bit more better. I'm a big believer that we get out of the morass working from the bottom 80% and maybe getting a little help from those above with a lot of mistrust on both sides. But we have to trust somebody some time.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 12:27 AM

robo - I am appalled and angered by cynical tactics the Pro-Israel Lobby,
opportunist UK right wing mass media,
and tory / far right adversaries,
have allegedly been deploying in order to assert undue influence on the UK Labour Party.

If I raised my head too high in vocal opposition to this,
it seems I could at worst be accused of being antisemitic and/or a self hating Jew...!!!???

It's this anxiety of not knowing where the goal posts of definitions of antisemitism are being shifted,
that is successfully silencing dissent...

You've probably seen yourself in recent years,
how freely such accusations have been gratuitously dished out,
by mostly non Jewish right wingers,
right here in mudcat BS threads...

It is the weaponisation of blatant false accusations of antisemitism,
that I am absolutely opposed to.

The Israel issue has assumed far to much prominence out of all proportion
in regard to UK domestic politics and elections.
But merely stating that could be sufficient to trigger hostile accusations...?????

Whatever starmer's longer term strategy might be,
right now his easy capitulation has legitimised too many highly dubious accusations
against the party he has been voted leader of..

He is a lawyer, and probably professionally accepting of plea bargains;
persuading innocent defendants to plead guilty to lesser crimes
in order to avoid the risk of protracted trials,
and potentially heavier sentences..

He is also a politician plotting an expedient course he hopes will work out for his objectives..

So who knows how his mind is working since he took over control of the party...???

I don't know enough about the facts of this court case,
regarding the Panorama TV program whistle blowers.
So will refrain from stating any gut feeling opinion,
or unreasonable preconceived bias.

I value objectivity, and real justice too much...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM

And the so-called settlement with the so-called whistleblowers has solved nothing. In fact, it has reignited the possibility that rifts in the party will be perpetuated:Antisemitism settlement plunges Labour party into civil war (Guardian, Wednesday).

I told you. This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue.

"So called"? The media seem to agree that these people were 'whistle-blowers', and that there has been a payout.

"This bloke hasn't got a bloody clue."
The sweeping under the carpet was done last year, under Corbyn.
If you sweep enough crap under the carpet eventually it will come out and cause problems. It is not reasonable to blame the person who then has to clean up someone else's mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:19 AM

Not a great analysis, Nigel. Dig deeper and ditch your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM

No, you don't have that depth. You just post crap on the understanding that you can later say it was lies, whimsey, or misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 09:17 AM

Nigel, there have been many posts in several threads on alleged antisemitism in Labour. What you alleged in your earlier post has been done to death in minute detail. It behoves you to go and look it up before you spout about it, lest you be seen as a buffoon. And whenever you see me "spouting crap", do apprise me of your opinion in detail. When you've done that in the past I've routinely and easily refuted what you've said. That isn't me being clever, that's you not checking things out first. And this thread started well and got better until your intervention. Reflect on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 09:39 AM

And whenever you see me "spouting crap", do apprise me of your opinion in detail. When you've done that in the past I've routinely and easily refuted what you've said.
I'll leave that to your very selective memory, and move on to allow this thread to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM

That would be very welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 12:16 AM

PFR:
I've tried several times to put together a response to your post of Date: 23 Jul 20 - 12:27 AM
and I seem to climb on to my own hobby horse each time. Each time it's a different hobby horse, too.
So let me start with your last line:
"I value objectivity, and real justice too much..."
I think we all do, but that agreeing on just what that means is a task, and then agreeing on how to apply that to the facts is a second task, and then agreeing on what ARE the facts is a third task.
And now I'm tired.

I don't have a warm body up here in Alaska to explain UK politics to me. I may try some reading and maybe even ask some questions back here.
I may refer you back to the recently deceased UK politics thread where I involved myself a little bit towards the end. I was able to write a coherent response to a well written query from Dave the Gnome. In it I was able to distinguish between what I felt was a proper non-antisemitic approach and what was clearly a smear tactic.
Here in the U.S. there is a different legal approach to ethnic challenges. In theory we have Amendment One (to the American Constitution) Freedom of Speech. So whether or not it is anti-semitic is a non issue: the issue is what are the societal repercussions. Mel Gibson can get arrested and say a whole lot of nasty things to a Jewish cop and he can also make a movie about his not very Jew-friendly interpretation of the Crucifixion. And life goes on. Europe, England and Ireland included, have a different history with where words can lead, and it isn't actually centered on Jews at all. Jews are merely the latest incarnation of words leading to deeds. The invention of the printing press and events like the Thirty Years War and St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre laid a bloody groundwork to your whole continent. Over here we are by no means better people, far from it, but we are a bunch of minorities who in general are not going to start killing each other.
Okay, now I’m gonna climb down from my latest hobby horse and finish with:

The article you reference seems to me to be a frank acknowledgement that there is an issue. Maybe the issue got fomented from anti-Labourites. Maybe not. But the best way out is through. Talk it out. Talk some more. You’ve got some pretty erudite folks over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 01:53 AM

Steve had it right when he said, “ Dig deeper and ditch your prejudices“. That’s essential if we are to ‘Talk it out. Talk some more’. And it applies to everyone on all sides. In my experience, those who scream ‘prejudice’ and ‘bigot’ are just as likely to be prejudiced and bigoted as anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM

Backwoodsman:
I agree. But it isn't easy and that's why a lot of talk goes by. It's better than hitting, most of the time. Reminds me of all those Confederate statues coming down about now. Part of me is thinking: "Hey it took 155 years after the end of the (American) Civil War to get those statues down, but at least it's being done without bloodshed". Another part of me is thinking, "Hey if we could have prevented the statues going up in the first place how good would that have been!".

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

I probably won't comment much in this thread, because it is, according to the title, about the Labour Party, not the wider issues, and by and large it is those wider issues that matter more to me.

