BS: Trump Actions & Effects (NO new Trmp threads!)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 06:14 PM

Almost any criticism of 'Americans' fits... IF you put **some** in front of it. It is far too easy to spin a broad generalization of both the USA and 'what the rest of the world' thinks about us.
   This 4 years has been embarrassing to most of us...including many who voted for his Trumpness out of some hope his brash talk meant something. The excessive support for the idiocy he brought has exposed...more than usual... a lot of the racism and hate that still exists. It let them come out into the open more.
   The thing is, the basic idea(s) in the Declaration and Constitution are still operable and allowing us to begin recovery after learning a sad lesson.
   Soon.. 3 days.. we will have a president and congress tilted the other way, with cabinet members and a judiciary made up of competent, sane and dedicated people. In all my years, I have never seen so many appointments that were not based on political favoritism!
It will be tense as Biden & Co. try to correct things in 2 years..before another nervous election mess.... but plans are being made.

   You folks who...rightly... decry the mess we have made, keep making comments (as if I could stop you!) but don't judge too harshly until you see how it goes.
If Georgia can make progress, can Alabama be far behind?? Oh... maybe that's too much to hope for....
Still... *shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 03:43 PM

I think Americans are sometimes very starry eyes about the extent to which people in other countries see them as an inspiration, rather than a warning. Rapturous words about how it's seen as "a shining city on a hill" and so forth.

It's much more complicated than that. Along with an appetite for a slice of the cake and an appreciation of and genuine affection for of many aspects of the culture there's an irritation at the way these often seem to take over the world. When things go wrong for America the rest of the world's reaction includes a measure of satisfaction.

There's nothing unusual in this - much the same was equally true of the British Empire in its pomp, and even today by many. But I get the impression Americans may be more prone to believing their national myths.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:36 PM

Donny - Wow..

Whatever makes you think I am an Americanist...!!!???

I could never be Americaphobic, some of my best virtual friends are Americans..

I'd even let my daughter marry an American.. [Disclosure: I don't have any children..}

I don't hate America, there's much about the culture I love maybe even more than Britain..

No, what I am is angry with and afraid of America.

I quite reasonably fear America as a bigger real threat than either Putin, or China..
.. or perhaps even Israel and North Korea..

Ok.. Maybe the USA is still only second behind IS!S.. but up until Biden's win,
even that was debatable...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 12:06 PM

McGrath of Harlow, the Dr John Snow story is a good example of identifying the source of a problem and standing up for the evidence against people who denied the facts in favour of their beliefs. I saw a documentary on TV about that. Thanks.

And I don't think anyone here is happy to see the cracks in the US political system, except that if it is now so broken it might become obvious to the people in power that it needs to be re-jigged into something more robust i.e. an electoral system which can withstand attacks on its integrity from someone like Trump who doesn't have a moral compass.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:48 AM

Don, I don’t believe that any of us here hate the US, but I do think that many, perhaps most, of us hate the image of the US that 45 and his cabal have presented to the world over the past five years.

I worked for an American company, and with Americans, for thirteen years, and I know that Americans aren’t all ‘like that’.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:40 AM

But for the most part you are right. I can't deny it is as crazy and destructive as you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 11:30 AM

Kevin it may sound unintuitive to you at first but there is a real phenomenon in which 'the bigger the lie - the more believable'.
This realization came to light here during the Nixon administration.
The BIG lie has a lifetime but is quite robust. People react to the big lie in a rationalization that something so outrageous has to be true because no one would make up something that bizzare.
Combine this with a truth like racism and you have a powerful hybrid lie. Yes you may see this phenomenon at work in your own country.

pfr if you hate the 'US' that much so be it. If you are only expressing shaudenfreude you might be 'happiier than a pig in shit'.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 09:20 AM

One encouraging thing I heard on TV news - it was reported that it's claimed that since Trump got shutout of his internet megaphone sites, the number of his type of conspiracist posts about the "election steal" and so forth has gone down by no less than 70%. Not just his tweets but other people reposting them etc.

I wouldn't put too much weight on that, it doesn't sound like hard info, more of an impression - butit's still encouraging, and we need encouragement now if we ever did.

