BS: Trump Actions & Effects (NO new Trmp threads!)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

'twas I that mentioned UK parties but it was in comparison with the US Republican party. I also asked if that party was split and another question springs to mind. It only seems recent that the UK news outlets are referring to them as the "GOP". Is this significant?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 11:02 AM

Who hired the Trump impersonator that appeared at the door , dropped trou and mooned the Biden inuguration and left?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 10:07 AM

I would think that a court would have to convict him first: you can't go around in the justice system banning people just because you don't like what they did. Either that or someone does it via some kind of civil action. Anyway, he's gone, but with the not-so-veiled threat that he'll be back. Be very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM

Have copied the Brit posts from here to the brexit thread so that we can carry on squabbling over there.


If we want to!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM

The missing link was to a Federal government site about the procedures for paying money people running for president, including in the primaries. For some reason the lik doesn't work.

The point is, it's not a question of anybody barring him from election, it's about getting a court to confirm that by his own actions he has already done that to himself. It wouldn't need to be the government to launch a legal challenge. Whether the court would confirm that is an open question - but. I don't thank that any of the people he shoehorned into office would be likely to be affected by some sense of loyalty or gratitude in making their ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM

”It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

That’s an interpretation you have chosen to put on it Steve. You’re the one who brings up ‘lefties’, etc., not me. Own your prejudice.

When I talk about ‘unity in the LP’, I’m asking for both sides to bury the hatchet and work together for the good, not only of the Party, but also of the vast majority of the people of this country.

And yes, DMcG, I agree that this discussion would be better placed in the UK Politics thread, but others raised it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:31 AM

I don't want to act as policeman here, by any means, but a lot of the recent posts should surely by the UK politics thread, not the one about Trump's Actions?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

You're assuming that you've been right all along about Jeremy Corbyn. The splits in the party were caused not by him but by his opponents (constantly briefing against him, using the bogus antisemitism nonsense as a stick to beat him with, refusing to be in his shadow cabinet, etc. A death wish by the party right...). There's a very interesting new book that's been given excellent reviews, even by the right-wing press (before you say anything) that gives what's been described as a very honest account of Corbyn's leadership and what went wrong for him, This Land by Owen Jones. I'll be buying it. Corbyn stunned the pundits by robbing May of her majority in 2017. The Tories didn't like it, the media didn't like it and the right wing in the Labour Party didn't like it. So, next time round, out came the big guns...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM

Funny though, isn’t it Steve, that when I appeal for unity in the Labour Party and support for the democratically-elected leader in order to concentrate on fighting the worst Tory government we’ve had for a great many years, I’m jumped on and lambasted by our resident Corbynistas?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

It's a bit like when there's plenty of money in the bank, Dave (not that I'd know). Little crises that might cause splits can be overridden. Money-in-the-bank for the Tories is their big majority. If they were to lose most or all of that majority next time round, there would be splits, but whether that would be enough to wreck 'em kind of hinges on Labour not having even bigger splits...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM

Is the Republican party torn by internal division? We can only hope our Tories will go the same way but, for now, that seems to be the prerogative of the Labour party!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:10 AM

You'd have to be a pretty dedicated Brit observer of US politics before you could get your head around the labyrinthine US system of caucuses/open and closed primaries/ conventions for choosing your presidential candidates. I've heard of a few small, or not so small, voices within the GOP lamenting what's happened to the party and calling for a reset. I'd like to hear from you savvy yanks whether you think there could be enough groundswell in the party to preclude him from standing again (obviating the need for congressional processes, which are in danger of failing, to remove the possibility), or whether there could still be too much popular support for him, thereby sweeping away those doubts. Again, it's always best in these debates to leave your personal wishes at the door...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM

Page not found, Kevin.

