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BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries

The Sandman 02 Aug 20 - 05:19 AM
JHW 02 Aug 20 - 05:44 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 02 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM
Doug Chadwick 02 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM
Rapparee 02 Aug 20 - 09:12 PM
leeneia 04 Aug 20 - 06:15 PM
Sandra in Sydney 04 Aug 20 - 08:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Aug 20 - 08:44 PM
Sandra in Sydney 05 Aug 20 - 08:56 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Aug 20 - 08:47 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Aug 20 - 08:48 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 08:52 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Aug 20 - 09:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 02:16 PM
leeneia 06 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM
Mr Red 06 Aug 20 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 05:29 PM
Pappy Fiddle 06 Aug 20 - 06:09 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Aug 20 - 06:18 PM
Jeri 06 Aug 20 - 07:24 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 08:43 PM
Jeri 06 Aug 20 - 09:19 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 20 - 04:40 AM
Jim McLean 07 Aug 20 - 06:56 AM
Rain Dog 07 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM
Donuel 07 Aug 20 - 08:04 AM
Jeri 07 Aug 20 - 09:33 AM
Stilly River Sage 07 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM
Noreen 07 Aug 20 - 01:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Aug 20 - 01:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Aug 20 - 01:59 PM
Doug Chadwick 07 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 20 - 05:26 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Aug 20 - 06:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Aug 20 - 08:55 PM
Jeri 07 Aug 20 - 09:10 PM
Ebbie 07 Aug 20 - 09:52 PM
Ebbie 07 Aug 20 - 09:55 PM
Jeri 07 Aug 20 - 10:20 PM
JennieG 08 Aug 20 - 02:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Aug 20 - 03:33 AM
BobL 08 Aug 20 - 04:47 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 20 - 06:12 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 20 - 06:41 AM
Doug Chadwick 08 Aug 20 - 07:02 AM
Jeri 08 Aug 20 - 09:49 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Aug 20 - 10:21 AM
Donuel 08 Aug 20 - 11:13 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 20 - 11:33 AM
Donuel 08 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 20 - 01:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 20 - 03:43 PM
leeneia 08 Aug 20 - 06:13 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 20 - 06:18 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Aug 20 - 06:23 PM
Rapparee 08 Aug 20 - 09:40 PM
The Sandman 09 Aug 20 - 12:41 AM
Senoufou 09 Aug 20 - 02:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Aug 20 - 03:00 AM
Sandra in Sydney 09 Aug 20 - 08:21 AM
Senoufou 09 Aug 20 - 08:30 AM
Donuel 09 Aug 20 - 08:39 AM
Rapparee 09 Aug 20 - 01:39 PM
Senoufou 09 Aug 20 - 02:23 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM
Jos 09 Aug 20 - 03:17 PM
Senoufou 09 Aug 20 - 04:30 PM
fat B****rd 09 Aug 20 - 05:28 PM
Senoufou 09 Aug 20 - 05:51 PM
The Sandman 10 Aug 20 - 12:41 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Aug 20 - 03:03 PM
The Sandman 10 Aug 20 - 03:45 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 20 - 07:05 PM
Mr Red 10 Aug 20 - 07:38 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 20 - 07:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Aug 20 - 01:32 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Aug 20 - 04:48 AM
leeneia 11 Aug 20 - 02:00 PM

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Subject: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Aug 20 - 05:19 AM

Some of my acquaintances friends,seem to be getting irate about wearing masks, none of these friends would i be able to rely on in a serious revolution, they pontificate on facebook about their civil liberties, in a self important manner but are not what i call sound men women
i wonder if they got covid 19 would they still bang on with this drivel,
it is true that different masks may not be totally effective, and it is true that i have noticed there is some irony in people standing outside wearing masks and havin a puff at cigarettes.
it is also true that testing would be a more effective way of control, but is it such a big deal to put a mask on?, are there not more important civil liberty issues than this, it reminds me of don quixote tilting at wind mills. what do other people think/


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: JHW
Date: 02 Aug 20 - 05:44 AM

