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BS: Trump Actions and Effects

DMcG 14 Jan 21 - 03:39 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 21 - 04:38 AM
DMcG 14 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM
Doug Chadwick 14 Jan 21 - 05:02 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 21 - 05:12 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM
DMcG 14 Jan 21 - 07:52 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jan 21 - 08:14 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 08:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jan 21 - 08:45 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM
Jeri 14 Jan 21 - 09:53 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 10:44 AM
Jos 14 Jan 21 - 11:33 AM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 12:28 PM
gillymor 14 Jan 21 - 02:45 PM
gillymor 14 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM
Ebbie 14 Jan 21 - 02:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM
Ebbie 14 Jan 21 - 05:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jan 21 - 06:10 PM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 06:41 PM
Donuel 14 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jan 21 - 07:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jan 21 - 07:42 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 21 - 07:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 PM
Ebbie 15 Jan 21 - 12:50 AM
Helen 15 Jan 21 - 03:03 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 06:29 AM
Donuel 15 Jan 21 - 06:49 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 21 - 06:59 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 07:10 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 07:24 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 21 - 08:17 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM
Donuel 15 Jan 21 - 08:35 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jan 21 - 09:02 AM
DMcG 15 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM
gillymor 15 Jan 21 - 09:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Jan 21 - 10:04 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM
Donuel 15 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 03:39 AM

I admit I don't fully understand the consequences of being impeached. There is the Senate trial - at some time - which might find him guilty of incitement to sedition. As far as I can tell, that would carry a penalty of up to 20 years imprisonment in normal circumstances if passed in an ordinary court. But all it seems to do in this case is allow further votes on actions like barring from standing again, and the Senate could, in principle, decide not to do that. It does not seem to carry a penalty in its own right.

We had something similar in the UK. Dominic Cummings was found to be in contempt of Parliament. His response was to shrug and say so what? That looks very close to the US position.

Does found being guilty as charged by the Senate carry a penalty in itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 04:38 AM

Impeachment is a separate matter from due process of the law of the land, the latter being the way to get him in jail, as with any other citizen. A Senate trial after impeachment is different. If Trump is convicted there, it wouldn't be seen as a punishment, though obviously his reputation would be completely shot. More importantly, the Senate would then have the power to bar him from future office. Of course, conviction by the Senate after impeachment wouldn't preclude him from facing criminal charges. Whether what would probably be a protracted and very public criminal show trial would be in the country's best interests is a moot point, in m'humble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 04:45 AM

conviction by the Senate after impeachment wouldn't preclude him from facing criminal charges

You may well be right, but I would not be surprised to hear cries of 'double jeopardy' from his lawyers.

Let's leave Trump out of this as a specific, and consider what 'a President' might do.   You can imagine two extremes: something extremely serious, like personally burning down the House, and the minimum that might be a successful impeachment, say misuse of the Presidential Seal.

If looks to me as if the range of actions available to the Senate after a conviction are the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:02 AM

.......... pull his own 'ead off rather than see Doug.


???

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:12 AM

Your hard man reputation clearly goes before you, Doug! :-)

The double jeopardy argument doesn't wash. That would apply only to due process of law, which the impeachment process ain't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM

DMcG In a nutshell https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/impeachment


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:52 AM

Thanks for that, Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM

A Pardon after a guilty verdict is a different can of worms, and would President Pense then be willing to do so? The federal 'punishment' is removal from office.
A guilty Trump then becomes game for any State prosecution.
Civil Courts csn fine or jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:14 AM

It can't just end at trump.
His son, and close allies and enablers, must also somehow face justice.
At the very least
permanent barring from public office and influence..

Trump is a toxic figurehead.
But cutting off the head of the snake does not finish off his malignant legacy.
Other corrupting heads are waiting for their turn to quickly grow back to replace him..

They must be preemptively stopped alongside with trump...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:18 AM

Even if the president is impeached and subsequently convicted for abusing their pardon power, the remedy would be limited to removal from office and disqualification from future office. So the individual president is removed from power, but their acts are not undone.
In fact, the CRS noted that some have argued impeachment is “useless against a president . . . who grants controversial pardons in the very last hours of his tenure.” Meaning the president can grant whichever pardons they want just before they leave office and nothing can stop them.