I fear that waiting until he tried to stand again for office before acting would considerably weaken the case against him. "Why didn't you go for him straight away?" would be a bit of a bugger to answer... On the other hand, failed attempts now, or attempts that got mired for months or years in the courts, would be just as bad. He isn't necessarily in a weak position, and that needs to be recognised.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 04:03 AM

You've got the wrong country, robomatic. Botswana appears to be a model democracy from all I've heard. I suspect maybe you might have meant its neighbour Zimbabwe, which isn't.
..................
The 14th Amendment didn't lay down any procedures for determining that someone qualified. I would think that that automatically means that the responsibility for determining it would ultimately lie with the courts, as with any other criminal act. I can't imagine that if Trump seeks to run there won't be an effort to challenge his right to do so through the courts. That would especially so if there was any question of his being entitled to any public .

Here is what I'm referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 03:25 AM

Giving a pardon to Steve Bannon seems a tactical error to me. His crime was essentially stealing the money Trump supporters sent in to pay for The Wall. That means it directly affects Trump supporters and says to them that "Stealing from you is no big deal." Most other pardons are more remote from individual voters but that one can be taken as a personal insult to Trump supporters. Thar's a risky game.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 12:58 AM

Well the true bar for Trump would have been, should have been, the Republican Party.



The entire world is beset with demogogues and autocrats usurping democracies:
India
Poland
Hungary
Russia (they were trying for a democracy for the second time in a hundred years).
Turkey
Phillipines

Most of these leaders have been genuinely, for want of a better word, elected.

And then there's Venezuela.

The EIU Democracy Index now rates the United States as a "flawed' democracy, but at least we're ahead of Botswana.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 09:10 PM

The charge that can be brought against him in the Senate can't be regarded as a criminal charge. If he's convicted in the Senate, which seems very unlikely, the Senate may then decide to bar him from future office. Apart from the obvious besmirching of whatever shredded reputation he still has, that would be about it. Any further steps, to convict him of a criminal offence, would have to go through the same process as anyone else would. As for the 14th Amendment, the processes that would be needed to bar him are not in place, and it's likely that Congress would have to pass new laws, then indict him, then try him... They could theoretically bar him, once that's all done and dusted, with a simple majority in each house. But you need to have the processes in place and you have to accept that he would have the right of appeal, which he would take as far as he could. It's very messy. Making Amendment 14 useful for circumstances such as the current ones would be far better sorted out in calmer times. As with changing the electoral college, it looks like pie in the sky. Come back exile. All is forgiven...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 08:01 PM

If, after confirming the impeachment, the Senate voted to bar Trump that would of course stop him running for president in 2024. But that's not the only way.

There's a strong case for arguing that he's already barred from doing that under the 14th Amendment. Whether that applies would need to be determined, ultimately in the Supreme Court. That could come through a case against him for his role leading up to January 6th and on that day.   If there was no such proceeding it would be likely to arise any time he starts to campaign for President.

Even if theSenate fails to muster enough votes against him to convict, that would in no way amount to an acquittal of the criminal charge of supporting insurrection.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:27 PM

Or was that indiference?
oh well.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:17 PM

As shit heads go you are a lovable one.
Gob shites who write this above the line are not lovable: "There was no African-American population, of any status, to speak of until the 20th century. Slavery was a political/moral abstraction tied to U.S. Statehood and a non-starter everywhere".
There are even mods who have fascist proclivities. Those guys are wrong but you are seldom wrong. Few people read as carefully as you.

When I look at the mobs in the capitol I see the great grand children of Indian killers and the descendants of massacre and lynch mobs of 1900.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 06:17 PM

"It could even say steve is a wanker but who could find it.'

Far more likely to say that Donuel is a little gobshite, probably in easy-to-spot headline capitals, I should have thought.

I can't see much appetite for reviving the idea of a Senate trial in a hundred days, I suspect, though that would be the only way - unless you know better - of ensuring that he couldn't stand again in 2024. Well, another way would be for the Republican Party to come up with a stronger and saner candidate...I haven't studied how that works...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 05:54 PM

I do keep returning to the concept that "the opposite of love is not hate but indifference."