I was scared to go back in cinemas, now open again, which I used commonly preV. Dodgy being in a room full of people one of whom might just have the V. Now I'll have to wear a mask, maybe for an hour or two is the clincher to stay at home. Might be keener if you could buy one that would ensure your safety.
Lots of conflicting V 'information'. eg Someone in the States said V cure is sussed. No-one need die. But they do.
Rarely in the armchair though, out walking when its anything like fine. On the laptop mainly to check the weather.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 02 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM

I think the idea of a mask is much more to protect others rather than yourself, so you are reliant on the actions of others.
We are in Rossendale where the infection rate is going down but we are lumped in with the surrounding areas where the infection rate is mainly going up so that the whole region is affected as far as regulations are concerned.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM

I don't get irate about having to wear a mask and if I have to wear one for essential shopping, such as buying food, I am not going to argue or cause a fuss. If, however, I want to do something for pleasure and the choice is between wearing a mask or not doing it at all, I may well choose to give it a miss. Sitting in a cinema or theatre, for example, masked up for a couple of hours is not my idea of fun. I will find something else to do where I don't have to wear a mask.

I don't have any fixed ideas on the subject. It depends on how much I want to do something and how long I would have to wear the mask but there will certainly be some things that I would have done that I won't be doing until the mask requirement is removed.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Aug 20 - 09:12 PM

Having seen some of these "revolutionaries", I think they're quite likely to assault a six-pack than an entrenchment. I strongly doubt that many of them have actually seen any soldiering, much less been shot at.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 06:15 PM

I call behavior and rhetoric like this "pointless defiance." I think it has a lot to do with using substances; I have friends in medical fields who tell me that substance abuse take years off one's mental age, and I think pointless defiance is one form of this.

Examples of pointless defiance are not wearing a mask, not evacuating in an emergency, not wearing a helmet, not putting one's children in a car seat. And then, substance abuse or not, some people just have the attitude that "Nobody tells me what to do." Such people don't care whether they are being ordered about arbitrarily or being told something that might save their lives.

When challenged, they don't talk about the dangers they face, they start talking about their "rights," including rights nobody ever heard of before, much less agreed to protect.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:23 PM

I've just read a book about the Darwin Awards where people who think laws don't apply to them (e.g. law of gravity!)

Cartoonists are having a lovely time with that idea, but the URLs are far too long for the blickyfier This one leads to "The battle cry of the viral anti-mask vigilante - ME!"

One of our states has just gone into stage 4 lockdown & some citizens are crossing the border telling lies ("no, I haven't been in a hotspot") going into hiding, partying, visiting people & infecting a lot of people. police set to charge two women over 'deceitful' border crossing

this meme puts it well - I don't like the fact that my chances of survival seem to be linked to the common sense of others.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 08:44 PM

I saw a good cartoon the other day. 2 naked men from the waist down, one peeing on the other. Caption "No pants, you get wet legs". Next frame had one of the men in pants while the other peed on him. Caption "Wear pants for some protection". Next frame both were wearing pants and one had a wet stain down the front. Caption "Everyone wear pants for even better protection". Final caption, "Now do you understand the point of masks?"

I liked it anyway :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 08:56 PM

I've been collecting cartoons since the 70s & was trying to stop (who me, addicted?) but covid has brought out the best in cartoonists commenting on the worse behviour of some folks.

Clever cartoon, Dave, thanks for sharing it, & also thanks to the mudelf for making a blicky of my cartoon

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:16 AM

Well I'm no mask revolutionary. We have to wear masks in shops now and I comply meekly. But my opinion is that there is little evidence that masks do any good, and I see so much mask abuse (mask not covering the nose, mask on chin hoisted up at shop entrance, nose-itch relieved by scratching through the mask, mucho frontal mask-touching, mask used as a means of ditching social distancing, widespread mask-litter). And I have to wonder how many of those "disposable" masks, at a quid each, are worn five, ten or fifteen times before they get smelly enough to oblige their users to ditch them. I think there's a possibility that masks could often be doing more harm than good. And do note the caveats there, doubtfulness about one's opinion that I rarely see expressed by mask-zealots...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:47 AM

I’ve worn a mask in the few enclosed spaces I’ve frequented (Tesco, Mozza’s, the Post Office, pretty much sums it up) since the early part of March, and I will continue to do so until I’m satisfied there’s no reason to - which I don’t envisage being the situation until post-2020, if then.

