Sexual exploitation in folk

Subject: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 09:26 AM

I can think of three guys my age and one a bit older who this could have been about if they'd had Instagram and WhatsApp 30 years ago. She's presumably talking about a generation down from that, with more opportunities to abuse their position.

https://ejjustabout.wordpress.com/2020/07/27/why-i-lost-faith-in-folk-music/

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 09:33 AM

If you can read all that shite I take my hat off to you.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:18 AM

Could you explain what you mean by 'shite' in this context? Not true? Not important? Something else?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:23 AM

I suppose she means she has lost faith in the uk folk revival ,a different thing from losing faith in folk music.
Is this a true overall representation of the uk folk revival?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM

I think I can guess who she's writing about.

Other folks know, and aren't saying anything.

This isn't in the Jeffrey Epstein league but it can't go on.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Similar issues in Irish Traditional music: #Misefoste

https://journalofmusic.com/news/rte-investigation-highlights-sexual-abuse-irish-traditional-music?fbclid=IwAR1abUHjteWThZK1Q8yF9PRjgjMWCCnye7e-0iNcPNC6i1gPMdn-PpEUjmw#.XxriybQ4BL0.facebook

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:39 AM

I have experienced the occasional incompetent MC, and witnessed a few poor introductions by MCS.
I will be interested to see how this thread and this attack upon the integrity of the UK FOLK REVIVAL and folk music develops.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM

Jack who is she writing about, i have no idea?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:55 AM

Is the music actually part of the context, or should she have pulled back a bit and written about this sleazeball man who is famous in his field. It opens up into the #MeToo movement if you simply examine this in the context of all men in positions of power in their field of business.

This isn't really a music discussion.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 11:25 AM

The contact was made via a music camp, which had protocols in place that nominally addressed the issue, but didn't enforce them (and probably couldn't).

It's not a personal matter that could happen to anyone in the same way. It's to do with the institutional failure of the folk scene.

Whichever mod is doing the censoring: either put it back in the music section or have the guts to delete it entirely. I got the reference from Marit Fält on FB and the discussion can perfectly well continue in her thread. (All her FB friends are musicians and they will get the point).

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 12:31 PM

this is a scurrilous disgraceful thread, if the person has a complaint take it to the police,
Jack you should be ashamed of yourself,innuendo and smearing of the uk folk revival, pack it up or name the offenders and take the consequences, of slander or libel.. or bring charges

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:22 PM

Do you know who the woman is Jack? Have you evidence to prove the veracity of her words?
No I don't suppose you do, but you are willing to make assumptions based on unproven accusations, and draw your own conclusions as to whom she is referring.
Sorry Jack, but you should never have posted this.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:35 PM

oh, yes, indeed, you should have, Jack.
And I'm not the only one reading this who believes so.

...ahem!
Speak up, the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:39 PM

A thread that can result in he-said she-said and character assassination does not belong in the music section. The venue may have been musical, but the topic isn't.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 02:35 PM

In recent years minor 'hit record' success old folkie N*** M*****,
got sentenced for kiddie fiddling..
.. and not a word about it at mudcat...

I debated the value of starting a thread myself,
if no one else did..
but eventually my interest wained, and I forgot..

Are folkies as bad as the tory party for closing ranks and keeping quiet...?????

[N*** M*****- I've got no problem naming guilty names, but some here seem to have...]

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 02:38 PM

I have known some people who have had 30,000 sexual partners and some with 1.
sExploitation could enter the equation with any partners above the number 0.
Its not any of my business unless a criminal attack has ocurred.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:06 PM

Marit undoubtedly knows the names and she is somebody to be respected.

You don't need to know who the people are to know there is an issue to be dealt with and to discuss how best to deal with it.

Seems some people don't want to know.

I'm out of here until this thread reappears where I intentionally put it.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:14 PM

i have no problem about naming names after they have been prosecuted and found guilty.
JACK , ITS NOT ABOUT WANTING TO KNOW IT IS ABOUT [PROSECUTION ON EVIDENCE] AND THEN THE PERSONS NAME BEING MENTIONED IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:21 PM

Noel Murphy was found guilty.
so no problem mentioning his name.
A folk singer who sexually assaulted a girl while on tour four decades ago has been jailed for 18 months.

Noel Murphy, 74, attacked his victim, who was 11 or 12 at the time, while touring north Wales in the 1970s.

Mold Crown Court heard she "lost control of her life" after her ordeal and had even contemplated suicide.

Murphy, who admitted three counts of indecent assault, had a minor UK hit in 1987 with the novelty song Murphy and The Bricks.

