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BS: Trump Actions and Effects

Raggytash 23 Jan 21 - 11:44 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 21 - 11:42 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 21 - 11:29 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jan 21 - 11:26 AM
Raggytash 23 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM
Raggytash 23 Jan 21 - 10:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jan 21 - 10:51 AM
Donuel 23 Jan 21 - 10:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jan 21 - 10:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 21 - 07:24 AM
robomatic 22 Jan 21 - 09:30 PM
Donuel 22 Jan 21 - 09:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 07:52 PM
robomatic 22 Jan 21 - 07:12 PM
Donuel 22 Jan 21 - 06:41 PM
robomatic 22 Jan 21 - 06:24 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 21 - 06:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 05:54 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 21 - 05:26 PM
Donuel 22 Jan 21 - 05:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 03:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 03:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 21 - 03:36 PM
Helen 22 Jan 21 - 03:19 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 02:21 PM
Helen 22 Jan 21 - 02:17 PM
Helen 22 Jan 21 - 02:12 PM
Jos 22 Jan 21 - 11:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jan 21 - 11:11 AM
Donuel 22 Jan 21 - 10:56 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 20 Jan 21 - 12:11 PM
Donuel 20 Jan 21 - 12:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM
Donuel 20 Jan 21 - 11:02 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 10:07 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 21 - 07:31 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 06:10 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 21 - 04:03 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 21 - 03:25 AM
robomatic 20 Jan 21 - 12:58 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:44 AM

Then your use of the term "Brits" on either side of your mention of his name denotes a very poor use of the English language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:42 AM

Raggytash time to play catchup. archives

If Donald had gone through with his own Saturday night massacre a mass resignation would be the news and not him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:29 AM

Good Gawd EVERYONE knows he was Australian.
Hey robo by any chance have you ever seen a robokiller commercial?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 11:26 AM

Back to the topic at hand:

The New York Times published a huge article last night Trump and Justice Dept. Lawyer Said to Have Plotted to Oust Acting Attorney General about Trump in cahoots with an Justice Department lawyer to try to overturn the Georgia election. Apparently they thought if they could push Georgia to cave on the results that the other swing states would follow.

    WASHINGTON — The Justice Department’s top leaders listened in stunned silence this month: One of their peers, they were told, had devised a plan with President Donald J. Trump to oust Jeffrey A. Rosen as acting attorney general and wield the department’s power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results.

    The unassuming lawyer who worked on the plan, Jeffrey Clark, had been devising ways to cast doubt on the election results and to bolster Mr. Trump’s continuing legal battles and the pressure on Georgia politicians. Because Mr. Rosen had refused the president’s entreaties to carry out those plans, Mr. Trump was about to decide whether to fire Mr. Rosen and replace him with Mr. Clark.


This guy is toast, and so, now, is Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:58 AM

That's Murdoch!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:55 AM

I think you will find that Rupert Murdock is Australian, not British.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:51 AM

We don't get brainwashed from infanthood having to salute the flag at school...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:38 AM

Sorry you got knee-jerkingly aggressively defensively kneed in the balls.

Sounds like different countries teach history differently dontcha think


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 10:14 AM

yes, I've noticed how even some supposedly liberal progressive yanks,
can still get knee-jerkingly aggressively defensive
if any Brit dares to criticise the hallowed US of A...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 07:24 AM

Sore Brit? The only thing I'd be sore at is being accused of being a Brit. (And I've never in my life met any "Brit" who has the least resentment at the American Revolution. It seems to be seen generally as very much a sideshow, a warm-up event for the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars.)

But there is something strange about the quasi-religious attitude that seems to pervade how many Americans in regard to the details of far-off time. It's different to the way other countries seem to treat their analogous events. The French Revolution or the Easter Rising are honoured and celebrated, but they aren't seen as setting the boundaries of how things should be today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 09:30 PM

I was all for Hillary in '08, only changed to Obama for non-Hillary reasons. And was glad I did; just wish I could've voted for him a third time. And in a way, I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 09:02 PM

You forgot. We put clothes pins on our noses and voted for democracy's sake .


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:52 PM

"To be fair, it wasn't all yanks."

well.. if the Dems hadn't so self-defeatingly selected such a lame candidate as Clinton to oppose trump...

Couldn't they hear us all on this side of the Atlantic
groaning in exasperation at how crap she was...!!!?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 07:12 PM

Nice thoughts, Don'l. We'll SEE.


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Subject: RE: BS: BIDEN Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 06:41 PM

Joe is calm cool and collected as he makes humane decisions.
Joes religion is integral to his personality unlike aprosletizing Christians and a back biting Christian I've met here. His intellect is substantial enough to follow science while his predesesor could not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 06:24 PM

I wanted to respond to McGrath thinking I'd confused Botswana with Zimbabwe. Going back to that list of Democracies, no I hadn't. The U.S. still listed much much higher than Zimbabwe, but the Economist, which I think makes up the list of democracies, had placed the U.S. in a population listed as 'troubled'. But the standards of that list are still relatively high and we are still ahead of Botswana.

