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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Allan Conn 09 May 21 - 04:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 21 - 03:35 PM
Allan Conn 09 May 21 - 02:59 PM
DMcG 09 May 21 - 01:59 PM
peteglasgow 09 May 21 - 01:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 21 - 09:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 21 - 09:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 21 - 08:53 AM
Raggytash 09 May 21 - 07:42 AM
peteglasgow 09 May 21 - 06:47 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 21 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 21 - 06:06 AM
peteglasgow 09 May 21 - 05:30 AM
Backwoodsman 09 May 21 - 05:22 AM
The Sandman 09 May 21 - 01:57 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 05:49 PM
Backwoodsman 08 May 21 - 04:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 21 - 04:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 21 - 03:49 PM
Backwoodsman 08 May 21 - 03:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 21 - 02:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 21 - 02:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 21 - 02:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 21 - 02:13 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 01:21 PM
DMcG 08 May 21 - 12:32 PM
The Sandman 08 May 21 - 10:31 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 21 - 10:20 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 09:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 21 - 09:04 AM
DMcG 08 May 21 - 08:39 AM
peteglasgow 08 May 21 - 08:07 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 21 - 07:23 AM
mayomick 08 May 21 - 06:52 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 21 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 05:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 21 - 05:21 AM
Allan Conn 08 May 21 - 05:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 21 - 04:21 AM
The Sandman 08 May 21 - 02:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 21 - 12:18 AM
Steve Shaw 07 May 21 - 06:14 PM
The Sandman 07 May 21 - 04:52 PM
mayomick 07 May 21 - 04:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 07 May 21 - 03:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 21 - 01:15 PM
Backwoodsman 07 May 21 - 11:28 AM
Backwoodsman 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM
Steve Shaw 07 May 21 - 11:11 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 21 - 04:36 PM

It is true though PFR. Scotland returns very few Tory MPs and the vast bulk of Scottish members are pretty anti Tory so the idea that it is Scotland's fault that Labour can't seem to beat Tories doesn't make much sense. In the Scottish Parliament the parties are used to working with other parties on issues. Two of the SNP terms were minority administrations where they worked with other parties on a non formal basis. Labour don't need 50 Scottish Labour MPs to outvote the Tories they just need to learn to work with other like minded parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 03:35 PM

Kinda getting used to stubborn nationalists,
hell-bent on getting their own way at any cost,
saying "don't blame us for your problems"..

.. funny that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 09 May 21 - 02:59 PM

The UK normally gets the gvt England votes for. Blair's gvts had majorities without the Scottish members. You can't blame the Scots because the English aren't returning the gvts you want. Besides as per the Milliband election the SNP would likely offer to work with Labour on an issue by issue basis. Milli band's reaction was lukewarm at best at the idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:59 PM

by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't blame the scots for voting as they think fit. That it makes things more difficult for Labour is an unfortunate, unavoidable side effect, but that is Labour-in-England's problem to address. They have, somehow, to become more appealing. Whether you are pro or anti Corbyn, the 2016 certainly showed an appetite for change. The vaccine story has undoubtedly made people more cautious and reluctant for change, but that will not last forever. It is a matter of finding the changes that people want.

It is worth noting that while the name 'Conservative' has not changed, the party has re-invented itself quite a few times. I find it a stretch to imagine Thatcher agreeing to the furlough, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:26 PM

i thought this was an interesting programme and made me feel much more positive about left of centre politics. it's a shame that too many good labour people - like john mcdonell and many others are being sidelined.
by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party. they have always attacked the tories and got them securely under control up there. if labour offered more positive choices and if we weren't so much more susceptible to tory and the media nonsense labour could do much better south of the border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V0sZ6RkS3g&ab_channel=OwenJones

guest interview - John McDonnell


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:09 AM

Backstabbing treachorous liberals conning us that a tactical vote for them
would keep the tories out..

.. and Scots Nationalists..

Those are the main dire factors I blame for fatally wounding Labour,
even before Corbyn became the fall guy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 21 - 08:53 AM

Let's not forget it was Scotland that already severely f@cked up Labour's chances of ever again winning government,
when the SNP mopped up at a previous election..

Every Corbyn/Starmer failure since is just another nail in Labour's coffin..

