BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:31 AM

"The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax."

What an arrogant, thoughtless, uncaring and callous statement that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:04 AM

Income tax payments are concentrated amongst those with the largest incomes. The 10% of income taxpayers with the largest incomes contribute over 60% of income tax receipts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 07:58 AM

The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 06:59 AM

Surely if this government wants to be seen as a government of low taxation the most equitable way to lower tax is to raise the tax threshold.

Although this will not benefit the very poor, more people would benefit if the tax threshold was raised from £12,751 to a higher figure of (for example) £16,000 or £18,000.

The rich would benefit just the same as the not so well off. Not ideal for the very low income people I realise but better than cutting the top rate of taxation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:13 AM

I’ll try that again - typed in the middle of the night during a bout of insomnia. The brain was very tired but wouldn’t go to sleep! Would a Mod please delete my post of 24 Sep 22 - 09.59 PM above?

The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 5% on their earnings at Addtional Tax Rate, £150,001 and above, and 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,751 to £50,270.

Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,571 to £50,270.

Those earning less than £12,751 don’t pay tax, and they will see no benefit at all.

During a Cost of Living crisis, and at a time when energy bills have doubled this year v. last year, do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit to those who need it the least, a lesser benefit to middle-earners, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Surely, even an inveterate nit-picker can see it, or are you so blinded by Tory dogma and propaganda that this inequity is lost on you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:59 PM

”Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances'”

The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 6% - a reduction of 5% on the Addtional Tax Rate, and 1% on the Basic Rate.

Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on the Basic Rate.

Those earning less than £12,751 will see no benefit at all.

Do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit from tax cuts to those who need them the least, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Are you so blinded by Tory propaganda and dogma?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:36 PM

Perhaps contemplate this too from t/the Guardian editorial today: The Guardian view on the Tory trickle up policies: redistributing to the rich

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:17 PM

If you google "half the tax cuts go to the richest five percent" you'll get lots of backup for that, Nigel, including from the Resolution Foundation. Go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:03 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:55 PM

Half of the tax cuts announced are going to the richest five percent of the population.

Any background on that claim?
Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:02 PM

You said it, Bonzo. He's been brought up in an entitled bubble and he doesn't understand anything about anything. His ideological tax project is doomed to failure - and I think you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:37 PM

Kwarteng, who was educated at a good prep school, Eton and Cambridge, has argued that many supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement and critics of British imperialism have "a very kind of cartoon-like view" of the past, arguing:

So within that time and geography there's a huge amount of variety, different cultures and different time periods and getting a sensitivity to that is hugely important and I think a lot of the debate around Black Lives Matter and imperialism or colonialism has a very kind of cartoon-like view of what was happening over centuries across a quarter of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:15 PM

So you strongly object to transparency that allows people to make the decisions to boycott companies and businesses connected to self-serving, tories with their snouts in the trough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:45 PM

The planned rise in corporation tax does not go ahead and it is described as a cut.

The planned rise in excise duty does not go ahead and it is described as frozen. That is if it is mentioned at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:11 PM

They contribute most in taxation!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:55 PM

Half of the tax cuts announced are going to the richest five percent of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:53 PM

”Because it's lefty claptrap”

Sounds more like a sound Patriotic principle to me, that tax raised on taxpayers’ money paid to contractor-companies should stay in the UK to be used by the government for the benefit of the population of the UK.

I thought you Tory Arse-Lickers and Flag-shaggers prided yourselves on your Patriotism?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:30 PM

Because it's lefty claptrap, and will never be law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:06 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:05 PM

I don't agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:05 PM

.... through the hull next to the keel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:57 PM

> Why?

So the money has a better chance of staying in this country. It's better to bail the water out of a boat than to knock a drain-hole in the keel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:46 PM

Quite simple, Bonzo. If they are benefitting from government funds, they should be contributing to the fund and accountable to the state

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:14 PM

Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 12:01 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 11:12 AM

It should be a requirement that, where possible, companies doing government work are registered here in the UK for tax purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 11:03 AM

"There needs to be a change in company law so that all directors and others with significant control have to declare their own and closely related family members membership of political parties and all corporate or individual party donations, That way we can take a first step forward towards transparency of intent with regards to public sector procurement."

Absolute lefty bollocks, one's political affiliations are as private as an election ballot paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:13 AM

There needs to be a change in company law so that all directors and others with significant control have to declare their own and closely related family members membership of political parties and all corporate or individual party donations, That way we can take a first step forward towards transparency of intent with regards to public sector procurement.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:04 AM

I agree that the individual cost of those books is very high. I am not sure how much of a discount you could reasonably get for a bulk buy either, so my estimate of getting to around £3 from the £15 or so individual price could be wide of the mark.