Good Times.

Wouldn't surprise me if we do a bit of climbing on that list after the most recent U.S. election.

SRS has started a fresh thread specifically for legal and legislative repercussions to the former Occupant. I think this thread still has validity to societal and political implications that involve The Donald and his acolytes, because they are not going away.

Back to troubled democracies:

I had omitted from my list the most Trump-like of the other South American leaders: Bolsanaro of Brazil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 06:22 PM

To be fair, it wasn't all yanks. We've lived through a bloody nightmare for four years (yanks more than anyone), and enough yanks have recoiled in order to end it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:54 PM

" It was Rupurt Murdoch and a private company that.."

.. it's you yanks, with your too easily abused political & legal systems,
wot took your eye off the ball
and nearly let a new wannabe h1tler rule the world..

No good blaming any bugger else...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:26 PM

Sore loser Brits? You're a bit twisted, mate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 05:22 PM

As sore loser brits celebrate the fall of the US constitution it is actully alive and well. It was Rupurt Murdoch and a private company that had the most deleterious results on the minds of people talked into victimhood and lies. The US has racist woes and brits have a few of their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 03:39 PM

Two Brits cross posting on the same basic point..

Yank mates, you might need a rethink...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 03:37 PM

A hard won revolutionary war to escape the tyranny of British monarchy..

So the victorious free democratic yanks then go and hand a presidential leader far more absolute arbitrary powers
than our ornamental old Queen Lizzie could ever dream of...!!!????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects¿
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 03:36 PM

"why would a modern democracy like the USA..."

The thing is the USA is not "a modern democracy". It's constitutional arrangements are 250 years old, and it's virtually impossible to adjust them to match the needs and the possibilities of today's world. The undead Founding Fathers still have the last word, and the President has powers that even King George never had.

It's amazing the place can even function.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 03:19 PM

Well, one crazy evil every couple of hundred years is all right, isn't it? Not a bad innings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 02:21 PM

I still don't [perhaps never will] understand how the supposed beacon of planetary democracy
hands such absolute powers to one individual human being,
on the presumption a president will not turn out to be too crazy evil...?????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 02:17 PM

The link posted by McGrath of Harlow 20 Jan 21 - 04:03 AM about receiving public funding didn't work but the page with general information is here:

Understanding public funding of presidential elections


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 02:12 PM

I'm catching up on this thread now that it is re-opened, but this was a good article:

Donald Trump was a 'demagogue president' and 'sociopath', says former FBI director James Comey


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jos
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 11:22 AM

The US President issues a ceremonial pardon to a turkey every Thanksgiving.
[But I have heard somewhere that the turkey's reprieve expires not long after the close of the ceremony.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 11:11 AM

This is the 21st Century, why would a modern democracy like the USA
still allow a king.. oops.. president
absolute powers to decree pardons on the merest royal.. oops.. presidential whim...!!!?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:56 AM

I don't argue with the NYT but there is new information that the pardons that were crafted by an inferior lawyer has defined the pardons so narrowly that all the admissions of guilt to additional crimes to obtain a plea bargain can still be prosecuted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

The case has been made that Trump is still doing stupid stuff, and there are things from his administration that are now being shared that don't have to do with his prosecution. The post I received suggested his prosecution isn't as interesting (!) as his other nonsense. Personally I'm dying to read what happens to his fat ass in court, hoping he can't run out the clock like he usually does.

But here it is, the continuation of Trump's "Actions and Effects." and for your perusal, the New York Times ran an article about the truly awful scammers Trump pardoned on his way out the door. For Prosecutors, Trump’s Clemency Decisions Were a ‘Kick in the Teeth’


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:11 PM

As you sow, so shall you reap. The reaping, for Donald Trump, is about to begin. The bastard will probably spend the afternoon out on the golf course. Let's hope these are his last relaxing hours. I wonder if he's even going to have an attorney at his impeachment trial. And I look forward to his being stripped of all of the usual perks of a former U.S. president.

His presentations of the presidential medals of freedom or honor will always have an asterisk, because they were given to cronies of no particular importance, people who lied for Trump, who didn't give great service to the nation.

Trump identified cracks in our laws and exploited them; now is the time to restore things to rights and fix the ones that were always broken.
I'm going to close this thread, and start a new one to follow Trump's court cases, and perhaps his managing to find a social media platform that won't kick him out - where he can spew more vitriol. If he manages to form a party it can serve as the foundation of a self-identified list of those to prosecute for the assault on the Capitol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:00 PM

Don't read anything into the use of the term GOP. Today the Gop are the minority of Republicans that belong to the https://lincolnproject.us/

The remainder is the mob and Trump movrment which will shrink over time and indictments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

'twas I that mentioned UK parties but it was in comparison with the US Republican party. I also asked if that party was split and another question springs to mind. It only seems recent that the UK news outlets are referring to them as the "GOP". Is this significant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:02 AM

Who hired the Trump impersonator that appeared at the door , dropped trou and mooned the Biden inuguration and left?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 10:07 AM

I would think that a court would have to convict him first: you can't go around in the justice system banning people just because you don't like what they did. Either that or someone does it via some kind of civil action. Anyway, he's gone, but with the not-so-veiled threat that he'll be back. Be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM

Have copied the Brit posts from here to the brexit thread so that we can carry on squabbling over there.


