Sexual exploitation in folk

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:12 AM

There are two issues in that original article, and I'm only addressing the first.

Do people really introduce female folkies by their looks, and male folkies by their talent? If so, that is akin to white players being described as smart and black ones as athletic. That would be a sexism problem in folk music.

The other issue of exploitation happened *through* folk music but is an issue of exploitation, not of folk music itself, which was the vector, not the virus, if you will. And was horrible, but I'd like to address the introduction thing.

Do those of you who do open mikes, club performances, and folk festivals --Anything where you are introduced by an emcee-type presenter-- really have that happen? I have not noticed that myself but rarely go see live music.

Please note I am not trying to minimize the exploitation part. I was shocked by the sexism brought up in the beginning of that article, and thought the writer would go on about sexism specifically in folk music, rather than about sexual exploitation that could have happened in any other context where there are unsupervised predatory and vulnerable individuals. Yes, it's horrible, but it's not my question. Please don't hurt me.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 03:56 AM

And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) and some of those not named will simply carry on as before.
quote ann lister
It is not a question of closing ranks, it is a question of prosecuting using the correct channels, EG social workers and police
so that people like Noel Murphy Dave Cooper and anyone else who is guilty gets CORRECTLY tried and if found guilty gets punished , that is the only way to make it clear this sort of behaviour is not acceptable. THE QUOTE your words.. Ann Lister, makes assumptions which i find insulting .

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 02:32 AM

There were at least two sexual offenders on this forum,one of them still contributes both were convicted and had their punishment they have aright to remain anonymous., unless this forum involves them working with children,
One who used to contribute here, but who died recently, both Anne and i knew, as he ran a folk club in South East london and then nottingham,his daughter reported him to the police
   I would have thought the correct procedure was to report any kind of abuse to social wprkers and police., if the person is prosecuted and found guilty., then name them.
allegations or innuendo that is not backed, up is not in my opinion acceptable, that does not mean that i think sexual abuse is acceptable, or that or that this example is invented.
remember there is a a sytem of justice innocent until proven guilty, or do we try people on mudcat via a kangaroo court?.
Sexual abuse is not acceptable, but there are systems in place to deal with it, to protact other people that system should be used and prosecution should take place based on evidence.
That was what happened to Noel Murphy and DaveCooper and absolutely right too.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 12:08 AM

This was addressed in the previous post. But here I go: There are predators of all types everywhere. The issue is not the nature of the venue, but the protection the venue affords. In a world with a disparity of power (in other words, THIS world we live in), people will take advantage of other people. When a particular venue offers a lack of oversight, or a perversion of oversight, more advantage will be taken.
We have seen this in religion. We have seen this in sports. And we have seen this in ENTERTAINMENT. Politics is so obvious I'm only mentioning it here because if I don't mention it someone will mention that I didn't mention it.

So, is folk music simply part of ME TOO or is there a special reason for particularizing it here and now? Is there something about folk music that offers a special protection for this kind of behavior?

The main invitation to the misbehavior seems to be a common assumption that "It can't happen here."

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 11:30 PM

There is a very good reason why this was moved to the BS section. This kind of thread attracts an incredible amount of spam and trolling. The only way to keep that out of it is to move it to the members only section.

And despite what people have said about sexual predators being in the folk scene, they are everywhere. I've met them in different fields of work unrelated to music. They're on campus, where I recently spent many years as staff. Please continue to discuss the topic here but understand that moderation becomes a lot more difficult with this particular topic if it isn't behind the membership firewall.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 07:38 PM

I think that we should read the woman's account quietly and non-judgementally of her. Some of us of sound and lusty mental strength (yeah, right...) simply do not understand what some young women are going through as they are they are shamelessly exploited by men in positions of power who cash in cynically and ruthlessly on their vulnerabilities in this social-media world of peer pressures. We should never say gullible, we should never say naive, we should never say they were asking for it. There are times when I feel ashamed to be a bloke when I read things like this young woman's account of what happened to her. It isn't a transient thing that will pass by the end of next week. It could scar you for life.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 07:21 PM

If you think this thread doesn't belong with the music threads, or if you think it shouldn't be here at all, shame on you and your toxic masculinity

The thread was started by a male who has made it clear that he intentionally put it in the music section and has objected to it being moved. A female Mod has declared that it doesn't belong in the music section and, presumably, moved it below the line. Not everything can be blamed on "toxic masculinity".

