BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM

Looks like crashing out is inevitable. Why am I not surprised.

An economist interviewed on the news said food will likely to be more expensive and not as readily available. Got to look at the bright side I suppose though. Dishwashers will be cheaper.

I hope all those who were fooled by Boris's Bus and Farage's Frauds will be happy washing all those dishes that have not had any food on them :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM

Possibly, Dave, but I am prepared to wait a few more days to see how things turn out. If a deal is proposed, there is then the UK Parliament and the EU gauntlets to run. So things don't look good, but we will see soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM

There are bound to be a few problems as it will take a while to settle down. It will be a few years before we are able to tell if we are better off or not.i don't think we will be but time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK...!!!????? [Wtff for more sensitive folks...]

Not seen this reported on any BBC news...

Labour Suspends Prominent Jewish Activist For Defending Jeremy Corbyn


If this hadn't just turned up on my random youtube feed,
I'd be none the wiser...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM

Watching an American Public Broadcasting television article about Brexit using the term "Hard Brexit" multiple times.

Some good comments from a British economist including the following cautions regarding Hard Brexit long term fallout:

a smaller England with essentially constricted borders
the Good Friday agreement threatened
diplomatic ill feelings between Europe and the U.K., uncertainty with U.S. relations.

A point that was new to me but probably not to many of you was that the Europeans have a need to not let the U.K. look like it got a great deal, because then further exits become more attractive. And I suppose that U.K. has an interest in keeping Scotland aboard while all this is happening as well.

And I believe many of you feel that Boris favors a Hard Brexit anyway.

Canada and Quebec take notice!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM

Unfortunately, Robomatic, many favoured a hard Brexit. Trouble is that they believe this means that the UK will keep all the benefits of being in Europe, be able to keep out Johnny Foreigner and, once again, rule the waves. Boris convinced them that he could achieve this. They believed him. Boris may be the worst prime minister we have ever had but, as a con man, he has no equal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Or to put it less dramatically, all of the costs due to disruption during the few years Rain Dog mentions have to be recovered before you can even think of being better off. If, for example, during that time a long term contract comes up and because of the disruption it goes to another country as supplier, it may be decades before it comes up again so the business concerned (and hence to some extent the UK) is disadvantaged for all that period.

I thought Zoe Williams described it quite well in a recent article

So there emerged two discrete, parallel contexts for the discussion: one completely abstract, in which democracy must be upheld and sovereignty restored; the other completely concrete: who do you sell herring to if you don’t want to eat it, and where on earth do you have an Irish border? Never able to knit those two spheres back together, we had instead this jarring dualism, where we’d talk grace notes in Westminster (take control of our money, borders and laws!), and car plant closures outside Westminster, and those discussions never progressed since they were never informed by one another.

Whether the country thrives or not depends on the concrete: the herrings, the cars, the sheep exports, the services provided and so on. Sovereignty is only really relevant (in trade) to the extent it affects those.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM

yes PFR thankyou for that video clip.
mean while Hillary Benn is very quiet is he watching which way the wind is blowing, IS HE waiting for Starmer to destroy himself

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM

i am sure that not everybody who voted leave, voted for a hard brexit some [i think ] were under the impression that there were options like norway or canada or switzerland , there should be another clearer referendum, this is an important issue and people should know exactly what they are voting for

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM

It'll not be too surprising if a significant number of the 60,000 and rising covid fatalities,
voted yes for brexit...

..that'd take a chunk out of the miniscule majority
looking forward so enthusiastically to leaving the EU..


My sense of humour is too dark sometimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Good argument which could be applied to those in Calais looking to make a risky crossing of the channel.
For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM

Definitely, Nigel. There are those who prepared to let the country take the risks or bear the costs. I would say, though, I see a significant reluctance on their part to elaborate how severe those risks or costs are. Even what they mean by 'short term' is very hard to pin down when they use it phrases like like 'disruption in the short term'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM

For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM

..great metaphor..

..a lot of 'em are already dropping dead from disease,
before they even crawl into the punctured leaky rubber dinghies
attempting to cross the treacherous river brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

Brexit River will turn out to be a creek for most people.Nigel Farage , Boris and a few others will be able paddle their way out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM

Nigel,

I am thinking of taking up archery as a hobby, and I require you to put an apple on your head so I can have a go at sharpshooting. As I have no practice - I last did archery at school in 1978 - I am aware of the risks if I am an inch or two out with my aim. But you need to fully accept those risks.

