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BS: Trump Actions and Effects

Donuel 26 Oct 21 - 06:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 25 Oct 21 - 10:59 PM
Donuel 25 Oct 21 - 07:33 PM
Donuel 25 Oct 21 - 06:16 PM
Donuel 25 Oct 21 - 06:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Oct 21 - 05:35 PM
Donuel 25 Oct 21 - 09:04 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Oct 21 - 08:11 AM
Donuel 24 Oct 21 - 11:08 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 21 - 11:51 AM
Rain Dog 24 Oct 21 - 09:55 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Oct 21 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 21 - 05:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Oct 21 - 05:13 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 21 - 04:30 PM
Donuel 23 Oct 21 - 04:19 PM
gillymor 23 Oct 21 - 03:29 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 21 - 03:18 PM
Donuel 23 Oct 21 - 03:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Oct 21 - 12:35 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 21 - 11:03 AM
Donuel 23 Oct 21 - 07:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 21 - 05:12 AM
Doug Chadwick 23 Oct 21 - 04:39 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 21 - 04:24 PM
Donuel 21 Oct 21 - 04:07 PM
Jeri 21 Oct 21 - 02:01 PM
Donuel 21 Oct 21 - 01:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 21 Oct 21 - 10:43 AM
Donuel 21 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 21 - 08:31 AM
gillymor 21 Oct 21 - 08:01 AM
Donuel 21 Oct 21 - 07:55 AM
gillymor 21 Oct 21 - 07:34 AM
Charmion 21 Oct 21 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 21 - 06:36 PM
Charmion 20 Oct 21 - 06:33 PM
Donuel 20 Oct 21 - 06:05 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Oct 21 - 04:32 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 21 - 02:03 PM
Bill D 20 Oct 21 - 01:04 PM
Stilly River Sage 20 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM
Donuel 20 Oct 21 - 06:21 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 21 - 03:47 AM
Donuel 19 Oct 21 - 09:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 19 Oct 21 - 09:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 19 Oct 21 - 09:14 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 21 - 07:19 PM
Donuel 19 Oct 21 - 06:15 PM
robomatic 19 Oct 21 - 02:11 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 21 - 06:47 AM

That news has begun talk of an expulsion of members of Congress by other members. Getting it right is paramount to getting it fast.
Cooberation of evidence makes for a stronger case but fact fatigue may make many bury their head in the sand. Timing a bombshell news release is always a factor but is hard to crystal ball the impact.

We knew back in January that Greene conducted tour groups in the capitol bld. that was deemed against the Covid rules days before Jan 6.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 10:59 PM

A story that hit Rolling Stone on Sunday places members of Congress with the planners of the January 6 insurrection, but the mainstream media hasn't reported yet. I'm hoping it's just a fact-checking thing, but after a day or more and nothing, it gives one pause. EXCLUSIVE: Jan. 6 Protest Organizers Say They Participated in ‘Dozens’ of Planning Meetings With Members of Congress and White House Staff

Two sources are communicating with House investigators and detailed a stunning series of allegations to Rolling Stone, including a promise of a “blanket pardon” from the Oval Office


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 07:33 PM

Just in case you thought I was kidding: https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22225538/capitol-insurrection-riot-sweatshirts-hats
The NYT is better but has a paywall


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 06:16 PM

The thousands of Trump campaign T shirts that said MAGA 2020 CIVIL WAR are interesting no? They were made before Pense chickened out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 06:09 PM

Trump repeatedly urged Pense to listen to Eastman. Eastman lacked several things like real election fraud, any alternate electors and a stealing of the certified electoral ballots. Congressional staffers had hidden them from rioters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 05:35 PM

Ahead of Jan. 6, Willard hotel in downtown D.C. was a Trump team ‘command center’ for effort to deny Biden the presidency
They called it the “command center,” a set of rooms and suites in the posh Willard hotel a block from the White House where some of President Donald Trump’s most loyal lieutenants were working day and night with one goal in mind: overturning the results of the 2020 election.