I'm reminded of the story of Dr John Snow and the Broad Street Pump, in a cholera outbreak in1854. Cutting off a source of pollutioncan have dramatic effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 05:46 AM

The millions who voted for Trump/Johnson/brexit were all the more easily manipulated because of the lack of political education. In a proper democracy it's crucial that the voters are made more resilient to wily politicians who pretend that their simple promises are the way to run the country. I'd hasten to add that a politician has to be wily in order to survive, but being wily doesn't mean being a liar, and a well-educated electorate would the more easily be able to see the difference. Of course, as soon as you advocate political education (by which I emphatically do not mean "citizenship" education) you're labelled a commie, a red under the bed, a raving leftie revolutionary... .

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:55 AM

I don't think they were all insane either Kevin. Any more than the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were insane either. They do have one thing in common. They were conned by populist lies. Not to say they were easily fooled either. The conmen, led by Trump and Johnson, are very good at it. They tell people what they want to hear and are very convincing. They were supported by mainstream media and well funded. It is the manipulation of politics by outside influences that needs to stop. In my opnion.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:23 AM

One thing that feeds into the ability of some seemingly rational people to hold on to the Steal lie is maybe that the allegations have been so over the top that they've been rejected by courts out of hand. When the rogue congress members called for a commission to examine fraud allegations, they may have been insincere, but it might have been a good idea to take them up on it, but require that such a commission should take place after the inauguration of Biden.

Clearly there's a case for examining the whole business of how elections are carried out in the states. There have to be some limits on the ability of states to make voting harder for some people by restricting the number of polling sites and so forth. Unpacking allegations of voting fraud would fit well within that context. (In fact I believe it is common practice in many democracies to examine that kind of thing after elections.

I don't suggest that the hardcore Trumpists would waver in the face of the strongest evidence that they've been lied to, but I can"t believe 75 million Americans are all irredeemably insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:22 AM

When does the rest of the world get to declare the USA a rogue failed state,
and send in military peace keeping missions...???

.. at least it's been proven beyond doubt America has stockpiled WMD...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:13 AM

Even Luxemburg won't allow Pompeo to visit for 'state dept talks'.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:11 AM

"Fascistbook"...

A too easy pun, which is no longer just a glib smartarse remark...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:04 AM

Don't forget the radicalization process was invented by Facebook with alogorhythems that refeed one point of view to maximize their advertising dollar. It is imo the biggest richest enabler.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:42 AM

donald trump.. Public Enemy No. 1...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:31 AM

Donuel's list of 15 Jan 21 - 03:50 PM has been in the news the last couple of days as prosecutors and FBI and various state investigators track down hundreds of offenders from the January 6 assault on the Capitol. News of each of their raisons d'être as they are arrested is disheartening. So many nasty groups out there, all unleashed and energized by the cretin Trump.

If that is what the makeup of the Republican party is now, there won't be a quick return to normal for the good people who did a yeoman's job of bashing Trump with the Lincoln Project. As I listened to them talk in interviews I was aware that once Trump is out, they would restore the GOP to it's old self - but now it's looking like that won't be so easy.

On my radio just now - "Pompeo spoke on Voice of America recently . . ." damn, that's another broken agency. Trump's folks trashed it into a horrible source of vitriol for the world, no news or leading by example. One more thing for the "to do" list.

Subject: RE: BS: A very important post
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

IF TRUMP CAN RESPOND TO A NATIONAL EMERGENCY he could declare a National emergency and thus impose martial law keeping Biden from assuming control.
This is why there is an overwhelming presence of national guard in DC so a national emergency of riots can not take place.
There is chatter and intelligence to support this scenario.
Mike Lindell was at the White House yesterday and supports the martial law plan according to the Washington Post.
Because Trump's Plan A failed to kill lawmakers on DC a second wave of Inauguration riots seems like plan b.
I don't know if a hypothetical takeover of the Madison Wisconsin capitol building would be enough to justify National Emergency martial law.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:05 AM

Trump is so virulent he got a second dose of impeachment this week just like the
Covid vaccine.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 07:51 AM

Protest and dissent is at a new low. Dissent merchandise sold on the internet are things like small buttons that say "science is real"
How provocative is that?

operation warp speed should be called warped greed.
There are no US government reserve vaccines left.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 06:08 AM

For once, Bonz, we are in agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:48 AM

So the last execution has taken place under fucking shit trump, of a man convicted 24 years ago, which is cruelty beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:01 AM

Thanks Robo.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:32 PM

Doug Chadwick:

My reference to "pull 'is own 'ead off rather than see Doug" was a reference to an old Monty Python sketch on how non-desirous a criminal was to have to answer to the master criminal Doug Piranha who used...............sarcasm. "'E knew all the tricks, metaphor, pathos, pun, litotes, and satire!"

