BS: Trump Actions & Effects (NO new Trmp threads!)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:55 AM

Liz Truss is talking about moving the British embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, regarded as occupied territory, in a move that echoes what Trump did a few years ago. It would be an incendiary, disastrous move that would be seen as strongly anti-Palestinian. I can't help thinking that, in aligning herself with Trump, she's convinced herself that he's going to be the next president and that she wants to be onside with him. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:48 PM

You can scoff if you want, but we live in dangerous times for Democracy."

I am not scoffing, and I worry just as much as you do about threats to democracy. I just wish that you and Donuel would look at the complicated history of right-wing politics in Italy - which is hardly my fault! - before coming out with throwaway remarks. Ms Meloni is a very nasty piece of work, opposing immigration, abortion, gay marriage and anything LGBT, among other undesirable traits. But we analyse her in terms of today, not in terms of a murderous fascist who died nearly eighty years ago. And today's context, in which she will have to operate, is far removed from the context of eighty years ago. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:47 PM

I've never felt better. I joined a new cult. The Constitution Boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:12 PM

Trump doesn't, but he is the puppet for a lot of nasty folks in the GOP. I mentioned that before - he doesn't understand it, but as long as the party will let him get away with what he wants he doesn't care.

The original party in Italy may have been banned but the modern day party following in it's footsteps presents many of the same real hazards. You can scoff if you want, but we live in dangerous times for Democracy.

My day just opened up tomorrow as the January 6 committee has postponed the noon hearing since Hurricane Ian is hitting Florida about then. Well, if they must.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 02:28 PM

Naturally, that was to robo. Keep well, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 02:27 PM

I can see where you're coming from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 02:26 PM

Virtually poetic and actually funny post.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 02:20 PM

To me the Trump Italy tie has been Berlusconi, the media magnate and BS artist who prefigured Trump and the Trump era quite accurately. The assumption of a vapid center stage where non-nutritious froth takes the place of useful social ideas, and the public eats it up. Berlusconi got re-elected. DANGER WILL ROBINSON.

Independent of the 'good'ness or 'bad'ness of the politics, Trump does not have enough principles to be a Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 01:42 PM

It is not essentially the same party. It is descended from a group of Mussolini supporters formed AFTER the war, AFTER Mussolini died and AFTER his party was banned. After over 75 years, right-wing alliances in Italy have evolved, merged, split and morphed many times. You can explore these things online very easily. She is a nasty piece of work all right but she is operating under constraints that were not there at the end of the war. Her election was undesirable, no doubt about it. She opposes abortion and gay marriage. So do millions of Christians all over Europe and the US. She is not minded to take Italy out of the EU, so she will have to embrace democracy and the rule of law. Totalitarianism of the kind that leads to fascism does not and cannot exist in ruling parties in the EU. That doesn't mean that there can't be bigots, populists and the rest, and there's no room for complacency, but equally there is no room for lazy labels either. She will have to be constructively engaged. That is a bottom line. Context is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 01:25 PM

Christ on a bike.

Mussolini's party was banned after the war. It does not exist. Like the dead parrot, it is a late party. It has ceased to be. It is on its back, belly-up and has turned up its toes. It has shuffled off its mortal coil and gone to join the choir invisible. Unlike you, I check things out before I post. I don't always get it right but at least I try. Might I suggest that you try the approach!

Now then, this is supposed to be a Trump thread. I know how much you love him, so why do we not post to it unless Trump is somehow involved. Just a polite suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 01:16 PM

According to Rachel Maddow it is essentially the same party as Mussolini founded, just recently trying to act like they're like the rest of us to fool inattentive voters. Rachel played some recent clips from Meloni's recent speeches. She's one scary ass politician. And here in the US, some other scary ass politicians are celebrating the win. Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Ted Cruz under fire for celebrating Italian far-right victory
Italian politician Giorgia Meloni’s party traces its roots to the Second World War-era fascist movement founded by Benito Mussolini

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 01:06 PM

Now you are lying. You called it an obsession and not important.
Also https://www.eurotopics.net/en/286727/meloni-campaign-with-controversial-flame-logo

I will not obey your constant commands to; Stop and Don't.
I do not consider another POV as an insult.

Your last post was more reasonably constructed but almost accepting of fascism because it always has been around. I have a sterner viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 07:03 AM

Don't be so insulting.