I wear it not so much because I believe it affords me protection but because it might, at the very minimum I’m at no more risk wearing it than not, and because there’s a chance that, by wearing it, I’m protecting others.

I wear disposable masks once only, then I cut the ear-loops and put them in our own bin. If I wear a washable mask (we have half a dozen each), I wear it once only, and it’s then washed at 60C.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:48 AM

Here it is again without the ******* underIning...

I’ve worn a mask in the few enclosed spaces I’ve frequented (Tesco, Mozza’s, the Post Office, pretty much sums it up) since the early part of March, and I will continue to do so until I’m satisfied there’s no reason to - which I don’t envisage being the situation until post-2020, if then.

I wear it not so much because I believe it affords me protection but because it might, at the very minimum I’m at no more risk wearing it than not, and because there’s a chance that, by wearing it, I’m protecting others.

I wear disposable masks once only, then I cut the ear-loops and put them in our own bin. If I wear a washable mask (we have half a dozen each), I wear it once only, and it’s then washed at 60C.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:52 AM

But how representative are you of the masses?


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 09:46 AM

I’ve never been representative of the masses, Steve - I’m well used to being out of step. ;-)

I’m in complete agreement about mask-abuse, BTW. Does my bloody head in!


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 02:16 PM

I want to stay healthy and alive for as long as possible;
without my own mistakes, or the mass stupidity of cretins
causing my premature demise...

If I have to wear masks carefully and sensibly, then better safe than sorry...

.. and rubber johnnies are also still a good idea,
judging by the increase in STDs amongst care-free reckless retired folks...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM

Suppose person is coming down with a cold or Covid.

Suppose the person sneezes or coughs.

If the person has a mask on, the mask will slow down expelled droplets and even absorb some of them. The droplets will not go as far and will not contaminate as many surfaces.

Even a person who has not coughed or sneezed observes that the mask gets wet from normal speech. Therefore, the mask is stopping droplets.

How can you argue with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:23 PM

Bear with me:

It was said, in the UK, in WW2 that a lot of the iron railings (etc) that were removed did not go to making weapons, or even got used. But was a rouse to get people into the spirit, and feel they were doing something. A physical reminder of how serious the problem was.

Now the rest of the analogy. COVID masks. They certainly are a physical reminder.

And those wot refuse are slightly disadvantaging themselves. Mask wearing offers some positives in controlling the spreading of viruses, they have done the stats. But a greater advantage in positive propaganda.

Let's face it (pun intended) lock-down/shelter-in-place is far less visible. And for some of us it is a space to write COVID puns.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 05:29 PM

I can argue with that because of all the mask-abuse I see going on. Fine, you cough or sneeze or nose-drip into your mask. Then you hoik it down with your fingers when you come out of the shop. Then you hoik it back up with those same snotty fingers for your next shop. Those fingers go all over the trolley or basket handle. Then you use the same mask next day and the day after, because why would you pay another quid for a new mask when your used one looks, well, pretty good, and no-one will notice? Then you drop it on the pavement (ok, sidewalk). All this is maybe not what you do, but it's what a lot of people undeniably do.

You could well be better off with no polluted masks around. Can you argue with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Pappy Fiddle
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 06:09 PM

In the early days of the pandemic they were citing epidemiologists who said the something or other number was about 2.4 ie. each person had infected on average 2.4 other people and that's why the virus spread so fast. If this number is less than 1.0 the virus dies out.

So let's say, just for discussion, if I wear a mask it only reduces this number by 30%, so now I'm only infecting 1.7 others. Then if you also wear a mask it protects you, maybe not so much, but let's say it reduces the number by 25% so now it's down to 1.3 or so. Then if we maintain 2 meters between us and that attenuates the droplets by 30% it brings the number down to 0.88 which means the disease should eventually die out. I don't know the real fractions but this might be representative.