As well as the prison term, Ireland-born Murphy will be on the sex offenders register for the next 10 years.
There happens to be a convicted sex offender who is a member of this forum. he has done his prison sentence and has the right to remain anonymous.

The musician, who was once part of the band Murf and Shaggis, toured UK folk clubs in the 1960s and 1970s but quit music in 2005 due to health reasons.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 05:25 PM

I am, frankly, appalled at some of the responses on this thread. I can speak with some experience, gathered over fifty years of being female and involved with folk music, and can assure those men who seem to think this is "scurrilous" or somehow invented that there have been sexual predators in the folk music world for as long as I've known it. This has never been talked about, and names have never been named (as indeed they are not on this thread). Women have just dealt with it and put up with it. If you continue to react with disbelief or anger at those who have been prey to the predators, it will continue and all the men involved will continue to enjoy the unjustifiable privilege that comes simply by being male. Surely we can do better than this in 2020? If you think this thread doesn't belong with the music threads, or if you think it shouldn't be here at all, shame on you and your toxic masculinity. Those of you who know me personally will know I don't usually talk in these terms. I have been supremely blessed by the good male friends I have made over the years, and I am married to a man who is the very antithesis to the men I will continue to call predators. But I can vividly remember some of the encounters I have had, and the heartbreak caused to friends of mine by some of the people concerned.
Sadly, I also know some people here (and on Facebook) dislike any suggestion that their worldview may be restricted and restrictive, and I have experienced before in this forum just how unpleasant their reactions can be - it's one reason I don't post here very much and normally avoid any thread where it's likely to happen. But this is important. I have experienced these sexual predators myself as musicians, club organisers and agents. I know they have been out there for years, and it seems they still are, only now it's a younger generation. If I'm not naming names it's because some of them are no longer with us, and some of them are no longer on the music scene, while some of them are people with whom I have resolved matters to my own satisfaction. But when are men going to own responsibility for their behaviour, and why does it take some brave young women to call it out?
A major difficulty is that the men responsible for this are personable, charming and easy to take at face value. If they weren't, they wouldn't succeed. And of course they are all over our modern society, as they have always been - the folk world isn't unusual or exceptional. What is different about the folk world is we like to think we are more liberal, more tolerant, more aware of social injustice, and so on, which is why it is all the more shocking to find people abusing their fame, or their status, or their position.

And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) and some of those not named will simply carry on as before. However, what you can do is listen - first, and most importantly, to the women who have experienced this at first hand, and secondly to those men who might at some point brag about their behaviour to you. Be aware. Be very aware, and see what you can do. The women are speaking up - think of what courage that takes, and listen to them.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 05:34 PM

You rock, Doctor Lister.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 06:58 PM

I may be a fan of folk music,
but I've never been very keen on the folk scene..

There seems to me,
too many smug supercilious conformist reactionaries,
who wouldn't be out of place in a provincial conservative club..

.. even if they dress in 'free spirited bohemian' folkie uniform,
and self-identify as progressive liberals..


I read this young woman's blog page, and it is far too plausible
to be so easily discounted as mere lurid youthful fan fiction...???

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 07:21 PM

If you think this thread doesn't belong with the music threads, or if you think it shouldn't be here at all, shame on you and your toxic masculinity

The thread was started by a male who has made it clear that he intentionally put it in the music section and has objected to it being moved. A female Mod has declared that it doesn't belong in the music section and, presumably, moved it below the line. Not everything can be blamed on "toxic masculinity".

Is the music actually part of the context, .....

In my opinion, the thread belong above the line because music is, most definitely, part of the of the context. It provides the setting where the abuser can operate. Musical accomplishment may start with raw talent but it is drawn out by those with more experience. This generally puts older musicians in a dominant position to those just starting out. Music tuition can often be on a one-to-one basis. Of course, the vast majority of musicians are not abusers but the few who are can cause untold damage.

Abuse takes place in all walks of life but, as people involved in folk music, it is incumbent on us to watch out for where it might be happening in the folk music world. Discussing this above the line may also act as a reminder to genuine, caring musicians not to put themselves into situations which could be misinterpreted.

DC

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 07:38 PM

I think that we should read the woman's account quietly and non-judgementally of her. Some of us of sound and lusty mental strength (yeah, right...) simply do not understand what some young women are going through as they are they are shamelessly exploited by men in positions of power who cash in cynically and ruthlessly on their vulnerabilities in this social-media world of peer pressures. We should never say gullible, we should never say naive, we should never say they were asking for it. There are times when I feel ashamed to be a bloke when I read things like this young woman's account of what happened to her. It isn't a transient thing that will pass by the end of next week. It could scar you for life.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 11:30 PM

There is a very good reason why this was moved to the BS section. This kind of thread attracts an incredible amount of spam and trolling. The only way to keep that out of it is to move it to the members only section.