The Jan. 6 rally on the Ellipse and the ensuing attack on the Capitol by a pro-Trump mob would draw the world’s attention to the quest to physically block Congress from affirming Joe Biden’s victory. But the activities at the Willard that week add to an emerging picture of a less visible effort, mapped out in memos by a conservative pro-Trump legal scholar and pursued by a team of presidential advisers and lawyers seeking to pull off what they claim was a legal strategy to reinstate Trump for a second term.

They were led by Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani. Former chief White House strategist Stephen K. Bannon was an occasional presence as the effort’s senior political adviser. Former New York City police commissioner Bernard Kerik was there as an investigator. Also present was John Eastman, the scholar, who outlined scenarios for denying Biden the presidency in an Oval Office meeting on Jan. 4 with Trump and Vice President Mike Pence.

They sought to make the case to Pence and ramp up pressure on him to take actions on Jan. 6 that Eastman suggested were within his powers, three people familiar with the operation said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to describe private conversations. Their activities included finding and publicizing alleged evidence of fraud, urging members of state legislatures to challenge Biden’s victory and calling on the Trump-supporting public to press Republican officials in key states.

The effort underscores the extent to which Trump and a handful of true believers were working until the last possible moment to subvert the will of the voters, seeking to pressure Pence to delay or even block certification of the election, leveraging any possible constitutional loophole to test the boundaries of American democracy.

“I firmly believed then, as I believe now, that the vice president — as president of the Senate — had the constitutional power to send the issue back to the states for 10 days to investigate the widespread fraud and report back well in advance of Inauguration Day, January 20th,” one of those present, senior campaign aide and former White House special assistant Boris Epshteyn, told The Washington Post. “Our efforts were focused on conveying that message.” . . . .But after other efforts failed, as Jan. 6 neared, the Eastman strategy came into bloom. Eastman, a Federalist Society member, law professor and former clerk for Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, had the conservative legal credentials to burnish the argument.

Eastman’s first memo, only two pages long, described a six-point plan by which Pence could effectively commandeer the electoral counting process and enable Trump to win. The memo was first revealed last month in the book “Peril,” by Washington Post writers Bob Woodward and Robert Costa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 09:04 AM

Kill Biden in the crib: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/573617-bannon-says-he-discussed-how-to-kill-this-administration-in-the-crib


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 21 - 08:11 AM

Reports on BBC News today of starving Afghan families having to sell children in order to feed the rest of their families. Think about that for a few moments…

Now, remind me again who made the deal with the Taliban, without involving the legitimate government of Afghanistan, for the withdrawal of US forces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 11:08 PM

For 160 years America has tried to not talk honestly about the Civil War, not in the racist north or south. The foundation of this racism became institutiomalized in a quiet open secret.
Textbooks in NYS had a chapter on the War Between the States and the South had a chapter on The War of Northern Aggression.
Black Lives Matter arose from the slow motion war and murder of black people but the racists are still trying to control the narrative by banning CRT and insisting slavery was rare but 'civil'.
Usually the winners write the narrative but the loss of wealth and property of white southerners remains a pill too bitter to swallow and inspire a hate that white families harbor with pride.

We are talking about it now. The insurrectionists are openly feeling vindicated by Trump. This is the Civil War II we are fighting again.
Few are still willing to call it what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 11:51 AM

A view from this end, from today's Observer:

Trump lost the White House bully pulpit and a US president’s ability to command instant global attention. Personally wounding was the ban imposed by Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, which belatedly agreed he posed a threat to democracy. Trump was cut off from social media and his supporter base. He was all but silenced.

What worse fate could there be for a narcissist who craves constant attention and approval? Exiled to his luxury Florida estate, the Elba of the Everglades, Trump has struggled since to regain his voice. Last week, he made his move. The result: the so-called Truth Social media app, launching next year.