For example, my daughter has joined the Women's Equality Party. This party is, to the best of my knowledge, unique in the UK because they are perfectly happy for you to be a member of another party as well. While they would love to see themselves with an MP, they think their primarily role is a sort of lobby group, and if another party wants to steal their ideas, great.

So they have written this response to the mini budget. If Labour or the Conservatives even formulate a sensible rejection of these ideas, they will be happy that a dialogue has at least started.

And I agree: Labour needs to be talking to them, and the Greens, and others with well thought areas of concern. Not obsessing over internal matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 05:32 AM

DMcG:
Don't hold back from posting because of the thread title.
As the previous thread has been closed this will become the de facto single UK politics thread. As such the title is immaterial.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 06:05 AM

The important issue for me is that we put equality at the heart of our movement which has the largest membership of any political party in the UK. However, beneath this there are those who align themselves to factions who will attack any policy that leads to equality at the expense of their 'grievance'. The most obvious conflicting grievances should be clear to everyone - and I do not intend the fuel the debate on specifics. That is something for another thread.

They problem is that because in our hearts we are an inclusive party, if we don't come across as perfect we are slated as an 'evil' and this results is people in the ballot box turning away.

In the end, it is easier to go down the line followed by the tories who gain political capital by promoting division. If Labour did that, then they lose one hard working activist.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 06:35 AM

The vast majority of the electorate do not belong to any political party and probably have little interest in the internal shenanigans of any of the various parties.

Come an election, I am starting to think that a lot of people vote for the least worse party rather than the best party. I think it is definitely the case that a lot of voters do not agree with every item in a party's manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 07:39 AM

The trouble with Labour obsessing over internal matters is that it's actually an external matter too, made so by the print media and the dark forces of the various advocates for Israel. Tony Blair overcame the first of those by getting into bed with Rupert Murdoch. He was helped by the fact that he was served up a string of fifth-rate Tory leaders for years. In addition, he was very pro-Israel, so there was no conflict in the party between the leadership and Labour Friends Of Israel (Does anyone really think that there were fewer "antisemites" in the party then than now?). You could wring your hands in despair, thinking that the only way to get Labour back in power is to do a total Blair sellout. Even if you did think that way, the current man is totally bereft of the personal attributes that made Blair successful, so not only would you not see Labour in power, you'd have ditched your principles as well. The Guardian article I referred to last week about Roy Jenkins' achievements as Home Secretary (I was no fan, but he did what he did...) got me thinking that Labour has simply got to show the country that there's a better and more civilised way. We don't need to talk about antisemitism any more. We don't need detailed and tightly-costed manifestos, backed by daft slogans, that are grist to the mill of the Daily Mail and Express. We need vision, and now above all is the time for a sea-change of direction. Don't ask me for details. I've just waved goodbye to my son and family after a full-on, noisy week, which was a real treat after the last few months, and I'm knackered...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 08:08 AM

It's certainly true that Labour has the largest party membership. This is from the House of Commons Library:

"As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members, compared to the Conservatives, who had 180,000 members. The SNP had around 125,500 members (December 2018), the Liberal Democrats 115,000 (August 2019), Green Party 48,500 (July 2019), UKIP 29,000 (April 2019) and Plaid Cymru 10,000 (October 2018)."

Obviously these numbers don't reflect how people voted at elections. Possibly Labour members have more of an emotional attachment to the "Movement" than do supporters of other parties, and are more likely to actually join the party.

These numbers are tiny compared with a total electorate of nearly 48 million. On the whole, most people aren't very interested in politics and certainly not in joining political parties. Perhaps we get the politicians we deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 10:30 AM

I know the answer to all of it. Firstly, Get rid of party politics. Each MP should be elected on their own merits. Second, 25% of MPs need to go to the polls every year. Different ones of course! Finally, the electorate should have more say but only if they can prove they have a full understanding of the issues and repercussions. Referendums on important issues with a serious exam before being allowed to vote.

Either all that or me as a benign dictator.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM

I will come to the point of this thread in future. But I've GOT to tell you all here in the early morning with the local TV on I just saw a political ad for a local orthopedic surgeon who is challenging one of our conservative Senators in the coming election. Showed him in fishing attire and prologue was how "he killed a grizzly that was sneaking up on him." Had to think of Davy Crockett who killed him a bar when he was only three. (I suspect Canadian politics might run this way in the West also).

Some stuff just doesn't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:14 AM

Steve:

Re your last post. I think most of us can agree most of the time that we need vision. There was a famous quote in the last millenium about Bush 1 and the "vision thing". As you know the devil is in the details. Not unlike belling the cat. But can we even agree on what is the cat?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 12:13 PM

Dave, without parties, you don't have an indication about how representatives will align themselves in parliament. At least with party politics their is an agreed line that people may choose to support or reject. But that also implies that the parties are honest with their election promises.

I have never been to a tory party meeting, and have no intention of ever doing so, but it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall to listen to what they talk about - eg the vested interests of hedge fund investors, the interests of property portfolio owners, and s***ing off the opposition compared with LP meetings where we subject our representatives to questioning and scrutiny or discuss social issues.

Following this further - could part of the problem be that there is a lack of vested interest discussion by those who a personally most affected by tory policy, and too much coming from an intellectual angle?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:48 PM

But if they had no party affiliation they could vote for their consience/constituents/country rather than for their party!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 03:15 PM

But without manifestos, how do people know what policy directions they are voting for. I am not convinced that in many cases people would not be electing people on the back of a single issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 03:45 PM

DtG - a simple obvious question..

What kind of people would most likely be able
to self-finance careers as independent MPs...???

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 04:45 PM

I think we need a party system, largely for the reasons given by SBS and pfr (bloody initials...). Without a decent party system you're in danger of throwing up a Putin or a Xi. I know they pretend to have parties, but they are not bona fide. One lot of pillocks genuinely holding another lot of pillocks to account is rather important I feel. In the perfect world, a Big Wise Person would be like a permanent referee, making sure that neither set of pillocks was cheating. We won't get that so we have to put up with something at least a bit devious and adversarial...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

Ah well. Back to my benign dictator dictatorship then.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:16 AM

You can be a benign dictator - as long as you do what I tell you ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:21 AM

The problem with benign dictatorships is in choosing them.