And despite what people have said about sexual predators being in the folk scene, they are everywhere. I've met them in different fields of work unrelated to music. They're on campus, where I recently spent many years as staff. Please continue to discuss the topic here but understand that moderation becomes a lot more difficult with this particular topic if it isn't behind the membership firewall.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 12:08 AM

This was addressed in the previous post. But here I go: There are predators of all types everywhere. The issue is not the nature of the venue, but the protection the venue affords. In a world with a disparity of power (in other words, THIS world we live in), people will take advantage of other people. When a particular venue offers a lack of oversight, or a perversion of oversight, more advantage will be taken.
We have seen this in religion. We have seen this in sports. And we have seen this in ENTERTAINMENT. Politics is so obvious I'm only mentioning it here because if I don't mention it someone will mention that I didn't mention it.

So, is folk music simply part of ME TOO or is there a special reason for particularizing it here and now? Is there something about folk music that offers a special protection for this kind of behavior?

The main invitation to the misbehavior seems to be a common assumption that "It can't happen here."

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 02:32 AM

There were at least two sexual offenders on this forum,one of them still contributes both were convicted and had their punishment they have aright to remain anonymous., unless this forum involves them working with children,
One who used to contribute here, but who died recently, both Anne and i knew, as he ran a folk club in South East london and then nottingham,his daughter reported him to the police
   I would have thought the correct procedure was to report any kind of abuse to social wprkers and police., if the person is prosecuted and found guilty., then name them.
allegations or innuendo that is not backed, up is not in my opinion acceptable, that does not mean that i think sexual abuse is acceptable, or that or that this example is invented.
remember there is a a sytem of justice innocent until proven guilty, or do we try people on mudcat via a kangaroo court?.
Sexual abuse is not acceptable, but there are systems in place to deal with it, to protact other people that system should be used and prosecution should take place based on evidence.
That was what happened to Noel Murphy and DaveCooper and absolutely right too.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 03:56 AM

And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) and some of those not named will simply carry on as before.
quote ann lister
It is not a question of closing ranks, it is a question of prosecuting using the correct channels, EG social workers and police
so that people like Noel Murphy Dave Cooper and anyone else who is guilty gets CORRECTLY tried and if found guilty gets punished , that is the only way to make it clear this sort of behaviour is not acceptable. THE QUOTE your words.. Ann Lister, makes assumptions which i find insulting .

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:12 AM

There are two issues in that original article, and I'm only addressing the first.

Do people really introduce female folkies by their looks, and male folkies by their talent? If so, that is akin to white players being described as smart and black ones as athletic. That would be a sexism problem in folk music.

The other issue of exploitation happened *through* folk music but is an issue of exploitation, not of folk music itself, which was the vector, not the virus, if you will. And was horrible, but I'd like to address the introduction thing.

Do those of you who do open mikes, club performances, and folk festivals --Anything where you are introduced by an emcee-type presenter-- really have that happen? I have not noticed that myself but rarely go see live music.

Please note I am not trying to minimize the exploitation part. I was shocked by the sexism brought up in the beginning of that article, and thought the writer would go on about sexism specifically in folk music, rather than about sexual exploitation that could have happened in any other context where there are unsupervised predatory and vulnerable individuals. Yes, it's horrible, but it's not my question. Please don't hurt me.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:30 AM