The newly formed company behind the app, Trump Media and Technology Group, plans to disseminate what it calls “anti-woke” news, debate and entertainment to Americans deprived of honest, impartial media outlets. This is total drivel, of course, coming from the mouth of the most shameless liar in modern US history.

Abusing truth as only Trump can, Truth Social will more likely prove both false and antisocial. It’s his way of regaining lost ground, prior to a wished-for presidential comeback in 2024. It’s a political propaganda platform intended to magnify and exploit the hate, ignorance and prejudice on which he feeds. MPs please note: Trump is the ultimate definition of “online harms”......

......Steve Bannon, one of his best-known former aides, has been found in contempt of Congress for refusing to testify to the 6 January inquiry and faces possible criminal prosecution. Since Trump ordered all his minions to act similarly, the legal bull’s-eye pinned to his back grows ever more unmissable.

Yet for all that, Trump remains first choice among Republican voters for the party’s presidential nomination. His average “favourable/unfavourable” rating is almost identical to Biden’s among the electorate as a whole. And he has shown how dangerous he can be when he reaches a wide audience, which is why Truth Social is worrying.


Better start shooting at that bull's-eye, America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Oct 21 - 09:55 AM

"You elected Trump, and in less than three years you're going to elect him again."

Can you let me have the lottery numbers for this weeks draw?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 06:15 PM

How the 'Stop the Steal' movement outwitted Facebook ahead of the Jan. 6 insurrection

Hours after polls closed on Nov. 3, angry Donald Trump supporters on Facebook coalesced around a rallying cry now synonymous with the siege on the U.S. Capitol: "Stop the Steal."

Inside Facebook, employees were watching with concern.

The presidential election may have passed without major incident, but in its wake, "angry vitriol and a slew of conspiracy theories" were fomenting, Facebook staff wrote in an internal report on the Stop the Steal movement earlier this year. Supporters perpetuated the lie that the election had been stolen from then-President Donald Trump — a lie that Trump himself had been stoking for months.

By the time Facebook banned the first Stop the Steal group on Nov. 5, for falsely casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election and calling for violence, the group had already mushroomed to more than 360,000 members. Every hour, tens of thousands of people were joining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:32 PM

Thing is, Maggie, in this day and age you don't have to be smart in an intelligence way. You have to be smart in a populist way. That's your man and that's what you're up against. What we're all up against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:13 PM

Trump isn't "smart" in an intelligence way, Trump is a narcissist who has managed for most of his life to be a fuck-up whose father or company bailed him out (or the courts - when he left all of his creditors and employees dangling after all of his bankruptcies that are a legal "get-out-of-jail-free card). He is smart at cheating. His grades were never released from University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and it's clear in his niece Mary's first book about him that everyone understood that he paid other people to write papers and take tests.

Fact-Checking All of the Mysteries Surrounding Donald Trump and Penn
Why is everything about Trump’s time at Wharton shrouded in secrecy? We set out to uncover the truth.

Ahh, the college transcript. Trump famously graduated from Penn’s Wharton School in 1968 — a fact he reminds audiences of over and over again. (Per Penn’s student newspaper, the Daily Pennsylvanian, he publicly name-dropped Wharton 52 times between June 2015 and January 2018.) But despite all his humblebragging about that Wharton degree, Trump has never allowed his academic performance there to be made public.

“This was a major, major thing with Trump — that people might think he’s stupid,” Michael Wolff told me around the time of Siege’s publication earlier this summer. “The focus of that for Trump is the college transcripts, which are apparently terrible. I’ve spoken to friends of Trump from that time, and this was a guy that was obviously not interested in school and possibly never read a book in his life. For everyone that had known him then and years afterward, the assumption was that he had terrible grades, he was a lackluster student at best.”

In truth, Trump’s Wharton GPA is just one of many mysteries surrounding the 45th president’s relationship with Penn, Philadelphia’s most powerful private institution, which, unwittingly or not, helped unleash Trump on the world.