I give you Corby, crowing. (sic) And what do you get? Anti-semitism is made that bit easier to infiltrate. (Did I say a bit?) And Brexshit.

Yea Yea, give a no-hoper a chance to at least sup at the trough. I bet Frank Field is regretting that. Such an intelligent man normally.

But as I said at the time "How many elections did Michael Foot ever win?" or the wrong Milliband for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 10:17 AM

Benign dictatorship eh?

No, what you actually need is a Benevolent Dictator.

I, of course, would be the obvious choice for this position.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 12:11 PM

Which Miller Band should it have been? Glen or Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 03:55 AM

What is needed imo is a Labour party that can win an election and implement some aspects of socialism ,for example Railways and water company nationalisation., plus take us forward on green issues. I am not convinced that Starmer has the necessary charisma, he is good at debate, but that is about it imo

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM

I'm staying a member but rather fear we've just got Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Spot on. And look what happened to Miliband: in spite of all the hope invested in him, trounced by a man full of charisma. That is precisely what is likely to happen to Starmer. We've learned nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:39 AM

”We’ve learned nothing”

Speak for yourself.

Some of us have at least learned that Corbyn - himself extremely deficient in the charisma-department - was a disaster who took the LP to its worst defeat in living memory, and that replacing him with more of the same is very unlikely to bring any sort of improvement. To be fair, some of us knew it all along but, supported him out of respect for his being the democratically-elected leader.

None of the three candidates in the final vote for the leadership were exactly charismatic though, were they? Lisa Nandy - my preference - seems to be a good thinker, but comes across as ‘rather dull and boring‘, RL-B is undoubtedly a good Socialist but has the personality of a breeze-block, Starmer is sharp and incisive in debate, a thinker, but otherwise just a man in a (posh) suit.

So, if you’re suggesting that the leader’s charisma will be an important - perhaps the most important - element in the fight for success at the next election, and that Starmer lacks that level of charisma, then on the basis of charisma-content, who would you choose to replace him?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM

the imporant issue is winning the next election and the tories losing it, they might do this because of economic situation [hard to predict precisely]i think the most likely otcome is a lib lab coaltion, that might suit starmer ,because in my opinion he belongs in the liberal party,i agree that is better than a conservative government, but it still[ i speculate] does not produce what i want to see renationalisation of railways nationalisation of water companies. ecological encouragement for alternative energy.
if i had a choice of long furlough bailey or starmer,, i suppose long bailey, but i do accept what you have to say about both being poor candidates[charisma and image wise].i make my decision on the basis that both have faults but long bailey even in coalition would push for more of what i want from the labour party.
i think they both are about equal in lack of charisma and both will do a little better than Corbyn because of the lack of interference from the brexit parties.Possibly a woman might be better than a man? i am not sur.
Corbyn was imo defeated mainly because the pact between ukip the tories and brexit party. Starmers stength is debate, but i doubt if that alone is sufficient, he may be lucky and do better because he will not be up against an electoral pact.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:26 AM

I agree with you about the UKIP/Tory/BP pact, but Corbyn was also the architect of his own doom because - back to pfr’s theme for this thread - he failed to nail the ‘antisemitism’ accusations, failed to deal with the ‘friend of the Terrorists’ accusations, and failed to find a way to show the Tory Proaganda Campaign for what it was - character-assassination on a grand scale.

Well the ‘friend of the Terrorists’ nonsense has hopefully gone away with Corbyn, and Starmer appears to be trying to deal with the ‘antisemitism’ stuff by jumping on anyone and anything that could conceivably be hi-jacked by the Tories and their Israeli friends and used evidence of antisemitism within the party. That may not please the fans of those who are jumped on, but you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:07 AM

but you can’t make an omelette without breaking an egg or two.
but you can make an eggshibition of oneself whilst so doing ., and geta potential rival on to the back benches... Starmer is exhibiting an image that he wants us to believe that he is a strong man, personally i think by the time the next election comes round this will be a red herring, and more important things will concern the electorate , of course i could be wrong. rebecca long furlough bailey could be in for a long furlough on the back benches

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

I think it is a sad fact that unless a prospective leader looks good on television and can operate almost entirely through "sound-bites" he or she has little chance of ending up as Prime Minister.

That, I'm afraid, is the reality of politics in the UK today.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:17 AM

Saying that he failed to nail the antisemitism issue is like saying that he failed to nail jelly to the wall. So far, all the signs are that the antisemitism issue is fully in hands of the pro-Israel forces, mostly outside the party. He might manage to shut up the scumbags such as Smeeth, Hodge, Mann and Ellman, but you can bet your life that the Board of Deputies and the other pro-Israel groups are now rubbing their hands with glee now that the real power is in their hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:18 AM

You could be right, Dick. But I strongly suspect that, after a suitable period In The Naughty Corner to allow her to, as my old mum used to say, “think about what she’s done”, he’ll have her back on the front bench. And quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:20 AM

So Steve, your recommendation to replace him is...??

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:41 AM

My dream ticket months ago was all-women, Becky Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner. Neither is the finished article, but they are a damn sight fresher that Starmer and my strong feeling is that they would have rapidly grown into the jobs. And Boris doesn't like unpredictable women against him, if you know what I mean. Since you asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 02:33 PM

Yes Steve, I did ask, because identifying a problem is the easy bit - coming up with a solution is what’s difficult and what takes all the careful, unprejudiced consideration.

During fifty years in industry, mostly in senior financial and management positions, I insisted on one Golden Rule, given to me by my first MD back in the ‘60s, to be in operation in all my meetings - that anyone who brings a perceived problem to the table must also bring a proposed solution for discussion. No solution, no problem, period. And it was very successful in keeping the shit-stirrers under control.