I'm 62, it would be nice to see the tories kicked out before I'm 70..

But that is a futile dream unless some form of progressive party
get's it's act together and starts thrashing tories at elections...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 May 21 - 07:42 AM

I can fully understand anyone in Scotland wanting Independence.

However I am also aware that Scottish Independence will mean the removal of 59 MP's who historically have numbered few Conservatives which would also mean that we are unlikely to ever have a Labour Government in England and Wales again .............. and if Wales go for independence ....?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:47 AM

cheers steve, the system for holyrood elections is specifically designed to prevent one party having an overall majority, yet the snp have been good at winning to ensure a seemingly permanent dominance. however, as you say they do seem to be 'stuck' at around 50% for any independence vote- not good enough to be confident of a harmonious future no matter their strengths and the obvious nonsense of continuous tory misrule. labour scotland have done themselves no favours by getting into bed with scottish tories and reducing themselves to carping at anything the snp try to achieve. popular snp policies should be aspirations for the labour party - no trident, free this and that etc, a more nationalist outlook and an atmosphere of caring, engaged competence. there are many things that they (and the greens) should agree on - it should be a priority to make some alliance with scotland...to have a refendum with the promise of as much co-operation, friendship and mutual respect as is possible should scots make the choice to leave the uk. labour do often talk about federalism without really making it clear what this means - maybe nicola sturgeon and andy burnham could get together and work something out


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:27 AM

That's a good post, pete. We've got to be optimistic. Sturgeon is beginning to worry me though. If I lived in Scotland I'd vote for independence in any referendum. But though she can muster a majority in Parliament with the greens, because of bias in the electoral system in Scotland which favours the SNP she might just have slightly the wrong idea about her backing in the country for a referendum, let alone her prospects of winning it. Sir John Curtice calculated that independence-minded voters may represent just a smidgeon over 50% of the electorate. She might be better off letting Boris ban her attempts to get a referendum and moaning vigorously in a state of victimhood than ploughing on and losing the vote. There's no way that she could claim that a vote with a tiny majority, taking into account that there would be a lot of stay-at-homes, would represent "the will of the people." We've been here before, haven't we? I'm not sure that she's quite the canny operator I used to take her for...

On another tack, a nice bit of royal corruption is now rearing its head..."Haven't met Putin since 2003" my arse. Does he think we don't know all about the bush telegraph?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:06 AM

And, for John's delectation, Sir Keir Unity has harmonised the party by sacking Angela Rayner from a post she was frozen out of by Sir Unity's office during the election campaign. An inexplicable and divisive decision if ever there was one. The bungled campaign which failed to recognise and challenge the changed Tory party was entirely his fault, and now he sacks a popular and competent working-class woman. Let's hope that in the reshuffle he can (a) find her a top job, (b) he'll hope that she will accept gracefully. You couldn't make this up. I ask you again: who really are the splitters in the party? What a bloody cock-up...

You ask who else? Well let's look at a couple of those election-winning mayoral candidates for starters...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 May 21 - 05:30 AM

thursday's elections had some hopeful signs. winners like andy burnham, nicola sturgeon, sadiq khan, welsh labour, 'radical' preston, and the good performance by the greens (including my county councillor) none of these bodies could be considered dangerously left-wing and policies they support like green new deal, better deals with europe, protected human rights, no trident, good green jobs, PR, increased union participation, free elderly care, free student fees etc etc are all policies that should fit easily into a progressive labour manifesto without scaring either of the 2 groups in the party. given that starmer was elected as a competent manager to unite the party it's about time he got serious with the job. or leave it to someone who can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 21 - 05:22 AM

I repeat, for the benefit of those who didn’t get it the first time around...

”We will have to agree to continue disagreeing,...it makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends...over things completely out of my control.”

And...

But as I said earlier, I’m done.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:57 AM

I think the voters of hartlepool voted more on personality than policy, but a bit more complicated than that because they also voted on their own slef interest rather than their perceived national interst.
one voter said well if he does good things for hartlepool that will do me[ so never mind the rest of the uk,+
it is interesting. so despite boris is a proven liar they believe him and do not trust starmer, this is personality politics. i do not like starmer but i believe he is honest yet he looks shifty. johnson is imo untrustworthy yet voters like him, plus they think borishas done a good jobwith covid . its like the mad hatters tea party


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:49 PM

"Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE."