Dick, you should be aware that the kind of behaviour which is being discussed on this thread is not necessarily anything which can be dealt with by any court. The events will be between two people, generally without witnesses, and may not be considered rape or any kind of obvious sexual abuse but which are, nonetheless, abusive and exploitative. Names have not been named, and there is no question of a "kangaroo court", or judgement by Mudcat. Because something is not necessarily subject to legal action or proof does not make it something which disappears or is negligeable in its effects on the person exploited. It takes a huge amount of courage for anyone to speak out about this stuff and you have only to look at a small amount of the literature about even serious cases of rape, child abuse, and other sexual abuse to know that only a tiny percentage of these cases ever reach the ears of the police, social workers, legal experts or anyone who is supposed to "judge" - mostly because it is deeply humiliating for the recipient of the abuse (I'm trying not to use the word "victim" here) to talk about it and be questioned about it. So that's why I wrote as I did. None of the young women who have been writing recently about their experiences are looking for prosecutions, but they are explaining why they do not feel safe in the folk world. Nor were they necessarily children in the eyes of the law when this all took place - this is not about Dave Cooper or Noel Murphy,although you seem determined to mention them. No one is saying either, by the way, that the folk world is the only place this happens - of course it isn't. But we are a community which prides itself on liberal, tolerant and forward-thinking attitudes, and these predators have been able to continue without challenge.
It's also worth noting that none of the personal accounts are naming names. I really can't understand why you feel insulted, Dick. By the way, I feel insulted that you can't even be bothered to spell my name correctly. If you are not participating in the behaviour or covering up for someone else, then clearly my remarks are not addressed to you personally. I do, though, have experience which you do not, and cannot, share, and I do know what I'm talking about - which I suspect you do not. Have you actually read the accounts of the women which started this thread?
I note that the EFDSS have reacted to these issues. Equity have had to make policy statements. I'm sure the MU also have a policy too - but of course the predators are unlikely to take note of this or feel it applies to them. This is about prominent musicians, organisers and agents using their status, position, charisma and personal charm to take advantage of women, some of whom may be aspiring professionals themselves and some of whom may be members of audiences or workshops. All the stories I have heard relate to male predators and female "targets", and a heterosexual relationship, although I am fully aware that other possibilities exist. If you, personally, have never come across anything that fits this description, consider yourself lucky (and probably male). Many of us women know the situation all too well, but we haven't talked about it much before and we should have done. Start listening to the women.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:59 AM

Amen to that.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM

I just now read this. I was thinking I'd be replying that the supposed rape by the knight of that shepherd's daugher may have really been something a lot more complicated, but it wasn't about music, so...
This is a thing thad doesn't have anything specifically to do with folk music. It happens everywhere, with every profession. So it happens with folk musicians.
It's not right, but to some extent, life tests people's survival skills, and it's impossible to protect people. What folks CAN do is try to warn people. Folks need to know how to recognize bad or inappropriate behavior. As Anne Lister said, it's not a matter for the law. It's a matter of teaching young people how to say "no" when someone asks for nude photos, and the fact is, you won't know when that request happens. Additionally, that young person probably wouldn't listen, anyway. To some extent, this is an opportunity for learning at the school of hard knocks. Hopefully, the person will figure it out before much, or any, damage is done.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM

It is fair and reasonable for us
to single out and focus on exploitation, abuse, hypocrisy, and denial
in the folk music community,
because mudcat is after all a folk forum...???

I'd insist that the issue is exacerbated by the habitual tendency of middle class folkies
to regard themselves as culturally and morally superior
to other genres of contemporary music fan identities
they snootily look down on...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:52 AM

Two very good posts, Anne - intelligent and insightful.
Like you, I’m at a loss to understand why anyone would feel ‘insulted’ by anything you have written.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:53 AM

Anne Lister. you said this quote
And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) i feel insulted that you have suggested that i might close ranks and deny it was possible.
I have never suggested that in my responses on this thread,
and as for being insulted because i spelled your name [a typo ann instead of anne]. is laughable.
your use of the word some , does not let you off the hook. I object to the possibilty in your wording that i might be included in some, is that clear. i do not condone or believe sexual exploitation is ok.
if you are a professional or semipro musician it is your work ok so this is what you are supposed to doIf you experience sexual harassment at work

    if the behaviour is serious or continues, you should make a written formal complaint.
    if the behaviour continues you might need mediation.
    if the person harassing you is your employer and they do not stop, get outside support.
    It is your right to be protected at work.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 12:23 PM

sexual exploitation of men by women. It does happen , in fact it happened to me.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:26 PM

Ok starting a new thread for my question.

Subject: Sexism in folk clubs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:37 PM

This question came out of the thread on sexual exploitation. That article started with a complaint that before performing, women are introduced by their looks, but men by their talent, the way athletes eete [are?] commentated as athletic if black and intelligent if white. Then the article, and the thread, went on about exploitation, but I was already shocked by the initial complaint.

I thought about refreshing the Is the US more sexist than racist thread but it did not appear to be on point. Same for other related threads.

So I ask of those of you who perform for, or are frequent members of, audiences where music-makers are introduced by an MCish individual: is it really the case that if you're female-looking, they say And now the lovely X, but if you look male, they say And now the talented Y?

---

Keep the topic on one thread, and leave it here. Thanks. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM

PFR, I've referred to the phenomenon as "reverse snobbery". People who love classical music (just a "f'rinstance") bemoan the negative qualities of fans of rock, or reggae, or folk (more f'rinstances) a loud or boring or smelly (whatever). A folkie (or whatever other f'rinstance) thinks how unfair and close-minded that is, because, after all, they aren't as open-minded, and kind, as US.
It's just one way people manage to (probably unintentionally) getting even with the bad guys by being better bad guys. Becoming that which they hate.