A mask is not 100% effective, but worth doing. The whole thing is probablistic, whether or not you get sick; except that the human body can reject a certain number of the virums or whatever the singular form of the word is. If not so, anyone who encountered one virum would always die. In reality most people only have minor symptoms or if they get sick most do recover. We wear masks basically for the minority that would die.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 06:18 PM

Yes. You're not supposed to be touching your mask or your face, and if you wear a cloth one and and have a couple of spare handy, then if you sneeze you can tuck away the moist one and replace it with fresh. And handwash them all when you get home, no littering with disposable masks.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 07:24 PM

From the CDC:
Coronaviruses on surfaces and objects naturally die within hours to days. Warmer temperatures and exposure to sunlight will reduce the time the virus survives on surfaces and objects. Normal routine cleaning with soap and water removes germs and dirt from surfaces.Apr 28, 2020


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:43 PM

Yeah, but Pappy, Stilly and Jeri, it's about what real people in the real word actually do, not what we virtuous types aspire to do. And Pappy, where's the evidence for your numbers? Anyway, I wear my mask unflinchingly. When obliged to do so...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 09:19 PM

More than anybody really wants to know about the SIR (Standardized Infection Ration). AKA "the numbers".


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 04:40 AM

It was the percentages in the middle paragraph I meant by "the numbers."


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 06:56 AM

"Coughs and sneezes spread diseases " need one say more?


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM

Well my social life has improved since wearing a mask.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:04 AM

Sturgis North Dakota hosts an annual biker 'convention' with crowds as high as 250,000. This year may be lower but will probably be mask free.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 09:33 AM

"I don't know the real fractions but this might be representative."
My interpretation of that was that he was speculating.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 11:26 AM

"Natural experiment" in Kansas shows masks work.

An interesting story I saw on Rachel Maddow last night on MSNBC. The state of Kansas has a GOP Senate that sued the governor for requiring face masks. Some counties chose to impose mask rules, the rest didn't. The results are striking. CLose-up of the chart in this story.


#WearTheFuckingMask


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 01:48 PM

Stilly, that is a very interesting link, thanks. Should be circulated widely! (The close-up link doesn't work for me though)


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 01:58 PM

Couldn't self-obsessed anti mask-activists just compromise,
and wear masks with photos of their own mouth, nose, and chin printed on them...???


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 01:59 PM

The link I put up was also on Facebook and I heard from a UK friend who couldn't see it. The Charlotte Observer should be viewable. The previous post's link for a closeup of the chart is to an article, you need to navigate to that part of the article and clicking on it enlarges the view.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM

#WearTheFuckingMask

I don't want to #WearTheFuckingMask. I choose to stay at home instead and #StopFuckingShoutingAtMe.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 05:26 PM

Nice one, Doug. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 06:22 PM

You may think that the results are striking, Maggie, but even yer man admits that his study wasn't exactly scientific. Interesting, definitely, but, in terms of science, no more than a hypothesis that masks may be effective. The null hypothesis, which needs to be debunked, but which he hasn't managed to do, is that masks are ineffective. His evidence is vulnerable to lots of confounding factors. Philosophically, I'm wary about leaving it like that, as similar but fake arguments have been used to deny anthropogenic climate change. The difference is that, on that score, climate change science is far more settled. Sorry if I come across as Mr Spock.

My view about masks is that I'm a bit puzzled as to why our exalted leader has decided, after months of no mask-wearing culture, that masks are useful in shops. He didn't make that edict a couple of months ago when the death rate was about ten times what it is now. The fact is that the death rate, bad though it still is, plummeted before the mask edict kicked in. My feeling is that the mask edict has been used to replace the social distancing edict, which nearly everyone will tell you is now widely ignored. Masks make us wary, even though they probably don't do much good (and are actually quite likely harmful) in terms of protecting us from disease. Grand if there is no mask abuse. But, as any casual observer can tell you, mask abuse is rife. Masks are the government's way of telling us not to forget that there's a pandemic on. Maybe that's a good thing, but I'm not sure. However, I'm not a anti-mask zealot and I have a goodly stash of the things that I take with me wherever I go.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 08:55 PM

He has more science and credibility than the anecdotes offered here. You can question the motives, but the results are showing up in many places, not just in Kansas. What puzzles me is the reluctance of people to do something that is simple and safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 09:10 PM

I figure they don't wanna because it messes up their makeup. Or maybe it's just hot and icky.
No, I can't figure it out either.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 09:52 PM

Maggie said at 11:26 that link is pretty convincing. I figure that if only 30% of people are wearing masks- and even if they push or pull at it from time to time- it is still *much* better than if only 12% wore them religiously. To me, it appears that we could starve the beast if 80%, say, wore the damn thing. So, yes. I wear them.