So what do you think has been demonstrated this week? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:12 PM

Sorry Dave, you’re fighting the wrong people. Your enemies, and the enemies of poor, disadvantaged, disenfranchised people, are the Conservative & Unionist Party and its (mostly non-dom) billionaire donors/controllers. Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE.

But, as I said earlier, I’m done - it’s Saturday evening and there’s a good drama series we’re watching on Sky Atlantic. ;-).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:09 PM

You can barely even call it fighting..

But mostly just sat up strait-laced on a high horse,
sanctimoniously tut tutting at the unmanageable mass of unenlightened plebs..

That is one thing guaranteed to piss off the working class

In too many ways, Labour have become this generations equivalent of the Mary Whitehouse brigade...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 03:49 PM

We are not fighting the wrong battles, John. We are fighting with the wrong weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 03:22 PM

We will have to agree to continue disagreeing, Steve and Dave. It makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends or sleep over things completely out of my control.

G’night y’all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:55 PM

Theresa May?
You're welcome to her ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:41 PM

While I was posting the news that Starmer has sacked Angela Rayner landed in my in box. Next Labour party chair and deputy leader? My money is on Theresa May...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:24 PM

I forgot to say and should let you know that you are correct, Nigel. Credit where credit is due. If you hadn't gathered, yes, I agree with your analysis. Any other version of the Labour party could have wiped the floor with Bozzer. We need a major overhaul.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:13 PM

I have thought long and hard about this. I am sure it is the centrist/right of the Labour party (aka Tory light) that have caused this rift. The realisation made me resign my membership and I shall not rejoin until the party gets back to its grass roots. I can see your point about stopping the rifts, John, but what are left of centre people like me and Steve supposed to do? Give up and roll over, leaving us with 2 Tory parties, or fight for what believe are the true Labour party values? Starmer was shipped in by the right, assured a safe seat and will continue to be ineffective for as long as he is supported. I will continue to vote for Labour and against this awful regime but I cannot condone capitulation to the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 01:21 PM

(Ignoring the unnecessary nonsense in your first paragraph...)

600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader. There is very little doubt that the overwhelming majority of those people were left-wing in sentiment. That should have at least given the party seniors the message that a change of direction was sorely needed. That a new enthusiasm was in the air. To them (including me), the old ways since the demise of Blair's New Labour were a failure. Corbyn represented something radically new. That message did not get across. Instead, and in spite of the hope provided by the 2017 result, the party bigwigs turned on him and killed off that message, a gift to the Tories and right-wing press. I'm sorry you can't see this. You appear to be saying that all principle should be ditched in order to ditch the Tories. We were saying that it was time for principle to regain its place. Maybe you've forgotten how principle, in tbe face of constant personal and sordid attackes, almost but not quite turned things round in 2017 in a very surprising way. Another message that didn't get across to the Yvette cabal. My view is that Jeremy, ultimately, might not have been the right person. But begod we've gone right back to New Labour-lite. And the long knives are still out for lefties in the party. And as you seem to be saying, there is no clear way out of this. It's a shambles, and the people in charge are people with the same sentiment as yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 21 - 12:32 PM

On the charisma front, I thought Andy Burnham's comments interesting. As he makes clear, this would be a long way off yet, but I suspect he could do it.


He was asked if he would still like to lead the party one day, and he said that he was not even an MP, and that his focus was on Greater Manchester. That is the standard response for someone in Burnham’s position to a question like this.

But then he went on:

In the distant future, if the party were ever to feel that it needed here, I’m here and they should get in touch.

When it was put to Burnham that that sounded as if he were still open to the idea of being Labour leader, he replied:

I have tried twice to be the leader and it’s never worked so I’m not under any illusions, if you like. It’s never worked for me in the past. I feel I’m in the best job in the world.

