BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:56 PM

Distancing themselves now and who could blame them. Trouble is, it would be better if Bozo was still there at election time. Hopefully he is deluded enough to think that everyone loves him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:53 PM

A bunch of hateful shits who have suddenly decided they possess integrity, despite since 2019 relentlessly defending a man whom they knew from the beginnning was unfit to hold office.

Mark Gatiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:35 PM

They’re only resigning because they want Johnson’s job. Since 2019 they’ve been totally complicit in his entire shit-show…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:03 PM

As the guilty party at the start of this derailment of the thread:

* I love this country, but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops.

* I detest people who shout "love of country" from the rooftops as cover for trashing it.

Now, can we *please* get back to badmouthing politicians rather than each other? before this thread gets smothered in flame retardant. We must hang together, lest we all hang separately, an' all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:58 PM

Appeal to authority followed by ad hominem. 2 of the top 3 cardinal sins of debate! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:45 PM

Sunak - gone, Javid - gone.

If johnson still insists on staying in power and finds sycophantic nodding donkeys to replace them, this country is f****d for the next decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:24 PM

Dave the gnome you are talking bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:44 AM

I just noticed this too

"Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:55 AM

Dr Johnson imo was right, patriotism has been used to encourage people to fight other people in other countries, it has been used by political establishments to control ordinary people send them off to their death, examples first world war ,napoleon invading Russia."

I agree. patriotism has been used in this manner. As has religion and other things. This does not make it a bad thing in itself, it just means the people using it in this way are cynical manipulators of others. Just like journalists and, to a certain extent, many other writers.

What do you propose to do? Ban a love of one's land? As far as I am concerned people can be as religious or patriotic as they chose as long as they do not try to force their views on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:30 AM

If we are doing appeals to authority, let's do the hig one. From
Encyclopedia Britannica

"patriotism, feeling of attachment and commitment to a country, nation, or political community. Patriotism (love of country) and nationalism (loyalty to one’s nation) are often taken to be synonymous, yet patriotism has its origins some 2,000 years prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century"

Or better still, let's look at another way. What word means "a feeling of attachment and commitment to a country" without the feeling of superiority that nationalism brings about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:51 AM

Steve, if a word is used in a certain way by journalists and other people including the ones i have quoted, it takes on that meaning through usage.
you can carry on denying it, but it does not alter the fact that many people [including lots of journalists] use it in that particular way, and it means that through usage patriotism takes on a meaning through its usage as a word.
toilet is an example of another word that through its usage means a place where people shit and piss rather than just a washing place, its meaning gets altered through its usage, the correct term for a shitting and pissing room is a water closet, but people use the term toilet, so the word toilet through its usage means more than just a washing room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:40 AM

There is a useful distinction to hold on to between nationalism and patriotism. That's why I prefer it if there's no blurring between the two. We can all dredge up past luminaries and present-day journalists who use words in colourful ways, which may be their job, but the bottom line is always that useful distinction for us mere mortals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:04 PM

"When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

LEWIS CARROLL (Charles L. Dodgson), Through the Looking-Glass, chapter 6, p. 205 (1934). First published in 1872.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:35 PM

Let's go ride bikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 03:24 PM

George Bernard Shaw Quotes
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
So many journlists plus Bertrand Russell Shaw and Wilde and Dr johnson, ALL SEE IT DIFFERENTLY FROM YOU.
Steve Shaw is never wrong , so they must all be wrong, hilarious

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 01:16 PM

More appeals to authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 12:15 PM

Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

Bertrand Russell

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Oscar Wilde

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 09:24 AM

"...if journalists consitently over the years use a word that becomes its meaning."

Patently not so. For a word to take on a different or an extra meaning, that sense of the word has to become common currency among the population as a whole. Again, you persist with your mistaken notion that journalists are somehow the arbiters of language.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 07:57 AM

By way of a bit of light relief, have a listen to Eric Bogle's take on the misuse of language :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 07:54 AM

The press spin words to suit their masters agenda. Trump supporters are patriots. Voting to leave Europe is patriotic. Anti government protesters are fanatics or criminals. They have used the tactic as long as they have existed and people still fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 06:02 AM

Per the Concise Oxford Dictionary…

“patriotism /'pe?tr??t?z(?)m /
? noun [mass noun] the quality of being patriotic; devotion to and vigorous support for one's country:
a highly decorated officer of unquestionable integrity and patriotism.”

