Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song

Subject: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 02:47 PM

Hi

I am trying to find the name of the tune to which The Mock Turtle's Song from Alice in Wonderland ("Will you walk a little faster?" said a whiting to a snail) has been set.

The trouble is it seems to have been set to a number of different tunes. The one I'm after is - I believe - either a dance or a processional tune from the north of England.

I have tried Googling all manner of queries without luck. Can anyone help?

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 23 Jul 20 - 06:58 PM

Have you checked the following?

http://www.mlang.name/lewis/carroll-music.html

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 06:32 AM

Thanks @Starship. I hadn't seen that site, but it doesn't seem to help unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 08:53 AM

Dang. Greum, do you have a guesstimate as to the year you first heard the particular melody/tune you're looking for and possibly under what circumstances toy heard it? I presume you said the north of England because of an accent or possibly dancce style. ??

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:31 AM

Unfortunately I don't recall when I first heard it.

I believe it's from the north of England because I thought it was called something like Preston Processional (or March, or something) after the name of a Lancashire town.

I think I need to make a recording of the tune so you'll know what I mean. I'll see if I can do that later...

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:50 AM

Okay, I've made a very (very) rough recording which I've uploaded here

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 11:53 AM

That would certainly be of assistance to some of the scholars who visit this site. Anything you can add to it will be like chicken soup: It may not help, but it won't hurt. Thanks, Greum.

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:03 PM

The tune Greum uploaded is Vandals of Hammerwich, a Lichfield Morris Tradition tune for a dance of the same name.

LFF

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:16 PM

Oh cool! Thanks LFF. Not the NE after all, but the Midlands. And not a processional or a march. Oh well, can't be right any of the time! LOL

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

You're welcome, Greum. The version of Vandals on Morris On does process from one side of the "sound stage" to the other!

Vandals

LFF

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 03:16 PM

Haha! I have Son of Morris On and Great-grandson, but not the original. :)

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Mysha
Date: 24 Jul 20 - 07:27 PM

Erm? Are we talking about the Lobster Quadrille? It's poem, a parody of the Spider and the Fly. But that is itself a poem, without a tune.

Still, I kind of like The Lobster Quadrille, even it maybe doesn't fit the situation too well.

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Greum
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 02:16 AM

Hi Mysha Yes, that's the poem. I gather it goes by both titles. Different tune though.

G

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 02:26 AM

You can try this ;)

https://youtu.be/xV9XnuYo080

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 08:13 AM

As an intro to Vandals of Hammerwich, some morris sides sing "
Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, come to the ball"
twice before starting to dance

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Mysha
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 11:06 AM

Greum: No, it doesn't actually have a title, but the chapter is titled "The Lobster Quadrille". Having had time to think it over, I have to say that actually it is indeed a song, even if The Spider and the Fly is not. But though the Gryphon and the Mock Turtle speak of "the words" and of "singing", they make no mention of the tune. The movements of the dancers, however, are solemnly, and it's sung slowly and sadly.

Gibb: That seems quite the fit. (I don't like it much, but that's to be expected: I don't think much of that chapter.)

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM

If it's any help, we did "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" as a school play when I was in form 1 (year 7?), back in the mid 60s.
The following is how I remember us doing it.
The transcription is rough and ready as it's totally from memory, some of the repeated notes may be supposed to be 'dotted quaver, semi-quaver' rather than just two quavers.

X: 1
T: MockTurtle
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Z: NP 25/07/2020
K: C
ccFF AAGG| ccAA GGF2| ccFF AAGG| ccAA GGF2| ccff ddee| ccdd GGc2|ccFF AAGG| ccAA GGF2| ffdd eecc| ddGGc2z2| ffdd eecc| ^A^Acc F4||
w: "Will you walk a lit-tle fas-ter?" said a whit-ing to a snail, "There's a por-poise close be-hind us, and he's tread-ing on my tail. See how eag-er-ly the lob-sters and the tur-tles all ad-vance! They are wait-ing on the shin-gle— will you come and join the dance?    Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the dance?    Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?

This can be converted to staff notation, or Midi playback by copy/pasting (from "X" to the final "?") into the facility at Mandolintab.net

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 20 - 03:26 PM

Mysha,
the above (that I posted) was fast paced. Possibly, although a quadrille would be slow and solemn, the whiting is trying to chivvy the snail along, hence the tempo.

Just my two-pennorth.

I did like the link with it to "Rolling down to old Maui". It must be a Lewis Carroll thing, as I've used that tune in the past for "You are old Father William".

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: Mysha
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:38 PM

To put in the quote marks for the original words: "The movements of the dancers, however, are 'solemnly', and it's sung 'slowly' and 'sadly'."

Not my words but those of the author.


BFN
Mysha

Subject: RE: Tune for The Mock Turtle's Song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 26 Jul 20 - 04:49 PM

I know of two composers' settings.

Alec Wilder, I believe, did the version I heard
sung by Cyril Richard with what sounds like
an ensemble of woodwinds and brass.

Irving Fine (US educated in Europe)
wrote a setting for mixed chorus and piano.