Is the music actually part of the context, .....

In my opinion, the thread belong above the line because music is, most definitely, part of the of the context. It provides the setting where the abuser can operate. Musical accomplishment may start with raw talent but it is drawn out by those with more experience. This generally puts older musicians in a dominant position to those just starting out. Music tuition can often be on a one-to-one basis. Of course, the vast majority of musicians are not abusers but the few who are can cause untold damage.

Abuse takes place in all walks of life but, as people involved in folk music, it is incumbent on us to watch out for where it might be happening in the folk music world. Discussing this above the line may also act as a reminder to genuine, caring musicians not to put themselves into situations which could be misinterpreted.

DC

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 06:58 PM

I may be a fan of folk music,
but I've never been very keen on the folk scene..

There seems to me,
too many smug supercilious conformist reactionaries,
who wouldn't be out of place in a provincial conservative club..

.. even if they dress in 'free spirited bohemian' folkie uniform,
and self-identify as progressive liberals..


I read this young woman's blog page, and it is far too plausible
to be so easily discounted as mere lurid youthful fan fiction...???

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 05:34 PM

You rock, Doctor Lister.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 05:25 PM

I am, frankly, appalled at some of the responses on this thread. I can speak with some experience, gathered over fifty years of being female and involved with folk music, and can assure those men who seem to think this is "scurrilous" or somehow invented that there have been sexual predators in the folk music world for as long as I've known it. This has never been talked about, and names have never been named (as indeed they are not on this thread). Women have just dealt with it and put up with it. If you continue to react with disbelief or anger at those who have been prey to the predators, it will continue and all the men involved will continue to enjoy the unjustifiable privilege that comes simply by being male. Surely we can do better than this in 2020? If you think this thread doesn't belong with the music threads, or if you think it shouldn't be here at all, shame on you and your toxic masculinity. Those of you who know me personally will know I don't usually talk in these terms. I have been supremely blessed by the good male friends I have made over the years, and I am married to a man who is the very antithesis to the men I will continue to call predators. But I can vividly remember some of the encounters I have had, and the heartbreak caused to friends of mine by some of the people concerned.
Sadly, I also know some people here (and on Facebook) dislike any suggestion that their worldview may be restricted and restrictive, and I have experienced before in this forum just how unpleasant their reactions can be - it's one reason I don't post here very much and normally avoid any thread where it's likely to happen. But this is important. I have experienced these sexual predators myself as musicians, club organisers and agents. I know they have been out there for years, and it seems they still are, only now it's a younger generation. If I'm not naming names it's because some of them are no longer with us, and some of them are no longer on the music scene, while some of them are people with whom I have resolved matters to my own satisfaction. But when are men going to own responsibility for their behaviour, and why does it take some brave young women to call it out?
A major difficulty is that the men responsible for this are personable, charming and easy to take at face value. If they weren't, they wouldn't succeed. And of course they are all over our modern society, as they have always been - the folk world isn't unusual or exceptional. What is different about the folk world is we like to think we are more liberal, more tolerant, more aware of social injustice, and so on, which is why it is all the more shocking to find people abusing their fame, or their status, or their position.

And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) and some of those not named will simply carry on as before. However, what you can do is listen - first, and most importantly, to the women who have experienced this at first hand, and secondly to those men who might at some point brag about their behaviour to you. Be aware. Be very aware, and see what you can do. The women are speaking up - think of what courage that takes, and listen to them.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:21 PM

Noel Murphy was found guilty.
so no problem mentioning his name.
A folk singer who sexually assaulted a girl while on tour four decades ago has been jailed for 18 months.

Noel Murphy, 74, attacked his victim, who was 11 or 12 at the time, while touring north Wales in the 1970s.

Mold Crown Court heard she "lost control of her life" after her ordeal and had even contemplated suicide.

Murphy, who admitted three counts of indecent assault, had a minor UK hit in 1987 with the novelty song Murphy and The Bricks.

As well as the prison term, Ireland-born Murphy will be on the sex offenders register for the next 10 years.
There happens to be a convicted sex offender who is a member of this forum. he has done his prison sentence and has the right to remain anonymous.