“nationalism /'na?(?)n(?)l?z(?)m /
? noun [mass noun] identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations:
their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Union.
?advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people:
Scottish nationalism”

The difference between ‘patriotism’ and ‘nationalism’ seems to be very clearly defined there. Nothing to argue about AFAICS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:45 AM

I said thqt if a particular word is used regularly and consistently it then has a meaning, in this particular case the use of the word patriotism and how it is consistently used by journalists.
but the reality is that is is used that way by journalists
I can understand that you would prefer it if it was not used in that way. but if journalists consitently over the years use a word that becomes its meaning.
let us take the word gay , a classic example of how a word can evolve,and take on a second meaning that is what language does it evolves and changes

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:44 AM

I am not misusing it, but it would appear you think that the journalists i have quoted are, that is not my problem, but either your problem or the problem of the journalists i have quoted.[ including the guardian

The fact that you quote it suggests that you believe it to be correct, or else why quote it?
If you still believe it to be correct, tell me why. If not, accept that you (and the Guardian) were wrong and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 05:23 AM

"...their country’s military goals..."

There ya go, Dick. Nationalism.

By the way, no-one has said that journalists can't be right sometimes. But your argument that the way journalists use a word must mean that it's the right way to use it is a typical example of the logical fallacy we call argument from authority. In this case, journalists are not, as you seem to think, the arbiters of our language. You are casting them as precisely that. We expect journalists to be adept in the use of language because it's their job to communicate clearly. But I can pick up the Guardian on any day and find plenty of examples of well-meaning but clumsy journalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:22 AM

Let's look at what else journalists tell us shall we

Boris is doing a great job and brexit is working well

It must be true if it says so in the press...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 04:07 AM

HERE FROM 2022 is a journalist using the word patriotism in a way that you maintain is wrong, all thes journalists keep doing this, and you maintain they are all wrong, ha ha ha
Will Russians continue to support Putin’s war in Ukraine?
Patriotic attitudes run high in Russia, our research finds
Analysis by Michael Alexeev
and
William Pyle

March 15, 2022 at 7:00 a.m. EDT
Russian President Vladimir Putin awaits Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko’s arrival for talks in Moscow on March 11. (Mikhail Klimentyev/Pool/Sputnik/Kremlin/AP)

Western officials worry openly that there are no clear off-ramps to end Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. With a protracted and even deadlier war looking ever more likely, will Russians tolerate the invasion’s increasing costs? Or will Vladimir Putin, a highly popular autocratic leader for 20-plus years, lose ordinary Russians’ support?

As Putin massed a large invasion force at the Ukrainian border in late 2021, polls showed that less than 1 in 10 Russians believed Moscow “should send military forces to fight against Ukrainian government troops.” By mid-February, as the Russian military staged massive exercises, another poll — framing the use of force as an effort to repel Ukraine’s NATO aspirations — found that 1 in 2 Russians believed force would be justified. A week after the invasion, 58 percent of Russians reportedly supported the invasion of Ukraine.

What do these and other polls tell us? We’ve studied Russians’ self-reported willingness to sacrifice for their country, comparing Russians’ patriotic attitudes to those of people in other countries. Our research finds that Russians have consistently expressed greater willingness to sacrifice their material well-being in the interests of their country’s military goals — and are more willing to accept conflict with other nations to defend Russian interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 03:53 AM

I am not misusing it, but it would appear you think that the journalists i have quoted are, that is not my problem, but either your problem or the problem of the journalists i have quoted.[ including the guardian
steve, if people including journalists consistently use or as you put it misuse a word, that word then has that particular meaning, look up articles on usage of language, it makes no difference if the journalists are writing for the Daily Mail or as i have quoted the Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 22 - 02:43 AM

I provided the evidence required in the article I linked, Dick. From that article -

"The key difference between nationalism and patriotism is that nationalism is the belief in an exclusionary and insular nation-state, while patriotism is the non-exclusionary love of your own nation."

The meaning of patriotism is clear and if you choose to misuse it that is you business

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 07:25 PM

You make a good argument, Nigel. It's just that some of us believe that the British occupation of the Falklands for 150 years was unjustified....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 06:56 PM

Sandman:
A thousand dead, terrible wounds; the Union Jack flying again over the Falklands (pop. 1,800); rejoicing and mutual congratulation in the House of Commons; champagne and Rule Britannia in Downing Street - each must draw his or her own balance sheet and historians must decide where to place the Falklands War in the annals of Britain's post-1945 adjustment to her reduced circumstances as a declining power.

Truth is one of the first casualties of peace and, now that it has broken out, we had better be on our guard against disinformation. President Harding was right, although his vocabulary wasn't, when he announced the return to "normalcy".

Things will never be quite the same after Mrs Thatcher's war, but they will be more the same than is apparent on the VF Day.

The Falklands themselves, the prize of the war, will quite quickly retreat down the league table of public concern. For a while they will remain too serious a matter to be left to Sir Bernard Braine but before very long, I would guess, they will revert to their traditional place in British politics, one they have occupied since they were brought briefly to Dr Johnson's attention, that is - out of sight and out of mind.

