Sexual exploitation in folk

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

Stilly - for some reason, "Granny P0rn" has now become a big thing on the internet...

So don't get complacent and drop your defence radar, too soon just yet..

The pervs for your demographic are out there searching and waiting...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:31 AM

Anyone who seeks porn on the internet should have their head examined and maybe should be taking medication

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:28 AM

Dick - it's 2001, and you seem to have a good internet connection...???

By now even most old folkie traditionalists have learned
they no longer need to be embarrassed asking newsagents
for under the counter mucky magazines and videos wrapped in a brown paper bag...

Unless some folks are still into hair shirts and self flagellation to repress their sinful thoughts...???

Frankly, that blurted puritanical statement is one of your oddest.

Particularly, posted in a thread concerned with very old fashioned male attitudes regarding sexual expression,
and entitlement...?????

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM

Odd. no, I disapprove of sexual exploitation.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Good lord.. I've just looked at the clock.. it's actually 2020...!!!

Two generations since the sexual revolution,
which has resulted in an uncomfortable mix up of positive progressively healthy,
and other more negative exploitative harmful,
attitudes and behaviours...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM

Sexual exploitation involves those who have to pose for internet pornography.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:43 AM

Dick - as with folk music, there is good and bad 'p0rn'..

Simplistic sweeping generalised dismissals should not apply...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:46 AM

Dick - I'm sure that here we all agree,
that any sexual activity where there is coercion and lack of consent is wrong,
and should be stamped on heavily by law enforcement...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

I agree with Dick about this, on the whole (though you'd need an awful lot of shrinks to examine all those heads...). I don't think there's good and bad porn, just bad porn. Porn exploits both the actors and the receivers of the stuff, and porn diminishes humanity in the same way that the cynical gambling industry and the trade in illicit drugs does. It seems to me that, often, it's the users of such outlets who seek to justify them. One of the worst aspects of porn is that it is now the chief way in which young people learn about sex, and that's a very distorted form of learning about relationships in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing odd about being against sexual exploitation, online pornography of any kind involves sexual exploitation

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

All I'll say for now is,
this is yet another contentious issue that is far too complex for simplistic sweeping opinions from old men only...

There are plenty of strong independent women who would and do argue a case for positive p0rn,
created and distributed on their own terms..

Are you the men to tell them they are wrong...???

Btw.. My own 'old man opinion' is MOST existing p0rn is bad p0rn...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:26 PM

"...created and distributed on their own terms.."

Sure. Until they get mercilessly dumped on the scrapheap for being too wrinkly or saggy.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM

Steve - your opinion and presumptions versus the reality
of self determining autonomous women forging their own path in life..

Neither you nor I can speak for them,
and probably not much chance the'll debate their case here at mudcat...????

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:54 PM

.. and the sheer amount of 'granny p0rn" on the internet
kinda quells your concern for saggy wrinkly redundancies...???

I can only guess who the main target market is,
but there is an obvious substantial demand for it...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:10 PM

age is irrelevant and so is gender , people are entitled to opinions on this subject whether they are male female or trans gender.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:29 PM

Dick - but isn't this thread primarily concerned with questioning the extent
male voices and agendas dominate discussions on sexuality...???

Evidence here tends to suggest it does...

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:50 PM

Dick - We are blokes, we are over 60;
and despite good intentions,
some of us are not as well informed and clear thinking open minded on these issues,
as we vainly think we are...???

Women of any age, orientation, and opinions,
have stopped posting in this thread while we continue to pontificate...

Does that not tell you something...???