I'm sure there are juicy stories about the kids at Wharton - did any of them ever do the work or read the books? I'm not pasting the entire article here, but it sounds like of the four older kids, Ivanka did the coursework and graduated cum laude.
Perhaps the biggest reason for this shroud of mystery is Penn itself; the school’s sphinx-like reticence about its most famous alumnus plays at times like a silent scream. For instance, Penn has never had Trump deliver a commencement speech or conferred an honorary degree on him. In the wake of his election, Penn tour guides were discouraged from bringing up the T-word and issued simple instructions for handling questions about Trump’s tenure at Penn: Keep it short and sweet — “Yes, he graduated from Wharton in 1968” — and leave it at that. Tell Penn you’re writing an article about Donald Trump’s time there, and you’ll get the academic version of name, rank and serial number: “Donald J. Trump earned a B.S. in real estate, which was awarded on May 20, 1968,” says Ron Ozio, Penn’s director of media relations, declining my request for an interview. Which is peculiar, given that most universities make a lot of marketing hay out of an alumnus in the White House — and Trump is Penn’s first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:30 PM

We do, gillymor. But yours has far more potential to wreck democracy worldwide. You're bigger and stronger than us. And, with him at the helm, a damn sight more dangerous. By the way, it would be great if some of you yanks didn't automatically think that you get your politics better than anyone else. You elected Reagan. You elected Bush. Twice. You elected Trump, and in less than three years you're going to elect him again. Because you're so big and powerful, that's our business too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:19 PM

Trump's 'Nazi Lite' brand became popular with militia types, racists and cultists. His 'dark brew' is not a best seller. Good people on both sides is mostly composed of victim politics on the fascist side and sanity hopefulls on the progressive side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:29 PM

Maybe you should concentrate on the horrific mess you've made of your own politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:18 PM

He's a bloody sight smarter than you think. He's hot favourite to be the next Republican candidate. And that means another term. When are you guys going to wake up and nail him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 03:09 PM

Recall the early days of Trump and social media like facebook and Twitter, Trump was quirky crazy hazy and funny in a sick way. It succeeded in capturing eyeballs. BUT A SERIOUS TRUMP SITE is destined for failure. People loved that kofefee nonsense. If he was smart he would run with the shitting pig meme and ever popular insult theme. Thank Dog he isn't smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 12:35 PM

Pranksters have already defaced Trump’s new social network

Truth Social has some unusual rules for a Trump-run site: It reserves the right to ban users and safeguard itself from lawsuits with Section 230 protections. It also prohibits ‘excessive use of capital letters.’

Former president Donald Trump and his team declared Wednesday night that they would soon launch a “media powerhouse” that would help them triumph in their long-running war against Big Tech. But within hours, pranksters found what appeared to be an unreleased test version and posted a picture of a defecating pig to the “donaldjtrump” account.

The site, called Truth Social, has since been pulled offline, evidence that Trump is likely to face a daunting challenge in building an Internet business that can stand on its own.

Banned by all major social networks after his supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, Trump has for months agitated to regain the online megaphone that once blasted his voice around the world. In a presentation released Wednesday by his new media company, Trump Media & Technology Group, his team hailed the new social network as the first tentpole for a Trump-led media, news and Internet empire that would one day compete with CNN, Disney and Facebook.

But the site’s early hours revealed lax security, rehashed features and a flurry of bizarre design decisions. An open sign-up page allowed anyone to use the site shortly after it was revealed, sparking the creation of the “donaldjtrump” account and the pig posting. A Washington Post reporter was able to register and post under the account name “mikepence” without any stops in place. New sign-ups were blocked shortly after.

A Trump Media & Technology Group spokesperson did not immediately respond to requests for comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 11:03 AM

So Trump is starting his own social media platform because he's been denied his free speech. Oh, if you join Truth Social, by the way, don't expect to be able to criticise it...That kind of free speech ain't allowed...