So, it appears that you believe that countries should not protect themselves/their dependencies against foreign invasion?
Does this mean we should let Russia roll into and over Ukraine?

If that is not what you mean, then Margaret Thatcher's defence of the Falklands was probably correct.
"Mrs Thatcher's war"? You may have missed that it started with an invasion by Argentina!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 05:09 PM

And who sez that journalists have the last word on our language? Lessee...we could start with Daily Mail journalists...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jul 22 - 04:35 PM

If journalists consistently use the word patriotic in a certain way through usage it then has that meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:50 AM

The post of 08.06AM was a response to a post of Bonzo's in the Roe v Wade thread. Sorry for wrongly stating that his post was deleted. The first paragraph of that post DOES belong here. Make me a strong coffee, someone...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:42 AM

Don't be so gratuitously rude. You don't have to agree with what I say but I put considerable thought into these comments. If anyone twitters away round here it isn't me, if you don't mind. By the way, my thoughts are my own and I don't need to keep digging up what journalists think in order to achieve confirmation bias. There's a logical fallacy afoot here somewhere...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 10:33 AM

you can twitter away as much as you like ..but the rest of the jounalistic world is refrring to patriotism, and i have provided examples, all you can do is disagree, without providing back up evidence .
words have meanings dependent on their usage, i have provided examples of how patriotism as a word is consistently used by journalists, you and the gnome remind me of flat earthers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 08:06 AM

The Falklands war had little to do with love of country and everything to do with Thatcher's whipping-up of nationalism of the worst kind, not least because she needed a war to distract from her failings at home, especially with regard to unemployment and inflation. She could have thanked the Falklands dead for her next election victory. Yet another facet of her hateful side.

It's a shame that Bonzo's post about how doggedly human the Supreme Court judges are by referring (in his own sweet way, of course) to their likely shenanigans in their bathtubs, because it had exactly that grain of truth about how their loftiness is false. It reminded me, though admittedly tangentially only, of a piece written by Nicholas Humphrey in 1982, reflecting on Nye Bevan's remark about "not wanting to go naked into the conference chamber." Yertis (as we say in Pastyland):


In 1957 at the Labour Party's debate on disarmament, Aneurin Bevan declared that he was not prepared to 'go naked into the conference chamber'. It is a phrase which has been echoed by Tory and Labour defence spokesmen alike; something similar was said at the Liberal Party conference in September 1981. But what was it that Bevan had to hide? Bevan came into the world naked, and naked he left it. Why should he have been afraid to go naked into the conference chamber to discuss matters of global life and death ? What he had to hide, as much from himself as from his adversaries, was nothing less than his humanity. Of course, by the rules of the game he had to hide it. For no naked human being, conscious of his own essential ordinariness, the chairseat pressing against his buttocks, his toes wriggling beneath the conference table, his penis hanging limply a few feet from Mr Andropov's, could possibly play the game of international politics and barter like a god with the lives of millions of his fellow men. No naked human being could threaten to press the nuclear button. So I come to my proposal. Our leaders must be given no choice but to go naked into the conference chamber. At the United Nations General Assembly, at the Geneva disarmament negotiations, at the next summit in Moscow or in Washington, there shall be a notice pinned to the door: 'Reality gate. Human beings only beyond this point. NO CLOTHES.' And then, as the erstwhile iron maiden takes her place beside the erstwhile bionic commissar, it may dawn on them that neither she nor he is made of iron or steel, but rather of a warmer, softer and much more magical material, flesh and blood. Perhaps as Mr Andropov looks at his navel and realises that he, like the rest of us, was once joined from there to a proud and aching mother, as Mrs Thatcher feels the table-cloth tickling her belly, they will start to laugh at their pretensions to be superhuman rulers of the lives of others. If they do not actually make love they will, at least, barely be capable of making war.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 08:00 AM

Once again, nationalism not patriotism. Good comparison of the two here


I agree with the religion analogy. Religion in itself, like patriotism, is not a bad thing. To say all patriotism is bad is like saying all religion is bad. Neither are. They can both be good but can also be used by radical exremists for nefarious purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 07:50 AM

The strength of Croydon Conservatives shines through with an elected Mayor starting to turn Croydon round after 8 years of a disastrous Labour administration. Never again!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 05:16 AM

Steve another example of mass use of the word patriotism from the guardian 1982,
Patriotism has worked its old magic
Wed 16 Jun 1982 16.07 BST

A thousand dead, terrible wounds; the Union Jack flying again over the Falklands (pop. 1,800); rejoicing and mutual congratulation in the House of Commons; champagne and Rule Britannia in Downing Street - each must draw his or her own balance sheet and historians must decide where to place the Falklands War in the annals of Britain's post-1945 adjustment to her reduced circumstances as a declining power.