The party which got most votes in Italy is NOT the "very same party of Mussolini," and it behoves you to desist from making false and uninformed statements like that. The Brothers Of Italy party can be regarded as a descendant of the Italian Social Movement, a party formed AFTER the war, AFTER the death of Mussolini. The fascistic sentiments of the Brothers are similar to those of the defunct ISM but the current context is wildly different, which is entirely the point. Any Italian government must live within the constraints of the EU and there is little appetite in Italy for leaving. Your claims about fascism in Europe and in your House are way too simplistic and off the mark, and what you do is what you always do, throw the baby out with the bathwater. No-one is saying that there isn't a problem and that we should be complacent, but, as I've said, the threat of the return of fascism in Europe has been here since the war, it will continue to rumble beneath the surface and we need to be vigilant - and to address what it is that makes far-right politics attractive to disaffected people. We can talk about that, but your ill-informed, throwaway nonsense is not a sensible part of the conversation.

As for Trump, I've dismissed no such thing. In fact, for the last couple of years I've got myself in trouble here several times for criticising the complacency and near-paralysis in your country over failing to do something about him (preferably to put him where he so patently belongs, behind bars). "You don't live here so you can't know..." I've expressed the opinion that his re-election would be a danger to the whole world. So please stop making things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 06:29 AM

Why downplay the effect of the very same party of Musselini that is now in charge? Downplaying is what the fascists are doing, be it Italy, Hungary, and even in more countries where gains are being made by the right.
As usual* by contradicting me you are contradicting the truth, but this time with dire outcomes.

*You used to dismiss the danger of Trump when I have brought it up over the years. You are only making your opinion irrelevant in this matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:50 AM

Factions with aspirations toward fascism have always existed in Europe. The founding sentiment of the nascent EU (the Common Market, or "The Six") was to promote such strong cooperation among nations that fascism could never again take over. The ground rules are human rights, democracy and the rule of law. The current far-right faction in Italy, no matter what their fascistic inclinations are, either fully abide by those tenets or Italy leaves the EU. That is not going to happen. There are and there always will be fascist rumblings. It's beholden on democratic governments in Europe to understand where they come from. The easiest targets for fascists are the disaffected and the disadvantaged in society. If governments prioritise reducing the gap between rich and poor and making society more equal and fair, those rumblings will be all we'll get. I can't see it being any different in the US, but your first priority is to get off your arses and put Trump behind bars.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 09:28 PM

Three more countries may have their own Brexit. I suppose you have seen the growth of fascism in Europe again.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 01:14 PM

"I'd be trying to find a way to fix that whole Brexit mess."

Not so much a case of trying to fix it, more a case of trying to learn to live with it.

Sometimes people will vote for things that we don't agree with. Nowt as queer as folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 12:20 PM

Misrepresentation can be both a civil wrong (a tort) or a criminal wrong. If the misrepresentation rises to the level of fraud, a defendant can face serious legal consequences. If you think you have a case, remember my lawyer is famous for getting court costs assessed as part of my restitution.
Showing up in Court is not required. Go for it.

Note how Trump misrepresents daily yet is never charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:50 AM

Well you misrepresented what I said, which was quite annoying, actually, and you have so far failed to backtrack on that. You'll find very few people posting here who wouldn't love to have the brexit mess sorted. If you think Putin (who I hate at least as much as anyone else) turned the brexit vote, let's be having your evidence. Also, please apprise me as to which logical fallacy I committed in that post. At least I didn't carelessly misrepresent anyone, did I?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:45 AM

147 Republicans Voted to Overturn Biden's Election Result
There is a spectrum of neo fascist Congress people From Greene to Cruz.
These folks are neo fascists in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 09:28 AM

Whataboutism doesn't win an argument, Steve. Logical fallacies come into play when you can't make your case. Our news sources are just fine, they are many and varied, and yes, they include Guardian, BBC, CBC, and Al Jazzera. How many voted for whom is a matter for both or our nations to be concerned about. If I were you, I'd be trying to find a way to fix that whole Brexit mess. Putin had a hand in pushing that vote to the finish line (just has he had a hand in meddling and even funding the Trump campaigns.)