On topic.
There's a huge difference between what's done to people who have a choice and people who have done. In the former, the factor that leads to someone being taken advantage of, is innocence, or gullibility. It's the difference between emotional hurt and rape. I tend to think that, in the case of people who are taken of who are young enough so their brains haven't fully matured, the offenders should be prosecuted.

I had a very informative discussion with an OSI agent (if you know NCIS, it's the US Air Force's version), the brain maturity thing really does matter. Just ONE thing bad that can result is the victim may end up believing their worth depends on their sexuality.

But in the end, there are a whole load of things that SHOULD happen. Education, trust in adults who know better, and learning to have enough confidence and assertiveness to say "no" when someone makes an inappropriate suggestion.

Subject: RE: Sexism in folk clubs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 05:25 PM

Does it really matter?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 06:06 PM

"People who love classical music (just a "f'rinstance") bemoan the negative qualities of fans of rock, or reggae, or folk (more f'rinstances) a loud or boring or smelly (whatever).'

SOME people, eh, Jeri? I've been an aficionado of classical music for over half a century. My car CD collection includes mucho Elvis, Beatles, Stones, Carly Simon, Christy Moore, Planxty, Bothies, Glenn Miller, Shirley Collins, Dolly Parton, Mamas and Papas, Beach Boys and God knows how many others. Yeah, Pogues. And a ton of classical. No bloody jazz, no bloody Bing or Frank. Sorry for sounding so narrow,..

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 06:07 PM

Abba. I forgot Abba...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 07:13 PM

I would have been happy to leave it here, mudelf, but a) it's not what this thread is about and b) nobody is answering this question here. May we please have a separate thread for the separate question?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:17 PM

No, Mrr. Threads are supposed to be broader, not divided into tiny subdivisions. If we make subdivisions, then people start wanting to post the same thing in five different threads, just to make sure their opinion is seen.

But to answer your question, certainly there is sexism in folk clubs. There's sexism everywhere. But I think it would be correct to say that while there are sexist individuals in folk clubs, there generally is not an overall atmosphere of sexism. Folkies are, in general, quite careful to avoid sexism.

But on the other hand, all of us are awkward at times when it comes to matters of gender and sexuality. There have been times when I was madly in love with women who weren't madly in love with me, and that can make for uncomfortable moments. And let's face it - sometimes people don't understand us despite our best intentions, and sometimes we mess up and just don't say the right thing.

Rather than getting overly concerned about people being sexist, I think we're better off realizing that we're all horribly human.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:52 PM

As to Mrrzy's question, I think one folk club is one folk club. I've usually heard something about talent at the venues I've gone to, but I suppose if there's a sexist MC, things might be otherwise.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: hsempl
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 09:06 PM

I hesitated to respond on this (or any) thread, as my recent experience on the "Are racist, but traditional songs OK" thread was so upsetting. But this is important. There is in fact sexism in the folk community, as there is everywhere - but that does not mean it shouldn't be talked about, but that it should be.
Re Mrrzy's question, I don't have data, but the "and next the lovely (female singer)" vs. "and next the talented (male singer)" sounds very familiar. I can't speak to how often it happens though, but (once open mics are a thing again), I will certainly be listening for it. It is a fact that the reverse "And next the lovely (male singer)" does not sound like something that would be said, and that is telling.
And Joe, it is important to be concerned about sexism, as it does affect perception and comfort, and has had a very real affect on folk musicians' careers. And the fact that my stomach is in knots interacting here after observing the misogynistic language on that other thread (where you stated you had difficulty restraining yourself from choking women who had, in your opinion, humiliated you; and yes, I know that's just a manner of speaking, but words have impact and are also revealing), is a testament to the fact that sexism led to my discomfort in interacting in a forum that before that I had enjoyed; and that avoidance on my part because of my resultant discomfort leads to missed opportunities to connect.
Yes, we are all human, we all are quicker to see fault in others than in ourselves, and we all get hurt and hurt others, often unintentionally. We all have sore spots that get stepped on accidentally. But that humanness is again more reason to talk about the sexism and it's effects. This feels very rough to talk about.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 04:16 AM

Bonzo, as i have been the victim of sexual harassment it does matter to me.
It happens to men, heterosexual and probably gay men too, possibly gay women and heterosexual women

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 04:39 AM

Mrrzy,
I can't recall any occasion when female folk performers have been introduced by their looks and males by their talent. It's possible, of course, that I am so conditioned to hearing sexist remarks that I don't even notice. If it has happened, I feel it more likely to be "lovely and talented" rather than "lovely" vs "talented" and would be meant as a compliment. I think the same thing could apply if a female MC was introducing a male performer. As a male, I have never been introduced as handsome, good-looking, gorgeous or sexy but this has more to do with reality than sexism.