The "can't breathe" claim is stupid. The other day a physician ran 10 miles in his mask and reported no drop in oxygen consumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 09:55 PM

Incidentally, yesterday I lost my one remaining sister to the virus. She didn't deserve to die that way.And she was luckier, at that, than many are; she was not on a ventilator.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Aug 20 - 10:20 PM

I'm sorry you lost your sister, Ebbie.

I understand the difficulty breathing, because I get it, too. I also can't sleep if even a sheet is over my face. But I'm getting used to the mask. Fundamentally, it isn't a physical problem, it's a psychological one.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: JennieG
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 02:19 AM

So sorry about your sister, Ebbie.

Our town (pop. about 50,000 or so) hasn't had a case of plague since April. Over the past couple of weeks we have noticed more people masking up, probably helped by the fact that the two major supermarket chains are 'encouraging' staff and shoppers to wear them. When we last shopped on Monday only a few staff members were masked; not many customers were, but those customers were elderly.

We have bought a few masks. I am not using up any of my (somewhat extensive) fabric stash making them.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 03:33 AM

I understand why masks may be considered a bad thing by some. I believe that, as in most things in life, we need to weigh up the pros and cons.

That the virus is transmitted by airborne particles is a fact. That the virus is also transmitted by those particles on surfaces is another fact. Masks reduce the spread of airborne particles is the third fact. Whether the increase in particles spread by touch because of using masks, as described by Steve, is a bigger risk than the reduction in airborne transmission, I don't know.

I am happy to wear one as legislated. I know there are idiots who misuse them. You can't cure stupidity unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: BobL
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 04:47 AM

I put masks in the same league as car seat belts or safety glasses - most of the time they don't make a lot of difference, but when they do, it's a significant difference.

In this respect they're more like safety glasses or other PPE: if seat belts keep you from going through the windscreen you'll know all about it, but if safety glasses save you a trip to A&E with something in your eye, it won't necessarily be obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM

Masks do one thing only, which is to prevent droplets from coughs, sneezes or speech from being projected forward. Viruses pass with ease from the inside to the outside surface of the mask. If you are infected, that is likely to have happened within minutes of your donning the mask. Hands up all those who have never touched the front of their mask. Gosh, you even have to do that to bend the metal nose clip. Everyone you see who has pulled their mask down then pushed it up again has touched the front of the mask. Misuse of masks may not negate the trapping of droplets, but it significantly increases the chances of transmission to surfaces by touch.

I'm not questioning the man's motives, Maggie, simply pointing out that even he admits that his findings are not based on science. There hasn't been enough time to establish the effectiveness or otherwise of masks purely by science as opposed to by anecdote or by informed speculation. However, wearing a mask as a precaution, even if you doubt their efficacy, is arguably more responsible than being an anti-mask rebel. I'm not reluctant to wear my mask, Jeri. But I'm wearing it when I have to, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 06:12 AM

Steve - the level of guaranteed protection you are looking for,
would probably be a sturdy durable plastic bag over the head,
secured with heavy duty elastic bands around the neck
to ensure it's sealed air tight...???

There are plenty of folks I'd recommend try it...



Brought to you by pfr, your friendly misanthropic humanist...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 06:41 AM

I ain't looking for guaranteed protection! Woke up this morning with a thick pillow over my face. Mrs Steve explained that she was testing the efficacy of different thicknesses of mask material. I admired her scientific approach, and mused that she'd very likely found an excellent means of permanently preventing a person from passing on the virus...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 07:02 AM

I saw a good one the other say. As it happens, wearing a mask would have prevented the action taking place, in this case, but it illustrates Steve's point about reflex actions like touching the mask then rubbing your eye and the like.

A woman had just filled up her car with fuel using the pay-at-pump and decided to use the hand sanitizer before getting back in to the car. This was proving a little difficult as she was still holding her purse and credit card. Her solution was to hold the purse between her knees and clamp the credit card between her teeth while she dutifully rubbed the sanitizer into her hands.