If we want to!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM

The missing link was to a Federal government site about the procedures for paying money people running for president, including in the primaries. For some reason the lik doesn't work.

The point is, it's not a question of anybody barring him from election, it's about getting a court to confirm that by his own actions he has already done that to himself. It wouldn't need to be the government to launch a legal challenge. Whether the court would confirm that is an open question - but. I don't thank that any of the people he shoehorned into office would be likely to be affected by some sense of loyalty or gratitude in making their ruling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM

”It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

That’s an interpretation you have chosen to put on it Steve. You’re the one who brings up ‘lefties’, etc., not me. Own your prejudice.

When I talk about ‘unity in the LP’, I’m asking for both sides to bury the hatchet and work together for the good, not only of the Party, but also of the vast majority of the people of this country.

And yes, DMcG, I agree that this discussion would be better placed in the UK Politics thread, but others raised it here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:31 AM

I don't want to act as policeman here, by any means, but a lot of the recent posts should surely by the UK politics thread, not the one about Trump's Actions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

You're assuming that you've been right all along about Jeremy Corbyn. The splits in the party were caused not by him but by his opponents (constantly briefing against him, using the bogus antisemitism nonsense as a stick to beat him with, refusing to be in his shadow cabinet, etc. A death wish by the party right...). There's a very interesting new book that's been given excellent reviews, even by the right-wing press (before you say anything) that gives what's been described as a very honest account of Corbyn's leadership and what went wrong for him, This Land by Owen Jones. I'll be buying it. Corbyn stunned the pundits by robbing May of her majority in 2017. The Tories didn't like it, the media didn't like it and the right wing in the Labour Party didn't like it. So, next time round, out came the big guns...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM

Funny though, isn’t it Steve, that when I appeal for unity in the Labour Party and support for the democratically-elected leader in order to concentrate on fighting the worst Tory government we’ve had for a great many years, I’m jumped on and lambasted by our resident Corbynistas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

It's a bit like when there's plenty of money in the bank, Dave (not that I'd know). Little crises that might cause splits can be overridden. Money-in-the-bank for the Tories is their big majority. If they were to lose most or all of that majority next time round, there would be splits, but whether that would be enough to wreck 'em kind of hinges on Labour not having even bigger splits...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM

Is the Republican party torn by internal division? We can only hope our Tories will go the same way but, for now, that seems to be the prerogative of the Labour party!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:10 AM

You'd have to be a pretty dedicated Brit observer of US politics before you could get your head around the labyrinthine US system of caucuses/open and closed primaries/ conventions for choosing your presidential candidates. I've heard of a few small, or not so small, voices within the GOP lamenting what's happened to the party and calling for a reset. I'd like to hear from you savvy yanks whether you think there could be enough groundswell in the party to preclude him from standing again (obviating the need for congressional processes, which are in danger of failing, to remove the possibility), or whether there could still be too much popular support for him, thereby sweeping away those doubts. Again, it's always best in these debates to leave your personal wishes at the door...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM

Page not found, Kevin.

I fear that waiting until he tried to stand again for office before acting would considerably weaken the case against him. "Why didn't you go for him straight away?" would be a bit of a bugger to answer... On the other hand, failed attempts now, or attempts that got mired for months or years in the courts, would be just as bad. He isn't necessarily in a weak position, and that needs to be recognised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:03 AM

You've got the wrong country, robomatic. Botswana appears to be a model democracy from all I've heard. I suspect maybe you might have meant its neighbour Zimbabwe, which isn't.
..................
The 14th Amendment didn't lay down any procedures for determining that someone qualified. I would think that that automatically means that the responsibility for determining it would ultimately lie with the courts, as with any other criminal act. I can't imagine that if Trump seeks to run there won't be an effort to challenge his right to do so through the courts. That would especially so if there was any question of his being entitled to any public .

Here is what I'm referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 03:25 AM

Giving a pardon to Steve Bannon seems a tactical error to me. His crime was essentially stealing the money Trump supporters sent in to pay for The Wall. That means it directly affects Trump supporters and says to them that "Stealing from you is no big deal." Most other pardons are more remote from individual voters but that one can be taken as a personal insult to Trump supporters. Thar's a risky game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:58 AM

Well the true bar for Trump would have been, should have been, the Republican Party.



The entire world is beset with demogogues and autocrats usurping democracies:
India
Poland
Hungary
Russia (they were trying for a democracy for the second time in a hundred years).
Turkey
Phillipines

Most of these leaders have been genuinely, for want of a better word, elected.

And then there's Venezuela.

The EIU Democracy Index now rates the United States as a "flawed' democracy, but at least we're ahead of Botswana.


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