The musician, who was once part of the band Murf and Shaggis, toured UK folk clubs in the 1960s and 1970s but quit music in 2005 due to health reasons.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:14 PM

i have no problem about naming names after they have been prosecuted and found guilty.
JACK , ITS NOT ABOUT WANTING TO KNOW IT IS ABOUT [PROSECUTION ON EVIDENCE] AND THEN THE PERSONS NAME BEING MENTIONED IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 03:06 PM

Marit undoubtedly knows the names and she is somebody to be respected.

You don't need to know who the people are to know there is an issue to be dealt with and to discuss how best to deal with it.

Seems some people don't want to know.

I'm out of here until this thread reappears where I intentionally put it.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 02:38 PM

I have known some people who have had 30,000 sexual partners and some with 1.
sExploitation could enter the equation with any partners above the number 0.
Its not any of my business unless a criminal attack has ocurred.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 02:35 PM

In recent years minor 'hit record' success old folkie N*** M*****,
got sentenced for kiddie fiddling..
.. and not a word about it at mudcat...

I debated the value of starting a thread myself,
if no one else did..
but eventually my interest wained, and I forgot..

Are folkies as bad as the tory party for closing ranks and keeping quiet...?????

[N*** M*****- I've got no problem naming guilty names, but some here seem to have...]

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:39 PM

A thread that can result in he-said she-said and character assassination does not belong in the music section. The venue may have been musical, but the topic isn't.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:35 PM

oh, yes, indeed, you should have, Jack.
And I'm not the only one reading this who believes so.

...ahem!
Speak up, the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 01:22 PM

Do you know who the woman is Jack? Have you evidence to prove the veracity of her words?
No I don't suppose you do, but you are willing to make assumptions based on unproven accusations, and draw your own conclusions as to whom she is referring.
Sorry Jack, but you should never have posted this.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 12:31 PM

this is a scurrilous disgraceful thread, if the person has a complaint take it to the police,
Jack you should be ashamed of yourself,innuendo and smearing of the uk folk revival, pack it up or name the offenders and take the consequences, of slander or libel.. or bring charges

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 11:25 AM

The contact was made via a music camp, which had protocols in place that nominally addressed the issue, but didn't enforce them (and probably couldn't).

It's not a personal matter that could happen to anyone in the same way. It's to do with the institutional failure of the folk scene.

Whichever mod is doing the censoring: either put it back in the music section or have the guts to delete it entirely. I got the reference from Marit Fält on FB and the discussion can perfectly well continue in her thread. (All her FB friends are musicians and they will get the point).

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:55 AM

Is the music actually part of the context, or should she have pulled back a bit and written about this sleazeball man who is famous in his field. It opens up into the #MeToo movement if you simply examine this in the context of all men in positions of power in their field of business.

This isn't really a music discussion.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM

Jack who is she writing about, i have no idea?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:39 AM

I have experienced the occasional incompetent MC, and witnessed a few poor introductions by MCS.
I will be interested to see how this thread and this attack upon the integrity of the UK FOLK REVIVAL and folk music develops.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Similar issues in Irish Traditional music: #Misefoste

https://journalofmusic.com/news/rte-investigation-highlights-sexual-abuse-irish-traditional-music?fbclid=IwAR1abUHjteWThZK1Q8yF9PRjgjMWCCnye7e-0iNcPNC6i1gPMdn-PpEUjmw#.XxriybQ4BL0.facebook

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM

I think I can guess who she's writing about.

Other folks know, and aren't saying anything.

This isn't in the Jeffrey Epstein league but it can't go on.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:23 AM

I suppose she means she has lost faith in the uk folk revival ,a different thing from losing faith in folk music.
Is this a true overall representation of the uk folk revival?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 10:18 AM

Could you explain what you mean by 'shite' in this context? Not true? Not important? Something else?

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 09:33 AM

If you can read all that shite I take my hat off to you.

Dave H

Subject: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Aug 20 - 09:26 AM

I can think of three guys my age and one a bit older who this could have been about if they'd had Instagram and WhatsApp 30 years ago. She's presumably talking about a generation down from that, with more opportunities to abuse their position.

https://ejjustabout.wordpress.com/2020/07/27/why-i-lost-faith-in-folk-music/