BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 05:11 AM

Here you go, Nigel.

Brexit home truths undeniable but not to Tories

Opinion of course but pretty compelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 04:39 AM

Well fishy Rishi's very dodgy judgement, already highlighted by his appointment of the horrendous Braverman, would have been even more to the fore had he sacked Williamson. You can bet your life that he didn't half lean on him to resign instead...

When my sis was president of the NAHT, she bumped into Williamson one day in St James' Park and had a natter with him. Brick wall...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 22 - 02:12 AM

Williamson resigned. But it shouldn’t have come to resignation, Fishy Rishi should have sacked him. This hideous Tory government really are absolutely rotten to the core.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 03:42 PM

Left right, quick quick slow!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:53 PM

I had a left instead of a right! I should have said everything has moved so much to the right!

Yes, mainstream media, Stanron. Think Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times and Sun.

You really think that things have not moved in that direction? That Thatcher and subsequent tory leaders were not right of, for instance, Ted Heath? Or that Tony Blair was not right of Harold Wilson? The whole political spectrum has moved so far to the right as to give neo-nazi organisations a voice and enabled ridiculously right figures like Trump to gain power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 02:34 PM

It's ok, lads, it's April fools' day.


Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 01:44 PM

D the G posts

"The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of center is jumped upon as Communist!"

MSM = mainstream media?

There's something not quite right (or should I say correct ? ) with what follows. Either everything left of center will seem more centrist or current standards have moved to the right. I'm going to guess that, if MSM means mainstream media, you mean the latter of the two. I'd have to disagree.

To me mainstream media seems left of center. Especially the BBC. Not as far left as the more vociferous UK lefty posters on this forum and maybe that's the point. They are left of me and right of you. Perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 12:36 PM

The Guardian is more left leaning than most of the MSM, Stanron, but it is far from left wing. Except of course by current standards which have moved so much to the left anything slightly left of centre is jumped upon as Communist!

Nigel. How far would the pound have dropped had it not been for brexit? Much less. So a drop in the pound due to brexit is a valid statement. You are really clutching at straws here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 11:17 AM

I don't read the Guardian. To be honest I've not read any newspaper in the last fifteen years. Before that I only got papers for the puzzles, not the political content.

From reading this forum it's clear to me that the Guardian is a left wing paper that uses partial truths to tell politically motivated lies.

So what's new? You can say that of most papers, left or right. You believe what you want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 10:41 AM

Dave:
Should we believe Mark Carney?
Well his stance immediately prior to the Brexit vote is available in The Guardian and it is possible that, even now, he does not want to admit he was wrong.
Other views question his latest comments, as in The Spectator

So it's not a case of deciding who is more likely to be believed, me or an ex-governor of the BofE.
The above Guardian quote (of Carney) even shows that he was only claiming half the pre-vote fall in the pound was due to risks associated with a vote to leave:
The Bank noted the pound had already depreciated 9% since a November peak and that half of that was down to the “risks associated with a vote to leave the European Union”

The situation is a lot more nuanced than it at first appears.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 09:05 AM

”We have absolutely no benefits whatsoever from brexit.”

Do us a favour and tell that to your fellow delusional Tory-apologist, Nitpicking Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 08:57 AM

We have absolutely no benefits whatsoever from brexit.

Now we have complete idiots sitting on motorways blocking people from going about their daily business. I hope the time is near when motorists begin shunting this scum out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 22 - 05:19 AM

Mark Carney confirming that brexit is a significant factor in the current crisis and that Raggy's comments about the pound crashing are correct.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63515486

Who should we believe I wonder? A former governor of the Bank of England or a Tory apologist from a folk music forum. Hmmmm. Tough one :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 10:46 AM

> I think a better question to ask brexiteers is "What tangible benefits
> are there to us ordinary folk as a result of brexit?"

They keep getting asked that. For what I hear every time in response, look up the definition of "duckspeak" in the Appendix of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 08:12 AM

Agreed, Dave, but there are things that are a direct cause of brexit. Difficulty exporting products. Companies moving from to mainland Europe to avoid the red tape. Products missing from our shops because EU companies do not want the hastle of exporting to us. Queues of Lorries on the M20. The peace in Northern Ireland being threatened. UK Artists having to cancel European tours. Need I go on?