Here's a great letter for all those of us (myself not included) for those of us who can't face life without Facebook:

A letter from Peter White of Holbrook in Derbyshire which was published in The Oldie magazine a number of years back still makes me giggle.

"I haven't got a computer, but I was told about Facebook and Twitter, and am trying to make friends outside Facebook and Twitter while applying the same principles.
"Every day, I walk down the street and tell passers-by what I have eaten, how I feel, what I have done the night before and what I will do for the rest of the day. I give them pictures of my wife, my daughter, my dog and me gardening and on holiday, spending time by the pool. I also listen to their conversations, tell them I 'like' them and give them my opinion on every subject that interests me....whether it interests them or not.
"And it works. I already have four people following me: two police officers, a social worker and a psychiatrist."


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 07:41 AM

A failed coup becomes practice for a successful coup.
What the mother trumping hell is Biden to do
Focus on saving Democracy or get his New Deal
Save the body so the mind survives is what I feel


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 05:12 AM

Are the powers that be in the USA any nearer to nailing the bastard yet? We in the UK have a lot invested in your doing so as the sooner it happens, the sooner we can nail our own corrupt crew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Oct 21 - 04:39 AM

Steve, this thread is about Trump's actions and effects. Stop trashing Powell, move on to the subject of the thread or move on.

If you think that is confusing the issue, then maybe you can appreciate how difficult it is to follow any reasonable discussion of UK politics when so many widely differing points are crammed into a single thread thread.

DC


We have constrained the Trump conversation to a single thread based upon the example of too many UK political threads. Live and learn. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 04:24 PM

No need to shout, Maggie. I read all responses to my posts before posting again. Oh yes, he could have resigned in protest at being ordered to make that speech. He even said so himself, actually. And there is a massive connection to Trump in what happened at that time. Telling massive lies in order to advance your nefarious cause became a thing under Bush and Blair that you could now get away with. Even be responsible, via your lies, for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, yet still win your next election, which they both did. Don't think for one minute that this was lost on Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. More sinister still is that Trump lied his way through four years of presidency and came out just as strong. He got even more votes than the time before. Biden vs Trump next time round? Don't waste your dollars betting on Biden. So when did the big lying start, Maggie?

Colin Powell came across as an upright kind of bloke who naively made a terrible mistake. At least he was contrite. But I'm afraid that his mistake will always be an ineradicable part of his legacy. I'm sure he's up there with the angels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 04:07 PM

The trial of Donald Trump the game show star and President will be in part history repeating itself.

"Fame, like a two-edg’d Sword, does cut both ways,
And equally, doth praise Men, and dispraise,
Cæsar and Pompey were surnamed Great,
By Sycophants, and in their own Gazett,
Being great Cons and Butchers, they great Fame did get."


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 02:01 PM

For the record, I got intelligence reports, too, and they said *it was strongly indicated* there were WMDs there. What Gen Powell knew was what intelligence people in the field told him. It was still a supposition, and was not enough to start a war over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 01:13 PM

The gears of Justice move slowly, perhaps too slowly. Trump is not even close to being tried for his insurrection violence or any of his other crimes. Even the Parkland mass shooter is finally getting his day in court and that tradjedy happened years ago.

I watched Four Hours at the Capitol last night. I hope the work recieves awards. It is POWERFUL.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:43 AM

certainty he expressed to the UN was completely unjustified, and, worse, he knew it.

He didn't "know it."

He could have resigned. We can forgive him for his naivity but let's at least not view the vile consequences of his actions through rose-coloured glasses.

No, he couldn't resign if he didn't agree with the politicians.

Have you heard nothing General Milley said last month and before? He served under Trump to protect the country and to do his job, and it isn't a political job, it's a military job. You don't quit your military job because you have a political disagreement.

The thing with Trump is that he was able to get military people fired when they were doing their jobs (think of the Vindman twins), but they didn't quit.