Don, you're correct - Trump thinks that if he's running for president that protects him from prosecution. I *think* that he doesn't want to give up his current status quite yet because it gives him a lot more wiggle room to spend the dollars he gets as donations. Once he's a candidate the rules change (meaning he has to work harder to not follow them). He still wants to get donations from the suckers who still want to send them. For him it's #FreeMoney.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:16 AM

It's pretty offensive to make the oft-repeated claim that people outside the US can't read good sources of news and be up to speed on what's happening in your country. It's a long time since we foreigners had to rely on two-day-old copies of the Washington Post. You would do well to read what I said properly before you do the old knee-jerk. I did not say that I understand your news better than you. I did say that we have news outlets that in some cases might be even better than yours. Even you resort to the Guardian and BBC at times. As for over my head, well I don't know how you vote, or if you vote, but I do know that seventy or eighty million of your countrymen voted in a way that showed that your politics is way over their head. And comments about your House being a House of white supremacists or neofascists is simply scaremongering nonsense that betrays the resort to rather poor news sources. We are all in this global village together now.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:14 AM

We are not out of the woods yet. Trump is backed into a corner of having to run for President to seek protection from the Republican House.
His tools of hate and fear will likely become more strident.
The unknown factors can possibly throw events his way.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 07:15 AM

Our news says the Pound Sterling has dropped 1/7th since your new PM took office. They are also on Italy watch with the election of a right wing leader that has spoken glowingly of Musllini and Putin.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 09:41 PM

That's really pretty offensive, Steve, and you're treading into territory that is over your head. Telling us that we don't understand our own news sources and YOU understand them better?

Don is correct on this. Trump doesn't understand what neo-fascist means, but all of the tendencies support his wish to be a dictator or a king and to keep getting richer, so he positioned his people to take advantage of the GOP misbehavior. And he's promoting more of them to get into office.

Neo-fascism is a post-World War II far-right ideology that includes significant elements of fascism. Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, racial supremacy, populism, authoritarianism, nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment, as well as opposition to liberal democracy, social democracy, parliamentarianism, liberalism, Marxism, neoliberalism,[1] communism, and socialism.[2] As with classical fascism, it proposes a Third Position as an alternative to market capitalism.[3]

The House and Senate are trying to pass laws now that update an 1800's law regarding certifying elections. If McCarthy comes into the Speaker's office he could refuse to certify an election of a Democrat who wins in 2024.

Meanwhile, the January 6 Committee will hold another hearing on Wednesday, Sept. 28 at noon Central Time.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:53 PM

You yanks often seem to think that we don't get the news here like you do. Well we do, and, who knows, our outlets could be even better than yours. If you think that your House is neofascist, well all I can conclude is that you're reading the wrong paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:36 PM

As if you know

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 05:58 PM

Your Republican house may harbour a number of undesirable traits, but it is decidedly not neofascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 04:53 PM

With a neo-fascist Republican House, the near election could be the last democratic election in the US for the foreseeable future.
Constitution crises could be made weekly.
Remember they did not have the House for their last attempted decertification of the popular vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:41 PM

No, its the dark side Vader trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 10:29 AM

Now Donny is claiming (in a FOX interview) he can just think about it and the documents are de-classified. That's his Jedi trick that is gaining traction now.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 07:10 AM

34% approval of DJT.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 08:47 PM

But seriously the structures of our civilized lives fall apart so easily. There is no bottom to what people are willing to do to one another. Bannon would happily embark upon the interrupted journey of Himmler.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 12:50 PM

Dave, all sorts of people believe in the orange Cheeto.
I met a senior lady at the drug store that even believes the IRS was dispatching armed troops. Militias believe, Q Anon believes and the strangely religious right believes. 4 out of 5 insurrectionists prefer Donald Trump over other leading criminals.

Even if the downtrodden know better, they know they have a better shot of a power position with a stupid tyrant than an educated obedient elected public servant.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 11:56 AM

I've followed this little financial newsletter for a while. They're usually off on topics that major media ignore, but they're on this one today also: NYS Attorney General Documents a Decade of “Staggering” Fraud by Donald Trump, the Man Allowed to Run the U.S. Government from 2017 to 2020

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 11:41 AM

Yeah, AG James suit was a civil one but as the CNN article stated- "James said she believes state and criminal laws may have been violated and referred the matter to the US attorney’s office for the Southern District of New York and the Internal Revenue Service."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 10:38 AM

When condolences were offered to the UK when we first learned of Elizabeth's death, various former presidents were heard offering their personal condolences and leaving it there. Trump tried to offer them for his family and for the American people. Like he was entitled to speak for all here. Biden offered his own magnanimous remarks that covered the American people and no one said anything about Trump's attempt.