So, presumably you’re content that RL-B and AR have the charisma to overcome the Tory Propaganda Machine (quiet at the moment but, trust me, ready and only too willing to crank up to full volume as the next GE looms) and the Boris-Bluster (which, judging by comments I’ve seen in the media, is regarded by some voters as one of Johnson’s best vote-catching characteristics)?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 03:23 PM

"your recommendation to replace him is...??"

I'll kick off with...

A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...

might have a lot of the qualities and charisma needed to win back
working class ex Labour voters from the far right...

..though some of the constituent parts I suggest
might alienate a few potential converts back to labour...

.. and perhaps a few current Labour supporters...???

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:04 PM

”A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...“

Errrrmm...which regiment did you say you were in, pfr? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:37 PM

He's bloody good but you'd have to recruit him, pfr...

Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask. As I said, they would grow into the jobs. There's no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy. Johnson is a misogynist, and, as such, he would be no match for them. Two good socialist women against a burnt-out Tory fatty? No contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:55 PM

"you'd have to recruit him, pfr"


Who said it has to be a bloke...!!!???

...or even human...

we're getting to the stage where an AI avatar could replace most politicians...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:06 PM

Shit. Thought you meant Alexei Sayle, then I realised he's not a military veteran...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 05:32 PM

”Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask.”

Well, that’s an opinion, Steve, to which you are unarguably entitled. I guess it’s down to the individual’s view of what constitutes ‘charisma’. We obviously set different standards in that respect.

”As I said, they would grow into the jobs.“

Or they might crash and burn. Sweeping predictions can come back to bite those who make them in the gluteus maximus. Only time and opportunity could be the judges. Until then, it’s just a guess.

.”there’s no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy”

I absolutely agree on the first part, as did the 56% of voters who gave Starmer their vote in the leadership election - more than Nandy and Long-Bailey together, effectively a landslide.

With regard to the second ‘Lisa Nandy’ part, out of respect for the OP I’m trying to have an intelligent, adult discussion here. Just for once, could you do the same please, and refrain from your standard, below-the-belt, snidey attempts at provocation when you’re not getting your own way. I’d appreciate that very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM

”A straight talking fairly sweary youngish middle aged working class Left wing Jewish military veteran stand up comedian...“


-------:-------


...Thought you meant Alexei Sayle, ....


Alexei Sayle has been eligible for a free bus pass for a good few years now. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, 'youngish middle aged' would be someone in their late 40s but Alexei is beyond middle age of any sort.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 08:26 PM

I know, Doug, but I admit that I sort of glossed over pfr's post and ever so slightly misinterpreted... Though wouldn't Alexei be good?! One thing's for sure: he wouldn't stand for all this fake antisemitism shite, not for one second!

Sorry, John, but my opinion on Lisa Nandy has been consistent for a very long time, and your advocacy of her does not disqualify me from saying what I think of her. In several posts, a longish time ago now, I've said that she is a divisive figure in the party, having briefed against Corbyn consistently, and that I think she's a political lightweight. I'm very glad that she got nowhere in the leadership election (even though she comes from my town and went to the same school as my sister). As for charisma and taking risks, well I think that taking risks is exactly what the party should be doing right now in the unexpected circumstances we find ourselves in. There will never be a better time. Playing safe with Keir is a copout, and the Tories must be in seventh heaven in these populist times that we've chosen such a grey man. Anyway, I'm never bitter when "I can't get my way." Life's not like that. I hope your bellyache settles soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Steve, I guess I’m still suffering from ‘Jim-Lag’, whose ranting at and about me I found very insulting and hurtful (I also have feelings, y’know!), and I’m still kinda instinctively reacting to his kind of vitriol, even when it’s not there in your posts! Pax on that?

Well, we’re never going to agree about RL-B, who I see as a very good brain, a first-class back-room girl and shadow-cabinet-member, but too wooden in her public oratory style to make a leader. So let’s agree to disagree, eh?

Regarding ‘fake antisemitism shite’, I agree that there’s unlikely to be any more antisemitism in the LP than in any other party, but there’s been a protracted propaganda campaign aimed at shit slinging at the LP, and you know what they say about shit, don’t you - some of it inevitably sticks. And I’m fairly sure that, because of that campaign, there’s a perception amongst the voting public that the party is antisemitic, and it’s this perception that any leader needs to quash. Well, there’s more than one way to swing a cat, and perhaps Starmer’s policy is to silence any comments that any enemy of the party could conceivably latch on to as being evidence of antisemitism and use it in the inevitable pre-election re-run of the Tory Propaganda Campaign? It’s a tactic. Maybe not a tactic you’d agree with, but neither of us have the insider knowledge of what goes on in Westminster currently.

Only time will tell, but it’s just a thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM

Ben Elton?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM

Could do worse! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:02 AM

50 years ago I'd have said Bill Shankly (aka God). :-) Even Fergie was a bit of a leftie but, like Sir Keir, he was rather too adept at ditching brilliant people a bit precipitously (ask Beckham, Cantona and Van Nistelrooy - they are Fergie's RLBs. He still succeeded, but then again he had masses of charisma and he took absolutely no shit from the media).

There's no time like the present, under these extraordinary circumstances, to do something different. Corbyn got rid of good people too, lest we forget. It didn't work and it doesn't shut people up. Stand up and call it like it is. That's why I mistakenly thought that pfr was referring to Alexei. No pusillanimous apologies for stuff that doesn't need apologising for, tell the truth loud and clear and tell the bloody naysayers where to get off. Read his wiki entry. Fierce honesty always shines through eventually, I feel. Well, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:27 AM

Steve, I don’t regard an apology as an indication of lack of courage - precisely the opposite, it’s a very good indicator of a genuine strength of character. Any self-opinionated fool can dig his heels in and refuse to recognise his error - it takes strength and an innate self-confidence to admit error and apologise.

Shame others don’t understand that indisputable fact. Those who doubt it should read this...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:35 AM

None of the three candidates in the final vote for the leadership were exactly charismatic though, were they?

It is the way of the world, politically at the moment.