Employers have a 'duty of care' as a legal responsibility. It is generally thought these days that includes the mental health of staff as well as their physical health. If the organisation believes it does, it will look at all sorts of things. For example, my last employer mainly did it by placing a contract with an agency you could contact to discuss mental health concerns. It also subsidised membership of nearby gyms and things like that, under the umbrella 'duty of care' idea on the physical side.

Yes, you can certainly argue that should all be coming out of the individual's salary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:42 AM

You may be correct to say that colouring books are helpful to "de-stress" you may be correct to say that £900 for 300 books is cost effective.

However I would say that individuals should buy such things out of their own salary. I would also add that some of these these books retail at £16 each.

https://calmoverchaos.co.uk/collections/all

I would also say that this is an abuse of government funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:28 AM

I think there is certainly a lot to question in the department's expenditure, but the colouring books may or not be one of them. Much depends on the context.

My daughter works in HR for a private firm and my daughter-in-law for MacMillian's Nurses. Both have a role in trying to ensure the wellbeing of the staff in the organisation. Personally, such colouring books do nothing for me, but I know people who say they find them helpful to de-stress.   If that 900 is say a bulk order of 300 books to be used throughout the department, it may be one of the more reasonable expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:17 AM

Many of us have been appalled by the cavalier attitude of ministers over the past few years.

The latest revelation relates to our new leader during her sojourn in the Foreign Office. It is alleged that amongst other dubious expenditure the department spent £900 with a company called Calm over Chaos which produces colouring books for adults.

I had a quick scan on their website and frankly the colouring books are, in my opinion, shite ................. and VERY expensive, but why on earth is a government department buying such things.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/23/liz-truss-questions-foreign-office-spending-hair-norwich-city

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 01:34 AM

The times we are living in hey? The Tories finally admitting that Corbyn was right about borrowing and borrowing. The Tories giving up on balancing the books. Spend today and let those in the future figure out how it is to he paid back.

Remains to be seen if this policy will work out or not. Now that Boris has gone the Tories have elected a Tory as leader. Had to happen sometime I suppose. A case of be careful of what you wish for, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 05:37 PM

Sorry, Bonzo old chap, but the Tories have been in charge for twelve long years and have presided over the worst growth, just about, in the western world, as well as flatlining productivity. They have never demonstrated that they have the first clue as to the answer. They are now working directly against the Bank of England (who at least have teams of seasoned economists, not Truss blow-in ideologues). The markets, for what they're worth, have seen the threadbare and gambling nature of the latest approach and the pound is tanking. There is no international confidence in this government. You can't get growth if no-one has the confidence to invest in the country, and you can't get growth if the mass of people (not just the super-rich) haven't got the money to go and spend in shops. Retail spending plummeted in August. Just you wait for Christmas. And the government have not put money in most people's pockets, at least nowhere near enough to give them any more than just being able to plough a bit into their energy bills, then go along to the nearest food bank. What we've seen today is right-wing ideology and Tory hubris writ large. We're stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 05:15 PM

Nor is scrapping regulation self-evidently a good idea. The right-wing tale is that it is a block on business, preventing them investing, being more efficient, or some such.

A more honest assessment it that a regulation trades off the different interests of various parties: business, workers, consumers, taxpayers, nearby residents and others, as appropriate. There may be a case to balance these differently. Scrapping them, though says there is only one relevant interested party and that is business. Without a regulation, the other interested parties have no appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 12:31 PM

"Lower taxes for everyone"

Not true, Bonzo. Those who do not pay tax - ie the lowest paid - do not benefit at all. As ever, the Tories and you are completely out of touch with the reality of real poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 12:08 PM

Those who work full time on the national living wage will really be lifted out of the cost of living crisis with their 98 pence per week tax reduction - but will have to wait until April, by which time the tories with their noses in the trough will have pushed inflation up way past that. Surely those who can't be bothered to get a £150,000 a year job should have their tax cuts taken away from them so that their superiors can use it to gorge themselves on Foie Gras.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 11:59 AM

Perhaps, if we actually get growth.

