BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM

Proposed legislative amendments om enforcing Operation Brock

A very dull title, and I see they are proposals, not actual amendments, but there are some quite significant things in this. It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period. Some things, like a reduction in the capacity of the M20 to two lanes, with the other a queueing area, have been around a long time, but that it is proposed to last until October 2021 (and possibly renewed then) is confirmed here. The problems of dealing with "fresh and live products can lose between 30 to 60% of their value within 1 to 2 days)" is also recognised, as a priority system proposed (with, of course, a corresponding delay for other users.)

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 06:00 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:16 AM

But my favourite line was when the HGV has incorrect paperwork "Enforcement would be against the driver, rather than the haulier or freight forwarder who has formal responsibility for completing the customs paperwork" -- that's nice.   I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen. Some responsibility must be with the driver. Otherwise the lorry driver who had 39 Vietnamese dead in his refrigerated lorry would not have been prosecuted.
The forwarder is responsible for completing the paperwork, but the driver is responsible for presenting it. I would imagine that the paperwork provided by the freight forwarder is done so electronically, and checked automatically at the time of completion. A paper copy would then accompany the shipment (driver).

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:24 AM

Of course it should be noted:

"SF is an online service for the RoRo freight industry BEING
developed by the government. The service will help to simplify and automate the process of establishing the border-readiness of an HCV to help mitigate the risk of delays."

and

"While the SF portal’s traffic light system would be advisory across the country, we propose to make its use enforceable in Kent. This is because of the particular disruption risks at the Short Straits if levels of border-readiness are low – widespread use of SF has the potential to significantly to mitigate this risk."

and

"A viable border-readiness regime is critical to maintaining the flow of traffic at the border after the end of the transition period. While upstream declarations using the SF portal with compliance and enforcement in Kent is our preferred option, we must develop contingency plans in case the SF service is unavailable (for example, due to post-deployment IT failure in 2021)."

We live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM

Rather than "It is all about dealing with the impact of the end of the Brexit transition period" I should perhaps have said one of a myriad of issues at the end of the transition period. t doesn't even address how other ports will be affected. I would hate anyone think this was all there was to it!
This is because the document that you cite: "Proposed legislative amendments on enforcing Operation Brock" is well titled. It deals with changes to "Operation Brock", which is the planned traffic management system in Kent for use in the event of a no-deal Brexit", and so is not relative to other areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:33 AM

I am responsible, but you get fined.
Seems reasonable to me. The responsibility for completing the paperwork may be with one person (the freight forwarder) but they cannot be present on every vehicle to ensure that all the paperwork is retained, unaltered, and that no additions/subtraction of cargo happen.

All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it, except in so far it is determinations whether it is a priority permit or or normal one.    Secondly, this is an electronic system: the master is the electronic record - eg for ANPR - not the paper one.   In most cases, while the driver could write anything he or she fancies on any paper record, it is the electronic one that counts, and my guess is that very few of them have access to that. But even if they have, make it an offence to alter the record. Then the person who issues it gets fined if it is not issued correctly, and the driver gets fined if they commit the sort of offences you list. It may be ignorance or lack of imagination on my part, but I can't think of another case where the legal responsibility is on one person, and no penalty at all on them if they breach the rules, but there is a penalty on the person who may not even have a right of access to the system. It seems an exceptionally odd arrangement to me.


Think of a simple case: some admin clerk mistypes the licence plate. I pick that as an example because it happened to my wife her car insurance and she was detained for nearly two hours because she was thought to have no insurance. SO that can happen. The consequence under this law: the driver gets fined.