The one thing that the great majority of blue voters, red voters, and east of the pond onlookers have in common is that WE CARE.

That may not seem like much, but it might be the only thing we can build upon. The trick is not to kill each other in working this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 05:48 PM

Robo in the begining of the end of Trump's bid to be President for life, YOU WON. Institutions win. But ya gotta admit , it was damn close - seconds in fact.
He almost pulled off a coup as inept as he is.
I checked The Congressional Research and found a yes and no answer to secret pardons. They can be secret but a FOIA request might find them.
Also the recipent would have to have something akin to a get out of jail card. The most ponderous lengthy boring law is the APA administrative procedures Act. I don't have 20 years to fine tooth comb that tome. It could even say steve is a wanker but who could find it. Brits discuss. If Donald has a big mac heart attack and fails to submit the pardons, then what? ;^0

Leonard Cohen Hallluya was chosen for the Covid 19 memorial with the Bidens tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 04:31 PM

Extract from the Guardian's latest weekly letter to its supporters (which include me):

...And hot on the heels of all this, we are likely to see the spectacle of Donald Trump’s unprecedented second impeachment trial. There is debate over whether the Senate can even hold a trial for an ex-president. Republican Sen. Tom Cotton, says: “The Founders designed the impeachment process as a way to remove officeholders from public office — not an inquest against private citizens.” Steve Vladeck, a University of Texas law professor, disagrees, saying the Constitution doesn’t just provide for removal but also for the Senate to bar that former president from ever holding federal office again. Watch this space …

Discuss, yanks, leaving your wishes to one side...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 03:49 PM

Yes, a woman in Pennsylvania told a former boyfriend that she had Nancy Pelosi's laptop computer that she planned to ship to Russia. I don't know where the computer is but she apparently turned herself in.

Pelosi wrote to the NSA folks (or one of those high-level security agencies) and asked them not to install the inexperienced boob pushed forward by Trump and the (I kid you not) "My Pillow" guy.

There will have to be a lot of reassigning if they can't fire some of the ticks embedded in the body politic by Trump. A good place to start is with DeJoy and that board of governors at the post office.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 03:30 PM

Well, I hope that time spent party-planning means inadequate time to free Trmp's personal miscreants, but he probably has people preparing the paperwork for that. But maybe they are as error prone as himself. I heard a story that there were some recent appointments to the security apparatus which kinda hinted that there would be folks who would demand to see secret files and so would be enabled to sell same. There, now I've contributed to the anti-Trmp rumor mill.

Not a rumor?: Apparently a woman was trying to find out how to send (or sell?) House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's pilfered laptop, from the Capitol invasion of 6 Jan, to Russia.

I couldn't make this stuff up. But I'm gonna check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 02:33 PM

I'm hearing breaking news stories now that a man from Ohio, a member of the "Oath Keepers," has been identified as one of the ringleaders of the assault on the Capitol on January 6. More information will certainly follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 02:19 PM

Without Trump they wouldn't have had a sea of mugs to swim in. And they wouldn't have had a Congress building set up for mostly easy entry, with the National Guard kept out of the way till they'd had time to do the necessary.

The mercy is that they were such incompetent terrorists. ISIS would have wiped the floor with these lads. They couldn't even manage the prayers properly.   But they'll learn. Next time they won't have such a cooperative management perhaps, but they'll be back.

I suspect that the genuine resistance shown by some of those defending Congress wasn't supposed to have happened. But I doubt if that will come out.

There are some genuine conspiracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 01:45 PM

An interesting article By Zac Gardner in Oz ABC News.

With the US Capitol attacks,
domestic terrorism in America has exploded into the mainstream

I'm sure Trump would not be happy about this statement, and it puts a different spin on the whole Capitol event:

"Extremist groups have spent years preparing for the next "American revolution" — and they've used Donald Trump more than he has used them.