Let's face it. Starmer seems to have some gravitas. A good foil for the incumbent at  Haystack Central . Think back to a previous populist PM. Wilson exuded rightness yet was an adulterer (with Marcia) - I know because someone who told me his father was the solicitor who brokered the deal about Mrs Wilson's book of poems, in return for a facade of theatrical, homely normality, in the face of Wilson's philandering. And, by all accounts, his sincerity was a sham. He smoked cigars, not the pipe he used as a thespian prop.
Compared to Alec Douglas-Home who came across as an upper class twit, yet apparently was sincere.

At least these days what you see is (nearly) what you get. And we can rejoice in the knowledge that their intended persona is badly engineered.

Now if COVID went on for 6 years at the same level as WWII we would have consensus politics. Yet we hope it doesn't. What irony!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 09:37 AM

On the anti-semitism question, wasn't the Labour leader before Corbyn Jewish?

Do we live in the age of short memories?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

Being Jewish ain't sufficient...
Being Jewish on the left or right makes the real meaningful difference.

What Labour needed/needs is leftish Jews with real fighting spirit...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 12:46 PM

"Did you just call me a 'self hating' Jew...!!!???"

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

Apologising - or, worse, being forced to apologise - for something that doesn't need apologising for shows lack of courage. The pro-Israel lobbyists and the Board Of Deputies will soon cotton on to you for doing that, and will strike when the time is right, just before the next election, for example. Don't think that this "Labour antisemitism" stuff is going away any time soon. It's far too useful a weapon for keeping Labour out of power for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Steve, read my post again - I never mentioned apologising ‘for something that doesn’t need apologising for’. I clearly and specifically spoke about apologising when one is in the wrong.

Please don’t twist my words, that’s one of Jim’s dishonest tactics - I like to think you’re better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 02:49 PM

.. just saying...


A couple of decades ago..
A weak cowardly Community Folk History project manager,
once tried to force me into making a public apology
to false allegations of verbal bullying,
contrived by a vain manipulative treacherous old tory and her henchwomen
on the volunteers committee..

The manager had previously confided to me,
she was being made ill by that old tory's constant complaints, interfering, and petty accusations...

I felt betrayed, and angry, so refused..

.. and the result of my defiance, was unemployment and loss of earnings...

The old tory got what she wanted, me replaced by a minion more to her political approval;
and her also taking credit and local glory for all my ideas and work..

.. and she still continued bullying the pathetic manager...

[that's my version of events, and I'm sticking to it...]

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:15 PM

But you stuck to your principles.

So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John? It seems to me that the actions as well as the words of Keir Starmer amount to apologising for past "misdemeanours" in the party. My firm view is that he shouldn't be doing that. I'm a member of the party because, compared to other outfits, the Labour Party, in spite of its faults and frequent outbursts of naivety and amateurism, is a shining beacon of virtue and principle. And I note that the chief rabbi is out there today knocking social media. Watch that space. I've told you: these people don't go away. And start apologising for mythical issues and they'll go away all the slower.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 06:44 PM

.. unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...

.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???

wot a shite existence...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:55 PM

You're not wrong, and that's precisely why we're in this global pickle...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:01 AM

”So who's in the wrong and needing to apologise for "antisemitism," John?“

I don’t know, Steve. I’m not a member of the PLP, I’m not even a member of the LP. I don’t know any Labour MPs personally, I have no knowledge of theIr true beliefs and private personal behaviours, I haven’t a clue about the things they say in private - have you?

“...unfortunately principles don't pay rent & bills...
.. and ruthless tories always seem to get their own way...???”

Precisely the reason why the leader of the party should clamp down on anyone who says anything that could conceivably be latched-onto by The Tory Propaganda Machine - the Goebbels Principle applies. Shit sticks, the disaster of the 2019 GE is undeniable proof of that. And I’ve lost count of the number of people who have told me they ‘couldn’t vote Labour at the last election because Corbyn is an anti-semite and a friend of the terrorists’. Yes, it’s shit, but shit sticks.

What I do know is that MPs are elected to serve the people of the United Kingdom, people who desperately need a Labour government. Labour MPs should be giving their full attention to the welfare of our own citizens and working towards ridding us of the worst, most corrupt, most destructive Tory government in living memory.

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:06 AM

Ooooops, pressed ‘Go’ too soon. Should have said....

That’s what every Labour supporter should be giving their full attention to. The time for challenging Israel will be when Labour is in Government and has some semblance of power. Right now, it’s just a toothless tiger.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 05:50 AM

Details of Keir Starmer's donors for his campaign for leader are now beginning to emerge and it makes interesting reading.

Because he was well off he was able to provide the money for his own campaign but accepted donations to cover his own outlay, but was not obliged to declare these until after the election unlike the two other candidates:-


https://medium.com/@pitt_bob/who-funded-keir-starmers-campaign-170a42b43fc0

The phrase "usual suspects" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

IF Starmer has Blairite support it seems like steve myself and jim , might have been right

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 10:34 AM

Dick - you are not one of a special smug gang of three..

WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..

So please stop this divisive friction...

Other than that, WE are on the same side, and I agree with you on the very positive posts
you've made in this thread...

As for Jim, his analysis was usually spot on correct.
But sadly, his increasingly obsessive intolerant personality was his ultimate downfall...

I'll miss his knowledge and the links he posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 11:33 AM

”WE ALL knew what starmer is, and what kind of blairite elitist politician he is..“

Precisely, pfr, but that’s immaterial - I didn’t want him either, but he is the democratically-elected leader by what, by any standard, was a landslide.

I wonder if the members and supporters of the Conservative and Unionist Party - you know, the party with a majority of 81 in the House of Commons, and which is funded by billionaire, tax-dodging ex-pats on a scale so enormous it puts Labour donations into the ‘sweetie-money’ category - are busily involving their party in public self-immolation over how their disgusting, racist, sexist leader and his stooge came to power?