And there are no other ways to stop a presidential pardon either. A footnote in a 1977 William and Mary Law Review paper said, “the pardon remains effective despite removal of the president for issuing it. Once delivered, a pardon cannot be revoked.” And there’s no evidence that this has changed in the 40 years since it was written.

So, a pardoned person will remain pardoned even if a president is impeached and convicted. Once the paperwork is complete and the person is officially pardoned by the president, there is no precedent for undoing it.

Courts will probably overturn a self pardon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:45 AM

That's as good a reason as any for rogue dictatorships being swiftly 'remedied'
by the targeted deaths of the dictator, his sons, generals, and regime political & religious leaders...

Something the USA has been ruthlessly effective with in overseas interventions in foreign lands...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM

I agree

The big picture of US politics and leftist economic policy from FDR's NEW DEAL faded away by 1960 with conservatives whittling aqy and regulating away the New Deal. Since then the partys in the US became the same except for civil rights. Tweedle dum and tweedle dee. Monopolies emerged again. We even farmed out child labor. There has been NO true left for 60 years. When the only difference between Dems and Republicans was racial politics, Trump played it up to the max.
...........................
Love me I'm a liberal democrat except for economic policy against blacks - was the reality of institutional racism.
............................
A true FDR left is needed now because of the pandemic depression inequality and wealth poverty chasms. How we get ahead is the challenge in light of the conspiracy population.

Evil genius' got us here and good genius' are needed to get ahead.


Now you know more about US political evolution than 95% of Americans.
Yeah the statistic is my guess :^/


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 09:53 AM

"And there’s no evidence that this has changed in the 40 years since it was written."

Think how little precedent has been set so far regarding impeached Presidents. This is the fourth time a President has been impeached, and two of those times were Trump. I think the possibility of changing things has to do with WHY he was impeached, and why the pardons should be thrown out.

I don't believe he can pardon himself. AFAIK, no President has ever done that, but the founding fathers definitely didn't have a "get out of jail free" card in mind when they wrote it into the Constitution. It was supposed to be about righting wrongs, and justice.

But I am not a lawyer, and all of the above is opinion/supposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 10:44 AM

Most people frown on those who try to put a crown or halo on themselves. The supream Court Justice to preside at Clintons impeachment sewed 5 stars on his robe sleeves to out rank all generals. Impeachments have their improvisational side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Jos
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 11:33 AM

In order to pardon himself, wouldn't he first have to admit that he had done something wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 12:28 PM

He can stay silent.(if only) He would only be considered guilty by law and pardoned.
Suffering punishment and imprisonment will not come from the Federal Government.

It will/could come from State Civil courts and monetary suits from corporations, banks, Joe Sixpack etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:45 PM

"Suffering punishment and imprisonment will not come from the Federal Government."
You must have a crystal ball because the efficacy of a self-pardon is not a foregone conclusion. The D.C. Attorney General is under the jusridiction of the federal government and he's investigating the speakers who ginned up the crowd before the Jan. 6 insurrection, which include trump. The feds will also be interested in his recorded phone call to the Georgia Sec. of State in which he begged for votes as well as his attempt to coerce Pence into unlawfully overturning the election results. He's nowhere near out of the woods with the feds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:46 PM

"jurisdiction"


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 02:56 PM

As to Jos' question, merely accepting a pardon implies that one has committed unlawful acts. Many a person who has been charged with a crime has refused a pardon because of that implication.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM

Actually to accept a pardon would merely imply that you believed it was likely you might be found guilty, not that you accepted that you were actually guilty. It's different from. The situation where a pardon is offered to someone after they have been found guilty, when a condition of it being offered is tgat guilt is accepted.

I don't suppose it would work to claim that the Senate trial, if successful, was confirming the view of the House that Trump was guilty, and that the verdict should therefore apply from the moment of the impeachment, and that any pardons from that point on would not be valid. Since there has never yet been any impeachments that were confirmed by the Senate, there are no precedents to guide the court. It would be worth trying this anyway.   

I don't think there is any reason to think the supreme court justices slipped in by Trump would feel any obligation to help him. As originists they'd be likely to be trying to channel what the Founding Fathers intended. And it seems pretty obvious the FFs would have seen Trump as a contemptible little man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 05:56 PM

McGrath: "Since there has never yet been any impeachments that were confirmed by the Senate, there are no precedents to guide the court."