Yes, Covid and the war in Ukraine have had their effects but that is global. It affects everyone and, as John put above, the financial crisis between 2007 and 2009 was global but the Tories still blame it on the Labour party.

I think a better question to ask brexiteers is "What tangible benefits are there to us ordinary folk as a result of brexit?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 06:45 AM

I find a lot of remain voters persist in phrasing things as "Brexit is the cause of" X, Y or Z, which simply leads to the response "You are ignoring Covid and Ukraine".   It would help, perhaps, if the remain voters could adopt something more along the lines of "Almost every country suffered from covid and from the effects of the Ukraine war. What can be pointed to that show the UK has managed better than other places because of Brexit freedoms?"

And, by the way, 'early vaccines' is not one. What matters on vaccinations is the total number of lives saved, not the date of the earliest injection nor the number delivered. Effectiveness is what counts, not process.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 06:03 AM

Now thriving = not thriving

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 04:45 AM

Unfortunately, or fortunately for them perhaps, the Brexshiteers and Tory supporters have been gifted a few excuses which they have used, and are continuing to use, to excuse the Tory government's abysmal performance over the past twelve years - not least being Covid (which they claim as a victory, despite the couple of hundred thousand deaths and the billions they gave away to their friends, relatives, and local pub landlords for bogus PPE contracts etc.) and now the war in Ukraine (funny, innit - they are happy to use that as an excuse for rocketing inflation, high energy costs, rising interest rates, yadda, yadda, yet when the last Labour government had to deal with the effects of a world-wide financial crash, and had to fork out hundreds of billions to rescue the Tories' mates, the Bankers, whose profligacy and recklessness had caused the crash in the first place, the Tories claimed, and are still trying to profit from their lie, that 'The Labour Party crashed the economy').

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 22 - 02:54 AM

Nigel. I, for one, never expected the complete catastrophe forecast by some and have said as much on many occasions. Nor did I expect the sunlit uplands that many of the brexiteers were singing about. I did think it would be bad but it is showing itself to be worse than I thought. Now I have agreed that the some of the predictions made by remainers were wrong, can you tell us how far towards the promised land of milk and honey we have progressed? Or are you willing to admit that it has not been as easy as some promised. Or that we have not had people banging on our door for deals, as promised? Or that our economy is now thriving, as promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 06:11 PM

Well I can't disagree about the baleful effects of PFI, Vincent. The cost to the NHS down the years has been enormous. As with the schools academy system, New Labour forgot to be careful what it wished for. However, the point holds that the NHS has been neglected and appallingly funded under 12 years of Tory rule. Most users of the NHS are going to be influenced in their judgement by the upfront consequences they see: terrible waiting times in A&E, inability to get a GP appointment in anything like a timely way, years instead of a few weeks on waiting lists. And just pray that you'll never need an ambulance. It wasn't anything like that in 2010, as both my missus and I can abundantly attest (unfortunately).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 05:13 PM

"Enjoy it as you sidle past the food bank"

No need to know they exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 22 - 01:27 PM

Balderdash Nigel, and you know it. In a market where a change of half a cent or one cent is considered plummetting or soaring (as described by the media) a fall of 12 cents overnight is an absolute catastrophe. The pound has never recovered from that fall and does not seem likely to any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:57 AM

Raggytash.
As was pointed out many times prior to, and after, the vote, the pound was already on a downward trend to adjust for previous overpricing. The pound had already fallen from a high in 2015 of around 1.43 (up gradually from 2012/13 when it was around 1.16)

To attribute this solely to Brexit is a false premise. It was however a good excuse to finish the expected realignment swiftly.

You comment on my not responding.
By concentration on the exchange rate you are not responding to the expected a) massive black hole in the economy b) massive unemployment which were also forecast as being immediate responses to a leave vote. Do you agree that these did not occur? In which case 'project fear' was false.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM

PPI or PFI ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 06:05 AM

I would if I could, Steve, but I think the PPI has facilitated much of today's NHS problems: many of the contracts run for 25 years, and the opportunity costs of the billions spent on "experts" and restructuring, the increased rental charges of buildings given to or built in the public sector, the cronies putting cash from our taxes into their arse pockets at the expense of the working conditions, particularly of lower paid NHS workers, these things don't end when the government changes - but may well whet the appetites of Tory vultures for more of the same. I won't be able to answer how much of the disgraceful state of the NHS is due to whom, and I trust the Tories even less, but I think that a lot of the groundwork was courtesy of New Labour. Several friends who voted for Blair felt shafted and left the NHS, mostly nurses and one with 15 years of midwifery experience.