The regular practise of Question Time seems to be somewhat more erudite and brassy than American legislators are wont to endure in modern times. The mastery both questioner and PM have to have to endure this swift repartee seems to be well beyond what puffed up yankee solons can view with impunity.

As to harsh desires some of us may have regarding our outgoing President and his 'sisters and his cousins and his aunts' (That's a Gilbert and Sullivan reference). some of you might enjoy the recent "Squeeze Me" novel by Carl Hiaasen in which the Current Occupant runs into problems on his golf resort when large burmese pythons begin to show up, apparently by invitation, to embarrass him and his supporters, to say the least.

In the meantime, yesterday I got my first covid vaccine shot from an Anchorage school system nurse. Reported on in the vaccine thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:36 PM

There is a definate over reaction show of force in DC.
There is also a over reaction by Fox News accusing Democrats of lies, riots and a plan to frame Trump. btw they say lockdowns are a lie and don't work. who knew

what happened to tar and feathers?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:33 PM

Really? What happened to tar & feathers and a rail?

I like parades!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:21 PM

Now the old dickhead wants a military send-off on inauguration day and I think we should give it to him. Strap him to an ICBM, point it towards Mar a Lago and start the countdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:55 PM

Like ancient world god-like emperors
decreeing their families, servants, soldiers, horses, and dogs
be entombed with them
when they die...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:50 PM

Who are the extremist rioters?

They are extremely varied-
Qanon- a virtual religious cult of Trump prophecies and magical thinking
Nazis- are under diffrent titles; boogaloo boys, proud boys and KKK spin offs
Tea party mutants- people who had truth decay from the start and evolved into predators
Religious right- From Jerry Falwell to Bob Jones protestant graduates
2nd Amendment fans- Paranoid since Obama who prefer Sandy Hooks to gun control
Rush Limbaugh veterans- People who always hated women and others smarter than themselves
Typical racists- Exploiters and folks secretly envious of blacks
Militias- 1%'s, oath keepers and lodges that play soldier on weekends.
AK 47 - enthusiasts looking for a reason

There are others of course but the main thing is that they do not get along with each other or authorities.

Americans- Exposed to media that shapes their hate strategicly

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:35 PM

As witnessed, Raggytash, by the fact that Trump said he would be there with them at the Capitol and then held a big party and watched it all on television and delayed calling in the National Guard until Mike Pence finally did it.

Yep, pfr, very similar to the Jonestown massacre.

I always knew Trump was stupid, but how stupid is it to kill off your own fan base by denying that the virus is real and deliberately putting them in danger? I don't think rational thinking is in his repertoire either.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:25 PM

Trump is like all bullies, he is a coward. He will never put himself in physical danger.

He might put his wife or his children in that position but never himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:21 PM

Helen - yeah.. trump's larger mass scale equivalent of the cult poison suicide Jonestown Massacre..

..or if he goes for the 'Alamo option'.. the Waco siege...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:37 PM

pfr said, "The threat of time on death row might appeal to his instinct for cutting a deal for clemency
on condition he fucks off into quiet exile...???"

But, what's the probability of Trump being able to stay out of trouble and keep his big mouth shut for any length of time, let alone the rest of his life. And as leeneia said, the Hydra effect would kick in and the Trump sprogs would kickstart their political careers.

As Raggytash said about seeing "Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant" those two responses are not in a sociopath's repertoire.

And pfr, "But with all the trumpzi internal terrorists at large, you might need a bigger camp... " don't forget to factor in the superspreader events facilitated by Trump for his massive fan base. Sadly, the massive fan base might be drastically reducing day by day and the blame for that lies squarely in Trump's lap.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:29 PM

They need to close Guantanamo and use the prisons for people who really need to be in there (Trump domestic terrorists) now that they will hopefully release those charged wtih minor drug offenses that were way over-prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:16 PM

It's quite handy trump decreed Guantanamo Bay should remain open for business..