As for the Operation Brook comment: yes, I know it only details with Dover. That means similar things are needed for Portsmouth, and Southampton, and Liverpool and Shields and all the rest. My comment was not that the document is not wide enough. It was that many more such documents will also be required to adequately deal with congestion at ports.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:03 AM

The fact is that the vast majority of ro/ro traffic comes/goes through Dover and Eurotunnel. With the other ports having to deal with much less traffic, they will not experience the same problems that are found in Kent.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:23 AM

I agree Dover is the main problem, Rain Dog. That does not mean the others will not be, especially if other routes are used to reduce any delays at Dover.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:24 AM

All I can say it does not sound reasonable to me. Firstly, this is a permit to travel: cargo is not relevant to it,
Try reading it again. It is not a 'permit to travel, having nothing to do with cargo". We are talking about paperwork completed by a "freight forwarder". The word "freight" refers to goods, not persons.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM

It is a permit for the vehicle to travel.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

To elaborate: what I meant when I said the cargo is not relevant I meant it did not matter whether the cargo is washing machines, or bedsheets, or other non-perishables (for low priority goods); it does matter that it is cargo: it does not matter what the cargo is (except for prioritisation for certain items.)

What the cargo is is covered by other legislation and regulation, not this document.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:38 AM

It is highly unlikely that other routes will be used to reduce any delays at Dover. It has been a good few years since any services ran from Folkestone or Ramsgate. Even if they resurrected that half baked idea of running ferries from Ramsgate, you would still have the problem of the vehicles entering Kent.

Ports further west from Dover have the problem with the length of sailing time. They could in theory put on extra ferries but that will depend on costs etc.

When I first started in the business, ferries from Dover ran to Calais, Boulogne, Dunkerque, Zeebrugge, Ostend. Nowadays they just run to Calais and Dunkerque.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM

How does this relate to the future direction of the Labour Party?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 10:31 AM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM
How does this relate to the future direction of the Labour Party?
Clearly it doesn't. But while there is a restriction of only one thread discussing UK politics, any discussion of UK politics should find its way to that one thread, irrespective of the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 12:01 PM

I agree with Nigel here. I posted earlier that I did not expect post often to this thread because of the title. I am generally sticking to that, but if there is an interesting Brexit-related event, where else can we post it without starting a separate thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 01:24 PM

I started this thread with the expectation it would be closed within a few days..

It was only intended to test the waters,
until the next general misc UK politics thread rose from the ashes...


So, no problems.. everyone feel free to use this thread for that general purpose...

AS long as any posts aren't too long winded and boring to read
when I've just got out of bed opening my bleary eyes......

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM

I think now that the main culprits of ad infinitum arguing are no longer able to post here it would ne reasonable to allow multiple British politics threads to reflect what is being discussed. Just my opinion of course and we would need to run it by the moderation team.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 01:32 PM

DtG - I'll agree - I've always favoured the format of shorter topical single issue threads,
where posters present lucid pertinent points for sensible discussion...

Finishing when the discussion reaches it's limit,
to move onto a new thread reacting to fresher political events..

Life's too short for rambling repetitive personalised circular arguing just for the sake of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 02:05 AM

I'll PM Barb'ry and run it by her.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 09:41 AM

hello all, has someone else been culled while i've been away on our new canal boat - without my lap top or newspapers? ach well, i'm giving up - or trying t0 - the party political shenanigans for a while. i just don't need the daily aggravation on the media. i remain a socialist, green, environmemtal and animal rights supporter. i'm going to devote my time to reading more, clearing spaces of himalayan balsam and ---sadly, going back to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 10:21 AM

We were at Clifton country park near Manchester yesterday we it's full of Indian balsam. Is that the same as Himalayan?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Probably. It's a menace on riverbanks because it can completely take over, then dies away completely in winter leaving only seeds, exposing the river bank to erosion. It's typically five or six feet tall with pink flowers that look a bit like dangly slippers. These are followed by oval, ribbed seed pods that burst open when touched once they're ripe, shooting the seeds out several feet. The plant has a fairly unpleasant smell when en masse. A definite undesirable alien. River and canal banks in the north of England are a particular stronghold. Some people call it policeman's helmet, but they're just bellends...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 11:52 AM

Yea, sounds like the same stuff. It was probably planted by Jeremy Corbyn :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 07:13 PM