Steve, this thread is about Trump's actions and effects. Stop trashing Powell, move on to the subject of the thread or move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 08:50 AM

Yes Gilly times change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 08:31 AM

I'm not very keen on the insinuation that criticising Powell means that I may be racist. That is just cheap. Let me remind you that I have said that, in spite of my criticism of him, St Peter would still have let him in. OK?

Yes he might have been politically naive. But going to the UN to tell the Bush/Blair lies, lies that were going to drive an illegal war that killed all those civilians and which any bloody fool could see was going to visit all kinds of chaos and inhumanity on the region and beyond. A man in his position, expressing such rock-solid certainty...a massive error that had massive repercussions. Just one more thing, going back to that time. There were plenty of Bush/Blair dissenters in this country who KNEW that those two were determined to go to war, come what may. We stood in the streets to protest, etc., well before it all kicked off. We watched with dismay as the weapons inspectors were determinedly sidelined. Blair lied to Parliament. Lied. We knew he was lying. We knew there was no evidence of those weapons because we knew that if they'd existed they'd have been plastered all over the media in order to get us onside. Ordinary people may not have been seeing the intelligence but we knew at least that there was something wrong. Colin Powell saw all this yet his speech contained not one scintilla of doubt. We all know that intelligence is often dodgy and always incomplete. He could have said no to Bush, yes he could. He could have resigned. We can forgive him for his naivity but let's at least not view the vile consequences of his actions through rose-coloured glasses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 08:01 AM

As you often do, you're mashing up two separate eras for gawd knows what reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 07:55 AM

Its less nuanced than that.
In Trump World, Colin Powell was everything they hate; Harlem born of Jamaican immigrants, a Never Trumper, a defender of Democracy and not white. He was the Jackie Robinson of high US goverment office with the exception of Thurgood Marshall. I can not help but suspect a deep seated racist hatred by Powell's critics. In 1996 Colin said he could no longer be a Republican as the party became more anti diversity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 07:34 AM

Thanks for that insight, Charmion.
To me Secretary Powell was one of the finest public servants of my lifetime who got railroaded by several of the worst. I don't give him a pass on his involvement in the Irag affair but it doesn't nullify all the good things he did for this country as a soldier and a diplomat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Charmion
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 07:25 AM

I’m not a Yank, Steve, but I agree with the consensus here that General Powell was far more sinned against than sinning. I don’t believe he *knew* the intelligence upon which he based his decision was dishonest. Reliable? That’s different; any intelligence assessment can be both wildly unreliable and completely tru-blue honest at the same time.

As a well-trained, widely experienced combat veteran, he was singularly ill-prepared for American-style national and international politics. In Army World, everyone on your side is fighting the same enemy you are for the same reasons, and deliberately feeding duff gen to your chain of command is a mortal sin, if not treason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:36 PM

I absolutely know what you're trying to tell me. The irreducible fact is that he was complicit in peddling a terrible lie that, ultimately, led to misery and death for hundreds of thousands of non-combatants. His contrition, no matter how genuine (and I believe it was) can never mitigate the consequences of his part in the unjust invasion of Iraq. The obstinate point here is that the certainty he expressed to the UN was completely unjustified, and, worse, he knew it. I understand how you yanks want to cling to any scrap of integrity that you can find in your failed statesmen, and how we shouldn't speak ill of the dead, etc., but this guy aided and abetted the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. Not only that, he helped to legitimise the political expediency of telling barefaced lies, a phenomenon that we are currently reaping the whirlwind of.