In the meantime the already well off are the only ones who benefit, apart from the immediate discount of energy which will have to repay, possibly with interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 11:32 AM

The new UK Growth Plan will benefit everyone across the whole country. Lower taxes for everyone, more infrastructure, more investment and less regulation. Growth will help raise wages, create jobs, lift incomes and generate more tax revenues

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 08:59 AM

Well it looks like our lives have been well and truly ****ed by the tories. I hope that those who will be getting the 5% reduction on the top end of their earning will put their money where their mouth is and force, and pay for, their older relatives to go into long stay care so that care home workers benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will only use public toilets instead of their own bathrooms so toilet attendants and cleaners benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will drink dozens of cups of coffee from coffee shops and at least 5 pints of beer every day from local pubs so that hospitality workers will benefit from trickle down economics. I hope they will eat twice or three times as much food every day so retail workers benefit from trickle down economics. Also, when the excess alcohol, caffeine and the resulting clinical obesity causes health problems that they will not leech of tax payers and use the NHS to keep them alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 08:22 PM

I've been a bit poorly for the last three weeks (and still have some way to go, though I'm on the mend). I heard a chap on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning talking about his dreadful experience in A&E. He had a ten-hour wait before he was seen by anyone.

Well this is what happened to me. In the early morning of 3 September, out of the blue, I was struck down by a vicious fever that lasted three or four hours. By morning light, my legs started to discolour and were beginning to swell. I knew what this was because I've had the same thing three times before since the start of the pandemic - cellulitis again.

If you start with cellulitis and have the accompanying fever, the advice on the NHS website is to go to A&E. There's the danger that the infection will spread rapidly though the blood system and cause sepsis, which is life-threatening. I arrived at A&E at North Devon District Hospital at 2pm, an hour's drive from our house. The waiting room was hot, stuffy and noisy, quite crowded, and the seats were incredibly uncomfortable. I was seen by a triage nurse at 7pm, a cursory lookover to take my blood pressure and temperature and to confirm who I am.


At 8.15pm I was seen by a doctor, who was lovely, but I was with her for less than five minutes. She prescribed the antibiotics I needed, then said that she would like to do a blood test. The result would take at least an hour to arrive. I told her that I was at the end of my tether, so she agreed that I could have the blood test at my GP surgery on the Monday morning. We got home at 9.45pm. I'm no softie, but the whole experience that day was traumatising in the extreme. A sick bloke in a hot, stuffy room for over six hours on a seat made in hell.

Since then I've had to go back to the hospital five times. The first time, the wait was almost as long, but at least the room was comfortable and the staff very attentive.

The staff at that hospital are angels. They are run off their feet but they are unfailingly wonderful with their patients. My trauma had nothing to do with them. But they are overworked, stressed out and totally knackered. We can't run our health service like this. Twelve years ago when Mrs Steve had issues with cataracts, there was no way that anyone would wait for treatment for more than 18 weeks. When my back needed surgery, I was operated on within ten weeks of first reporting to my GP. Same with my dodgy shoulder when my rotator cuff needed mending.

I don't know what's gone so wrong in the last ten or twelve years. I need Starmer to tell me. I need him to tell me why schools are crumbling away. I need him to tell me why the NHS isn't coping. But where is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:18 PM

Well I just watched Question Time. I don't like Wes Streeting, but bechrist he was dynamic, on the ball, well-prepared and confident. He could well be our next man. I also thought that Layla Moran, who I dislike even more, was equally impressive. Of course, she wasn't confronting party politics tonight. Probably not quite days of hope, but a glimmer nonetheless...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:42 AM

There will be full employment by then. They are already asking for volunteers to run the NHS. In 2 years time it will be compulsory for anyone not in employment to be a doctor or nurse. The dividing line will be if you have more than 4 GCSEs. All because we do not have enough staff - Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:03 AM

Bad grammar and punctuation caused by trying to do this on an iPad as I sit in the sun...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 09:01 AM

On a lighter note (as long as you like black humour), from todays Daily Mash in a piece telling various groups of people how today's interest rate rise will affect them:

"Aspiring homeowner

You’re f**ked. That deposit you were close to saving isn’t enough, and you can’t afford the monthly payments anyway. You’re at mum and dad’s for another year. On the bright side you’ll earn more interest, house prices will fall and you’ll be able to afford somewhere great in two years. Only problem is you’ll have no job by then."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 08:50 AM

But look what happened last time a minority party wheedled itself into government (or at least into a position of being Cameron's lackeys). They destroyed themselves to such a degree that they set back any chance of being in a position to promote PR for years, if not decades. We might as well settle for what we have now and keep the argument going. The LibDems showed that they are not part of the solution. I'm simply not seeing a groundswell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 07:07 AM