DCq

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 08:54 AM

I was wondering. I think it's all too easy not to *notice* how women are described by looks rather than behavior. Hope if this happens that MCs get called out on it.

And while I thank y'all for answering, I still think this separate question merited its own thread. However I do like the way you run the railroad, Joe, mudelves and all!

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 11:35 AM

We're lumping, not sorting here in BS, Mrrzy. It does help when people stop incessantly whining about not getting things their own way.

As a woman working in a "traditional" man's field in the 1970s I have lots of stories (that I won't share here). My college major was Forestry and I worked my way through college in the US Forest Service in timber management and forest fire fighting. Guys who were pretty good about being civil during the workday could be a royal pain in the evening if we were all down at the bar in the evening (in a small town there wasn't entertainment unless you went to the bar to play pool.) One boss had two women on his crew (a novelty back then) and used to act like he had a harem. Later working for the National Park Service, after changing majors, I encountered being hit on as a uniformed park ranger. The badge didn't seem to scare off jerks.

Getting ahead in a job, getting an opportunity to perform on stage, getting an opportunity to grow in your profession - as a group many women have had an uphill battle in many venues and often times changed fields career-wise to get away from the nonsense that management didn't choose to acknowledge. That was my experience in the 1970s and 80s. My experience around the folk scene was to drop in on hoots or song circles at my Dad's house or to attend concerts and parties after. The predators were there, as has been described above. All things being equal, it has been easier in the last couple of decades, but then, I'm older now, almost "invisible" as a crone in my 60s. There is something to be said for older women being able to simply get on with their lives without reference to being hit on by men.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

Stilly - for some reason, "Granny P0rn" has now become a big thing on the internet...

So don't get complacent and drop your defence radar, too soon just yet..

The pervs for your demographic are out there searching and waiting...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:31 AM

Anyone who seeks porn on the internet should have their head examined and maybe should be taking medication

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:28 AM

Dick - it's 2001, and you seem to have a good internet connection...???

By now even most old folkie traditionalists have learned
they no longer need to be embarrassed asking newsagents
for under the counter mucky magazines and videos wrapped in a brown paper bag...

Unless some folks are still into hair shirts and self flagellation to repress their sinful thoughts...???

Frankly, that blurted puritanical statement is one of your oddest.

Particularly, posted in a thread concerned with very old fashioned male attitudes regarding sexual expression,
and entitlement...?????

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM

Odd. no, I disapprove of sexual exploitation.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Good lord.. I've just looked at the clock.. it's actually 2020...!!!

Two generations since the sexual revolution,
which has resulted in an uncomfortable mix up of positive progressively healthy,
and other more negative exploitative harmful,
attitudes and behaviours...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM

Sexual exploitation involves those who have to pose for internet pornography.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:43 AM

Dick - as with folk music, there is good and bad 'p0rn'..

Simplistic sweeping generalised dismissals should not apply...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:46 AM

Dick - I'm sure that here we all agree,
that any sexual activity where there is coercion and lack of consent is wrong,
and should be stamped on heavily by law enforcement...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

I agree with Dick about this, on the whole (though you'd need an awful lot of shrinks to examine all those heads...). I don't think there's good and bad porn, just bad porn. Porn exploits both the actors and the receivers of the stuff, and porn diminishes humanity in the same way that the cynical gambling industry and the trade in illicit drugs does. It seems to me that, often, it's the users of such outlets who seek to justify them. One of the worst aspects of porn is that it is now the chief way in which young people learn about sex, and that's a very distorted form of learning about relationships in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing odd about being against sexual exploitation, online pornography of any kind involves sexual exploitation

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

All I'll say for now is,
this is yet another contentious issue that is far too complex for simplistic sweeping opinions from old men only...

There are plenty of strong independent women who would and do argue a case for positive p0rn,
created and distributed on their own terms..

Are you the men to tell them they are wrong...???

Btw.. My own 'old man opinion' is MOST existing p0rn is bad p0rn...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:26 PM

"...created and distributed on their own terms.."

Sure. Until they get mercilessly dumped on the scrapheap for being too wrinkly or saggy.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM

Steve - your opinion and presumptions versus the reality
of self determining autonomous women forging their own path in life..

Neither you nor I can speak for them,
and probably not much chance the'll debate their case here at mudcat...????

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:54 PM

.. and the sheer amount of 'granny p0rn" on the internet
kinda quells your concern for saggy wrinkly redundancies...???