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM

no.
now i am going to be absent for a while busy with other matters for a few days, have a nice day and enjoy and all the other stuff

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 04:39 PM

It is not whether you are male or not (to me at least). It is whether you are creepy or abusive. I am careful on mudcat because of both types of people who present as men, very few in number to be sure. Most men here are fine, it seems, but then you never know. Pays to be careful. I refuse to read one person and am cautious around others.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 06:37 PM

Not sure what you mean as "present as men." The men I consort with here are, as far as I can see, are all honest-to-goodness men, even though a couple of them appear to be ne'er-do-wells. You really can't spend your life as if everyone is out to get you. I'm Steve, I'm a bloke (a feature which I can't help), I'm easy to track down here in north Cornwall for anyone who wants to bother, because I hide nothing. Why would I. You can get me straight away as a pin on Google Earth. Call in and I'll do you a cappuccino with my bean-to-cup, or a blow-off-your-head triple espresso (I'm a Lavazzo red label man) if you like (and I do like). Straight as a die. I even got my request played on BBC Radio 3 this morning (if you can get it, it was on Essential Classics at about 10.30 AM) to try to cheer up my sister who can't get to her beloved Andalucía this year due to the lockdown. They played Sevilla by Albéniz for me, on piano played by Alicia de Larrocha. I can tell you what we had for tea tonight, and that I'm going to see my 91-year-old mum in her care home tomorrow morning with a big stash of her favourite biscuits. If you find any of that creepy, do let me know. I get that any internet forum is two-dimensional and that it sometimes feels necessary to prowl around certain people with a healthy degree of suspicion. Same here. But we are not all Jack The Rippers, and it would be nice if you could keep your justifiable cautions to yourself rather than do a generalised smear.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 07:51 PM

I will never call you and I will never meet with you. If by accident I do, I will be civil.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:31 PM

Give me a call next time you're in north Cornwall and you'll be amazed at the royal way Mrs Steve and I will greet you!

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:20 AM

steve, you may have opened the floodgates there. When my better half and I go out for day trips, we always look for a 'ye old tea shoppe' to stop at for refreshments - particularly if combined with scones and clotted cream or some other cake!

All, with reference to the OP, I hope the person in the link hasn't come away with the idea that sexual exploitation is endemic in the folk scene, as this happens by the hands of a small minority in all fields of arts and employment where men (and sometimes women) abuse their position of power and authority.

W

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:46 AM

Right. It's a predatory-and-vulnerable-people problem, not a folk music problem.

Predators gonna prey. It's up to parents not to rear predators, parents to rear less vulnerable offspring, and society to protect those remaining vulnerable and to punish those remaining predatory.

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:45 AM

Article on FB by Marit Fält:

Here is an open letter from Norwegian trad/folk musicians and dancers regarding sexual harassment in the scene which I thought some of you might find interesting. This is the article through Google translate with some corrections:

So far, it seems that in the book industry it is safe to harass others. Exposing them is no one's responsibility. " Author Agnes Ravatn's Sunday comment in 'Aftenposten' newspaper is all too recognizable. Also for many in the folk music and folk dance environment.

For some of us, it is a shock that sexual abuse and harassment occur to a large extent in our own environment. Many have nevertheless experienced varying degrees of harassment, which in total constitutes a pattern. A pattern that we must open our eyes to, a tradition we should have killed a long time ago.
But none of us have ever seen or heard anyone in the scene warn about this. Now the time is ripe. With this text, we come together around this one issue: To make the folk music and folk dance environment a safe arena where everyone should be able to participate equally freely - without restraint.

Harrowing stories emerge
We are a small environment with voluntary teams, practitioners, educational institutions and workplaces. It is an environment which exists in social situations where different generations meet, an environment often including alcohol. Body contact in traditional dance is a natural part of our social gatherings. It is also an environment with focus on learning.

We experience it by and large as a positive environment. There are strong social bonds, people meet in common love for and interest in folk music and folk dance. But in parts of the environment, a man-heavy and patriarchal way of thinking and behavior is still dominant.

Doubtful and vulgar behaviors and verbal statements are often discussed and explained away with laughter and humor. We find a cultivation of individuals and give them permission to behave differently than others.

In recent years, a number of shocking stories have emerged about women who have been subjected to rape or attempted rape. Which without warning has revealed very noisy and unpleasant approaches and experiences. Some have also been exposed to verbal harassment, violence and other humiliating experiences.
Many of those who have performed these actions have different roles. Some have positions and power that make the threshold for reporting particularly high. Who will then warn and "destroy" an otherwise fine environment by downgrading the reputation of individuals? Moreover, the environment is so small, that one might find that one sees/meets the person in question for years to come, at competitions and festivals.