The only way out I can see at the moment is proportional representation. Whenever anyone slightly left of centre puts their head above the parapet, the right (or the centrists in newspeak) call on their media mouthpieces to shoot them down and a good portion of the electorate keep falling for it. PR may not be perfect but if it stops the never ending push to the right, it will do me. Let us hope that the next parliament is hung and to get the minority parties on their side, whoever holds most cards makes PR a reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 06:40 AM

The time-honoured clarion call of the right in both the Labour Party and in many trade unions is for "unity." This is always code for saying that if the left won't shut up we might have to kick them out or otherwise sideline them. Well there's a very strong undercurrent of feeling among millions of Labour voters of the party being there for the working people, the disadvantaged, the exploited and the undeserving poor. But for decades we've seen the gap between rich and poor get ever wider, especially under Blair. We've seen Labour embracing the Tory shitting-on-the-unions policies. We've seen Starmer instructing LABOUR MPs (!) not to join picket lines in perfectly legitimate and justified disputes. The upshot is zero-hours, non-recognition of unions in workplaces, gig economy, fake self-employment for millions (who still actually work for other people but with no holiday pay, maternity pay, sick pay...), no job security and the scrapping of workplace rights.

Well I don't know where Starmer and his anodyne lackeys are in all this. I'm sick of seeing "tactics," "We're listening to the people" and the sidelining of the left. It has never worked and it won't work next time. There has been no bold attempt to confront populism and it will be there as strong as ever at the next election - and the left, the true grass roots of a Labour Party that has disastrously allowed itself to become part of the establishment, will also be back. 'Twas ever thus, and, as usual, the left, the people who actually do care about ordinary people, will, as ever, be blamed for "splitting the party." So next time you hear that clarion call for unity, don't forget to prefix it by seeing it as "I'm a charlatan - let's have unity!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 06:16 AM

"Liz Truss is not listening to the IFS."

Other economists are available though you would not guess that after listening to the BBC. At times it seems like Paul Johnson is a BBC employee. Next thing you know, people will be saying he is paid too much, it is a waste of the licence fee, blah blah blah.

"Liz Truss is not listening to the big noises who used to work for Cuadrilla,"

Hard to know who she is listening to on this matter. Maybe the current big noises at Cuadrilla and their investors. But then she says "I’m clear we’ll go ahead with fracking in areas where there’s local support." Local support? Unlikely to receive that from many of her party supporters.
I think it will be a long, long while before we see any output as a result of fracking.

"Along with her new energy price cap and the tax cuts, both of which are designed to benefit mainly the better off"

Well yes the tax cuts will benefit the rich and so will the energy price cap. I don't see the sense in the tax cuts myself. The energy price cap is another matter. Those with bigger properties (and more than one property] will benefit more than the average person. I think capping the price at source is the least worse solution. Means testing leads to people missing out even when they need the help. There is also the costs involved in working out who should get the help.

There are not any easy solutions to the problems we are facing now. The costs involved in trying to solve the problems is going to have a long term effect on future governments, whichever party is in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 05:25 AM

Liz Truss is not listening to the Bank of England, and she and the Bank seem to be working against each other. Liz Truss is not listening to the IFS, which is warning that excessive and expensive borrowing and tax cuts will far from guarantee economic growth. Liz Truss is not listening to the big noises who used to work for Cuadrilla, who are saying loud and clear that fracking in the UK is not only not an answer to anything but is actually non-viable. It seems that charging on without listening is her means of asserting herself as a Strong Leader in the eyes of the public. Thatcher did that par excellence, and Starmer's bending with the wind and "listening to the people" is looking pusillanimous in the extreme. These bastard ideologues know exactly what they're doing, don't they?

Along with her new energy price cap and the tax cuts, both of which are designed to benefit mainly the better off, and as with lifting the cap on bankers' bonuses, we can expect an attack on Universal Credit claimants tomorrow. Well they don't vote Tory anyway. And Truss's boozy mate Coffey is talking about scrapping the sugary drinks levy and the anti-obesity drive (of all the people who should be doing that!), as well as telling GPs, without telling them how to do it, that they must offer appointments to all their patients within two weeks. Dunno about round your way but it's five to six weeks round here. Maybe we'll all have to take our strokes and cancer scares to the nearest Boots from now on. Tomorrow we have to hear Kwasi with his mini-budget. I should think that all sentient beings, by the end of tomorrow, will conclude that Mrs Mopp would make a better chancellor. Unfortunately, when it comes to politics there appears to be a severe lack of said sentient beings on the electoral registers...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 01:32 AM

Here in the Land of Oz we have The Daily Rupert, The Sydney Rupert, The Melbourne Rupert, The Brisbane Rupert & The National Rupert