Truth is one of the first casualties of peace and, now that it has broken out, we had better be on our guard against disinformation. President Harding was right, although his vocabulary wasn't, when he announced the return to "normalcy".

Things will never be quite the same after Mrs Thatcher's war, but they will be more the same than is apparent on the VF Day.

The Falklands themselves, the prize of the war, will quite quickly retreat down the league table of public concern. For a while they will remain too serious a matter to be left to Sir Bernard Braine but before very long, I would guess, they will revert to their traditional place in British politics, one they have occupied since they were brought briefly to Dr Johnson's attention, that is - out of sight and out of mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:59 AM

So you can exploit people's perfectly rational sense of patriotism to appeal to their base nationalist sentiments. Love turned into hate. Just as you can exploit people's religion, replete with love, forgiveness, charity and a solid moral compass, to get them to fly planes into buildings or strap explosives to themselves. This isn't just nuance, Dick. Patriotism and aggressive nationalism are not two sides of the same coin. One is a vicious perversion of the other. Make the distinction. Dr Johnson lived a long time ago, and shades of meaning can shift. I feel very patriotic about my country, but my brand of patriotism can't be turned into irrational hatred of The Other.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:35 AM

the well known scoundrel horatio bottomley,
held a rally and called it
On 14 January 1915, 6 months into World War I, the Royal Albert Hall played host to the ‘Great Patriotic Rally’ – one of the most memorable public meetings in the venue’s history.

The rally was not only notable due to the huge number of people who attended, but in the way that it captured the feelings and passions of the British public at this particular time in history.

The Great Patriotic Rally was organised by the proprietor of the hugely popular John Bull magazine, Mr Horatio Bottomley: a convicted swindler and disgraced ex-Liberal MP who was forced to resign from his seat after filing for bankruptcy in 1912.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:29 AM

I must dig out my Patriot Missile tshirt - gave a few a good biffing in the Gulf War!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 04:17 AM

It is how a word is used that defines its meaning.
Kitchener asked people to do their PATRIOTIC duty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:55 AM

Dr Johnson imo was right, patriotism has been used to encourage people to fight other people in other countries, it has been used by political establishments to control ordinary people send them off to their death, examples first world war ,napoleon invading Russia.
at the time of the the first world war people were covered with white feathers and humiliated if they did not do their patriotic duty and go off to be slaughtered in the first world war.
Patriotism has been used by ruling classes to divide ordinary people who might otherwise want to change the political system. the powers that be SUCH AS lord Kitchener AND YOUR COUNTY NEEDS YOU. THEY DID NOT APPEAL TO PEOPLE AND SAY BE A NATIONALIST THEY ASKED THEM TO BE PATRIOTS.
so the word patriot was in effect used and is still used to appeal to people to fight other nations FACT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:19 AM

I completely agree, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 09:23 PM

I am embarrassment. Consider my rant suitably modified, please: presumedly Dr Johnson meant tub-thumping rather than conviction when he defined "patriotism".

[crawls under nice damp rock]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:46 PM

Apostrophe terrorism from the spellchecker, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:33 PM

Well I'm a patriot. I love this country, it's natural beauty, its diversity, its democracy (currently under threat, but hey ho). By accident, I was born here and I feel at home here (in spite of Boris Bunter's efforts at exceptionalism). I don't think it's the natural thing to do to swan around all over the world in order to "open one's eyes." Good luck with that. Nothing I've ever adhered to, whether the EU, my trade union or my country, has been perfect. To say the least, never a perfect fit for what might attract my loyalties.

Often confused with patriotism is nationalism. I can support both, but nationalism requires huge scrutiny. Generally, nationalism is far more prone to sprout racism and nationalistic exceptionalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:49 PM

Patriotism is like the barking of village dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:33 PM

Everyone born in England is British. Not everyone born in Great Britain is English. Fact.

Referring to Great Britain as ‘England’, or to all British nationals as ‘English’ displays ignorance, and is incorrect. Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 04:42 PM

> Referring to the British as ‘English’, or to Great Britain as
> ‘England’ is incorrect and ridiculous.

They're actually more correct imho. English patriots* carefully confuse England, Great [sic] Britain, and the United [sic] Kingdom. I'm British by passport, an ex-patriate Lancastrian by adoption, and admit to being English only with deep shame. At least the Welsh and Scots have their own independent senses of identity, and parliaments (however token). Sadly, were we to have a separate English parliament, it'd probably be permanent Tory-blue.

I wish to declare UDI from Planet Westminster.

* "The last refuge of the scoundrel" [Dr Johnson]