"This is something they would have tried to do no matter who was president: they just saw an opening with him, and they took it."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 09:43 AM

In the law stretching tradition of Trump the remaining pardons to come are not required by law to be made public.
Secret pardons was something I never considered either.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM

McGrath you are remarkably well informed

Bill a native american calmness seems imbued in your stature.
The Kickapoo exist from the great lakes to Mexico so naturally I wandered in their territory in my lifetime. Americans are deliberatly not introduced to native americans in public school. At most I share a common enemy, white supremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 09:31 PM

It's just not true that it would take a Constitutional Amendment to effectively get rid of the problem with the Electoral College. To formally abolish the College would need a Constitutional Amendment, that¡s true, but there's another way that's almost in reach.

A good number of states, some of the Red, have agreed to the National Popular Vote Interstate Concord, which means that all their electoral college members would be legally bound to vote for the candidate who got most votes, but with that only kicking in once the number of electors Bound in that way reaches 270.

At present states with 196 electoral college votes are committed to that, but in a number of other states at least one part of the legislature has voted in favour, and the other has not rejected it. They would bring the number well above the crucial 270 votes.

It sounds to me as if there could be a realistic possibility of this being achieved within the next four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:32 PM

Don... the 'Kaw' was a shortened form of the Kanza .. there were many tribes whose names were muddled by early historians.

In Kansas, I knew several members of various tribes. The most notable was Blackbear Bosin who was also a photographer and showed me some things..he designed The_Keeper of the Plains, which I watched being constructed.
But in Lawrence, I worked with several Kickapoo, like Don Wenenis and Virgil Shoptese, who were forklift operators at a Stokely-Van Camp warehouse, and a couple of the nicest guys you'd ever want to know.

More here

...and Wichita itself was named for one tribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 05:37 PM

I haven't seen this in the news but my Hubby said that the rioters are going to demand legal costs from Trump because he is responsible. Now *that* will be an interesting story! I wonder how that's going to play out.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 05:15 PM

Hey Bill did you know Kansas was named after the Kaw tribe?
I think the 1st native american VP was 1/2 Kaw.

Trump's legal jeopardy grows as rioters blame Trump for their involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

The Electoral College was in place to help slave-holding states remain slave-holding states. It's way past time for it to go.

Trump is rude right up to the end as far as being gracious to the Bidens in the transition. Interesting article about the move out and the move in at the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 01:17 PM

To be clear, I thought of the song What Did I Do To Be So Black And Blue? because I think it is one of the most poignant lyrical expressions of the effects of racism that I have ever heard, so I think it would be the most appropriate last barb at a self-proclaimed racist's farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 01:00 PM

Yes, Bill D, I'm beginning to see how difficult it would be to make changes to the electoral college system.

One big benefit of living in the technological communication age is that the state results were known nationally and internationally as soon as the votes were tallied so it would be extremely difficult to tamper with the results. Compare that with the horse-and-buggy days and it's a completely different ballgame.

And gillymor, I was trying to think of some relevant and pointed music that the military style band could play to see him out.

Send in the Clowns? The classic silly circus tune, Entry of the Gladiators? Or maybe some of the best music of all time, songs by the great African American musicians like Louis Armstrong's When the Saints Go Marching In, or What Did I Do To Be So Black And Blue? or Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen or Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:36 PM

Helen.. I too view the electoral college system as an outdated anachronism that hamstrings fair presidential voting.

The problem is, getting rid of it would take a Constitutional amendment that not enough Southern states would support. Many of our problems are related to our basic **states rights** setup. In most countries there are things that can be done by vote or decree for the entire country.... here, on many matters, each state can opt out and write its own rules. Joe Biden plans to issue a mask mandate on Wednesday, but it will only apply to federal buildings and workers.