No ifs, no butts (pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum. They were not accepted by the majority of voters then, and I doubt if they would be now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM

Stop trying to delude yourself - and us. Control is shared by the 28 states, and the bigger your state the more say you have. As one of the biggest states we had plenty of say, including the possibility of vetos over many major proposals. There is no European army because we said no, for example. That doesn't amount to "little or no control" in my book. The fact is, Nigel, that the UK willingly joined the consensus over changes to regulations and EU law almost all the time - because you can't get bad laws past all 28 states. The EU is about consensus, not control. Which is not to say that grievous mistakes, over Greece for example, can't be made...

"As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum."

But it's OK for you to trot out the lies that fooled millions into voting brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM

Nigel, had we have remained in the EU and our standard of living had taken a dive due to that, I would have happily joined you in castigating the EU.

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out. It has been pointed out that there will be tough times ahead and even the most ardent Brexiteer has now accepted that.

Until such a time as the losses we will suffer are recovered and we have surpassed our current standard of living I will continue to lay the blame at your door. If it ever happens that we make up for economic, social and cultural losses and then surpass our existing standards you are welcome to say "I told you so". I shall not be holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out

Oh, I am sure no blame will be put on that if there is any remote chance of blaming covid-19 instead.

Yes, covid-19 will hit hard. That does not mean Brexit is not a factor if we have problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave. In fact, had it not been for the time and energy wasted on the farcical handling of Brexit I am convinced that we would have been better equipped to handle the virus. So that is also Nigel's fault ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave

Indeed, but surprisingly recently in some respects. It was still possible in 2009 for an MP to be shamed for buying a Mars Bar on expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

much as i agree, there looks like a massive cock up , it is uncalled for to say that it is nigels fault. Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM

As much as we enjoy friendly bickering banter with our mudcat mate Nigel,
we do know it wasn't only him wot dunnit..

Obviously he has far too many guilty accomplices for us to include them all by name individually..

That just wouldn't be practical..

So we'll just have to settle for acknowledging Nigel,
who is friendly enough to talk to us,
and the known named leaders of the anti political he is an active member of...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM

oops.. that last sentence somehow got scrambled between proof reading and submitting...


"and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM

So, Dick, who is going to take responsibility for Brexit? Choices are all well and good, as was the power given in the referendum. But with the power to make choices for the entire population comes great responsibilty. Someone needs to accept that responsibility and as Nigel is the only one on Mudcat espousing the benefits of Brexit we can only assume he accepts that responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM

and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

There seems to be a few members of that group.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM

Cameron should take responsibilty, he took the political gamble.,, then to a lesser extent Farage and Johnson
being rude to another mudcat member who supports brexit does not help political discussion or solve anything,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM

If Nigel thinks anyone here is being rude to him,
presumably he's tough enough to tell us himself...???

It's a bit like when Ake popped up today [before his post was deleted]
to lecture us on what Nick Dow [or Mr Dow, as Ake smarmily referred to him] was really trying to say..

My polite reply to him was:

"Since you appear to have developed mind reading powers since we last met,
that could come in very handy...

Though I'm sure Mr Dow is more tha capable of talking for himself,
rather than have you voice his inner thoughts on his behalf...???"...

Anyway..

Brexit last minute drama deadline negotiations..

what a pathetic farce...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM

Dick, I'm not being rude to Nigel. I am saying that because he voted for Brexit it is his fault we are leaving the EU. Ok, I know there were many more who voted the same but as he choses to be their voice on here he is accepting the responsibility. As to helping political discussion or solving anything. Really? Do you think that an obscure minority music forum has ever helped to solve any of the world's political issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM

I agree. Nigel is quite capable of defending himself if he wishes. Equally, he is quite entitled not to get into an argument if that is his preference.

Blame and responsibility are subtly different. We all have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions, and should not object to being asked to account for them (though we are entitled to ignore the request.) So it is fair to expect people to take responsibility for how they voted. If they agreed that some disruption might occur, for example, then if it does they should be willing to say they accepted and still accept that as part of the necessary price.

Blame, though, is harder. I anticipate hearing quite a few Brexiteers saying over the next year that the problem was all in how it was implemented: A no-deal Brexit, for example, could have been decided at the start of the transition, giving every business a year or more to adapt to address any disadvantages and ready themselves to take advantage of any benefits. It would have given time to recruit border staff, implement and test IT systems and all the rest. This is an argument familiar from the previous decade about whether communism was 'never properly tried'. While I think no-deal a dreadful outcome, I can see some merit in that argument. If you were going to end up in no-deal, there were better paths to get there, and those choices were made by governments, not voters.