We are also aware that men have been exposed to harassment from women, but to a much lesser extent. Dark numbers can be large here and should be investigated.

We need stronger measures to be taken
Like the authors, (there seems to have been a discussion regarding sexual harassment in the literary scene in Norway) there are few folk musicians and folk dancers thatare also part of a common system that one can naturally warn and sanction. We rarely have a safety representative or an elected representative to turn to. And what should the sanctions be?

In connection with the #metoo movement in 2017, Folkorg (folk music and dance organisation) sent out guidelines for sexual harassment and abuse. We need stronger measures. A professional device that maps the scope, and adds a low-threshold offer for notification that can take care of both those who are exposed to harassment and abuse, and those who carry it out.

We urge the Norwegian Center for Folk Music and Folk Dance, with its overall organizational role above the field of folk music, to initiate immediate measures. We need a strategy on behalf of Folkorg, the Norwegian Youth Association and other folk music organizations. Preferably in consultation with Creo.

We need the environment to acknowledge that this is happening, and intervene. We need a deep dive into this and measures to secure the future we wish for future generations in folk music and folk dance. Only in this way can we both uncover these behaviors, and know to what extent and in what forums this happens. Not least, we can make the whole environment aware and responsible.
Those who sign the article have not necessarily been exposed to direct or serious #metoo experiences themselves. But they support those who have:

(Look at link for the names)

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM

Marit's Norwegian link.

https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/i/6zk6aQ/tvilsam-og-vulgaer-framferd-me-maa-opne-augo-for-seksuell-trakassering

(I forgot that some mod with a weirdly creepy agenda had shoved this thread below the line to get it out of the way - dunno who they're shielding. I won't be looking at it again unless I see it moved back where I put it).

---

Any thread with a sexual context is searched for and posted to incessantly by spammers and trolls. The amount of work needed to keep this thread running above the line isn't worth it and someone would have closed it months ago. ---Mudelf who has better things to do than shovel out porn links left behind by spammers

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:43 AM

This whole discussion brings me right back to the early days of revelations of child abuse by priests and nuns. The immediate leap to defend the organisation, the disbelief, the victim-blame…

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM

I missed this in those few days in August. I was surprised too at the title, so I began reading the original link, and was expecting just a sad case of the all-too-common attempts by some men to 'hit on' young women. It happens in almost every field, and I was reading to see why 'folk' was being singled out. Of course, this young lady's first experience of DID happen in a folk camp...so...
Anyway, I read until I came to this:
". Someone who I saw as a friendly, professional, teacher figure had the audacity to message me like this. When I declined he told me it must have been one of his band mates messing around and pranking him. I believed the ‘banterous’ excuse and forgot about it. Until one night, he sent it again and I obliged…several times over a few months."

Suddenly, I thought... WHY did she simply 'oblige' after the 2nd request? Well, now the entire article took on a different tone. Despite the clearly inappropriate and exploitative 'request', there was now a case of the mental state of the victim, who was really unable to cope and had serious problems of self esteem.
   So, I began to read the replies and was partly bemused and partly upset by the way various people reacted. Some rose up in righteous indignation at the man.. and by extension, all men in any field who do this sort of thing. Others wanted names & details... as if that was really important to the main point. Others used the general topic of 'sex' to muse on human interactions in general and advance subjective opinions on 'p0rn' in general and the internet specifically.. without, as far as I could discern, any real expertise on the topic.
   (In case you wonder, I DO know what I'm talking about..)

By the time I had worked my way thru those who wanted to move the thread to MUSIC and those who explained that it was a bad idea and those who tried vainly to cast some semblance of reason to the relevance of the entire topic, I now see it refreshed with details.. and *another* thread drift to abuse by the clergy.

Yes, Mr. Campin... when there is evidence, something should be done and measures should be taken. I am not sure why Mudcat is the venue to pursue the details, but I do agree with the mods that it is not a matter that belongs above the line.
I'm not sure what else to say, but I'd think the whole thing has had about all the airing it deserves here.....

Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 10:30 PM

Good points, Bill.