Not unless Jezza was going in 1839.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 02:25 AM

He must have been if the Daily Mail says it was him :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 02:35 AM

no problem now that i am here (hebden bridge) to eridacate his poisonous legacy. well, a wee bit. i'm not proud but we have other immigrants around - mink, (the rodent not the whale) (that would be minke obviously) (why am i thinking of peter sellers?) and grey squirrels that i'm not keen on either. will also try and get rid of their new and apparently orrible tory mp.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM

We'll have to meet up for a pint when it's safe to do so, Pete. Haworth? We can both get the bus there. PM me if you fancy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 20 - 06:15 PM

As Dominic Cummings is back in the news, interfering as he's been doing in the defence review, it seems timely to post this, especially as it's a music website. Slightly out of date, admittedly. Sing this to the tune of Old McDonald...

By the way, it was written by a friend of a friend of a friend who is in a poetry club...

Ahem...

Dominic drove to Daddy’s farm
Ee -i, ee-i, o
He took his sick wife and his bairn
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a cough-cough here,
And a sore throat there;
Here a cough, there a cough,
Everywhere a cough-cough.
Dominic drove to Daddy’s farm,
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Daddy’s farm was quite a jaunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o
But on that farm lived his son’s aunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With some child-care here,
And some child-care there;
Here a niece, there a niece,
Everywhere a nice niece.
Daddy’s farm was quite a jaunt
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic started feeling ill
Ee -i, ee-i, o
It was Covid19, not some chill
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a virus here,
And a virus there;
Go to bed! Go to bed!
Got a very sore head.
Dominic started feeling ill
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic thought his eyesight poor
Ee -i, ee-i, o
So drove his car just to make quite sure
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With a pee stop here,
And a picnic there;
Here a pee, there a pic,
Everywhere a picnic.
Dominic thought his eyesight poor
Ee -i, ee-i, o


Dominic’s home with child and spouse
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Living in their London house
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With the flashlights here,
And the tabloids there;
Here a flash, there a flash,
Everywhere’s a flash-dash.
Dominic’s home with wife and spouse,
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic went to meet the press
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Said he had nothing to confess
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Made good judgements here,
Made good judgements there;
Here a judge, there a judge,
Everywhere a good judge.
Dominic went to meet the press
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Dominic’s back at work again
Ee -i, ee-i, o
Running things from Number 10
Ee -i, ee-i, o
With quick fib here,
And a quick fib there;
Here a fib, there a fib,
Fibbing gaily ad lib.
Dominic’s back at work again
Ee -i, ee-i, o

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 01:02 AM

Any chance I could borrow that piece to reproduce elsewhere, Steve? I’ll be very happy to credit the writer...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:11 PM

Oh well, at least we got our blue passports...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 03:57 PM

im concerned about the opposition to this disastrous government. locally, there is nothing happening. at constituency - tory/far right council - there is chaos or nothing happening. nationally? there is nothing to inspire a demoralised and worried left/progressive constituency. no fightback. no cultural or politically lively or inspiring messages. keir starmer is forensic? great. but just for 15 minutes a week when the government can be arsed to turn up in parliament. boris johnson should be handed his lazy, corrupt arse on a plate every fucking day - . i'm demoralised and trying to give up on this shit show, i've had enough of being defeated for over 40 years - but surely there is something happening? what would joe strummer do?

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 08:18 PM

Joe moved to live near Bridgwater, the only real rebel lefty stronghold in very tory zummerzet..


..then dropped dead...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 08:21 PM

Not too far from where my mum has voted Labour for over 60 years,
and never seen them ever win a local seat in government...

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 02:58 AM

yes, he really went for it at full speed for years then died after taking his dogs for a walk. maybe that's a lesson - keep up the fight or take a rest and risk dying peacefully. maybe i'll just slide away while pulling up himalayan balsam by the rochdale canal. i'd be safer up a tree fighting the ridiculous HS2 development.