Used properly, mask, hand cleansing and social distancing will help to reduce the spread of infection. Unfortunately, so many of our actions are automatic that sometimes our good intentions can make the situation worse.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 09:49 AM

I don't care about much as long as people wear masks appropriately, in appropriate situation.

I'm living in the most infested land on the planet, and I'm in a discussion group with some folks who are all "give me freedom (from mask wearing), or give YOU death", and one guy who thinks a vaccine is, "at best, a placebo". That discussion happened until the mods said it was a taboo subject.
As with other things, it's a matter of their personal beliefs being more trustworthy to them than science, and that's a very sad state of affairs.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 10:21 AM

Here (in Wales) face coverings are mandatory when travelling on public transport, but only then.

Apparently this is based on WHO advice, as per the Welsh Government website: Here

At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community is not supported by high quality scientific evidence. Social distancing and hygiene measures remain the most effective measures for reducing transmission of COVID-19.

The WHO is recommending, though, that as part of the wider range of measures to prevent transmission, three-layer face coverings should be encouraged in situations where social distancing and hygiene measures are difficult to maintain.

There is evidence to suggest that the wearing of face coverings gives people a false sense of security which makes them less careful about social distancing and handwashing. We know that these measures are the most effective way to reduce transmission of the virus, and don’t want to do anything that might lead to a reduction of those measures being observed.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 11:13 AM

~ ~
o o
( . )

reelly hodta Hearyu

Trying to save a herd of looney Lemmings above the cliff is a waste of time. Just don't stand underneath.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 11:33 AM

So these "single-use masks" that typically cost a quid each. I wonder what proportion of people, especially reluctant or resentful mask-wearers:

use them just once
wash their hands before putting them on
never touch the mask material, only the ear loops
remove them by the ear loops only
assiduously follow the disposal rules
wash their hands after taking the mask off
always carry a spare mask
change the mask when it gets moist (which takes about thirty seconds in a shop on a hot day)?

You tell me which ones of those you break and I'll tell you which ones I break...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM

I wonder what proportion of people, especially reluctant or resentful ass-wipers: also resent masks. Single use wipes or masks are optional to those people so whats the big deal? Infection, death and disease?

Acceptable risk is different for everyone be they billionaire yacht club members, meer country club members, little kids forced to school or senior citizens with little time left.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 01:03 PM

Steve - we knew were doomed
from the moment boris's govt lifted travel restrictions to the South West,
and reopened pubs..

.. then implored us to trust the 'common sense' of the British people...

Everyone for themselves now...

When I must go out of my house,
I will wear disposable masks in a responsible disciplined methodical manner,
maintaining self-awareness to control my own actions, and following best practice safety procedures..

I have to accept, I can't even trust my wife to follow my higher standards,
Not now when she goes out for coffees with friends,
nor particularly when her infant school reopens after the summer break..

It's wise to regard all other people as a threat...

Aren't you glad UK law does not allow me to own guns and ammunition...???

..not even a mini crossbow, when I go to the post office...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 03:43 PM

.. chainsaw...???


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 06:13 PM

The state of Kansas is divided, with some counties mandating masks and some not. Today the head of the Kansas Dept of Health said that rates are dropping in the mask-wearing counties and staying level in the unmasked.

This is the case even though the masked counties are more urban and more crowded. These statistics are good evidence for the value of masks.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 06:18 PM

I know. Bude is heaving, and there have been "incidents" apropos of masks even in Bude Sainsbury's... Somewhat reminiscent of Basil Fawlty and his allegation of bloodshed in the Nell Gwynne tea rooms... There are rumours of troupes of holidaymakers coming down with the virus and clogging up Treliske hospital in Truro...But we need their money down yer...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 06:23 PM

Whilst I kinda hope you're right, I think there's a good chance that lots of confounding factors could nobble your numbers, leeneia. Wearing a mask may well be sensible, but backing up that argument with science that isn't science puts you, potentially, on a hiding to nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Aug 20 - 09:40 PM

Two weeks from now....


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 12:41 AM

I am,m flabber gasted by a comment i saw on face book this comment is silly. QUOTE
How refreshing to hear a Tory talk complete sense!   
Sarah Vine's statement expresses a view with which I totally concur, but seems to be little represented in the mainstream media.
“We all have to die sooner or later. If I get Covid and cop it, so be it. My time has come. I’ll have had a good life, better than most in this world at any rate. I certainly don’t expect the entire nation to bankrupt itself to save my sorry ass.”