230+ years of our history are both an asset and a hindrance to certain types of progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:15 PM

leenia.... no, I have not been to Alabama. I HAVE been to Mississippi for two weeks....in 1964, on a voting rights march.
I'm assuming the nice, gentle people you dealt with in Alabama didn't view you as an "outside agitator" who was there to threaten their fundamental beliefs about racial equality. I was at that time living in Kansas, and rural folks there did not conduct lynchings... but it was best to be careful about your politics.

My extensive reading about progress & politics since 1964 has shown me that Mississippi has made more progress than Alabama. The town that I visited back then now has a black mayor. In 1964, I was threatened by the sheriff and police. Alabama is still electing people like Tommy Tubberville.

   In almost any place in the country, rural folk are 'generally' hard-working, friendly people who will help you and share with you... unless you are there to poke at their core prejudices.

Progress is slow... but much slower in many areas of the South. Georgia has made obvious progress... but 2 weeks in Alabama would test my ability to stay out of conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:49 AM

I may not get to the promised land of truth with you but I promise you will get to the promised land where people realize they were fooled by lies. The big lie will die. The algorithem lie cycle will change. Even the atom sized lie about me and you will pass away.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM

BW, it seems things were kind of quiet yesterday and banning trump from most social media platforms probably had a lot to do with it but we still have a few days until he slithers out of D.C., without the big military send-off he was begging for.

USA Today has a protest tracker that they periodically update.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 07:02 AM

Happy MLK DAY - assasinated by the right along with Malcome X, JFK, RFK...
That suceeded in virtually silencing the left until BLM
Assasination politics has returned. Trump's inability to hire competant people was his downfall.
There is now proof the White House paid between 10 grand and 20 grand to organizers of the January 6 coup.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 06:20 AM

Any news on how the ‘Armed March on Capitol Hill and All State Capitols’ which we’ve seen being touted around social media went off yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 12:07 AM

I predict a rough week ahead. People who bet probably have money on whether Trump will 1) pardon various of his criminal associates 2) pardon seditious rioters or 3) pardon himself.

The lunatic fringe is armed these days and have military tactics and training. Here's hoping they all decide to stay home.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:38 PM

"If Georgia can make progress, can Alabama be far behind?? Oh... maybe that's too much to hope for..."

Bill D, have you ever been to Alabama? I mean for a long time, like two weeks? I bet not.

My husband worked in rural Alabama for months and months, and he found most people there to be gentle, unsophisticated and friendly. Like many rural Americans, they are poor, looked down on, don't know how to get out of poverty, and are beset by alcohol, meth and opioids.

Small wonder that a wiley politician with a captive TV network promised them salvation and they believed it. Remarks like yours only make the situation worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 09:11 PM

I feel shock , sadness and shame for the country. I can believe that many will gloat at our misfortune. While I have written that I was seeing a coming civil war for the last 20 years i was still surprised by the attack.

45% of Republicans support or defend the attack, Insurrection is becoming a sport and even have pre attack news shows on TV. Until states seceed it is a sport for amateurs. Republicans would be better off if Trump could never run again. It would give them a better chance to lead the rabble in 2024. Niki Haley has that sense but not Ted Cruz.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 09:08 PM

Hmm. You still managed to elect Tony Abbott... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:40 PM

Thanks Bill D. My comments about re-working the electoral system were more about the electoral college system.

One person, one vote is the system in Australia and it seems to work well. Also, not having a presidential system means that a disproportionate amount of power does not rest on one person. It is spread across the whole political party which won the election, or in some cases, if there were a couple or a few political parties which won a lot of votes, there has to be negotiation between the parties in power. Donations to political parties is very heavily regulated and the big political rallies are not as over the top as the U.S. events. We also have some big media/broadcasting organisations which pride themselves on balanced, evidence-based reporting. We do still have the nut-job media and personalities, but that is usually balanced out by the more rational broadcasting and news organisations.

Most of the time we don't have a lot of political bickering and name calling, although we do have our moments.