BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM

now now do not be dogmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.

Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM

PFR :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."

As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.