There have been multiple cases of impeachments that were adjudged guilty, just not presidents. Since there had been only been two previous presidential impeachments -out of 44 presidents- that hardly establishes a set rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:10 PM

Why can't all these mighty clever and powerful legislators just respond to abnormal current events,
to fast track making new rules setting a precedent
on how to punish an evil wannabe mad dictator president...???

I thought the USA prided itself on being a 'can do' kinda culture...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:41 PM

Supream Court Justices are more like sitting ducks compared to Congress people. You can be sure they empathize with Congress and don't want to toy with Donald ever again. The profle of a Justice's courage should not be predicted.

We are on a fast track 'can do' pace.
Legally speaking "intent and state of mind" will be the prominent issues.

ps I do have a crystal ball and a 209 isotope iron nickel meteor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM

Nixon woulda bin CONvicted bud he quit B-4 the Sinet voted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:06 PM

"Supreme Court Justices are more like sitting ducks compared to Congress people"

How so? They've tenure for life. There is nothing Trump could do for them, now or at any future time, short of taking out a contract on them.

They may have needed to suck up to him before they got the gig. But that's past and done. He can't touch them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:42 PM

Even if the Senare failed to convict,, Trump would still be liable to prosecution for his actions on January 6th. And if found guilty the 14th amendment would still be likely to kick in and bar him from running for President in 2024. And it is to be hoped, bang him up for a long time.

Mind you that would be likely to mean Donald Junior, if pardoned by Daddy, running in his place - no doubt waving his copy of Trump's version of Mein Kampf, ghosted for him while he hangs out in a pretty luxurious cell. And Donald Junior if elected might be even worse. For all his faults the President has one redeeming feature - at base however malevolent and evil he may be, he is very stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 07:59 PM

Considering the hundreds of self-congratulatory tweets he's put up, it's a fair bet that Mike Pence is jostling for position for 2024...

Makes me feel glad that I'm getting old. Pass the cooking sherry and hold the glass.

If the Senate convicts him, that would be a good kicking-off point for charging him with criminal offences. If it doesn't, which still seems the likely outcome, I think you'd be in a big mess if you tried putting him in the dock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jan 21 - 08:02 PM

.. and old billionaires should be more likely to drop dead sooner from unhealthy lifestyles..

Hopefully Jnr has an urge for trendy dangerous high adrenaline fast sports activities...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:50 AM

McGrath: "at base however malevolent and evil he may be, he is very stupid."

Great line!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:03 AM

Hopefully Jnr has an urge for trendy dangerous high adrenaline fast acting drugs. That might solve the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:28 AM

Well I'm not big on wishing people dead, etc. First, I feel that such sentiments, if expressed aloud, may diminish us almost to their level, and, in any case, the kind of people we're talking about are a bit like the Lernaean Hydra. Cut them down and two more just as bad spring up in their place. We've already mentioned Pence and Junior...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:29 AM

Here's what Yale law professor,William Eskridge Jr. thinks about a self-pardon and trump's ongoing legal jeopardy.
WaPo
Fortunately trump still has a crack lawyer in Rudy, who's been seen around the White House carrying a sign that says "Will Work for Pardon".


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:49 AM

Sitting ducks implies less security than Congress which I believe is about to change. At least I hope so.

Sedition requires intent, planning and coordination.
It sounds open and shut to me.
The air/era of trump impunity is over.
Those who believe the Senate will never convict probably think being chicken shit is innate and that Courage is more rare.
They have a point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 06:59 AM

It's a question of looking at the current politics and predicting, not believing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:10 AM

Even if there is no conviction in the Senate trump has plenty of legal woes ahead. After Jan. 20 he'll no longer have a lapdog AG and he'll be dealing with a Justice Dept., which is independent of the legislative branch ,that he won't be able to use as a personal defense team, quite the opposite in fact, to say nothing of state and municipal prosecutors that want to have a go at him. Pass the popcorn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM

And while you're munching the popcorn, better look over your shoulder. A trial is sure to galvanise an awful lot of those 70-odd million supporters of his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 07:24 AM

I don't really give a shit about that, when you back down from terrorists where does it stop. I'm more focused on the 80 plus million who voted for Biden and the fact that under trump the GOP lost the midterms, the White House and control of the Senate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:17 AM

If next week goes peacefully, I think we could have a bit more confidence that things will settle.