The Attorney General of New York isn't charging Trump with a crime, but she has enough evidence of his wrong-doing to start a civil suit asking for redress. $250 million. And forwarded on the evidence to the DOJ and the IRS to add to what they already have. She used a 200-page report to do it.

Every time something like this happens (the search, now the suit) it seems to have larger ramifications than the last big event. We are all waiting for the other shoe to drop and the indictment to be filed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:43 AM

I see the orange one is now claiming that had he have still been in power he would have had a better seat at the Queen's funeral than Biden did. Do some people still believe his nonsense?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:43 AM

The hits keep coming for the old flim flam man. An appeals court rebuked his personal judge, Aileen Cannon, yesterday and allowed the DOJ access to the Mar a Lago docs.
NPR
The Jan. 6 House committee starts up again next week and distinguished nutbag, Ginni Thomas will talk to them.
I'm still not convinced that we'll ever see him styling an orange jump suit though, the old bastard is slippery as a frog and always insulates himself from culpability with a phalanx of fall guys, some of whom could include members of his rotten progeny.

Subject: RE: BS:The Evil Empire Strikes Back
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:35 AM

SATAN HIMSELF RESURRECTED ROY COHN AND HAS PUT HIM ON LOAN TO TRUMP !
Garland and the JD moaned "Why has God forsaken us and has given Trump everything he wants"?
Satan said, "because God believes in fake news too, how do you think he became God"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 06:50 AM

Bribing or compromising the guards is a criminal's usual modus operendi. It works for armored truck robberies to Wall Street mortgage bundling schemes. Thomas Registry was the Security Guard for Wall St.
It is what Trump did in NYC. In many cases he didn't bother with bribes or gifts and just lied.

He also used the Force like Darth Vader to telepathically declassify secret documents.

He has now declared his secret identity to be the real Q Anon.
He said, "stand back and stand by Q Anon, the storm is coming".

Shit storms work because people feel emboldened and anonymous in a like-minded crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 12:16 PM

The doo doo deepens for the Donald and his litter of rats.

CNN

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 10:45 AM

The "Special Master" seems disinclined to let Donald and his chorus get away with the shit they've tried to pull. He doesn't want to see the classified documents, and said so when Trump's team asked the judge to nudge along the process so they could see them. The judge indicates that anyone should see those documents on a "need to know" basis and the Trump team has no need to see them. Or does the civilian who stole them in the first place.

They chose a former FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court) judge for their special master. It has been pointed out that whoever on Trump's team named this guy (was it because he's from Brooklyn?) is probably out of favor at this point. Best part of the day was when the judge told them they couldn't have their cake and eat it too. If they want the documents returned they have to show which are declassified, and even if they do, they're still property of the govt. This civil suit isn't helping The Donald.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 02:38 PM

Donnie is now wearing a Qanon pin and playing the Q anon theme song.
Like Alquida I can not spell Qanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 10:43 AM

They claim it's an "old Christian salute" pointing toward heaven.

On top of that, here's a 300-page book that argues Trump is Christ:

https://www.amazon.com/President-Donald-Trump-Son-Man/dp/1977249752

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 07:50 AM

The Trump salute is the same as Hitler's nzzi salute except one must extend one index finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:41 PM

They also had a waiting boat to take weapons across the Potomac river to arm more people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 01:22 PM

Proud Boys memo reveals meticulous planning for ‘street-level violence’

Document of 23 pages shows the lengths to which the far-right group goes to prepare for potentially violent encounters and exposes the militaristic structure and language it has adopted

The document is so dowdy and formal it resembles the annual minutes of a society of tax accountants. Its index lists sections on “objectives” and “rules of engagement” and carries an “addendum” that provides recommendations for hotels and parking.

On the cover, two words give a clue to the notoriety of the group that produced it: “MAGA” and “WARNING”. That and the date: 5 January 2021, the day before the US Capitol attack.

What goes unsaid on the cover and is barely mentioned throughout the 23 pages is that this is the work of one of the most violent political gangs in America, the far-right street fighters told by Donald Trump to “stand back and stand by”: the Proud Boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Sep 22 - 07:01 AM

The new trump judge ruled that Trump is above the law and deserves special treatment. She also said who knows if documents are really secret? She will probably be overruled in a week.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 22 - 04:16 AM

Bit of a stitch-up on the Special Master front or what?