Somehow, I doubt it. They’re too busy getting on with the business of crashing out of the EU without a trade deal, selling the NHS piecemeal, increasing austerity to further screw the ordinary Joes at the same time as they protect the interests of the immensely wealthy, collecting little nuggets to twist and use as ammunition in the inevitable pre-election Propaganda Campaign, yadda yadda. You know, all the important stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:38 PM

Yes, they do have the charisma, since you ask. As I said, they would grow into the jobs. There's no-one else even remotely on the horizon, certainly not Lisa Nandy. Johnson is a misogynist, and, as such, he would be no match for them. Two good socialist women against a burnt-out Tory fatty? No contest.
I wouldn't agree that Boris is "burnt out", and even if he is, under the current system there is no way that the left would be able to put up two opponents.

Doubtless you will explain away your comments as 'whimsey', or my comments as being "too literal", but it won't stop me from stopping your outrageous claims being allowed to stand unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 12:44 PM

I’m going to have to be very careful, I’m beginning to find my centre-left views (or, as Jim would probably describe them, ‘Right-Wing) closer to Nigel’s than Steve’s, Jim’s, and Dick’s.

Very, very worrying...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:04 PM

As I'm a product of 1960s and 70s hippy and punk counter culture,
I'm a bit allergic to being categorised..

I'm obviously some sort of lefty..

Voting Labour is in my old fashioned working class family DNA,
and reinforced by half a century of my own serious political analysis..

But my views vary in degrees of left or right depending
on each separate important issue...

I'm definitely very left on social and employment issues,
but my stance on law 'n' order is hardline severe enough
to make most tories uncomfortable...

The worst thing in my opinion about voting Labour,
the main impediment to getting Labour to kick the tories out of power,
is the Labour Party...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 01:56 PM

I think you’re my brother by a different mother, pfr - you pretty much summed me up right there, on every point. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:07 PM

BWM - you old punk hippy [slightly righty] lefty...!!!

Next, Nigel and bonz admit they aren't really that different to us..???

Then Nigel lists his favourite punk LPs..

Life is sometimes full of surprises...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:11 PM

I am not convinced that Starmer will kick them out, does he appeal to sufficient working class voters, will blue collar brexiteers vote for him or johnson?i hope so but i would not put money on it, it could partly be how bad the economy is? then the system of voting does not help the labour party and liberal party split the centre and centre left and left vote in england in scotland how will the snp do will labour get back any scottish votes doubtful? or likely? hard to predioct at this stage

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 02:24 PM

The [selfish...???] Scots gave Labour a nasty nationalist kicking,
and it's been all downhill from then on...

Funnily enough, my Welsh Valleys mrs,
who is well into Celtic Girl Power,
truly believes Nicola Sturgeon would be the best Labour PM we'll never have...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jul 20 - 04:47 PM

Yep.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:06 AM

Nicola Sturgeon could also really help the Conservative party.
Although Th Conservative and Unionist Party doesn't want Scotland to separate from the UK (politically), if it did, The Conservatives would lose 6 MPs, but the total number of MPs would reduce by 59. That would make the Conservative majority in Parliament even greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

Wouldn’t there have to be a General Election in the remaining parts of the United Kingdom, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:12 AM

I mention it because the United Kingdom would no longer exist, nor would Great Britain. A new political union would, presumably, take the place of what we now recognise as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It seems reasonable to assume that a new political union would require a new government, does it not? In which case, you might be guilty above of counting your chickens before they hatch, don’cha think? If ‘a week is a long time in politics‘, you can be assured that several years is a very great deal longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 09:45 AM

I think in this instance Nigel is correct.

If Scotland were to leave the union we would see a conservative government in what remained of the UK for a considerable period.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

Well I think you might be right, Raggy. But for different reasons to the one Nigel seemed to be suggesting.

If I read Nigel right, he was suggesting that the 59 Scottish MPs would simply disappear into a black hole, leaving the balance of power between the English, Welsh, and Northern Ireland MPs precisely as it currently is. I’m suggesting that Scotland leaving the Union would necessarily result in the Union’s dissolution, and that with the formation of a new Union between England, Wales and NI, there would have to be an election to form a government.

Whilst I agree that, for one reason and another, we are unlikely to see a Labour government for quite some time, I believe that to expect an even larger Tory majority (as Nigel is apparently suggesting will be the case) is to count the chickens before they hatch.

Politics is a funny old business. Who, for instance, would have expected a mass defection amongst traditional Labour voters to the Tories? Having defected once, they could quite easily defect back, especially when they’ve seen the Tories’ disastrous handling of Covid-19 with its hugely disproportionate death-toll and the unemployment it will bring, plus their reaction remains to be seen when the true scale of the horror of Brexit becomes clear in a year or two.

The Tories’ tactics are always ‘Smash and Grab, then leave Labour to clear up the mess’ - I reckon we’re around half-way through the ‘Smash and Grab’ phase right about now, and the slide will begin after they’ve won the next GE, but with a reduced majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 10:38 AM

Politicians are ambitious by definition and nature..

Wonder how Sturgeon would react to this offer..

"You can be leader of an independent Scotland, or PM of the entire UK"...???

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:05 AM

Are you getting a lot of gaslighting over in the UK like the Trump folks do routinely here in the US? Our latest illustration of this was AG Barr appearing before Congress and lying through his teeth about things they asked. I didn't watch the whole thing, just excerpts, but I'm guessing he wasn't sworn in or he'd have been perjuring himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

Fingers crossed, pfr! ;-)

Although to be fair, my Border Terrier talks more sense than the Fat Blond Buffoon currently occupying 10, Downing Street. And he’s a lot better looking than Johnson too!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jul 20 - 12:18 PM

A Labour coalition govt with a pack of dogs,
couldn't be worse than the current occupant of 10 downing st,
and his cabinet...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 05:55 AM

Let me try again then, and keep it simple.
If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.
That would not be an easy task.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

I've never had any inclination to play "Fantasy Football",
but if I get the gist of the basics..

What about an expedient Labour / SNP coalition Govt..