But I’m here to help the Labour party, if they need it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:31 AM

sorry back woodsman , but i think the voters are rejecting keir starmer he lacks charisma and has not been effective as a leader of opposition. johnson appears to have something that appeals to voters,that is not corbyns fault, but when cummings leaks do not bring johnson down, then starmer certainly will not, corbyn did bring in younger members, starmers move to the middle ground has not worked, because people are voting not on policy but on charisma. johnson does nothing for me but he clearly turns some voters on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:20 AM

Since you clearly don’t grasp a simple, but utterly undeniable fact, Steve, I’ll repeat it and keep repeating it until the stubborn, “I’m a teacher, nobody can tell me anything” part of you finally gets it - Party Members don’t elect governments, voters elect governments.

The voters rejected Corbyn’s version of Labour (for whatever reasons, and I believe there are many, including the public splits in the party), and they are currently rejecting, and will continue to reject for as long as the party displays the current level of disunity and disloyalty, Starmer’s version. And there isn’t a cat-in-hell’s chance that voters will elect a Labour government - the very thing the people of the U.K. desperately need to right the shameful wrongs of this past eleven years - unless Labour MPs, party workers, and party members stop publicly pissing, moaning, and working against their own party.

Members don’t ‘own’ the party, nor do party workers, ‘activists’, or even MPs. The party is owned by everyone who gives it their trust and votes Labour. And those who undermine the party because it’s not their personal ‘flavour’, or the ‘right kind’ of Labour, do it a grave disservice. More importantly, they do a grave disservice to those who need a Labour government the most.

So carry on, be my guest, but be prepared for Tory rule for a very long time to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 09:44 AM

You memory seems to be letting you down, John. Ever since Corbyn was elected leader, the senior right-wing members of the party - let's call them the Yvette Cooper faction - not only refused to work with him, turning down shadow cabinet posts, etc., but routinely briefed against him. A number of them gleefully jumped on the utterly bogus "Corbyn is antisemitic" bandwagon. They didn't give a sod about the fact that they were helping to wreck future election prospects. They were ideologues with one-track minds, with the aim of purging the party of lefties. Jeremy did much better than expected in 2017, lest you forget. But those right-wingers fought the war of attrition for the next two years, supported by the right-wing press, leading to the disaster of 2019. That is exactly what they wanted. So who really were the splitters? They did all that while half a million people, nearly all lefties, had joined the party. Wow. And in the first few weeks of leading the party, Starmer "purged" the party of Corbyn on spurious grounds and he sacked Becky Long-Bailey, ten times the person he is, also on spurious grounds. Two inconvenient lefties out of the way...

I've been a trade unionist for fifty years. Going right back to the early seventies, my union, The NUT, was riven by two factions, what you might now call the centre left and the hard left. The constant wail of the former was that the union "needed unity," which, to them, meant purging the party of lefties (I received two warning letters from the General Secretary, Fred Jarvis, myself). Those who regard themselves as mainstream in the party who "call for unity" always have that agenda. We're right, the lefties are wrong, let's fight the lefties whatever it takes. Tar and feather them, demonise them, undermine them at every turn, get the Mail on your side. I've seen it time and time again. 'Twas ever thus, and I hear an echo of that in your post.

One of the hardest of the hard lefties in east London was my friend Blair Peach. He was murdered by a policeman in 1979. He also was warned by the union establishment, many times. These days, the union gives an annual Blair Peach award to the teacher who has done the most to promote racial harmony. Funny, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 09:04 AM

So labour is doomed to fulfilling the role of a barely effective opposition party;
going through the motions of holding the government to account..

A function some Britons still regard
as an essential component of British government..

But which corrupt Machiavellian goodtime geezer Boris haughtily dismisses as "playing politics"..

It's blatantly obvious his majority seat government has complete contempt for the existence of a properly functioning opposition party,

Perhaps, the concept of opposition is eventually becoming so marginalized and eroded, considered no more than a trifling petty irritant by the dominating tories,
that it will eventually be abolished altogether.

And if that did happen, probably most of the British public would not give a monkey's...

Perhaps old etonian toff history swots might consider some semblance of opposition worth preserving
as an institutional relic.
Part of the rich fabric of political museum traditions...???

How easy is it to slip into a one party state without the population caring...?????

.. and with too many of them probably even thinking it's a great idea...

Hail Boris..

.. until he is stabbed in the back and usurped by the next, perhaps much worse,
dastardly villainous tory leadership challenger.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 21 - 08:39 AM

In an Independant article today, John Rntoul write:

But overall, Labour has moved forwards and upwards from the pit of its worst postwar election result. Professor Sir John Curtice, the one-person national institution, has calculated that the English local elections would have translated into a Conservative lead in a vote across Great Britain of 6 to 7 percentage points. In other words, closing the 12-point lead at the general election by about half.