I'm sure that he was a lovely man. You need to be a damn sight more than that when you are in one of the most powerful positions on the planet. He failed that test. However, were I to believe in heaven and hell, which I don't, then I feel that St Peter might just, on a fine balance, give him the benefit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:33 PM

General Powell was yet more collateral damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:05 PM

https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/colin-powell-quotes


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 04:32 PM

That's on the CIA and on Dubya wanting to one-up his old man as far as war. What we're trying to tell you, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 02:03 PM

...and a quarter of a million civilian deaths, Bill...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 01:04 PM

Steve... Powell was assured by the CIA and Bush that they had solid evidence of WMDs. They wanted a statement immediately... he gave them he benefit of the doubt and read it......... and began to suspect a problem and regret it within a very short time.
   Yes, we can play "shoot the messenger", but General Powell's loyalty as a good soldier was at once a virtue... and a problem.
   He did suffer for his attempt to follow the lead of those who simply wanted the invasion. For me, it doesn't tarnish his basic character & legacy much at all.. the 'mistake' should be only a footnote in the history books on the pages describing how Cheney..thru Bush.. pushed this story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

The Trump Administration Used Its Food Aid Program for Political Gain, Congressional Investigators Find

The Food to Families program, touted by Ivanka Trump, gave tens of millions of dollars to unqualified firms and was also used to promote then-President Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 06:21 AM

Ivanka Trump in charge of a 6 billion dollar food program, what could go wrong with talent like that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 03:47 AM

I've read the.Colin Powell story very carefully in recent days. I know about the CIA's part. He made those claims at the UN in the kind of words I've described knowing that he'd seen no evidence and that he was passing on what he definitely should have known to have been a potential untruth, yet his words transmitted certainty. He held one of the highest and most influential offices in the western world. There's plenty of connection with his time and Trump. He suffered later for his lies but Blair and Bush both got away with it (they both won their next elections, for example). They discovered that lies, even ones that kill thousands, can be a useful political ploy. Since then we've had two of the worst serial liars in political history in power in our two countries. Bush, Blair, Powell, Johnson and Trump found that lies can suit your political agenda very nicely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 09:18 PM

When Bannon is sitting in jail he will communicate with the Proud Boys to break him out. It will be called operation Base Steal day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 09:16 PM

But this thread is about Trump.

The Trump Administration Used Its Food Aid Program for Political Gain, Congressional Investigators Find
The Food to Families program, touted by Ivanka Trump, gave tens of millions of dollars to unqualified firms and was also used to promote then-President Trump.
A $6 billion federal program created to provide fresh produce to families affected by the pandemic was mismanaged and used by the Trump administration for political gain, a new congressional report has found.

As a ProPublica investigation revealed last spring and as the new report further details, the Farmers to Families Food Box program gave contracts to companies that had no relevant experience and often lacked necessary licenses. The House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis, which released its report last week, found that former President Donald Trump’s administration did not adequately screen contractor applications or identify red flags in bid proposals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 09:14 PM

Steve, you're not perhaps as familiar with the Colin Powell story as Americans are. He was duped by a CIA plot that put forward the story of an unreliable Iraqi source - and he regretted that for the rest of his life.

Bush shouldn't have started the Iraq war, but that was Bush's decision, and he also got the bad intelligence. The astonishing part is how much influence one particularly bad source seemed to wield.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 07:19 PM

Colin Powell was a main cheerleader, and main liar, when it came to the invasion of Iraq. He told us that the evidence for Saddam's weapons of mass destruction was unarguable and rock-solid when he knew very well that it wasn't. I can't think that the families of the quarter-million dead Iraqi civilians would be agreeing with you about his duty, honesty, empathy and good intentions. All of his expressed regrets and switching of sides won't bring a single one of those people back. You could have added flawed and weak to your list. He should have told Bush where to get off instead of peddling the lies to the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 06:15 PM

In a comparison of Steve Bannon and Colin Powell there are many contrasts.
Let me count the ways;
Hygiene, Honor, Duty, Intellect, Respondsibility...(3 thousand factors later)...American, Empathy, Honesty and Good Intentions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 02:11 PM

One among several things that have changed since the first instance of the Steele Dossier story is that supposed a video document of the 'pee tape' were to emerge at any time from the present onward, no doubt the defense on the part of Tump would be that it's a deep fake.


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