With Sturgeon as PM, and starmer as deputy PM..???


Is it feasible under the rules, and could it work, at least long enough,
to kick the tories out of power...??????

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:54 AM

”If Scotland left the Union, then, even if there was an immediate election, the opposition would have to overturn a majority of 130+ rather than the current majority of 80+.“

I’ll also try again and, as you failed to understand last time, I’ll also keep it simple...

If, and it’s a very big ‘if’, Scotland left the Union, it wouldn’t be for at least a couple of years. A lot can happen in a couple of years, and forecasting the result of an ensuing general election at least two years ahead goes well beyond even the most optimistic crystal-ball-gazing.

I’m in Scotland on holiday next August. Could you weave your magical skills as a soothsayer and tell me what the weather will be doing - it’s only a year ahead, should be simple for someone with your powers. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 02:58 AM

trump could claim to be the true King of Scotland,
and build an extension to Hannibal's Wall..

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 03:02 AM

..errrmm.. of course I meant Hadrian's Wall...

There's too many walls named after ancient blokes beginning with an H...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 20 - 06:36 AM

One Nun Dead!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM

Proposed legislative amendments om enforcing Operation Brock

A very dull title, and I see they are proposals, not actual amendments, but there are some quite significant things in this. It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period. Some things, like a reduction in the capacity of the M20 to two lanes, with the other a queueing area, have been around a long time, but that it is proposed to last until October 2021 (and possibly renewed then) is confirmed here. The problems of dealing with "fresh and live products can lose between 30 to 60% of their value within 1 to 2 days)" is also recognised, as a priority system proposed (with, of course, a corresponding delay for other users.)

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 06:00 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:16 AM

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen. Some responsibility must be with the driver. Otherwise the lorry driver who had 39 Vietnamese dead in his refrigerated lorry would not have been prosecuted.
The forwarder is responsible for completing the paperwork, but the driver is responsible for presenting it. I would imagine that the paperwork provided by the freight forwarder is done so electronically, and checked automatically at the time of completion. A paper copy would then accompany the shipment (driver).

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:24 AM

Of course it should be noted:

"SF is an online service for the RoRo freight industry BEING
developed by the government. The service will help to simplify and automate the process of establishing the border-readiness of an HCV to help mitigate the risk of delays."

and

"While the SF portal’s traffic light system would be advisory across the country, we propose to make its use enforceable in Kent. This is because of the particular disruption risks at the Short Straits if levels of border-readiness are low – widespread use of SF has the potential to significantly to mitigate this risk."

and

"A viable border-readiness regime is critical to maintaining the flow of traffic at the border after the end of the transition period. While upstream declarations using the SF portal with compliance and enforcement in Kent is our preferred option, we must develop contingency plans in case the SF service is unavailable (for example, due to post-deployment IT failure in 2021)."

We live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!
This is because the document that you cite: "Proposed legislative amendments on enforcing Operation Brock" is well titled. It deals with changes to "Operation Brock", which is the planned traffic management system in Kent for use in the event of a no-deal Brexit", and so is not relative to other areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:33 AM

I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen.

All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it, except in so far it is determinations whether it is a priority permit or or normal one.    Secondly, this is an electronic system: the master is the electronic record - eg for ANPR - not the paper one.   In most cases, while the driver could write anything he or she fancies on any paper record, it is the electronic one that counts, and my guess is that very few of them have access to that. But even if they have, make it an offence to alter the record. Then the person who issues it gets fined if it is not issued correctly, and the driver gets fined if they commit the sort of offences you list. It may be ignorance or lack of imagination on my part, but I can't think of another case where the legal responsibility is on one person, and no penalty at all on them if they breach the rules, but there is a penalty on the person who may not even have a right of access to the system. It seems an exceptionally odd arrangement to me.


Think of a simple case: some admin clerk mistypes the licence plate. I pick that as an example because it happened to my wife her car insurance and she was detained for nearly two hours because she was thought to have no insurance. SO that can happen. The consequence under this law: the driver gets fined.

As for the Operation Brook comment: yes, I know it only details with Dover. That means similar things are needed for Portsmouth, and Southampton, and Liverpool and Shields and all the rest. My comment was not that the document is not wide enough. It was that many more such documents will also be required to adequately deal with congestion at ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:03 AM

The fact is that the vast majority of ro/ro traffic comes/goes through Dover and Eurotunnel. With the other ports having to deal with much less traffic, they will not experience the same problems that are found in Kent.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:23 AM

I agree Dover is the main problem, Rain Dog. That does not mean the others will not be, especially if other routes are used to reduce any delays at Dover.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:24 AM

All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it,
Try reading it again. It is not a 'permit to travel, having nothing to do with cargo". We are talking about paperwork completed by a "freight forwarder". The word "freight" refers to goods, not persons.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM

It is a permit for the vehicle to travel.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

To elaborate: what I meant when I said the cargo is not relevant I meant it did not matter whether the cargo is washing machines, or bedsheets, or other non-perishables (for low priority goods); it does matter that it is cargo: it does not matter what the cargo is (except for prioritisation for certain items.)

What the cargo is is covered by other legislation and regulation, not this document.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:38 AM

It is highly unlikely that other routes will be used to reduce any delays at Dover. It has been a good few years since any services ran from Folkestone or Ramsgate. Even if they resurrected that half baked idea of running ferries from Ramsgate, you would still have the problem of the vehicles entering Kent.

Ports further west from Dover have the problem with the length of sailing time. They could in theory put on extra ferries but that will depend on costs etc.

When I first started in the business, ferries from Dover ran to Calais, Boulogne, Dunkerque, Zeebrugge, Ostend. Nowadays they just run to Calais and Dunkerque.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM

How does this relate to the future direction of the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 10:31 AM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM
How does this relate to the future direction of the Labour Party?
Clearly it doesn't. But while there is a restriction of only one thread discussing UK politics, any discussion of UK politics should find its way to that one thread, irrespective of the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 12:01 PM

I agree with Nigel here. I posted earlier that I did not expect post often to this thread because of the title. I am generally sticking to that, but if there is an interesting Brexit-related event, where else can we post it without starting a separate thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 01:24 PM

I started this thread with the expectation it would be closed within a few days..