Be careful what you charge him with!


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM

Legislators and prosecutors need to do their constitutional duty regardless of where it leads, we've had enough lawlessness these past 4 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:35 AM

The worst scenario is a NYT headline of TRUMP ACQUITED TWICE
A rushed impeachmnt has its risks compared to waiting to see more evidence of collusion with sedition and mob attacks.

Lyndsy Graham says be afraid our mob will get you if you impeach (paraphrase)
But trump is a one trick pony and does not have time to assemble more death marches. If the fascists were going to openly shoot they would have alraedy. That does not preclude cowardly snipers.

Same with the Qanon shaman wearing horns did not stab anyone with his spear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

Agreed, Donuel, this can't be a quickie trial. There were reports from White House workers that trump, instead of calling for aid in quelling the riot, was tromping around the place wondering why everyone wasn't more excited about the storming of the Capitol. These people need to be deposed, they can't just rely on trump's pre-riot speech. Fortunately McConnell won't be setting the agenda this time around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:02 AM

" I think you'd be in a big mess if you tried putting him in the dock."

It's all a big mess whatever happens. But the fact that the Senate might fail to support the impeachment need not in any way interfere with a court trial. I can't see how it could be seen as double jeopardy. The impeachment isn't a criminal prosecution. And the difference from the last impeachment is that this time it is pretty evident there will be a majority vote against him, just not enough to reach the two-thirds level.

Getting a jury together might be a bit tricky. I doubt if there are many people in Amerca who haven't pretty firm settled opinions about these issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM

The link Donuel shared makes it fairly clear that the double jeopardy defence would not apply in law, at least in the opinion of Cornell Law School. Whether that would mean Trump's lawyers and any media he still has on side would not claim it "in the court of public opinion" is quite another matter. I could easily see it being claimed as another QAnon/"biggest witch hunt in history"/Elitist plot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:18 AM

"I could easily see it being claimed as another QAnon/"biggest witch hunt in history"/Elitist plot."
Of course it will be but we've got to stop cowering before this would-be dictator if we're ever going to be rid of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM

.. quick googling suggested the ultimate sentence for sedition in the USA
is death...???

trump has shown himself to be a very enthusiastic supporter for the death penalty..

.. just saying..


Many, many, Americans have been executed for far lesser crimes
than the accumulation trump is guilty of...

.. and if his most fanatical acolytes pledge to sacrifice their lives for him as wannabe civil war martyrs..

That's their choice...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:04 AM

If the Senate trial fails to convict, he couldn't claim double jeopardy as that trial is not related to due process in the criminal justice system, but it would be grist to the mill of Trump and his supporters in the event of a criminal trial. I agree with gillymor about having the courage to go for him fully, but there will be consequences: it keeps him prominently in the public eye for a protracted period - think of the headlines week after week - and it would very likely whip up whatever supporters he would still have by then. I suspect it would still be tens of millions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

Ideally, trump and his close allies choose a glorious Alamo style last stand on one of his estates..
Get it over quick, done and dusted..
Start slowly rebuilding the US...

Some worshippers would write the history of his heroic martyrdom.
Most of the world would write him off as a pathetic failed tyrant..

.. adding, trump to the list of saddam, gadafi, bin laden, etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM

PFR,
I know you like to use sarcasm to make your point, but some of your last few posts, on how to get rid of Trump and his close supporters, seem decidedly unpleasant. I am sure you can find some valid points to make without hoping for people's deaths.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM

Doug - Not a time for squeamish moral superiority bollocks..

I am a pacifist, but not an absolutist pacifist.

As a general rule I would prefer not to wish death on anybody.

I am anti death penalty,
but accept there are valid extreme exceptions when it may be a last resort viable pragmatic solution...

trump may be one of them..

The threat of time on death row might appeal to his instinct for cutting a deal for clemency
on condition he fucks off into quiet exile...???


Here's a fun game..

Let's guess trump's response to being told by a higher authority
that he could make things right again
by either sacrificing his own, or his son's life...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM

Comedic relief can cause some grief
but is worth the needed release

Pense was seconds away from a crossfire and lynching event.
It would have changed the nature of the gallows humor if he had been shot or hung.


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