But with all the trumpzi internal terrorists at large, you might need a bigger camp...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:48 PM

Thanks, elf.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:49 PM

The ? in my last post was meant to be a smiley face.

---

They don't show; I edited in a text version of it for you. ;-) ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:42 PM

I'm glad the Nurmemburg trials didn't sentence Goering to humilliation, atonement and repentance.
Nazi sympathsizers and white supremists come in many flavors I guess.
Or am I being too harsh on Rudy and friends?
Kids torn from their parents and put in barb wire camps have still not been reunited.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:40 PM

pfr, your fun game might be more fun if the answer weren't so obvious. :-)


When trump contracted COVID-19 I hoped it would croak him because given his continuing disinterest in dealing with the virus as a public health issue his death would have saved a lot of innocent lives and we wouldn't be in this dire situation now. When and how he sheds this mortal coil is now of no consequence to me as long as he's gone.
A Pew Poll conducted from Jan.8-12 has him a at a 29% approval rating, the lowest of his term with a note worthy decline among Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:36 PM

Repentant is too much to ask for. Humiliated perhaps not.

But what's really needed is to find some way to open the eyes of some of his supporters.   There is always a significant number of people in any society who are basically lost souls when it comes to thee kind of things. But generally they are a relatively small proprtion - call them a fringe, call them a gardcore, but there aren't tgat geat a proprtion.

But what is frightening is that belief in Trumpism and the lies of Trump appear to be actually shared by the large majority of those who voted for Trump. It was easy enough to imagine why people might choose to opt for either of the candidates in both Presidential elections, as in any election, But this kind of brand loyalty is very hard to make sense enough. Hold your nose and vote for what seems like the lesser of two evils - but to actually like and Trust someone like Trump, that is unconceivable.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:50 AM

"Me, I want to see Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant. They can't atone for their sins if they're dead."

Charmion, we have an expression this side of the pond "in your dreams" which means that is absolutely not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

pfr
Abraham bound his son Isaac on an altar at Moriah long ago, as he had been instructed by God. An angel stopped Abraham when he was about to slay his son and switched Isaac with a ram!
Donald bound his son Donald on an alter in Maralago, as he had been instructed by Satan. A demon stopped Donald when he was about to slay his son to reverse election results and switched Donald with Donald!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:39 AM

I'm with Doug Chadwick on refraining from wishing death on others.

According to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, Mr T's supporters in Congress are claiming that his inflammatory rhetoric is just colourful figurative talk, and it's not his fault certain people took him seriously.

Me, I want to see Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant. They can't atone for their sins if they're dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:36 AM

trumpzi militia guerillas would be taking semi auto machine guns, hunting rifles, and body armour
to a Drones and Cruise missiles fight...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:21 AM

donald trump, Messianic leader of a death cult...???

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:20 AM

Most people know that the 3rd Reich soldiers took Pervatin (crystal meth) and later oxycodone. It seems the rag tag nazis in America do too.
I wwwould hope they will also use Himmler's little helpers (cyanide)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM

Comedic relief can cause some grief
but is worth the needed release

Pense was seconds away from a crossfire and lynching event.
It would have changed the nature of the gallows humor if he had been shot or hung.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM

Doug - Not a time for squeamish moral superiority bollocks..

I am a pacifist, but not an absolutist pacifist.

As a general rule I would prefer not to wish death on anybody.

I am anti death penalty,
but accept there are valid extreme exceptions when it may be a last resort viable pragmatic solution...

trump may be one of them..

The threat of time on death row might appeal to his instinct for cutting a deal for clemency
on condition he fucks off into quiet exile...???


Here's a fun game..

Let's guess trump's response to being told by a higher authority
that he could make things right again
by either sacrificing his own, or his son's life...???

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM

PFR,
I know you like to use sarcasm to make your point, but some of your last few posts, on how to get rid of Trump and his close supporters, seem decidedly unpleasant. I am sure you can find some valid points to make without hoping for people's deaths.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

Ideally, trump and his close allies choose a glorious Alamo style last stand on one of his estates..
Get it over quick, done and dusted..
Start slowly rebuilding the US...

Some worshippers would write the history of his heroic martyrdom.
Most of the world would write him off as a pathetic failed tyrant..

.. adding, trump to the list of saddam, gadafi, bin laden, etc...