Equally if you are aiming for a deal, you had many alternatives. Using some of the conventional game theory labels, you could have played the stag hunt, rather than chicken.   We opted for chicken, which typically has the most extreme outcomes - you tend to win big or lose big. Guess where we look as if we are heading?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM

previous decade
I meant 'previous century'. How time flies!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM

There are of course 2 sides involved in these negotiations. The EU were not happy with the decision for us to leave but once the decision was made they let us get on with it.BUT they are.mindful of the fact that they will not want to make it look to other members, that leaving the EU "might" appear not to involve too many negatives.Some other EU members may well be waiting to see how we get on once things settle down. We are living in uncertain times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM

ridiculous, Cameron is the person who is responsible he gave the refendum, why not blame jeremy corbyn or trump

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM

how about blaming denis skinner? he was anti europe, however he was not in a posituion to grant a referendum, nor was corbyn nor was trump nor was nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:30 AM

I doubt if any of them have even heard of Mudcat, Dick. I do blame Cameron for caving in to the right wing populists but he is not here. Anyone who voted leave has joint responsibility for causing this chaos and at least one of them is here to read my complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 07:56 AM

And at least that blame (if it is right) can be spread a long way. More than half the voting public voted to leave the EU. That will spread that blame extremely thinly.
Also there is the matter of Barnier originally saying that he would only offer the UK the same terms as Canada, but then, apparently, withdrawing that option. Where does the blame for that lie? I would suggest that some of it lies with the BBC and the remain camp. They seem to have convinced the EU that, if the EU held its nerve, and didn't offer a good deal, then the referendum would be overturned. While we still had Theresa May that might have come true. But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.
If we leave on WTO terms (called 'no deal' by some) then we are out, and negotiations can re-start in earnest, with the EU negotiating from a totally different position.
France look as if they want to scupper any deal, and insist that the EU must not give in on fisheries, hence the attempt to get an 80/20 split. If we leave on WTO terms then the UK regains full cotrol of our coastal waters, and France will be looking to increase from zero%. A totally different position.
I would like to see UK get a good deal, but still feel that " 'No deal' is better than a bad deal".
We will know within three weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM

Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:41 AM

And here we are with 3 weeks to go.
Get ready for Brexit the government tells us. Well it would be helpful if someone told us what the regulations will be on the 1st of Jan.
Get ready for Brexit the EU tells their member states. Well it would be helpful if someone told EU companies if they will have to pay tariffs on their imports from the Uk or if their exports to the UK will be liable to tariffs.
Some negotiations huh? Some negotiators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM

"Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half."

Neither is 43.35% but then it was a long time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM

But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.

Can you elaborate on that Nigel? As far as I can see, both sides are still playing chicken and nothing has changed in that respect. Being prepared to pay the cost of losing is part of the game. There is a list of the standard 'game theory' games here, and to mind 'Chicken' is still the best fit. Which do you think is better?

Personally, I think the game was initiated when David Davis was saying all the UK needed to do was stick to its demands and the EU would give in at the last minute, which is as textbook an example of 'chicken' as you could hope for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:59 AM

Where does the blame for that lie?

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM

"From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM
Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory..."

Steve, when will you understand that "the voting public" means the public who vote. Recreating the figures to include people who were entitled to vote but didn't, or (as you have tried in the past) to show the number who voted leave as a percentage of the total population, is to misquote the figures.

(roughly) of those who voted 52% voted leave, and 48% remain.
If you must reduce the 52% to 38% by choosing a different 'whole' then the number voting remain must also be reduced (to 48%*38/52). The relationship between the two figures will still remain 58/42.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.
And had you, and others, not voted remain the decision to leave would have been unanimous, and the attempts to thwart Brexit would never have arisen.
Alternate history lies in the precinct of Science Fiction. It does not necessarily make for a good discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM

The "attempts to thwart Brexit" would never have arisen if the vote had been remain. There are situations that are more likely than others and remaining in the EU would have been far more predictable than the leap into the dark we are currently engaged in. Don't be silly Nigel, it doesn't become you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM

As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?). Had you said "electorate" you'd have been obliged to qualify your "more than half" claim too, and, incidentally, reported the result more honestly. You chose a way of putting it that avoided the need to admit that only 38% of the electorate (and I too could just as easily have said the more vague "voting public" there too...) are taking us out of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

Poor old covid going to get the blame for post brexit hardships...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM

And that doesn't take into account the 20+% of under 18s who will be most seriously impacted and had no say whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM

Nice of the Independent to remind us of this:

Now seems as good a time as any to crack out this report from June 2019 when the then Tory leadership frontrunner, one Boris Johnson, claimed the odds of a no-deal Brexit were “a million-to-one against”.

At the time, he said:

It is absolutely vital that we prepare for a no-deal Brexit if we are going to get a deal. But I don’t think that is where we are going to end up – I think it is a million-to-one against – but it is vital that we prepare.



One in a million, eh?   Wonder how we got here, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM

Are you suggesting that we lower the voting age then Dave?

Unfortunately it is the younger generation who will be paying the cost incurred due to covid. We will have to wait and see what costs/changes they will have to deal with due to Brexit.