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 02:46 AM

There are a few things to say about Sarah Vine's comment:-
One may not just 'cop it' if one contracts Covid19. One could suffer the most appalling symptoms, die gasping for every breath, be on a ventilator (not nice!) or finish up like my poor sister.
She got Coronavirus four months ago. She now has pulmonary microangiopathy, which means her lungs have very few small blood vessels left, so any oxygen inhaled cannot be transported. She has been told (just last week) by a hospital specialist that this will probably cause her demise 'in rather a short time'. She's in total despair, at only 64 years of age. She was as fit as a flea before this happened.
Also, one has no right to wilfully put oneself at risk when it will put others at risk too. One can become a vector and transmit the virus to anyone else.
And, the NHS is still struggling, and people should avoid burdening them any further.
Having heard of the appalling sufferings of my sister, I will do everything possible to avoid this virus.
While Sarah Vine may be perfectly alright about dying, most people would not want to die, and not in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:00 AM

Not enough high profile covid deniers / anti mask activists are dying
as a direct result of their sociopathic stupidity..

..and if they are, where are the much needed news reports...???


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:21 AM

Eliza - we just hear/read numbers of deaths, but no detail like your sister's suffering. I have no words, love to you & your family

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:30 AM

Thank you so much Sandra, your kind words mean such a lot to me.
It's true what you say, people have no idea of the actual course of the virus. It doesn't seem to be much like the 'flu, but affects patients in many different ways, some minor and some horrific, which isn't often publicised in detail (perhaps to avoid panicking people).
When one knows a person who has contracted it, the reality is appalling.
Masks are one way of possibly reducing the risk, as is social distancing etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:39 AM

Its been a little while Senofou since posting, you war hardened veteran you. Mere isolation is taxing. For me resolve is tested and there is more strain and disssapointment as time goes on.

I actively discredit the conspiracy theories as our enemy be they foreign or domestic. The news that Hispanic children are 8 times more likely to require hospitaliztion and black kids are 5 times more likely than white kids to need hospitalization has me on more shakey ground as to the possible reality of a racial specfic weapon most valued by racists may actually exist in the form of Covid 19. Proof awaits.

The insanity of gas warfare turning against the users at the whimsey of the wind comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 01:39 PM

I'm very sorry to hear that, Sen. My heart goes out to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 02:23 PM

Thank you very much dear Rap! People on here are so kind.

My husband is in bits, and praying (Muslim) prayers for her recovery. He's always held her in great affection and regard.
She's a most generous and kind person, donating many thousands to my husband's family, plus supporting various charities in developing countries and being one of the pillars of the community in her small Scottish village.

We wear our masks when we go out to the supermarket/village shop (the only reason we venture forth from the house/garden!) Yes, it's a bit stifling, especially in this heatwave, but we're grown-ups and don't moan. We have a huge packet of the things, and throw each one away after use. Hand-washing is carefully done on coming home. I sanitise the handles of the wheelie bins after they've been emptied, and everyone in our village practises social-distancing.
Please everyone, stick to the rules if you can. You would NOT want Covid19, it's sheer hell!


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM

Such sad, sad news Sen - heartfelt sympathy and all good thoughts and wishes to you and yours, from out here in the Backwoods of Lincolnshire.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Jos
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:17 PM

Dear Eliza, although I am not a devout Christian, I am nevertheless praying for your sister. She sounds a lovely person. I hope she can stay with you/us as long as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 04:30 PM

Thank you Backwoodsman and Jos. Your kind words are so welcome.
The irony is that my sis worked for decades in the same hospital where she was taken to be put on a ventilator. Then she came home, where she lives alone (she's a widow). Then last week she had to go back to that hospital for the investigation into the damage to her lungs.
All the staff remember her of course, and it's a bit poignant.
So many years of service, and now she's been a patient and an out-patient, on 'the other side of the fence' so to speak!
I see that today in the heat, most of the beaches in the UK have been crammed with people, not masked and not distanced in any way.
I think we urgently need a vaccine don't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: fat B****rd
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 05:28 PM