When the BBC put these numbers into its House of Commons model, it suggested that Johnson’s 80-seat majority would be all but wiped out. These figures are for illustrative purposes only, as they say on those pension-fund statements, and the new boundaries that will take effect in June 2023 will make the next election even harder for Labour to win, but it is not an impossible goal.


Rentoul was never a Corbyn supporter, and has generally backed Starmer, so I accept this is not an unbiased couple of sentences. But if John Curtice has been correctly quoted, progress in terms of electability has been made. Whether that has been at the cost of becoming Tory-lite is a matter of personal judgement.
   

Labour should in normal circumstances be doing much better, and to succeed in future it will have to do so. It will have to win in England, which it rarely does. So I would say that there is still a mountain to climb after the 2019 results. But Labour has made a little progress despite Hartlepool.

I think Kipling has it right about meeting "with Triumph and Disaster/And treating both imposters just the same."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 May 21 - 08:07 AM

BWM - i don't know about the tories demonstrating unity in public. when johnson got the job the more sensible of the party's MPs were ruthlessly purged. almost at a stroke the tories became an english nationalist, brexit, johnson personality cult. and what happened to those principled voices like rory stewart, ken clarke, dominic grieve et al? theresa may? all the tory party members with a conscience (of sorts) who mistrust and dislike johnson and don't favour brexit? all these people seem to have disappeared - probably to their boardroom jobs or writing unreadable memoirs. my suspicion is that tories aren't really interested in politics per se - it's just a game that results in preserving their gains and protecting their perceived social status. on the left we are cursed with giving a shit about stuff and will fight about matters of principle- particularly about what is fair and humane. now , socialists are out of favour in the labour party and are being told to shut up and get in line by the very people who did no shutting up or getting in line - in fact doing all they could to do undermine idealistic progress in the party (see 2017 manifesto) i don't have any answers to this - i've left the party and while i always vote anti-tory it is very sad to see what labour has become - splitters! doomed to give a shit.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:23 AM

Yes, MM, Nigel is spot-on about the divisions in the Labour Party wrecking its election-potential, something I’ve been trying to tell the Corbynista-Fanbois for a long time, and for which I’ve been harangued mercilessly, both here and elsewhere. It’s high time they stopped fighting each other, and united to do what the Labour Party exists for - to fight the worst Tory government in living memory.

None are so blind as they who think they’re so clever they have nothing to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 08 May 21 - 06:52 AM

A valid point from Nigel Parsons that Labour “would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit” . It makes the Labour Party seem more dishonest than the Tories - “Boris Johnson is an honest liar and at least you get a laugh out of him ”!
I detect the voice of Boris in some of the anti-EU propaganda recently archived by the EU
"The EU has archived all of the “Euromyths” printed in UK media – and it makes for some disturbing reading":
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading-108942/
(the blue clicky thing doesn't seem to work)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 21 - 06:13 AM

The problem is not so much Starmer, Steve, as Corbyn-Fanbois busting a gut to undermine him and inflame division in the party.

The one thing the Tories get right, perhaps the only thing IMO, is that they demonstrate unity in public, even when there are rifts in private. Pursuing an internal war in public in order to de-stabilise the democratically-elected leader is a sure way to guarantee electoral failure. And pursuing a war, in full public view, to push for the reinstatement to the leadership of someone whose ineptitude brought the party to its worst GE defeat in 85 years must qualify as the stupidest kind of stupid.