I agree with your view of the state of the NHS, but my father's utterly contemptible treatment in his last years - a veteran of Monte Cassino with parts of his lung left at Tossignano - was in the middle of a New Labour restructuring. So perhaps I'm biased - and I sincerely hope that you are not currently experiencing the level of care my dad received.

I'd like to think that today's Labour party would improve the NHS, but then I'd love to open the bowling for Lancashire County Cricket Club, something that I think is far more likely to happen.

And I thought I could read opinions without engaging in the polemics, but it seems I can't. Bugger. Hey, Arsenal are doing well this season, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM

Yep, money in the bank not targeted. Enjoy it as you sidle past the food bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Nov 22 - 05:34 AM

Looking forward to receiving Winter Fuel Allowance + Pensioners Cost of Living allowance - tax free of course!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:07 PM

My apologies for the appalling spelling in my last post I hit submit by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:02 PM

Nigel, as you know you have a reputation on this site of being a bit (lot) of being a pedant.

I responded to your earlier submission that there was a suggest by reminers that "the pound would 'tank'" after the vote to leave Europe had occured and according to you had not done so.

I suggested that in actual fact the pound had indeed "tanked" immediately after Brexit.

I also notice that you have failed to respond to my reply.

So, please tell me, if the pound had dropped from about 1.32 Euro to the pound to 1.20 Euro to the pound, given in mind that a change of 1/2 a cent or 1 cent is considered plummeting or soaring, what is a drop of 12 cents overnight.

I might also add that as of today I can get a mere 1.15 Euro to the pound, a consierable drop from the 1.32 Euro I could have received pre Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 03:20 PM

I can agree with you about the baleful effects of Blair as you describe them, Vincent, but the Tory administrations since 2010 have underfunded the NHS year on year, and it is now in a parlous state. I speak as an unwilling frequent "customer" of the service over that whole period. In terms of getting to see my doctor, getting referred for hospital treatment, getting that treatment (or not), waits in A&E, etc., there is no comparison between the early 2010s and now. Tell me again at the end of this winter whether you still think Blair did as much harm as two Tory administrations...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:47 PM

I'm seeing a pattern here, Nigel

Brexit is damaging the economy
- It's not as bad as some people predicted

Bozzer lied to everyone
- He's not as bad as Blair

It's almost as if you have never heard that 2 wrongs don't make a right!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:31 PM

Blair’s policies, supported by the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and despite a large-scale rebellion by Labour MPs, did to the Middle East, IIRC.

Blair only got support from the Conservatives because he lied to Parliament.
He stated that he had seen conclusive proof that there were WMDs capable of rapid deployment against the UK. Proof which, he was unable to share with Parliament!

Compared to which, Boris' confusion over exactly what constituted a party, and what was a workplace event seems negligible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 01:00 PM

”But it still pales in comparison with what Blair's policies did to the Middle East.”

…Blair’s policies, supported by the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and despite a large-scale rebellion by Labour MPs, did to the Middle East, IIRC.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 12:35 PM

"His great achievement was in funding and running public services" Pete, you're clearly someone not looking to argue to win points since you mentioned the PPI, something, in my view, about as damaging to the NHS as at least two Tory governments, not to mention the removal of the Community Health Councils, so I shall take a serious look again at Blair's admin. All I can say about that, though, is the effect it had on the lives of people that I knew who were working in public services, including my missus, was not to the good.

But it still pales in comparison with what Blair's policies did to the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 12:18 PM

Let's do the job properly: the entirety of the Untied Kingdom should declare UDI from Planet Westminster, wait for the implosion, and build a decent government on the rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 08:25 AM

”Maybe you will let us, Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland join Scotland? :-D “

…and don’t forget the Backwoods of Lincolnshire… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:30 AM

Indeed, wr. I also suspect that the north of Ireland will leave the UK although I am not sure what will happen to Wales. This April sees the removal of a layer of local government in North Yorkshire too as the seven current districts all become one. Part of the reason? Devolution! Maybe you will let us, Cumbria, Durham and Northumberland join Scotland? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: weerover
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 07:07 AM

Scotland voted narrowly in 2014 to remain part of the UK. One of the main "selling points" of the "Better Together" campaign was that it was the only way to stay in the EU. Scotland then voted almost 2 to 1 to remain in the EU but was taken out against the will of the Scottish electorate. What is likely to happen next, I wonder?