I can only guess who the main target market is,
but there is an obvious substantial demand for it...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:10 PM

age is irrelevant and so is gender , people are entitled to opinions on this subject whether they are male female or trans gender.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:29 PM

Dick - but isn't this thread primarily concerned with questioning the extent
male voices and agendas dominate discussions on sexuality...???

Evidence here tends to suggest it does...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:50 PM

Dick - We are blokes, we are over 60;
and despite good intentions,
some of us are not as well informed and clear thinking open minded on these issues,
as we vainly think we are...???

Women of any age, orientation, and opinions,
have stopped posting in this thread while we continue to pontificate...

Does that not tell you something...???

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM

no.
now i am going to be absent for a while busy with other matters for a few days, have a nice day and enjoy and all the other stuff

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 04:39 PM

It is not whether you are male or not (to me at least). It is whether you are creepy or abusive. I am careful on mudcat because of both types of people who present as men, very few in number to be sure. Most men here are fine, it seems, but then you never know. Pays to be careful. I refuse to read one person and am cautious around others.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 06:37 PM

Not sure what you mean as "present as men." The men I consort with here are, as far as I can see, are all honest-to-goodness men, even though a couple of them appear to be ne'er-do-wells. You really can't spend your life as if everyone is out to get you. I'm Steve, I'm a bloke (a feature which I can't help), I'm easy to track down here in north Cornwall for anyone who wants to bother, because I hide nothing. Why would I. You can get me straight away as a pin on Google Earth. Call in and I'll do you a cappuccino with my bean-to-cup, or a blow-off-your-head triple espresso (I'm a Lavazzo red label man) if you like (and I do like). Straight as a die. I even got my request played on BBC Radio 3 this morning (if you can get it, it was on Essential Classics at about 10.30 AM) to try to cheer up my sister who can't get to her beloved Andalucía this year due to the lockdown. They played Sevilla by Albéniz for me, on piano played by Alicia de Larrocha. I can tell you what we had for tea tonight, and that I'm going to see my 91-year-old mum in her care home tomorrow morning with a big stash of her favourite biscuits. If you find any of that creepy, do let me know. I get that any internet forum is two-dimensional and that it sometimes feels necessary to prowl around certain people with a healthy degree of suspicion. Same here. But we are not all Jack The Rippers, and it would be nice if you could keep your justifiable cautions to yourself rather than do a generalised smear.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 07:51 PM

I will never call you and I will never meet with you. If by accident I do, I will be civil.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:31 PM

Give me a call next time you're in north Cornwall and you'll be amazed at the royal way Mrs Steve and I will greet you!

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:20 AM

steve, you may have opened the floodgates there. When my better half and I go out for day trips, we always look for a 'ye old tea shoppe' to stop at for refreshments - particularly if combined with scones and clotted cream or some other cake!

All, with reference to the OP, I hope the person in the link hasn't come away with the idea that sexual exploitation is endemic in the folk scene, as this happens by the hands of a small minority in all fields of arts and employment where men (and sometimes women) abuse their position of power and authority.

W

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:46 AM

Right. It's a predatory-and-vulnerable-people problem, not a folk music problem.

Predators gonna prey. It's up to parents not to rear predators, parents to rear less vulnerable offspring, and society to protect those remaining vulnerable and to punish those remaining predatory.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:45 AM

Article on FB by Marit Fält:

Here is an open letter from Norwegian trad/folk musicians and dancers regarding sexual harassment in the scene which I thought some of you might find interesting. This is the article through Google translate with some corrections:

So far, it seems that in the book industry it is safe to harass others. Exposing them is no one's responsibility. " Author Agnes Ravatn's Sunday comment in 'Aftenposten' newspaper is all too recognizable. Also for many in the folk music and folk dance environment.

For some of us, it is a shock that sexual abuse and harassment occur to a large extent in our own environment. Many have nevertheless experienced varying degrees of harassment, which in total constitutes a pattern. A pattern that we must open our eyes to, a tradition we should have killed a long time ago.
But none of us have ever seen or heard anyone in the scene warn about this. Now the time is ripe. With this text, we come together around this one issue: To make the folk music and folk dance environment a safe arena where everyone should be able to participate equally freely - without restraint.

Harrowing stories emerge
We are a small environment with voluntary teams, practitioners, educational institutions and workplaces. It is an environment which exists in social situations where different generations meet, an environment often including alcohol. Body contact in traditional dance is a natural part of our social gatherings. It is also an environment with focus on learning.

We experience it by and large as a positive environment. There are strong social bonds, people meet in common love for and interest in folk music and folk dance. But in parts of the environment, a man-heavy and patriarchal way of thinking and behavior is still dominant.