I’ve said before that I have no great regard for Starmer and I won’t shed any tears if he goes. Replace him if you must, but with the right person - any sensible suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:29 AM

Whilst I think that he's bad enough to justify a vote for almost anyone else, you are right about Labour, Nigel. I tried to tell folks a year ago that this guy is a reactor, not a doer, and a charisma-free born loser. There's been no talk of dumping him, and I suppose we're going to have to get trashed in another election before we can ditch him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:21 AM

getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.
Nor is focussing on his human failings a reason to vote for an opposition which does not appear to have clear policies, would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit, and is so divided that it is uncertain whether they would have been able to come to any decisions on how to deal with Covid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 May 21 - 05:10 AM

The Lib Dems did really badly in Hartlepool. Likewise in my consituency they do really poorly now. This used to be, until less than a decade ago, a strong Lib Dem seat and had been since the early 1960s. The SNP took the Westminster seat from them and now it is Tory. They only got 6% of the vote in our constituency vote on Thursday's Scottish elections! They have managed so far to keep all their Scottish constituency seats from 2016 but I think it is mainly down to local loyalty. So very localised. They were though almost pipped to it by the SNP in Shetland which would have been unthinkable in times past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 21 - 04:21 AM

Adolph Hitler got they job done as well, Nigel. I'm not saying Boris is like him. Simply that getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:40 AM

is anyone asking why did the liberals do so badly in hartlepool?349 votes


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 21 - 12:18 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000vw3q/dateline-london-08052021


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 06:14 PM

Well my dad was a Labour councillor in Radcliffe in the sixties. My mum and dad worked for the Labour Party in elections, as indeed did I, in my case from the age of twelve, collecting numbers for Labour at our local polling station. My grandad was a lifelong Tory, who worked all his life in Salford docks. He was also a cradle Catholic, and the priests from the pulpits in Prestwich and Whitefield told him and his ilk to vote Tory. Tory, Queen, God and country. His son, my uncle, wore the bearskin at Buckingham Palace and changed the guards many times and all that. That's how it was. I've voted in every single election that I've been qualified to vote in, ever since I was eighteen. I'm very interested in politics, I come from a piss-poor working class background, and I know only too well how Tories, over many decades, have enabled the repression of the working classes whilst simultaneously enriching themselves. If we can't stand up to this (and just think how we got all those zero-hours contracts, shite pay, job insecurity, inhuman benefits system...) the working classes are doomed. But I have faith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:52 PM

i was a labour voter wheni lived in the uk, i have voted the same way as my parents did .my father did 30 days hard labour in prison for exercising his right to free speech criticising the royal family in the 1930s , there was no political ignorance in my family. ok rain canine


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:12 PM

Rain Dog

I often heard Labour voters in the UK say that they were voting Labour in the same way as their parents always did but I never heard anyone say it out of “political ignorance” . Rather it was because their parents and grandparents had gone through the "hungry thirties" and passed on their bitter experiences .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 21 - 03:58 PM

Dave:
He gets the job done. His sexual morality (or lack thereof) has no real effect on the job he is doing.
What the payment arrangements were for his flat, and I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, again do not prevent him doing his job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 01:15 PM

Btw, I fully acknowledge that I do not understand how people still stand behind this government but accept that is my problem, not theirs. I try to understand but to date no-one has explained how a lying, cheating philanderer like Boris can be so popular. Can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:28 AM

”I am bemused that some of you seem to have the ability to get inside the minds of others and know the reasons why they voted the way they did.”

No, RD, we don’t do that. But we do see and hear the mind-control techniques and diversionary tactics of Brexiteers and the Tories, some overt, some subtle, but all aimed at persuading **a certain kind** of voter to vote against their own best interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM

So, RD, what you’re saying is that your opinion is that other people shouldn’t be allowed to express their opinion unless it’s an opinion you approve of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:14 AM

Why the personal attack, Rain Dog? If you believe your previous posts were not vexacious, that last one was nothing but until the last paragraph. A good way to get a thread closed and little else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 21 - 11:11 AM

"What's next? Asking the mods to stop me from posting? That is the usual tactic here isn't it?"

No it isn't. It happens rarely. I can think of two people in the sixteen or so years I've been here, and I'm not even sure that I asked the mods to stop them posting. Mists of time and all that. Dunno about anyone else here. By the way, those two were both far-right plants.

"I don't like the way some of you denigrate and insult those people who dare to vote for parties or ideas that you don't like."

We call it "democracy."

"I am bemused that those of you with mind reading abilities were surprised by the Hartlepool result."

"Those of us?" Pray tell, which one of us expressed the remotest bit of surprise at the result? Au contraire, I saw this coming weeks ago and you can bet your bottom dollar that so did the others posting to this thread. You make things up just to knock them down. Some call it straw man. Perhaps your favourite aunt is called Sally...


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