It was only intended to test the waters,
until the next general misc UK politics thread rose from the ashes...


So, no problems.. everyone feel free to use this thread for that general purpose...

AS long as any posts aren't too long winded and boring to read
when I've just got out of bed opening my bleary eyes......

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM

I think now that the main culprits of ad infinitum arguing are no longer able to post here it would ne reasonable to allow multiple British politics threads to reflect what is being discussed. Just my opinion of course and we would need to run it by the moderation team.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 01:32 PM

DtG - I'll agree - I've always favoured the format of shorter topical single issue threads,
where posters present lucid pertinent points for sensible discussion...

Finishing when the discussion reaches it's limit,
to move onto a new thread reacting to fresher political events..

Life's too short for rambling repetitive personalised circular arguing just for the sake of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 02:05 AM

I'll PM Barb'ry and run it by her.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 09:41 AM

hello all, has someone else been culled while i've been away on our new canal boat - without my lap top or newspapers? ach well, i'm giving up - or trying t0 - the party political shenanigans for a while. i just don't need the daily aggravation on the media. i remain a socialist, green, environmemtal and animal rights supporter. i'm going to devote my time to reading more, clearing spaces of himalayan balsam and ---sadly, going back to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 10:21 AM

We were at Clifton country park near Manchester yesterday we it's full of Indian balsam. Is that the same as Himalayan?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Probably. It's a menace on riverbanks because it can completely take over, then dies away completely in winter leaving only seeds, exposing the river bank to erosion. It's typically five or six feet tall with pink flowers that look a bit like dangly slippers. These are followed by oval, ribbed seed pods that burst open when touched once they're ripe, shooting the seeds out several feet. The plant has a fairly unpleasant smell when en masse. A definite undesirable alien. River and canal banks in the north of England are a particular stronghold. Some people call it policeman's helmet, but they're just bellends...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 11:52 AM

Yea, sounds like the same stuff. It was probably planted by Jeremy Corbyn :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 07:13 PM

Not unless Jezza was going in 1839.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 02:25 AM

He must have been if the Daily Mail says it was him :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 02:35 AM

no problem now that i am here (hebden bridge) to eridacate his poisonous legacy. well, a wee bit. i'm not proud but we have other immigrants around - mink, (the rodent not the whale) (that would be minke obviously) (why am i thinking of peter sellers?) and grey squirrels that i'm not keen on either. will also try and get rid of their new and apparently orrible tory mp.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM

We'll have to meet up for a pint when it's safe to do so, Pete. Haworth? We can both get the bus there. PM me if you fancy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 20 - 06:15 PM

As Dominic Cummings is back in the news, interfering as he's been doing in the defence review, it seems timely to post this, especially as it's a music website. Slightly out of date, admittedly. Sing this to the tune of Old McDonald...

By the way, it was written by a friend of a friend of a friend who is in a poetry club...

Ahem...

Dominic drove to Daddy’s farm
Ee -i, ee-i, o
He took his sick wife and his bairn
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a cough-cough here,
And a sore throat there;
Here a cough, there a cough,
Everywhere a cough-cough.
Dominic drove to Daddy’s farm,
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Daddy’s farm was quite a jaunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o
But on that farm lived his son’s aunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With some child-care here,
And some child-care there;
Here a niece, there a niece,
Everywhere a nice niece.
Daddy’s farm was quite a jaunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic started feeling ill
Ee -i, ee-i, o
It was Covid19, not some chill
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a virus here,
And a virus there;
Go to bed! Go to bed!
Got a very sore head.
Dominic started feeling ill
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic thought his eyesight poor
Ee -i, ee-i, o
So drove his car just to make quite sure
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a pee stop here,
And a picnic there;
Here a pee, there a pic,
Everywhere a picnic.
Dominic thought his eyesight poor
Ee -i, ee-i, o


Dominic’s home with child and spouse
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Living in their London house
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With the flashlights here,
And the tabloids there;
Here a flash, there a flash,
Everywhere’s a flash-dash.
Dominic’s home with wife and spouse,
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic went to meet the press
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Said he had nothing to confess
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Made good judgements here,
Made good judgements there;
Here a judge, there a judge,
Everywhere a good judge.
Dominic went to meet the press
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic’s back at work again
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Running things from Number 10
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With quick fib here,
And a quick fib there;
Here a fib, there a fib,
Fibbing gaily ad lib.
Dominic’s back at work again
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 01:02 AM

Any chance I could borrow that piece to reproduce elsewhere, Steve? I’ll be very happy to credit the writer...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:11 PM

Oh well, at least we got our blue passports...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 03:57 PM

im concerned about the opposition to this disastrous government. locally, there is nothing happening. at constituency - tory/far right council - there is chaos or nothing happening. nationally? there is nothing to inspire a demoralised and worried left/progressive constituency. no fightback. no cultural or politically lively or inspiring messages. keir starmer is forensic? great. but just for 15 minutes a week when the government can be arsed to turn up in parliament. boris johnson should be handed his lazy, corrupt arse on a plate every fucking day - . i'm demoralised and trying to give up on this shit show, i've had enough of being defeated for over 40 years - but surely there is something happening? what would joe strummer do?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 08:18 PM

Joe moved to live near Bridgwater, the only real rebel lefty stronghold in very tory zummerzet..


..then dropped dead...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 08:21 PM

Not too far from where my mum has voted Labour for over 60 years,
and never seen them ever win a local seat in government...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 02:58 AM

yes, he really went for it at full speed for years then died after taking his dogs for a walk. maybe that's a lesson - keep up the fight or take a rest and risk dying peacefully. maybe i'll just slide away while pulling up himalayan balsam by the rochdale canal. i'd be safer up a tree fighting the ridiculous HS2 development.