Best regards and thoughts from Dunfermline, Eliza
Charlie x


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 05:51 PM

Thank you Charlie.
Sis lives between Dundee and Perth. She's lived in Scotland since she was 18. (Went to St Andrews University)


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 12:41 PM

I consider it to be respectful toother people to wear masks where and when it is mandatory, it is the difference between being selfish and foolhardy and being considerate of other people in the community. Iam sorry to hear about your sister Senoufou


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 03:03 PM

I consider it to be respectful to other people to wear masks where and when it is mandatory, it is the difference between being selfish and foolhardy and being considerate of other people in the community.
If you're only wearing them 'where and when it is mandatory" I would suggest that your thoughts are not for other people, but to avoid police action.
If you are considering others you should wear the mask where it is needed, whether mandatory or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 03:45 PM

If you're only wearing them 'where and when it is mandatory" I would suggest that your thoughts are not for other people, but to avoid police action.
If you are considering others you should wear the mask where it is needed, whether mandatory or not. quote nigel parsons
, i am wearing it where it is needed , but if i am in a car on my own i do not need it.
i make sure i social distance., correctly
wearing masks is not the only important thing . for example i was in a shop the other day with a mask, when somebody came very close to me to get hand sanatiser and brushed against me .,totally ridiculous and destroyed the point of wearing a mask.
i am very particular about social distancing and using hand sanatiser. i suggest that you are making assumptions about my motives and trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 07:05 PM

If you wear a mask only where it's mandatory to do so, you are far more likely to be using the mask properly. Go on a shopping trip and wear a mask all the time and you are likely to be wearing a highly-contaminated mask after quite a short time (especially if you're poorly...). I wear a mask in supermarkets and other shops. After a very few minutes there is condensation in my mask, an ideal environment for any viruses I happen to have. When I leave that store, if I'm planning to go into other shops I should be ditching that mask and putting on a new one (having washed my hands in between, of course...). Well, masks cost a quid each. What a motivation that is for re-using your "disposable" mask. All things considered, it isn't anti-mask revolutionaries that are the problem (they nearly all wear masks where they have to anyway). The problem is the moral high ground, claimed, falsely of course, by mask vigilantes and zealots. They're not being led by the science. They're being led by the nose. Best thing, wear your mask where the rules say that you should and do what you like otherwise. Just don't make a fuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 07:38 PM

it's about what real people in the real word actually do

Here we go again.

LIFE AIN'T BLOODY BINARY.

Masks are a percentage shot. We have laws about cars and speeds, which are flouted. But at least there are enough sensible people to make the percentages work for you. Car speeds or masks. And just like cars & laws, it is not about one methodology, it is about simple, doable, multiple, policeable procedures. And the percentages. They can get the R number below 1.0

FWIW UK deaths have stabalised from about 25 days ago and more recently are falling slowly. Though the accounting probably has changed to ignoring any deaths past 28 days since recovery, so there is less confidence in recent trends. And the better availability of masks will have played a part, given that deaths lag cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 20 - 07:48 PM

You haven't a clue as to what effect masks have, and neither do I. The R number is bullshit, as I've explained before, and it really is what real people in the real world actually do, whether you like it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 01:32 AM

Well.. I was out in the real world today..

The town centre post office..

..and my observation was most of my local population I encountered today,
either have a death wish,
or believe they are invincible...

A plausible conclusion, is the general level of intelligence and responsibility
is not very high...

But I know that anyway from growing up in this moronic provincial environment..
I swear there's more thick people here now than back in the 1970s...???

At least back then there was no internet to enable the spread of Dunning-Kruger effect...


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 04:48 AM

There's a song challenge in the music section for new verses to Bob Franke's "The great storm is over".

I thought I'd re-post one offering here:

The year's twenty-twenty, a virus gets loose
Our leaders soon show us they're no bloody use
Protecting our elders, is that such an ask?
Just sanitize often, and wear a good mask.


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Subject: RE: BS: masks and armchair revolutionaries
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 02:00 PM

I wear a mask when out and about. It has two effects: slows down the spread of droplets from me AND when I spot another person in a mask, I am reminded to keep at least 6 feet away.

That second thing is so easy to forget.

When I'm out of the store, I spread the mask out in the sunshine, and I'm sure any viruses don't survive that very long.


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