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:47 AM

"Pre the vote we were told that the pound would 'tank"

AS is often the case with the right wing you are trying to rewrite history Nigel. The pound went from 1.32 euro to 1.20 euro overnight.

In a financial market were a rise of one quarter or one half of a cent is claimed to be soaring or plummeting I would suggest a fall of 12 cents can be said to have tanked.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:14 AM

I’ve yet to speak to a BrexShit supporter who can give even one example of a tangible benefit felt by the general population of the UK which has been a direct result of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 06:10 AM

... and, of course, Brexit has been a rip-roaring success in Northern Ireland.

Fintan O'Toole - Northern Ireland faces another pointless election

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 04:53 AM

”I, for one, don't believe that my voting for Brexit has been proved to be a failure. And I'm happy to say so.
Brexit was a necessary readjustment of our relationship with 'Europe'.”

I’ll bet you believe all that S-F stuff too.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 03:40 AM

I would rather believe the economists, Nigel. You carry on believing that leaving the EU has done no economic harm if you like but the truth is, it has.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:46 PM

By far the most important development for the planet today was the defeat of Bolsonaro in Brazil. I've been biting my nails about that all day. But I might just afford myself a small extra tot of red (appropriate enough!) to raise a glass to Lula, dodgy geezer though he may be. Last time he was in power he did a lot of good, and he might just help to save the rainforest, unlike Bolsonaro...

Back to the Britfest. Shall we chat about Braverman or shall we get a good night's kip instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 07:26 PM

The British public did vote for brexit even though it was as plain as the nose on your face that it would be harmful to the economy.

"As plain as the nose on your face".
Pre the vote we were told that the pound would 'tank' that there would be an immediate 'black hole' in the economy of £60k, that unemployment would go through the roof.
None of these happened.
'Project fear" totally failed.

I, for one, don't believe that my voting for Brexit has been proved to be a failure. And I'm happy to say so.
Brexit was a necessary readjustment of our relationship with 'Europe'.

Whatever our current problems (exchange rate with the Dollar, inflation rate, unemployment rate) Europe (the EU bloc) have similar problems!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 06:12 PM

Well said Dave. Right on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 01:40 PM

I was recently accused of being a remoaner on Faceache. I am quite proud if that sobriquet but this was my response

The British public did vote for brexit even though it was as plain as the nose on your face that it would be harmful to the economy. That the referendum was won fair and square is not in question and I will always agree it was the wish of the majority that bothered to vote. Trouble is that no-one will now admit that they were conned by liars and Charlatans as they would rather blame someone else. Which is why we now have the political chaos we are seeing. No one will admit that they were wrong so it becomes impossible to put right. The fact that I could always see it was wrong leaves me open to accusations of "remoaning" and that I want to, somehow, subvert the outcome of a fair vote. Well, it was also a fair vote in 2019 but I will do all I can to change the fairly elected government as soon as possible. The only difference between that and 2016 seems to be that we are lumbered with the decision to leave the EU forever and to question that makes me an insurgent and traitor :-( Long rant over. Thanks for reading :-)

I doubt that it will shut the accuser up but I think it sums up my views :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 10:54 AM

I work to pay for Mrs Bonzo's private medical insurance, if it's all the same to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 09:49 AM

I’m alright - very alright - and I haven’t worked since 2012, I haven’t needed to. Still paying a lot of tax on my pensions though. No ‘handouts’ in our house, just the pensions I’m entitled to as a result of working and paying taxes for fifty years, the pension I saved for, and Mrs. Backwoodsperson’s not-inconsiderable salary.

Hey-ho, it’s a grand life!

Oh shit, I’m starting to sound a bit Toryfied…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 09:10 AM

Doesn't say much for your financial management Bonzo if you still have to work when your in your 70's even when the government are giving "hand-outs" as you would call them into your household.