Doubtful and vulgar behaviors and verbal statements are often discussed and explained away with laughter and humor. We find a cultivation of individuals and give them permission to behave differently than others.

In recent years, a number of shocking stories have emerged about women who have been subjected to rape or attempted rape. Which without warning has revealed very noisy and unpleasant approaches and experiences. Some have also been exposed to verbal harassment, violence and other humiliating experiences.
Many of those who have performed these actions have different roles. Some have positions and power that make the threshold for reporting particularly high. Who will then warn and "destroy" an otherwise fine environment by downgrading the reputation of individuals? Moreover, the environment is so small, that one might find that one sees/meets the person in question for years to come, at competitions and festivals.

We are also aware that men have been exposed to harassment from women, but to a much lesser extent. Dark numbers can be large here and should be investigated.

We need stronger measures to be taken
Like the authors, (there seems to have been a discussion regarding sexual harassment in the literary scene in Norway) there are few folk musicians and folk dancers thatare also part of a common system that one can naturally warn and sanction. We rarely have a safety representative or an elected representative to turn to. And what should the sanctions be?

In connection with the #metoo movement in 2017, Folkorg (folk music and dance organisation) sent out guidelines for sexual harassment and abuse. We need stronger measures. A professional device that maps the scope, and adds a low-threshold offer for notification that can take care of both those who are exposed to harassment and abuse, and those who carry it out.

We urge the Norwegian Center for Folk Music and Folk Dance, with its overall organizational role above the field of folk music, to initiate immediate measures. We need a strategy on behalf of Folkorg, the Norwegian Youth Association and other folk music organizations. Preferably in consultation with Creo.

We need the environment to acknowledge that this is happening, and intervene. We need a deep dive into this and measures to secure the future we wish for future generations in folk music and folk dance. Only in this way can we both uncover these behaviors, and know to what extent and in what forums this happens. Not least, we can make the whole environment aware and responsible.
Those who sign the article have not necessarily been exposed to direct or serious #metoo experiences themselves. But they support those who have:

(Look at link for the names)

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM

Marit's Norwegian link.

https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/i/6zk6aQ/tvilsam-og-vulgaer-framferd-me-maa-opne-augo-for-seksuell-trakassering

(I forgot that some mod with a weirdly creepy agenda had shoved this thread below the line to get it out of the way - dunno who they're shielding. I won't be looking at it again unless I see it moved back where I put it).

---

Any thread with a sexual context is searched for and posted to incessantly by spammers and trolls. The amount of work needed to keep this thread running above the line isn't worth it and someone would have closed it months ago. ---Mudelf who has better things to do than shovel out porn links left behind by spammers

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:43 AM

This whole discussion brings me right back to the early days of revelations of child abuse by priests and nuns. The immediate leap to defend the organisation, the disbelief, the victim-blame…

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM

I missed this in those few days in August. I was surprised too at the title, so I began reading the original link, and was expecting just a sad case of the all-too-common attempts by some men to 'hit on' young women. It happens in almost every field, and I was reading to see why 'folk' was being singled out. Of course, this young lady's first experience of DID happen in a folk camp...so...
Anyway, I read until I came to this:
". Someone who I saw as a friendly, professional, teacher figure had the audacity to message me like this. When I declined he told me it must have been one of his band mates messing around and pranking him. I believed the ‘banterous’ excuse and forgot about it. Until one night, he sent it again and I obliged…several times over a few months."

Suddenly, I thought... WHY did she simply 'oblige' after the 2nd request? Well, now the entire article took on a different tone. Despite the clearly inappropriate and exploitative 'request', there was now a case of the mental state of the victim, who was really unable to cope and had serious problems of self esteem.
   So, I began to read the replies and was partly bemused and partly upset by the way various people reacted. Some rose up in righteous indignation at the man.. and by extension, all men in any field who do this sort of thing. Others wanted names & details... as if that was really important to the main point. Others used the general topic of 'sex' to muse on human interactions in general and advance subjective opinions on 'p0rn' in general and the internet specifically.. without, as far as I could discern, any real expertise on the topic.
   (In case you wonder, I DO know what I'm talking about..)

By the time I had worked my way thru those who wanted to move the thread to MUSIC and those who explained that it was a bad idea and those who tried vainly to cast some semblance of reason to the relevance of the entire topic, I now see it refreshed with details.. and *another* thread drift to abuse by the clergy.

Yes, Mr. Campin... when there is evidence, something should be done and measures should be taken. I am not sure why Mudcat is the venue to pursue the details, but I do agree with the mods that it is not a matter that belongs above the line.
I'm not sure what else to say, but I'd think the whole thing has had about all the airing it deserves here.....

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 10:30 PM

Good points, Bill.